Power source -some input, please

A serviced V, Z, KW or ZW should be adequate and can run any pair locomotives from any make that works with transformer/conventional control. Using certain modern transformer equipment with these modified sine waves etc can cause problems with the older pre/post war items you are looking to integrate whereas using a pre/post war transformer will have no ill effects on any equipment, including the new modern stuff (just be sure to spend a few cents on TVS diodes and have some good circuit breakers).

 

I believe creative wiring of Traditional Lionel O22 switches and properly blocked track sections can be used for the passing action you describe.

 

For two track operation, you may want to look at the MRC Pure Power Dual.

 

 

Thanks for the input, fellas. I'm a complete nincompoop when it comes to this kind of stuff. Trying to get going in 3-rail O and figuring out all the nuances involved is a bit daunting for an old coot, you know!

 

Actually, I had looked at that Pure Power Dual a bit and thought it might be a bit of overkill, but maybe I'm wrong on that. There was one on Ebay that went for about $100 that I'm kind of kicking myself for not bidding on it.

The most reliable source you are describing is a refurbished postwar ZW transformer available at the Rocky Mountain Train Show in Denver, 3/7/2015 - 3/8/2015.

Circuit Protection for trains will be needed.

 

If you would like to try the various Lionel and MTH power and control systems feel free to come by my Run Room in the South Denver Metro area.  You may want remote control which you can try.  Contact me through my website below or my profile here on the forum.

I am in the same boat as you; my future layout is vapor till I get back north for the summer.  I bit the bullet and went ahead and bought the Lionel ZW-L.  I am hoping that with it I will not have to worry about power.  My future layout will be ~20feet X 10feet with 3 lines of track.

I am only running a living room layout with it now - about 6 X 7 feet.  So far it works well and outputs voltages as advertised with a capped max output ranging from 17.96 to 18.14 measured at the transformer polls.

However, I have noticed for a section of my track farthest from the power supply - about 7feet, there is a slow section for my Polar Express Berkshire Jr (no Odyssey speed control); I will have to supply a power drop there or may have a bad track.  The Lionel Lionchief+ B&O has no problem with that section but it has a 'constant speed control' feature.

RickM46

 

I Don't know what wattage you are talking about.

Are you going to have a pair of lighted passenger trains on at any time?

Those are power hogs and will make you need a bigger Transformer.

The ZW is 250 or 275 Watts depending on year of make.

You can always go whole hog and get a ZWL (720watts)(MSRP $899.99) or an MTH Z-4000 (400watts MSRP $459.95).

Those can power massive loads.

If your going to have it turned on for 12 hours a day, I would stay away from any postwar transformers including the ZW. These get pretty hot after running awhile. I would go with a a Z400 or a new Lionel ZW. It might be overkill for the power you need to run the layout but there is plenty of room for expansion and it runs a lot cooler.

Russell, I don't have any idea of the wattage needed - like I mentioned previously, a complete nincompoop. And keep in mind that this may never progress to a two train layout. The largest possible user of electricity that I can see right now is a 12 car set of K-Line Golden State pulled with Williams F7's or the equivalent. Of course the Christmas layout I had this year was the Lionel Polar Express with all of the lighted cars and the little 80 watt Lionel transformer seemed to handle it quite well

 

The train show sounds interesting. Hopefully I can make it, although I am heading for Denver next week to take advantage of Restaurant week (already have all the reservations) and was down to Caboose Hobbies last week, so we'll see how that works out as far is schedules go.

 

By the way, for all practical purposes there are no grades on this layout - if that makes a difference.

Im running 4 z750's on my 350' of track and i double and tripple head all the time no issues at all. I run my trains a lot due to it being elevated and running through my whole house. A 5 hr. Session is not uncommon.

Thanks pat, heating is one thing I am kind of concerned about.

Tripleo

 

It sounds to me like this layout will be in a public area.  If so you might want loco's that only go in one direction.  If it has lights and other accessories on the layout you might want to set up two transformers.  One for track and one for everything else.  The one for the track could be controlled with a push button and timer on the 120 volt side.  I can't give any help on the parts needed but I'll bet a google search could.

 

Bruce

Heat generation from a serviced V, Z, KW, ZW transformer under appropriate loads is nothing to worry about. Heck, I still see many layouts at train shows powered by these troopers all day long. The key is properly sizing them. Rule of thumb is to have a ceiling of 75% the rated wattage. For a 275 watt ZW transformer, that is ~200 watts.

 

As for figuring out how much wattage you would need, you can do some math using these reference values:

---

 

POWER REQUIREMENTS

The following table lists the power in watts used by various model railroad components:

"027" locomotive - 25 to 35*

"O" locomotive - 30 to 40*

Smoke generator - 5

Operating accessories - 10 to 40

Automatic track signals - 10 to 15

Each 6-volt lamp - 1.5

Each 14-volt lamp (small) - 2

Each 14-volt lamp (large) - 3

Each 18-volt lamp - 5

 

* These wattages are drawn by locomotives when pulling the regular number of cars and include the power used by the whistle. However, you must add the wattage used by lamps in illuminated cars.

 

Power requirements of automatic couplers and operating need not be added in the total since couplers draw current only for an instant and operating cars only when the train is not running. For the same reason do not add the power used by such accessories as the Lumber and Coal Loaders, Automatic Life Bridges and others. All such accessories can be generally used even with the smallest transformers, provided that they are operated when the train is standing still.

 

Accessory lights and equipment containing steadily burning lamps, such as switches and switch controllers, considerable amount of power and should be added in the total power requirements.

 

 

From:

 

http://www.thortrains.net/manual3.htm

 

 

Have you considered having the push buttons operated a relay that would cut the power on and off to the transformer itself.  This would allow the transformer to rest and cool off between run segments.

 

 Not sure what type of engines you plan to run but The Choo Choo Barn in PA uses engine without any control systems (I think even the reversing units are removed) or sounds.  Engines with can motors with most likely be more reliable and last longer.

 

I built a display layout for a children's play space that was open for 12 hours per day and Lionel's CW 80's were used with good results.  

 

Good luck and happy railroading,

Don

The new ZW-L has an internal cooling fan; I think heat would not be problem with it.

It has kicked in a few times with no trains running but it is barely audible - maybe it was at a low speed.

Before I knew any better, I bought a new Lionel CW80; but, will keep it for running accessories if I have to.  I saw somewhere on this forum that you should not supply more than 15v?? to accessories - lights and switches; some members use it to do that.

 

RickM46

 

Yes it will be for public display. A grocery store, to be specific. Thus the reason for no smoke. I plan on locking all the engines into forward, although some engines automatically reset to forward after being off for a short time. I already have ordered a timer type control that goes on the track side of the transformer that will gradually start and stop the trains so there isn't any "slam-bam" action to worry about.

 

Cooling fan wouldn't be a real problem as long as it wasn't extremely noisy. After all, in a grocery store there is the constant hum of fans from the refrigeration units in the coolers and freezers. There are no accessories of any kind planned for this thing and I don't expect that to change - but who knows?

 

The owners of the store don't know this display is going in. That's why I'm engineering the thing at home and will have it built in sections to be installed when the time comes. I will have a 16 hour window of opportunity to do that between when the store closes on Saturday night and opens on Sunday morning. Hope I have enough time to get it done! 

 

 

This may or may not be a practical idea, but at our schools, we have motion sensors on the drink vending machines which automatically turns off power to the macines until someone activates the sensor by walking in front of the machine. I don't know what a device like this would cost, but it may be worth looking in to.

Don 

How about a GW-180 from Lionel.  It would be more than enough power for what you have planned and future expansion. It has great circuit protection and can run all day with no issues.

 

http://www.lionel.com/Products...ineID=&CatalogId=

 

 

An MTH Z4000 is the transformer of choice. It has a built in cooling fan that runs constantly and will keep the transformer nice and cool for the entire time it is turned on. Also its a whole lot less expensive than the ZWL from Lionel. I run one on my outdoor G gauge layout in the much warmer weather months even when the temkps are in the 90's and the Z4000 never gets hot. I run G gauge MTH locos outdoors with the ac and the DCS.  Hope you will consider this option.

I would be another to cast a vote for a MTH Z4000. It's an outstanding transformer. 

I heard that the z4000 was under powered compared to the lionel powerhouses

I would not discount a zw-l because of perceived "high cost" compaired to a z-4000. Keep in mind, even at list pricing, the z-4000 works out to $1.15 a watt, while the ZW-L comes in at $1.25. If you can use the power, the ZW-L is not priced out of the ballpark. 

 

Eric

Hmmmm....that GW-180 looks very interesting. I'm wondering if I would run into problems such as bmoran6 suggested when running older stuff. You know, that sine vs. chopped sine thing. Maybe I should just avoid that part of my idea or just get a simple, early production transformer that I could easily swap out if I decided to run some old tinplate or the like.

 

Decisions, decisions, decisions 

From what you decribe here, it seems the MRC, ZW-L and the Z4000 will All work perfectly for you. If it was me, I would look in ebay for the best price for any of the above. I picked up a used mint Z4000 for $250 shipped, so you can do the same if you have time. If you don't have time to wait, I'd pick up the cheapest one, I guess the MRC will fit nicely and it looks very nice...Good luck with your choice.

Looks like the MRC, ZW-L, the Z4000 and the new ZW are all candidates. I have experience with the Z4000. My train club runs an open house 2 times a year where the layout runs for 11 hours straight for two days. We used to have Post War ZWs. The ZWs would get so hot you could almost cook on them. We changed to Z4000 transformers. These run cool all day. The fans are quiet.