Plywood shortage - alternatives?

I never encountered a sheet of homasote. Can that be used as plywood replacement?

Homasote is basically compressed cardboard.  It holds track spikes well, but it does not have much support strength.  It's a good idea to paint it too just to keep it from absorbing moisture.

I've built 3 layouts, I always used homasote on top of plywood.

IF ANYONE INTERESTED & CLOSE TO THE THE NORTHPORT, L.I. AREA

I HAVE SOME 4X8 1/2" & 3/4" PLYWOOD  4X8 BOARDS 1/2 OFF!!!

IN BOX ME IF YOUR INTERESTED......

In one small area of my layout I used L Girder construction, and topped it with 1/4" ply and then 1/2" Homasote. It has supported all 200+ Lbs. of me for over 20 years now whenever I needed to climb up on it.

@TomSuperO posted:

(Am going to use 1/2". Not willing to ck off to 3/4 - using L girder and cookie cutter )     Am having no luck at finding 4x8  5 to 7 ply either birch or maple plywood in the Northern ATL area. All Lowes stores that say they have some in stock - don't.  So question, did find at Lowes a 7ply 1/2" 4x8 blondewood  - primed on one side.  Does anyone have any experience with "blondewood".  I looked it up, can contain various types of wood, typically foreign made, doesn't appear to have voids / hollow spots. Our joists r 12" to 14" apart so not spaning 24".   Really want the 7ply birch; it ain't happening.  Maple - nada. Frustrating.   Did find 1/2" 4x8 homasote at Capitol Materials near Cumming, GA. $64 for a 4x8 sheet. Sheesh

Tom

Try a real lumber yard other than a big box store

@BillYo414 posted:

I never encountered a sheet of homasote. Can that be used as plywood replacement?

Unlike extruded foam, Homasote as no strength

@Dave Koehler posted:

Try a real lumber yard other than a big box store

Jackson, wow, 1/4" and no problems.  interesting.  I'm thinking we're pretty good (safe - non sagging)  w 1/2". I don't want to over engineer this thing -esp at these lumber prices, but don't want to also say shoulda coulda.  I may just go get the blondewood and move fwd.

Dave, Lumber yards were my 1st choice. Called a ton of std lumber yards around here. Nothing. The cupboards are bare. Then deferred to the big box stores. Still nothing.  I might have had a bit more luck back home, but then I'd have to transport it 12 hrs to get it here and if it rains on the way - yikes!!.  I have 3 days to start laying some track or i'm not back till late summer / early fall.

Tom     

Have you thought of 1/2" OSB  covered by 1/2" Homasote? I built 3 layouts using this combination with no problems,  16  to 24 inch centers for the underlying framework.

Tom,  I used 15/32 CDX.  12" OC 1x4 joist.  Topped with Homasote and Foam roadbed.  I'm a 240 lbs piece of meat... I can and do ...walk, crawl and roll around on my layout.

I bought this plywood at my local Home Depot in Tacoma a few weeks ago, for $49. It has gone up nearly $10 in price since then.  I was really pleased with it for an extension to my train layout.  Note that I live in Tacoma, perhaps one of the timber capitals of the world, one-time homes to Weyerhaeuser and Ben Cheney (who invented the 2by4) and also current home to the "American Plywood Association". So, it was somewhat of a surprise that the plywood I purchased was from Ecuador.  That aside, it worked well for me, also appreciate the team at the Home Depot who cut the wood to the dimensions I needed.     

@TomSuperO posted:

Jackson, wow, 1/4" and no problems.  interesting.  I'm thinking we're pretty good (safe - non sagging)  w 1/2". I don't want to over engineer this thing -esp at these lumber prices, but don't want to also say shoulda coulda.  I may just go get the blondewood and move fwd.

Dave, Lumber yards were my 1st choice. Called a ton of std lumber yards around here. Nothing. The cupboards are bare. Then deferred to the big box stores. Still nothing.  I might have had a bit more luck back home, but then I'd have to transport it 12 hrs to get it here and if it rains on the way - yikes!!.  I have 3 days to start laying some track or i'm not back till late summer / early fall.

Tom     

Im guessing it must be regional , from what I have seen here in WI the shelves have been full, no issues getting what I want, from either Menards Home Depot , and the local yards,  I dont see "The Lumber Shortage!"  Touted here , but then again , I live in an area where logging and timber production is the main industry, and with the frost restrictions, coming off the roads. the timber trucks have been back on the roads/    As Far as Prices, its all related to the cost of Fuel  and the effect it has on everything  .

The question is whether you plan on standing on your layout. If not, you can use 1/4" with proper support. Two-inch extruded foam can also be used if you aren't going to stand on it. I was planning on using 3/8" OSB on 16" bracing in 4-foot sections. For the beams, I was looking at using 3/4" PVC "lumber" (after testing its characteristics) since it's dimensionally stable.

@AGHRMatt posted:

The question is whether you plan on standing on your layout. If not, you can use 1/4" with proper support. Two-inch extruded foam can also be used if you aren't going to stand on it. I was planning on using 3/8" OSB on 16" bracing in 4-foot sections. For the beams, I was looking at using 3/4" PVC "lumber" (after testing its characteristics) since it's dimensionally stable.

exactly!

Advantech by Huber industries.  Absolutely the flattest, most moisture resistant 4 X 8' panel available.  Has become one of the most desired subfloor materials in the construction industry.  Solid and heavy, great for sound control.  Can easily span 32" fingers with out longitudinal frame members for model RR's.  I have been using it for many years with out failure.

Be careful not to use their entry level "Blue" product.  It is OK but not the very best.

@Tom Tee posted:

Advantech by Huber industries.  .

Years ago I used 3/4 plywood for my Standard Gauge layout.  Overkill in my opinion.  Being 10 years+ older now, I have no desire to maneuver heavy pieces like that.

Tom, any idea how heavy the pieces of Advantech are?

You certainly don't need birch plywood.  I don't get that, it's a waste of money.  Advantech is a good product indeed for deck plywood in new construction but 3/4" tongue and groove underlayment is way overkill for a toy train layout.  Frank, it's not light, basically an OSB with high tech glue for moisture resistance.  I just sold a job today @ $71.44 a sheet.  I work at a lumberyard, been selling sticks for 35 years.  Homasote is actually quite rigid in itself if you don't have to crawl on it.  If you do, 1/2" CDX Fir with 1/2' Homasote on top is what I have used with success.  Or 1/2" square edge Fir underlayment if you don't want the homasote on top.  Forget the birch plywood and 3/4",  Just my opinion, its a free country last I heard.

Many years ago...after having a 'Contractor's Corner' representative at a well-known local home improvement chain store respond to my 'Do you have...?' inquiry with: "What's Homasote?"...I went to a local lumber mill that has a  100-year history in our city.  They, of course, were well versed in Homasote.  However, there were several caveats to procuring it from them.

First, and most importantly, they do not typically stock it.  The reason is quite simple.  Because it is essentially a 'paper' (cellulose) product, it MUST be stored in a climate-controlled environment.  The call for Homasote is so low, so random, they cannot afford to store a quantity of it in their only relatively small climate-controlled facility.  Which leads to the next most significant problem...

Unless you are ordering a significant quantity of full sheets of Homasote, they cannot meet the minimal quantity requisite from either the manufacturer or the freight shipper.  At that time, anyway, a full stack of Homasote sheets was in a factory-wrapped package, requiring enclosed trailering, which often was not a full-load proposition for a shipper.  Rates were/are accordingly, applied to the per-sheet price, of course.

Then, too, all of the above might result in long lead times to receive an order.  They apparently had developed some information about other regional mills and stores that purveyed Homasote--and similar construction materials having like caveats.  If it was acceptable to you, the buyer, for your minimal quantity of full sheets and timing not being critical, they would inquire of that list of regional suppliers to see if there might be a source within 'reasonable' driving distance...and get back to you...in a few days...hopefully.   Safe transport therefrom would usually be up to the buyer.

And, no returns of full sheets...period.

IOW, to the construction material retailer pro-in-the-know, I got the feeling that, although Homasote is a unique, sometimes useful material (we're NOT talking about being market-limited to model railroad builders/enthusiasts here!) in the trade, it's a bit of a PITA for them to deal in.

Back then, I gave up the idea of using it.  Too much trouble for the expense.  And, besides, I was in 'the dark side' of the HObby.  Noise reduction was actually quite trivial a problem in the scheme of things...IMHO, of course.

Fast forward a bunch of years ...

Well, more recently we have a couple of Menard's outlets locally.  They do, indeed, stock/sell Homasote (Thank you, Mr. John Menard, a model railroad hobbyist!).  Typically sold in half-sheets.  And their stores are adequately climate controlled for proper storage.  Not a national solution for the hobbyist, but a growing regional one.

FWIW and from my own experience.

My contractor for my shop an train room bought me extra Advantech and 2x4’s 10 years ago. As he used the Advantech for all my floors and roof.   My layout is 12x24 and has 2” styrofoam on top. Tung an groove Advantech works well.  I fished my train room walls and then built my layout table a year later.

Mentioned the sheets above just as an alternative to the plywood.  You won’t need a finished ply if you cover it up with styrofoam or homasote just saying.

Good luck to you 😊

Seth

Isn't Advantech just a brand of underlayment?

John

I'd say come on up and find this stash in the development where I live - but over the weekend, someone stole a generator, a trailer and some lumber from the place where this is.

Huh - I see on the company's website it makes railroad ties.

David

Why do you want birch or maple plywood? Those are cabinet grade products.  After you put down your track and scenery,  you won't see any of it. If  you want to save money go for some cheaper grades and use the higher quality stuff for the front aprons.

The last few posts get to the solution of plywood shortage for a train boards.  The bench work  will not be seen and is an excellent spot to use  low grade 1/2 inch plywood, the kind used for roofing and siding in most houses.  Or even better, used plywood from tear downs or remodeling.

I have had a hard time with the emphasis some places put on high grade materials for train boards and prefabbed bench work like Mianne hardwood bench work, but I am practical and frugal.

Charlie

I only use plywood under track everything else gets blue or green ridged foam.

@AGHRMatt posted:

For the beams, I was looking at using 3/4" PVC "lumber" (after testing its characteristics) since it's dimensionally stable.

Gentlemen,  Really enjoyed all the replies and suggestions / experiences.  Let's see:  Correct on the menards up north - they do stock homasote inside;   down south here, finding (while not impossible) is difficult and a bit higher priced - bout $20 more for a 4x8 sheet.  What got me started on the whole birch / maple thing was over the last few yrs while planning this layout, had a number of guys tell me gotta use 7ply or it's gonna sag, etc etc.  So, more plys became an issue for me and led me to hey - birch and maple. Fortunately, i couldn't find them and since i only have a couple more days to work on this layout before i have to head back north, i said screw it and went and got the blondewood at lowes. 1/2" sanded and thin primed,  6 ply - like $59.  I just needed 2 sheets to get started.   Same here - 1x4 joists 12"-14" OC (sometimes closer where needed) cookie cutter construction - 1/2" homasote roadbed (1/2" ply subroad bed).   My opinion is if youre supports are 14"-16" OC, 1/2" plywood - ( 3 ply) or any equivalent will probably work just fine.   Yes, foam board will also be used to create the scenery.  It seems to go well w L-girder - cookie cutter method.  I just want to lay some darn track & i don't think that's gonna happen this trip.  Thanks for all the imput guys.  I think we're gonna be fine with what we're doin. I believe that if it works for you and you haven't had any problems and are happy, that's all that counts. 

Tom

I built my little 5'x9' layout on a very nice, used ping-pong table.  It came in two pieces which can be separated and tilted to a vertical position for storage (which doesn't seem too practical with  the track, buildings, scenery, etc installed).  It has a substantial undercarriage and more legs than your average insect.  The table itself is some sort of very dense hardboard material.  It only set me back $50, and that included the net, paddles and balls, which we gave to the grandkids.  This thing was apparently $500 new.  Anyway, it might be worth it to get one just for the material.

Oh yeah, Yes, we are gonna stand and crawl around on it until most of the scenery gets done. .

Tom

@AFrame posted:

PVC trim such as Azek, Kleer or others are no good for structural support,  even for the loads layouts have.    Although moisture stable they do move with temperature.  A curved fascia would be the mostly likely place where it would be suitable.

The stuff I was looking at was actual dimensional material -- 1x4x96 (.75x3.5x96).  Ron Karlsson used this material for his outdoor layout, cut down into smaller strips to form a ladder-type roadbed. I'm going to get a couple of "boards" for testing.

PVC trim boards have no dimensional stability.  It will sag over time and under weight.  Hence the name trim boards. Use it for facia and you have clear knot free boards that can take paint well .

I love when I hear people saying you need to have 7 ply, that it will 'sag' if you don't, etc. sure, if you took a 4x8 sheet of plywood, put legs on the corners and used that as a train table, it could sage (even 3/4" might unsupported like that). 1/2" plywood will work fine if you build a box frame or L girder or whatnot, and it has support every 24" (I used 16, but my table is relatively small). I agree with others, use whatever is cheapest among the plywood family and you will be fine, after all it is going to be covered after all. Hardwood plywood like birch and maple is designed for cabinets and the like.

Plywood hasn't been a problem around here, other than the fact that the price is still crazy high and prob going higher (fortunately I don't need to buy any).

A lot of different grades/products available.  One side finished would work well for a train table.  With a 16" on Center support system,  1/2", or what ever, is the closest equivalent would work.  Assume your layout requires (3) 4'X8' sheets.  $200+. Framing material/lumber ?? $300.  Have fun. 

@William 1 posted:

You certainly don't need birch plywood.  I don't get that, it's a waste of money.

You don't "need" it, that's for certain.  OTOH, three years ago when I bought the plywood for my benchwork, the 1/2" Baltic Birch sheets at a plywood specialty yard were almost the same price per sq/ft as the standard sandy-ply at the local Home Depot, so it was an easy decision.  The 11 ply Baltic Birch has great dimensional rigidity, and was a pleasure to work with.

@Mike CT posted:

A lot of different grades/products available.  One side finished would work well for a train table.  With a 16" on Center support system,  1/2", or what ever, is the closest equivalent would work.  Assume your layout requires (3) 4'X8' sheets.  $200+. Framing material/lumber ?? $300.  Have fun. 

A lot of it also depends what will be on the table. 16" centers with half inch plywood is the standard for floor sub flooring. Unless someone is planning to stand on the layout a lot, or have incredibly heavy things on it, in that case you could prob use 24" centers and not have issues with sagging for example (if your layout has huge mountains with a lot of hydrocal, then maybe, but for most scenery and trackwork the load just isn't that large.

IMO, over 90% of home layouts are way overbuilt, and that probably includes mine.  Even 1/2" ply is overkill if it's being topped with homasote or foam.

OTOH, lumber is a one-time expense.  On a large layout, the current high prices add about the cost of a new locomotive.

The difference between the Baltic Birch and basic HD plywood was less than $100 when I bought it.  IMO, 1/2" plywood is certainly not overkill with Homasote, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

If the frame work on the table is built correctly, 1/4 Luann plywood will work just fine. I built a 5 x 13 layout with it on top of Myannie frame, and did not cover it with Homasote or foam board.  And never had a problem  The layout had plenty of plaster and two main lines and lots of structures and accessories..

3" Foam Insulation held in place by a grid of Furring Strips or a grid of 1" x 2" wood strips. 

Andrew

@Quarter Gauger 48 posted:

If the frame work on the table is built correctly, 1/4 Luann plywood will work just fine. I built a 5 x 13 layout with it on top of Myannie frame, and did not cover it with Homasote or foam board.  And never had a problem  The layout had plenty of plaster and two main lines and lots of structures and accessories..

I have to stand on mine at times to reach everything, I'd feel a little endangered standing on 1/4" Lauan plywood on 24" centers.  I think I'll pass on that idea.

Average diesel engine goes a few hundred thousand pounds, 1/48th of that x 6 engines - hmm - think i'll ad add a few more 2x4's and drive the jeep on top of it tomorrow.  I should be good.

Tom

I never stood on my previous layout and I don't plan on standing on my future one either.

Has anyone ever had one collapse because of weight?  Or issues with warpage?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have to stand on mine at times to reach everything, I'd feel a little endangered standing on 1/4" Lauan plywood on 24" centers.  I think I'll pass on that idea.

John, You miss the point.  I never stood on my layout of 5 X 13. The Luan is referenced as an alternative to higher priced materials.  I've seen your new layout.  I don't know why you or anyone would need to stand on smaller layouts?... The warehouse sized, well, I think that is a different story'....

True Ted, if you don't plan on putting weight on it, the 1/4" would certainly support anything you might put on a model RR.  OTOH, the other issue is the possibility of the 1/4" plywood warping.

I agree with John. If it’s up for an extended period I think you’ll notice a bend in 1/4 inch for most layouts. It might be awhile but you’ll notice it.

@texgeekboy posted:

I agree with John. If it’s up for an extended period I think you’ll notice a bend in 1/4 inch for most layouts. It might be awhile but you’ll notice it.

no, like any thing, made from wood, its how its supported, and assembled (glue, screws, ect) For the last 60 plus years there have been countless publications, and articles On how to frame and build a model rail road with out raising  a floor op to waist level ,and strong enough  so 12 guys can walk on it.

@Frank Mulligan posted:

I never stood on my previous layout and I don't plan on standing on my future one either.

Has anyone ever had one collapse because of weight?  Or issues with warpage?

Falling no. Warpage yes. I had 28 feet of table built. It bowed, warped and twisted after it was built. It was not usable so I took it all apart and scrapped it.

I've had plywood bow after I cut it into 4" wide strips.  I started using red oak 1x4's and have a couple of 4x8 tables built. But my saw mill guy passed away and the kid's closed it down. No more red oak anywhere around here. Oh I did have a 4x8 sheet of plywood bow something fierce.

I've seen a lot of warped plywood in a host of applications, so it does certainly happen.  In any case, the difference in price from the plywood to the really nice Baltic Birch at the time was minimal, so I went with the really nice wood.

Hello!

Go to Lowes or HD and buy their APA exterior grade (green stripes painted on end) 1/2 inch plywood.  (Not the interior grade junk with black stripes painted on the end.)   Look on the underside of the sheets, and they will be stamped with a black APA Approval  Stamp, stating that it is Grade 1 Exterior. This will cost you about $60 to $70 per sheet.

I'm not talking about "treated" green plywood, but the plywood which uses waterproof glue between the layers, so it can take lots of direct water and damage for months before it fails.

The exterior grade is rated BC, with a nice filled and sanded B side up, and a good grade C on the bottom with no voids from fallen knots.   If you want it to have an A side up, then buy a small palm orbital sander, and in about 45 minutes, you can sand it to an A looking side.

Assuming that your joists are strong enough, you can glue and screw this plywood down on them (using Loctite PL8x construction adhesive), and it will be incredibly strong.  You will be able to walk on it with almost no flex.    I am not sure why you are concerned about voids in the middle of the layers, since  you are going to use a screw or nail to hold track and accessories down on the table and the plywood is 4 layers thick.   If you want the top to be even stiffer, then spend an exrta few bucks and get the 5/8ths plywood, which HD generally carries but not Lowes.   

CDX is absolutely the worst plywood you can buy for construction,  and has a C side up and a really terrible D side on the bottom full of holes where the knots have fallen out.  It is only used by contractors who want to build roofs with the cheapest junk available that meets the minimum building code standards.  Walk on the roof of a "modern" house build with a CDX roof (which sadly today is 95% of new houses.)  It bouncec like a trampoline.   It sags in the middle of the rafters and creates  low "channels" or valleys between all of the rafters.  Drive down the street of any modern subdivision after it is 5 years old, and you will actually see all of the vertical channels (they look like long gray shadows.)  The older the houses get, the deeper the channels get.

I understand that people like birch plywood, without voids, but unless you are building cabinetry or just don't want to see the occasional gap in the side edges of the plywood where a small interior void is present, I'm afraid I don't see the point for a train table top.  I am always looking to learn though, so if there are any substantial reasons why the birch would be better, I would like to hear about them.

If you paint the top and edges of the BC exterior plywood with a good grade primer before you glue and screw it down, and then go under the table and prime the areas between your joists, the BC plywood is extremely stable and any expansion or contraction will be almost imperceptible.

Hope this helps.

Mannyrock

P.S.- As for plywood "bowing".

The inside of Lowes and HD are extremely dry, and the stacks of plywood are extremely dry.  Consequently, when you bring a sheet home a place it in any environment where the moisture is higher than the store, the wood will absorb it and the sheet will start to bow, almost overnight.  After 3 or 4 days, forget it, it is ruined!

So, when you bring it home, take it to the driest room of your house, lay it flat with the good side down, and weigh the entire sheet down, particularly the middle and on the ends.   I have several heavy tool boxes, so that is what I use.

The weight will minimize or prevent the sheet from bowing.

Cut and prime the plywood on the same day you bring it home, and glue and screw it down on the table by the end of the following day. If there is minor by this day, then weigh it down flat on the framework once you have the glue on the joists.   After you glue and screw it, those bows will be gone forever.  Prime the underside by the end of the second day.

Your table will not bow after that.

I am very lucky that I have an extremely dry basement, which I keep at around 35% humidity with my dehumidifier.  But even at that, new plywood and timber will start to bow down there if I don't weigh it down immediately.

Plywood can be pretty unforgiving.  I have learned  the hard way that you can't cut it into strips and leave it for couple of days.  It will bow in the extreme and you have to trash it.

Again, I hope this helps.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

I understand that people like birch plywood, without voids, but unless you are building cabinetry or just don't want to see the occasional gap in the side edges of the plywood where a small interior void is present, I'm afraid I don't see the point for a train table top.  I am always looking to learn though, so if there are any substantial reasons why the birch would be better, I would like to hear about them.

Thanks for making my case for using the Baltic Birch.   I had the wood in my basement simply laying flat on the floor for months before I started using it.  Absolutely no bowing or other deformity was observed when building the layout, the birch sheets were as flat as the day they were manufactured.

If you're looking for my justification for using it, simply read your last couple of posts.  I didn't have to deal with any of those issues, and the material is a pleasure to work with.  Dimensionally, it's far more stable than regular pine plywood, and the difference in price between this and standard plywood for my 12 x 24 layout was less than $100.

Obviously, you can build a layout any number of ways, but I've worked with standard plywood a lot on a variety of projects, and when Baltic Birch was recommended, I decided to try it.  If I were to build another layout, I'd be using it again.

@TomSuperO posted:

(Am going to use 1/2". Not willing to ck off to 3/4 - using L girder and cookie cutter )     Am having no luck at finding 4x8  5 to 7 ply either birch or maple plywood in the Northern ATL area. All Lowes stores that say they have some in stock - don't.  So question, did find at Lowes a 7ply 1/2" 4x8 blondewood  - primed on one side.  Does anyone have any experience with "blondewood".  I looked it up, can contain various types of wood, typically foreign made, doesn't appear to have voids / hollow spots. Our joists r 12" to 14" apart so not spaning 24".   Really want the 7ply birch; it ain't happening.  Maple - nada. Frustrating.   Did find 1/2" 4x8 homasote at Capitol Materials near Cumming, GA. $64 for a 4x8 sheet. Sheesh

Tom

How about particle board, very strong and is made of pieces of wood glued together under high pressure.

@ThatGuy posted:

How about particle board, very strong and is made of pieces of wood glued together under high pressure.

IMO particle board is a terrible base!  If you think plywood might warp, wait until you see what happens to particle board!  A very long time ago(50+ years), I made some shelves using particle board.  Even though they were supported quite well, the particle board bowed between the supports, and in addition after a few years it absorbed moisture and start flaking at the edges.  Yes, they were painted with a couple of coats of paint, that didn't make any difference!  IMO, that's likely the worst possible choice for a layout base!

Oh, and it's really not that strong, I can take an 8" wide piece of 1/2" particle board and break it by hand quite easily, try that with an 8" piece of plywood!

Thanks as always for your input John. 

If somebody can't schedule things so that they cut and mount their table top in one or two days, or they are building ramp and grade sections, which take a lot of time, then Birch is definitely the way to go!

It makes zero sense for folks to plan on building a layout, and devoting several hundreds or thousands of dollars to it over several years, to try to "go cheap" and save $50 on the most important structural feature, being the table top.  :-)

And, particle board is definitely not the way to go.  If it ever gets wet, it likes to promptly blister and dissolve.

Mannyrock

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

IMO particle board is a terrible base!  If you think plywood might warp, wait until you see what happens to particle board!  A very long time ago(50+ years), I made some shelves using particle board.  Even though they were supported quite well, the particle board bowed between the supports, and in addition after a few years it absorbed moisture and start flaking at the edges.  Yes, they were painted with a couple of coats of paint, that didn't make any difference!  IMO, that's likely the worst possible choice for a layout base!

Oh, and it's really not that strong, I can take an 8" wide piece of 1/2" particle board and break it by hand quite easily, try that with an 8" piece of plywood!

Where do you get your information? Particle board is used in mission critical construction all the time. The boards are fine like anything if you use it wrong it will fail.

The greatest benefit of using particleboard is its greater dimensional stability. As a result, it won’t lose shape due to temperature fluctuations and other similar environmental changes. Besides, particle boards don’t have any natural defects. Therefore, they provide adequate thermal and sound resistance.

Affordability

Particleboard is considerably more affordable than both plywood and solid wood. When undertaking a project that requires hundreds of sheets, particle boards will save you a lot of money. You can save up to 12% of your budget when installing kitchen cabinets, for instance.

Lightweight

Although particle boards are dense, they are incredibly lightweight. This makes transportation and handling relatively easy. It’s common to come across people who consider density a key consideration when purchasing wood.

However, it’s best to keep in mind that the denser a carpentry material is, the harder it is to work with. The denser wood is certainly heavier and more difficult to work with. The particleboard is strong but incredibly lightweight, which means it’s easy to move it to and from and around the job site,

Easy to Hold Nails

Particleboard has a higher capacity to hold nails and screws compared to MDF and plywood. As a result, it won’t crack or break when you drive nails or screws into it. Besides, the nails and screws will stay in place without moving, thanks to the dense composition of the boards. Furthermore, cutting, drilling, milling, gluing, and painting particle boards is easy.

Eco-Friendliness

Particle board is typically made from wood scraps, shavings, bagasse, and sawdust, which are considered waste. Most manufacturers make particleboard from leftovers that would otherwise be an environmental hazard.

Therefore, there’s little waste when manufacturing particle boards. Besides, extra logging needs to be done to produce particle boards. Some manufacturers even produce particleboards without using formaldehyde, which minimizes their environmental impact all the more.

Ease of Lamination

Particle wood provides a flat and smooth surface to work with. It’s easier to stick wood veneer or decorative laminates on particle boards to add beauty and even more aesthetic value to your project.

Cons of Particle Board

The biggest drawback of particleboard is that, despite its considerable strength, it can’t support heavy loads. Therefore, it may not be suitable for use in places such as kitchen countertops. Furthermore, continuous exposure to moisture and humidity will cause the boards to warp.

When compared to fiberboard or even some types of plywood, particleboard is low in strength. This means it’s more susceptible to damage when handling. It also limits the application of particle boards to only specific projects.

so you can see properly supported with framing and it will be fine.

@ThatGuy posted:

Where do you get your information? Particle board is used in mission critical construction all the time. The boards are fine like anything if you use it wrong it will fail.

The greatest benefit of using particleboard is its greater dimensional stability. As a result, it won’t lose shape due to temperature fluctuations and other similar environmental changes. Besides, particle boards don’t have any natural defects. Therefore, they provide adequate thermal and sound resistance.

Believe what you like.  IMO, particle board is a lousy base for a layout, and I'll keep saying that until my dying breath! What "mission critical" applications are we talking about, the Space Shuttle?

• Particle board has low strength as compared to other fiberboards. It has low density so it can be easily damaged while transportation.
• In presence of moisture, particle board expands and warps. Also in extreme conditions discolouration can occur.
• As it has low strength and gets damaged in presence of moisture, particle boards have low durability and less life as compared to medium density fiberboard and plywood.
• It cannot support heavy loads as it is weak in strength.
• Particle boards can be toxic, as they are manufactured using urea formaldehyde resin which is the source of formaldehyde gas. Even after years of installation, the resin can break down and release formaldehyde gas, which carcinogenic for humans i.e. causing cancer.

I don't even see particle board around anymore.  I see MDF and I hear plenty of people mistakenly call MDF "particle board".   MDF is pretty stable.  Maybe the two are being conflated?

John

It's not fair to generalize something to death.

MDF and particle board are not the same.  Not even close.  Particle board got it's bad name starting 50 years ago for good reasons.  GRJ has mentioned a few, including sagging and water sensitivity.

MDF's close cousin, MDO, or Medium Density Overlay, which has an MDF core and a tough paper overlay, is used extensively by state highway departments for road signs.  It paints nicely and holds up very well under adverse weather conditions, so water isn't a problem.

MDF can sag over long distances, but nowhere near as much as particle board.  With structure underneath on 16" centers it will be fine.

Neither particle board nor MDF are currently made with formaldehyde.  It was phased out at least 10 years ago after it was discovered to be a problem in sprayed-in insulation.

Like the baltic birch MDF machines very nicely, with sharp edges, perfectly flat surfaces, and with one advantage over birch-- the ability to accept very small details, via router, carving tool, or small saw.

John, the bookshelf in your photo needs to be made out of MDF, and supported underneath it's front edge by an MDF stringer (1x2 dimensional, or 3/4" x 1-1/2" actual) with it's wider dimension oriented up and down.  Do that and it won't sag.

I've used MDF extensively without any issues.  You can have zero problems with it too, as long as you use a little common sense.  (Contrast this with particle board, which nothing can save). 

Mike

@Craftech posted:

I don't even see particle board around anymore.  I see MDF and I hear plenty of people mistakenly call MDF "particle board".   MDF is pretty stable.  Maybe the two are being conflated?

John

Still piles of it available at the big box home supply stores, it's around.  I wasn't conflating anything, I do know the difference between MDF and particle board.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Still piles of it available at the big box home supply stores, it's around.  I wasn't conflating anything, I do know the difference between MDF and particle board.

Didn't mean you were.  I thought maybe ThatGuy might have been.  And if he wasn't my apologies. 

John

@Craftech posted:

Didn't mean you were.  I thought maybe ThatGuy might have been.  And if he wasn't my apologies. 

John

While MDF and particleboard are different the trade name when making a purchase is still particleboard. It is used extensively in construction especially new construction for flooring base roof underlayment and anywhere plywood has been used in the past. The largest manufacturer Weyerhaeuser, calls MDF particleboard you can order it either way it is cheaper and just as Durable as plywood as long as it is properly supported and we can make an assumption that your layout is not going to be out in the rain you could also get MDF/particleboard water resistant I believe the color is blue. Of course I am not an expert on everything like some people on this Forum, I have just built well over 200 homes as a major contractor and went back to school and received my PE in engineering.

No offense intended, but you are totally wrong.  What you are thinking of is OSB - oriented strand board.  Particle board is used for things like cabinets, certainly not roof or floor sheathing.  Go back to school maybe.  If you’ve been using particle board for roof sheathing I hope you have a good lawyer, cuz you’re going to have issues.

Just use anything, it’s a toy train layout for goodness sakes.  By the time you are thru debating this you could have been working on scenery by now.  The prices aren’t going down anytime soon, I get market reports twice a week on all the lumber products.  So just buy whatever and build a layout already.

@William 1 posted:

No offense intended, but you are totally wrong.  What you are thinking of is OSB - oriented strand board.  Particle board is used for things like cabinets, certainly not roof or floor sheathing.  Go back to school maybe.

Just use anything, it’s a toy train layout for goodness sakes.  By the time you are thru debating this you could have been working on scenery by then.  The prices aren’t going down anytime soon, I get market reports twice a week on all the lumber products.  So just buy whatever and build a layout.

I have never seen a place like this osb is perfected mdf is also used and is called PB. But who am I just a guy who built commercially and followed all the codes, this started with an expert telling him only use plywood, after he said he was having trouble getting it. This reminds me of another expert telling me PENN Central engines are black……..uhhhhhhhhhhhhh nope.

Never thought I'd see the day when a sheet of plywood, or particle board, or whatever, would have us arguing like it was politics or religion.  I am thinking this forum would be a lot more fun if we went on to some other topic.

Thank you.

Papa Dave,

Don't bother.  There will be arguments on that topic too, whatever it is.

Thanks for trying though ...

Mike

If the Original OP is still around... and, if you still can't find Homasote look for 'Sound Board' it has the exact same cellulose fiber construction as Homasote with a water resistant coating (it's black in color).  I used it because it's readily available here in the south and it was 12.95 for a 4x8 sheet at Lowe's.  It was in stock today.

Here is what it looks like...

OSB can be very strong to be sure, but if it gets damp or wet, it will blister, disintegrate and fail very quickly

Just finished a lengthy repair on an OSB floor.  The owner had a window with a very slight leak.  The water come in, went down inside the studs to the bottom plate, and from there under his vinyl snap together floor on to the OSB subfloor.

Not only was his floor "soft" but the exterior stud wall, supported by on the OSB, started sinking/slanting/falling inward, about 1/2 inch, as the OSB failed.

When I opened it all up, the 3/4" OSB was black, and I could push my finger through it.  Easy to pull up big chunks with my hands.

Bottom Line:  OSB would probably be OK as a layout table top, as long as you don't let it get damp or suffer any water spill.   (Basements are full of overhead pipes, and some folks have windows near their layouts.)

Clean both sides lightly with mineral spirits, and paint both sides with primer and it should be fine.

No, OSB is not as good as plywood.  That's why it only costs about 30% as much as plywood.

Every floor I repair or rebuild, I use the 3/4 inch exterior grade plywood.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

Every floor I repair or rebuild, I use the 3/4 inch exterior grade plywood.

Ask any flooring contractor how much particle board they use for underlayment.   Hint, unless they're a fly-by-night contractor, the answer should be zero.

@Papa Dave posted:

Never thought I'd see the day when a sheet of plywood, or particle board, or whatever, would have us arguing like it was politics or religion.  I am thinking this forum would be a lot more fun if we went on to some other topic.

Thank you.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Papa Dave,

Don't bother.  There will be arguments on that topic too, whatever it is.

Thanks for trying though ...

Mike

Red Green is on it...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEnBYTI8TE8

FYI

Mianne Customizable Benchwork’s I-Beams are made of MDF boards with edge caps & end caps made of poplar wood.  Mianne customers on this forum highly praise the stability & strength of the Mianne I-Beams.

I am building a layout with LCCA Lionel FasTrack module kits supported by Mianne poplar 48” legs and lower Mianne I-beams.  

As recommended by LCCA, I am using 1/2 “ birch veneer plywood for the module tops.  

To kitbash this system further, I have ordered Ross 29” straight, O-72, & O-84 track sections.  Based on various threads on OGR Forum, Ross track & curve system is praised as one of the most reliable O-gauge track systems.

With the proper base, you can pretty much top it with anything.

Well I've had a 12 foot section 30 inches wide of particleboard for over 20 years in a damp basement,  solid and flat as the day it was brought home.  Given the plywood issues it may be part of my expansion since it has worked quite well.  We are building layout bases, not custom furniture for the rich and famous,  function trumps esthetics.

@Mannyrock posted:

P.S.- As for plywood "bowing".

The inside of Lowes and HD are extremely dry, and the stacks of plywood are extremely dry.  Consequently, when you bring a sheet home a place it in any environment where the moisture is higher than the store, the wood will absorb it and the sheet will start to bow, almost overnight.  After 3 or 4 days, forget it, it is ruined!

So, when you bring it home, take it to the driest room of your house, lay it flat with the good side down, and weigh the entire sheet down, particularly the middle and on the ends.   I have several heavy tool boxes, so that is what I use.

The weight will minimize or prevent the sheet from bowing.

Cut and prime the plywood on the same day you bring it home, and glue and screw it down on the table by the end of the following day. If there is minor by this day, then weigh it down flat on the framework once you have the glue on the joists.   After you glue and screw it, those bows will be gone forever.  Prime the underside by the end of the second day.

Your table will not bow after that.

I am very lucky that I have an extremely dry basement, which I keep at around 35% humidity with my dehumidifier.  But even at that, new plywood and timber will start to bow down there if I don't weigh it down immediately.

Plywood can be pretty unforgiving.  I have learned  the hard way that you can't cut it into strips and leave it for couple of days.  It will bow in the extreme and you have to trash it.

Again, I hope this helps.

Mannyrock

This stuff bowed immediately after I cut it into strips. A C was the grade I bought from a lumber yard.

Apply 2 thin coats of primer paint to all sides of the particle board before using it for a model railroad project.

Then apply the cover coats.

Andrew

Gunrunnerjohn, what you call particle board has changed dramatically since the 50 years ago when you used it, yes it was crap back then.  Now it is dimensionally stable and some brands  are water proof, being able to be immersed and when dried out still have their integrity.  Any board made into a shelf as you describe will sag and warp without proper supports for the material being used.  I would not hesitate to use the new stuff, but I have used 3/8 plywood over 12 inch square open grid  openings with the 1X4 stringer assembled in interlocking fashion for a table top forever, with no issues.

@CBQ_Bill posted:

Mianne Customizable Benchwork’s I-Beams are made of MDF boards with edge caps & end caps made of poplar wood.  Mianne customers on this forum highly praise the stability & strength of the Mianne I-Beams.

For your own personal amusement, ask Tim at Mianne if he would recommend particle board for finishing the Mianne benchwork.  I can take a Mianne I-Beam and break it over my knee pretty easily, try that with a similar sized piece of 1/2" plywood!  FWIW, I can also easily break a 1/2" particle board of that size over my knee as well.

FWIW, the Mianne I-Beam depends on the lateral strength of a piece of MTF, not it's resistance to sagging when laying flat.  This is the same as any other composite engineered wood I-beam.  It's the axis the force is applied that makes all the difference.  Note that they use OSB in these as I suspect it has greater lateral strength.

When I ran HO, I built 1x3 grid on 20” centers and put 1” Dow Foam as the base…my 12 year old son who forgot his key, had to crawl through the basement window and walk across 6’ to open the door-it held him.

Now that I run O, and it’s a shelf layout, I started with 1/2”, but ended up with 3/8”….the O-54 reverse loop has 1x3 grid on 20” centers, and I put all of my 265# on it to relocate a turnout.

https://youtu.be/2h7qnY_SUbE

I have areas where the weight of the Engine and the cars cause the plywood to flex…doesn’t bother me.
Adds realism.

And I see anything-wood, brackets, wire, screws, as money spent not on trains or track-and I minimize that expense all day long.
And if I’m so lucky as to add “scenery” to my road-it will be pictures and snow.  
Because when I watch real trains, I don’t notice trees or track😁

But that’s the great thing about this hobby-nothing is truly wrong…as long as the trains are running and staying on the track, it’s all right😁

The MISC

The Manchester Intermodal Service Center

https://youtu.be/5jvSbPNvG70

And I need to make a newer video😁

Well...you guys arguing over particle board/MDF/plywood...what you need is a common enemy to argue against...you know--something that all of you think is bad.  Maybe I can supply the common enemy.

My 16x17 layout, up for about 2 years now is made of sandwiches of 2 inch foam and 1/8 inch plywood. In some places, I used 3/8 inch plywood if the sandwich got thick and seemed to need extra support.

All the foam/ply sandwiches are glued together using liquid nails or similar standard foam adhesive. Risers to lift track up for hills and such are made of 2 inch foam which is gorilla-glued to the sandwich. The layout only has 2 flat parts--the engine terminal and the yard. All the rest is hills and valleys and bridges and tunnels. So the track is almost always up on foam risers.

On top of the risers is a sandwich of 1 inch foam, 1/8 inch plywood and Midwest cork topped by Gargraves track.  Sometimes clearances did not permit the 1 inch foam so in places the track sandwich is just the 1/8 inch plywood and the cork.

My basement is not wet--it is VERY wet. So far, I have had zero problems with warpage. I surveyed the net and it appears that testing had shown extruded polystyrene foams (XPS) to be resistant to humidity changes. Here's one: "Results indicate that humidity levels [do not] play a significant role in XPS performance." (from "Experimental study on the effects of humidity and temperature on aerogel composite and foam insulations" by Jedediah B. Alveya, Jignesh Patela and Larry .D. Stephenson)

Anyway, bottom line is that some kind of foam/luan/cork sandwich should be included in the argument. I'm no good with wood (some of you guys are woodwork artists and don't even know it!) which is why I went with foam. But in the end, it has had many advantages and no disadvantages for me. YMMV. Pix below.

BTW, when I started this, the foam was much cheaper than plywood. Last time I went back for more foam, foam prices had doubled! That's not inflation--that's robbery.

Don Merz

Wow Feet, thanks for that information.  I've never had strips of plywood bow immediately after buying it, but I can tell you what may have happened.   

I should have mentioned in my prior posts, that I never buy the top sheet of plywood in a stack.  I always buy the 3rd or 4th sheet down.  This true even if I buy it at a lumberyard.

If that sheet of plywood was on the top of the stack in a lumberyard for a few days, then the top of the sheet itself dried much more than the bottom of the sheet.    Consequently, the top of the sheet was trying to contract, while the bottom of the sheet was trying to expand.   So, the sheet itself was under internal tension and wanted to snap and bow like a mousetrap, but the tension was not yet powerful enough to lift up the entire 50 pound weight of the sheet.   (A few days later, it would have).

When you brought it home, and cut it into strips, especially if you cut them long-wise with the grain of the top, then they would immediately bow because the weight of the strips was much much less.

So, perhaps this is what happened in your case.

In line with this, I also should have mentioned earlier that you should never ever set a piece of plywood so that sun is shining on it, even if it is in the basement.   The sun will dry out the top and the brand new sheet will bow up in a matter of hours!

Gunrunner:  About 20 years ago, they started making 3/4 inch sheets of OSB subflooring, with tongue and groove sides, specifically for building house floors.  It was a cheap substitute for the standard "Sturdi-Floor" 3/4 inch plywood that is tongue and groove, and yes, it costs only about 30% as much.

This cheap flooring has been used widely in new houses here in Virginia for 20 years, especially in really big expensive homes that will have lots and lots of flooring space, even in kitchens where water spills are fully expected.   Again, contractors use the cheapest junk they can get by with. It is so bad now, that when you tell them you want the expensive stuff, they don't even know where to buy it!   If I use a contractor or subcontractor for any work at my own house, I order all of the materials in advance and have it sitting there ready to go. I also immediately fire the person if I catch them taking any shortcuts or trying to cover something up.

Back to train tables:   Plywood is great if you treat it like the clock is ticking and it will turn into a pumpkin at midnight!

Mannyrock

@third rail posted:

Why do you want birch or maple plywood? Those are cabinet grade products.  After you put down your track and scenery,  you won't see any of it. If  you want to save money go for some cheaper grades and use the higher quality stuff for the front aprons.

While I mostly agree, birch and maple are a little bit more moisture resistant, and less prone warping.

OK TomSuperO,

        Having read all of the foregoing, you can either spend the next two to three weeks trying to find the superior sheets of Baltic Birch, or you can go to Lowes this morning, buy the plywood and adhesive I have recommended, plus Kilz II Primer, plus a box of 2.5 inch PowerPro #9 self driving screw, and be totally finished with installing your layout top by this evening.  :-)

      If you choose the second route, then be sure to have somewhat help you lift up the sheet and carefully and lightly set it down in place on the adhesive squirted joists, because the adhesive has almost instant grab, and in about 10 seconds, you will never be able to shift it.   Make sure you have a heavy hammer at hand to quickly tap it for finally adjustments, and don't push down on the sheet until it is exactly in place. Have a clean rag, wet with Jasco's Mineral Spirits, standing by to quickly wipe off any excess adhesive on the sides.  And for gosh sakes, make sure you have the basement door and windows open, because the adhesive and mineral spirits fumes are very strong.      But, they will disappear in about an hour.

Mannyrock

I use 1/2" (15/32") plywood underlayment in fir only.  Many years ago, the product was referred to as PTS for "plugged, touched, and sanded. or "Underlayment C." A couple of the higher quality lumber yards in my area usually carry it.  It's stable and should be fine for 24"  OC as someone mentioned above.  For those standing on the table, I suppose weight load plays a role  I'm waiting for the price to come down before I buy another four sheets for the addition to start hopefully this coming winter...my usage of this product is personal preference only.  CDX or even OSB (waferboard) should do the trick also...

It appears that we've collectively concluded that there are two choices here, Baltic birch or B-C.

Unfortunately, following the this thread from the beginning, there have been many more  suggestions that are at least worth considering.

As with most everything though, on this fine forum and in our hobby in general, there's clearly no concensus.

What I saw here was an initial question about what to use, or at least consider, in place of pricey plywood.

And in the end the answer turns out to be nothing -- suck it up and spend the money on the plywood or you'll have dire consequences.

I feel sorry for newbies in the future who end up stumbling across this thread.  Despite the best of intents it looks like we have generated more confusion than substance.

How does this happen?  And apparently so often?

Mike

Of all the sheet products I can think of with reasonable structural value and moisture stability used in typical basement areas, plywood or OSB (waferboard) come to mind. Foam products, gypsum products, hardboard products, or other building materials available in sheets, offer little or no structural value.  It's plywood or OSB (cheaper) that take the prize.  Sorry to say that prices are up across the board on building products, but they will come down substantially, in my view, when the supply situation adjusts to normal production levels.  I recall other times in our economy when prices dropped like a rock, but yes, this time the situation is somewhat different because of lock-downs.  Most commodity plywood sold in the USA is manufactured domestically and not subject to offshore whims and container issues.

Other wood alternatives are  lower grade 1 x 6 or 1 x 8 pine boards...my first layout had them exclusively with no issue at 24" OC.   This inflation thing is a real problem, but I'm waiting it out to buy my preference...   It seems in most cases on the forum, contributors express their good will views for a reason, and  I believe most of us have benefited by the wide variety of comments and opinions.  I recall being a "newbie" here several years ago and I credit this forum for the majority of my knowledge in building my initial layout, especially, and even more so now on my second layout..

Mello Mike,

    Personally, as a newbie on certain topics, I love reading threads with many many points of view.  The reason is that depending on the circumstances of the project, such as size, weight, heat, light, moisture, expense, and product availability, there is not really a perfect solution that will fit each and every situation.

  Plus, by hearing all of the different solutions and supporting arguments, I learn a lot from you guys!

Thanks,

Mannyrock

This thread is motivating me to lose weight. 

John

I started a similar fire on another thread referring to this discussion. After analyzing all the opinions, I'm going with 1/2" Baltic Birch under Homasote. Please- no cautions or lectures otherwise; that is the way it will be. There is a local plywood supplier here that has what I need for the usual crazy price, and it is what it is, period, dot. Thanks again, GRJ!

Very wise decision 452Card.  I am a Journeyman carpenter who has been building custom cabinets for 44 years. There are so many variables in each application that it is best to err on the side of caution. The size of the layout, the humidity and above all the materials used in the structure that the plywood will be fastened to are all factors that affect the movement. The most stable sheeting will be apple ply and then Baltic birch but MDO with the overlay on two sides is very good also. O gauge is a very forgiving scale and as so we can get away with inferior materials that smaller scales would not accept.  One suggestion though is to use the same materials for the superstructure that you use for the decking, that way expansion and contraction is consistent throughout the layout if the humidity is not stable.      Some of us look at our benchwork as cabinetry and some just want to run trains.  No right or wrong, just whatever makes you happy.  

Keith-

I am very fortunate to have a climate-controlled second floor room for the layout, so humidity is not much of a factor in my decision for the material. Also, because the benchwork is Mianne I don't have to be concerned with sagging between girders. My main concern is noise abatement.

Keith kOGR Forum Member  said.

Some of us look at our benchwork as cabinetry and some just want to run trains.  No right or wrong, just whatever makes you happy.

@452 Card posted:

I am very fortunate to have a climate-controlled second floor room for the layout, so humidity is not much of a factor in my decision for the material. Also, because the benchwork is Mianne I don't have to be concerned with sagging between girders. My main concern is noise abatement.

I'm curious why you think that Mianne benchwork makes you immune to sagging benchtop material?

How much sagging, if any, can occur with BB over 2x2' squares? I think none. The worst risk is the 2x3 sections in the middle. Again- this layout is in a climate controlled room. I plan to attach the base material using steel L-brackets. so the assembly should be as a unit that will not sag. What is your benchwork?

Sealing the top and bottom of the plywood with paint will reduce moisture pick up and reduce or eliminate warping.  Oil based paint will do a better job sealing the wood from moisture.  Kilz primer works well.

Charlie

452 Card.   If your main concern is noise, the homasote will make a huge difference. Then when you are done with the wiring, purchase a roll of convoluted acoustic foam. Fasten to the underside with pushpins and your layout will be whisper quiet, remember to face the convoluted side up.   The majority of the sound is created inside the benchwork just like an acoustic guitar. The foam will absorb the sound like a sponge to water. If you need to get to the wiring, just pull the pushpins and fold the foam out of the way.   In a controlled environment I have never had to seal anything and if stored properly I have yet to see  Baltic birch warp EVER.  

@452 Card posted:

How much sagging, if any, can occur with BB over 2x2' squares? I think none. The worst risk is the 2x3 sections in the middle. Again- this layout is in a climate controlled room. I plan to attach the base material using steel L-brackets. so the assembly should be as a unit that will not sag. What is your benchwork?

My benchwork is Mianne base and Baltic Birch top with Homasote over it.  No sagging with Baltic Birch, and none expected.  The Homasote makes a huge difference in the sound suppression.

My layout is 31 x 21 feet, in an L shaped configuration, with two interconected levels. It uses an inverted L girder construction. The legs, stringers, girders (16" centers) and risers are all made from 1 x 4 poplar.  The sub roadbed is made from 3/4" 13 ply Baltic Birch plywood. Nothing has moved, warped, swollen, or changed shape since I put it together in 2006.

If I had to do it over, I would build it the same way

Keith-

Is convoluted acoustic foam the stuff that is on the walls in studios? If so, I would use insulation installation rods to hold it in place. Easy to remove and replace if necessary. Wait....

Ah, found it online. Also called eggcrate foam, the stuff they use in gun cases. Available in many sizes, including 4'x8'. Great idea, eliminates the fibreglass stuff and all its badness.

@452 Card posted:

Keith-

Is convoluted acoustic foam the stuff that is on the walls in studios? If so, I would use insulation installation rods to hold it in place. Easy to remove and replace if necessary. Wait....

Ah, found it online. Also called eggcrate foam, the stuff they use in gun cases. Available in many sizes, including 4'x8'. Great idea, eliminates the fibreglass stuff and all its badness.

With noise, number of observations/thoughts. You are really fortunate with your train room, that is an amazing space. One problem you may have is echoes in the space, any noise the layout generates it is going to echo in that space. Things like posters on the wall, furniture, curtains on the windows would help to stop that from happening.

The other thing you might want to think of is with the hardwood floor you might want to put some sort of isolating material between the legs and the floors, because any vibrations on the table will be transmitted through the legs to the floor, and that will create noise. Something like the rubber cups they have to put under table legs, or a small square of foam rubber.

And yep, homasote or ceiling tile on top of whatever base material you use is a good idea, and as has been discussed on here when putting down track attach it to that material, not the underlying wood.

The egg crate sound deadening material under the layout might work as well, never tried that one.

Hope this was helpful, love to see how the layout comes out.

Big kid is correct about the hardwood floors, a few area rugs will help considerably.  He is also correct about some type of sound damper between the legs and the floor, this is really important and will be much easier before any additional weight is placed on the benchwork.  I purchased a couple of commercial carpet tile with a thick and dense rubber backing which I cut into 3” x 3” squares. I placed these under the legs, unfortunately after the layout was built.  Wish I would’ve done this during construction, it would have been a lot easier.

Trains running with sound turned off to determine Decibel Level of the layout construction.

6 trains and 54 cars.  Plywood, Homasote (Sound Board), Foam Roadbed, Atlas Track & Turnouts (about 40db)  Normal conversation about 65db.  Speed 25% (Legacy speed steps @ 50)

Hmmm.  This discussion has gotten very interesting.

Whenever I stand within 100 feet of a passing train, the ground rumbles, the wheels clatter and the rails sing.  It is very loud, almost deafening,  and it is what makes trains exciting.

So, for all of the folks who are high sticklers for realism, why all of the massive efforts to suppress the sounds of your the trains?   To me at least, that makes it very unrealistic. 

When a real train passes, can you hear the voices of the men inside, or all of the other dozens of little sounds or noises that may come with all of the latest computer chip command control engines?  Nope.  I lived two blocks from a trainyard in Memphis for about 3 months, and I heard all of those sounds from real engines and cars, but only when they were traveling at a crawl through the switching yard.

Foam track bed on heavily glued and screwed plywood is what I have, and it dampened the "hollow drum" sound enough to be realistic for me.

So, are you building your table top beds with highly suppressed sound for realism?  Or, to accommodate all of the sound features of the engines you are buying?  (Which kinda seems backwards to me.)

Just something to think about.

To each his own of course. 

Mannyrock