Proto 48 Tools

@BillYo414 posted:

Seeing @Sarah's thread about Proto 48 got me looking at some of my older locomotives with some disappointment. The wheels aren't spoked and that's my main beef. What are these types of modifications done with? A dremel? A small hobby CNC mill? Bridgeport? What's everyone's preferred method? 

Which wheels are you referring to? Steam locomotive drivers?

Yeah. Those specifically. 

You will need a lathe - 6" Atlas is a minimum.  Smaller lathes don't "cut it."

@BillYo414 posted:

Yeah. Those specifically. 

OK,,,,,what models are you referring to? Remember that some steam locomotives had disc drivers, so you will need to provide some specifics.

The model I was looking at in the basement yesterday is a 0-4-0 numbered 6-8635. It has disc drivers. It's actually a decent looking engine minus the motor frame but I feel a lot of that could be machined if I had the tools. I don't mind saving for a lathe but my experience in this forum has been to ask because somebody somewhere has also wanted to avoid dropping $$$ on the tools to do it. 

@BillYo414 posted:

The model I was looking at in the basement yesterday is a 0-4-0 numbered 6-8635. It has disc drivers.

Is this a Lionel 3-Rail model?

It's actually a decent looking engine minus the motor frame but I feel a lot of that could be machined if I had the tools. I don't mind saving for a lathe but my experience in this forum has been to ask because somebody somewhere has also wanted to avoid dropping $$$ on the tools to do it. 

Yeah it's a Lionel 3 rail. I'm not trying to make it a proto 48. Just trying to enhance the appearance some. Same goes for some of my other older Lionel stuff. 

@BillYo414 posted:

Yeah it's a Lionel 3 rail. I'm not trying to make it a proto 48. Just trying to enhance the appearance some. Same goes for some of my other older Lionel stuff. 

May I suggest that to have this subject/thread moved to the 3-Rail 027 Trains Forum (you can send an Alert to the Forum Moderators), as this is the 2-Rail SCALE Forum, and as such they don't tend to get involved in such "modifications" of 3-Rail products.

Although the subject to be modified turns out to be 3 rail (and some digging had to be done to find that out), I would assume making the kind of modifications the OP is asking about (modifying a driver set to have spoked wheels) is similar no matter the nature of the locomotive.  So move the topic if you think necessary but I think the answer is relevant in either forum.  I'm not even sure why asking the 2-rail vs. 3-rail question was relevant given the nature of the OP's question.

Making spokes appear on a driver is NOT something you would do on a lathe as turning is not the method that would work to remove the wedges of material between the spokes.  That being said, there are a variety of methods.  While a small mill would give the cleanest results, a drill press using a combination of drills and small end mills could be used and, if necessary, decent results could be achieved using a hand drill or a dremel and set of files.  Many old models will built with little more.

@Byrdie posted:

Although the subject to be modified turns out to be 3 rail (and some digging had to be done to find that out), I would assume making the kind of modifications the OP is asking about (modifying a driver set to have spoked wheels) is similar no matter the nature of the locomotive. 

Maybe not, as most 3-Rail steam locomotive models had diecast running gear components, while virtually all 2-Rail SCALE models would have some sort of investment cast drivers, i.e. brass. 

So move the topic if you think necessary but I think the answer is relevant in either forum.  I'm not even sure why asking the 2-rail vs. 3-rail question was relevant given the nature of the OP's question.

Making spokes appear on a driver is NOT something you would do on a lathe as turning is not the method that would work to remove the wedges of material between the spokes.  That being said, there are a variety of methods.  While a small mill would give the cleanest results, a drill press using a combination of drills and small end mills could be used and, if necessary, decent results could be achieved using a hand drill or a dremel and set of files.  Many old models will built with little more.

Please move the thread if that's fitting. I only posted it here because I didn't think many Proto48 3 railers existed haha 

I figured a lathe wasn't going to get me there. I have a drill press but I wasn't sure if that's what produced some of the jaw dropping models I've seen. Is it basically just drilling tiny holes and filing the remaining leftovers "peaks"?

This is not 3-rail stuff.  To convert a driver to Proto 48 requires a big lathe, and fixtures.  Converting to spokes involves either new drivers or some serious file work - also not often discussed on an 0-27 forum.

Opinion

Ive seen the lathe come up a few times. Is this project bigger than I'm expecting? I imagined machining the metal from between the cast spokes. Am I going to need a wider wheel to use spoked wheels? 

The reason the lathe keeps coming up is because I think you are confusing people with your post's subject line.  Whenever the words "Proto 48" appear, a 2- Railer immediately thinks of reduced wheel tread width to scale size along with an accompanying scale flange size.  Doing these wheel tread/flange changes obviously requires a lathe to perform this task to turn down a wheel to match the prototypical tread/flange dimensions. 

Therefore, are you indeed trying to make a Proto 48 wheel tread on this model to allow it to run on Proto 48 track?  If so, then you will need a lathe.  Or, are you just attempting to improve the existing 3-Rail model's driver wheel spoke profile?   If so, then you will NOT need a lathe and a small benchtop milling machine with a rotary table would suffice.   Even a small benchtop drill press will do but you will then be charged with a fair amount of delicate hand filing to cleanup the drilled out area between the spokes. 

Scott

@BillYo414 posted:

Please move the thread if that's fitting. I only posted it here because I didn't think many Proto48 3 railers existed haha 

...  ...

Mark in Oregon

Ah, makes sense now. I didn't know proto 48 was concerned about tread width and flange size. That's definitely lathe work. I am simply looking to improve the engines that I have. The people that will visit my layout wouldn't even notice that the wheels are solid. This is more for me. I'm envious of proto 48 but I know better than to try to get into it now. I have a ways to go before I'm ready for that. 

I spy a bench top milling machine from everyone's favorite American cheapo hardware store. Might that get me by? I would rather not do the hand filing but it might be what the budget dictates. 

The "HF" benchtop milling machine will do just fine for what you say you want to do.  Micromark sells a similar model.  However, like all machine tools, your overall budget should be at least twice the price of the machine tool itself due to additional costs for support tooling, e.g. end mills, collets, mill vise, clamps, dial indicator, test indicator, machinist square, calipers, etc.   It doesn't take long to nickel and dime you out of the the price of the mill itself in additional support tooling and measuring instrumentation when all is said and done even when you go the el-cheapo import route on these support items.   You will probably end up spending way more on the additional pieces than on the mill itself when all is said and done.  Unfortunately, you really cannot do anything productive on the mill until many of the support pieces are already in place.  Therefore, the mill just stands collecting dust until you source the basic support tooling/instrumentation.  Hence, an important factor when compiling your overall machine budget.

Scott

@BillYo414 posted:

Please move the thread if that's fitting. I only posted it here because I didn't think many Proto48 3 railers existed haha

They're still arguing over placement of the 3rd rail...........

I have converted heavy counterweight to light.  I used a drill press, jeweler's saw blades, and Swiss files.  I was successful.  I would never even attempt to convert BoxPok to spokes.  

Best way to proceed - is this a Lionel model? Is to find equivalent diameter spoked wheels and swap them out.

Doing this sort of thing on a cheapo end mill is a prescription for disaster.  I have seen CNC- machined spoked drivers, and they were only sorta ok.  But how do you  clamp the disc?  An indexing table might help keep things even - but you can buy several Sunset steamers for your initial investment.

I didn't think of swapping them out. I could definitely look into that. 

And that's true. I forgot that mills need tooling. I have other hobbies that could benefit from having the mill but investing $1000+ just to remove some metal might be unwise compared to a swap.

Thank you all for the help. I'm glad I asked. This wasn't as straight forward as I thought.

Hi Bill, thanks for your question. First of all, everything can be done. But you need the tools. Only you can decide wether or not to walk that road of becoming a machinist. I can tell you that it really payed off for me because I found a whole lot of new and interesting aspects to the hobby. It's fun and a great satisfaction arises when you finished your first wheel. 

If it is just for those four wheels on your locomotive you might try to get new ones but if you are planning to really do some conversions, the lathe that I recommend is the Sherline. They have a very nice combination of mill and lathe where you can just use your lathe motor as the milling tool. Later you can invest more money for a separate milling motor, but you don't have to. I know a true master who does everything with that configuration.

Of course you need more stuff. You need cutting tools and a second 3-Jaw chuck that you invert - so you don't ever have to do that again because you own two. You might invest into more tool posts and you will need a mill vise and ultimately a rotary table. You might end up with $ 1.800 plus to be fully equipped and ready to do all the wheel work. Plus you need to press off / on your wheels 

I use this MicroLux arbor press, it's very nice. With your new lathe you can turn your own pressing tools from brass rods. And you need some space where you really can leave your projects on the table. 

I hope I could convince you to take on the adventure! And of course, you are always welcome to ask questions – it's not like first hand experiences but it definitely helps in the beginning. You might find a person who actually has a lathe and gives you some ideas about cutting angles and speeds. Start with aluminium for your first cuts.

Kind regards

Sarah

Thanks for the tips @Sarah. I normally dive into stuff head first but the budget has been thin lately so I'm trying to get more info before I go buying stuff. I partially arrived at considering this because I have two older vehicles and a much older lawnmower so I figured that machining small parts for those becomes possible if I'm converting locomotive wheels too. 

Regardless, the entry cost is pretty steep for me at the moment. I think that I'll seek out replacements or see if I can trade from work for time on the mill at the local tool and die shop. I don't know if I'll ever achieve full proto 48 status but improving my roster's appearance is definitely something I want to do. Just sounds like it might be out of reach at the moment. 

Protocraft or Right-O-Way may have wheels you are looking for but, still going to require customization work on your part.

Thanks! I'll check those out. Maybe the customization work can be done with tools I already have.