PS3/Z-4000/Conventional Startup - I gave up...

Probably back to buying cheap parts. I dont know if this has anything to do with but look at the new ps3 scale gg1, the wipers on the pantograph are back to the toy like appearance. I also think they dont have enough people to help Midge in parts and not enough parts also to make repairs complete.

hi so how much do you want for the Z4K module and does it work?

alan

It must be the Z-4000.  What is the serial #.  If these engines work fine with other transformers, it has to be something weird on the Z.  I wonder if adding a choke would help.

What does the track signal test show after you get one of these offending engines starting up?  G

I own the new PS3 Mikado. What problem are you talking about?

If you mean that the engine starts up as soon as you roll the thumbwheel 1 click, it's a new feature and is supposed to do that.

If you spoke with MTH and described it that way, that's what they should have told you.

I think a different problem than that Barry.  G

No, I'm aware the of the 1-click feature.  You and I went around and around on this a while back with my E-8;  I now have 2 other newer PS3 engines that do this, and they do it in almost any situation - even on a 6-foot Fastrack "programming track" that I set up.  I had a few long email exchanges with MTH - they have seen it before but can't offer a fix at this time.

Hey G,

Serial number of the Z4K = 011346391

It was purchased new in late November.  

I get mostly 10's and some nines once everything is up.  I've been pretty meticulous about power drops.   I use the same terminal block and setup with the Z-1000 - basically a "star" setup and it works very well for the most part.   

How would I implement a choke?   I've learned a lot over the past few months in terms of wiring and such - I could probably pull it off if it's something I can apply outside the Z4K.  

That is a new model.  Choke would be hard to use for fixing a transformer.  It would have to be rated at 10amps or greater.  But basically put in series with the red terminal between trans output and center rail. 

If your getting 10 that doesn't seem to be an issue, so why does the Z-4000 power up differ from the Z-1000 with all the rest of the equipment the same?  G

So, what exactly is this problem?

The best I can figure is that when you turn on a Z-1000, you get 18V into the TIU RIGHT NOW.  With the Z4K, you have to run the throttles up to the 18V.  I spent a lot of time experimenting with different throttle applications.   The E-8 would sometimes work properly if I went right to or above 18V in a quick motion.  The Mikado would sometimes work if I turned it up really slowly.   The ES44 seems to want to get silly every time no matter how slow or fast I am with the handles.   

Again, the older PS3 locos and my PS2 locos could care less - a casual slide up to 18V doesn't affect them in any way.  They start and run normally.  

Another interesting note:  when the newer PS3 engines start up in this way, they revert back to what appears to be default settings.  Volume is at max, smoke is on, everything is reset.   I have to reprogram them each time.  As long as they come up normally, they retain settings just like they should, but as soon as they do this "auto start" thing, it's like they are doing a feature reset.

It seems to me like the new engines need the voltage high immediately. You can do this using the Z-4000 remote receiver on the Z-4000 transformer. The voltage can be raised with one click of the remote to 18 volts.

So, what exactly is this problem?

That's my question. 

His new PS3 engines are behaving differently than his older engines if the voltage is scrolled up with the handles of the transformer.

Yeah, but to me that is BS.  You can goof around with TIU tracks as well.  These are new MTH engines and their top-of-the line transformer that works fine with the older engines.    They should be compatible without additional investment or playing strange config games.  I surely would not have invested in a Z4K had I know it was not going to work well with MTH's own engines, and that's all I've got.    

This is a bug somewhere - MTH needs to figure it out and document a fix at some point.  All along it has felt like a "timing" thing...

P.S.

When I first get my new engines, I like to scroll up the voltage using my Z-4000 to make sure the amps don't go high indicating a short, especially on a used engines or after opening up one. I had no such problem with any of my PS3 engines.

Gentlemen,

   If his P2 engines are working correctly, this sounds like the P3 engine problem that happened on my old layout, there is a reason I do not own any P3 engines as of yet, some seem to be having problems.

Barry disagreed with me when I noted this problem quite a while back. I saw this happen before on my office/gameroom layout.  I do not use any bricks, and the only way some of these P3 engines worked decently was with the old ZW & DCS, with the handles left up to 16 or 18 volts prior to initiating power.  As long as the handles were up on the old ZW the engines would most of the time function properly, every once in a while we would need to restart the DCS TIU.  Remember however back then I was using a 3.10 DCS. However I still believe this is a P3 engine Quality control problem.

I doubt it is a problem with the Z4K, if all his P2 engines work properly and his P3 engines do not.

PCRR/Dave

It's pretty obvious, really.  They start up in what seems like conventional mode if they aren't presented with PRECISELY 18V instantaneously - this is virtually impossible to do with the throttle handles consistently, and is NOT required with ANY of my older PS3 or PS2 engines.  When they start up in this manner, they come on at full blast sound/smoke and lose all of their settings I programmed; that's loads of fun with consists.  Even after I shut them down and manage to get them up normally, the settings are still gone.   

Think of starting your new car every time and having the radio come on at full blast, high fan, and windshield wipers on full.  And this happens EVERY time unless you manage to turn the key in juuuuuust the right way....  and sometimes even then... 

No, the problem is not obvious, unless one is willing to use that miserable OGR search engine to try to find your earlier post.

I have 2 PS3 locos.  I do have an issue with one holding its sound volume settings.  I do not adjust the Z4000 handles, because I have the remote receiver, so I haven't experienced your problem. 

OK, now I recall your concerns...

I use 3 Z4000s with Remote Commander receivers exclusively, to operate 6 ZX4K Tracks. I have voltage set to go to 18 volts immediately.

I have a dozen or so PS3 engines (including the Mikado) and the only issue I have with any of them is that the RK Imperial Big Boy's wireless drawbar tether may work itself loose over time. This is the only one of my 8 PS3 steamers that does this.

Some questions...

• If you simply press Startup when these engines come up prematurely in Conventional mode, do they go into DCS command mode?
• If so, are the settings still messed up?
• What release of DCS are you using?

Barry,

    I can understand how you are set up, however you should be able to use the Z4K normally to initiate power and run your DCS controlled trains.   This is why I have always believed this is a P3 engine problem, especially when the old ZW, left with the handles up, would operate the P3 engines properly, from the DCS hand held remote control, the P3 engines in both the TR modes, and the engine P3 mode.  Now he is saying the same thing, but instead of using an old ZW with the handles left up to 16-18 Volts, they are using modern bricks, as the power supply.  The P3 engine is the common factor, in the problem, and not all P3 engines have the problem.

PCRR/Dave

Dave,

My transformers are sensibly placed under the layout so as not to take up valuable layout real estate,

Barry,

   4 of my Transformers were on the power station just above the 1st level of the layout, 2 of the older ZW's were under the platform with the handles left up to around 16-18 Volts.  Using either the Z4K or the ZW's and starting with the handles down, some of the P3 engines had problems, and did crazy things.  Leaving the ZW handles up an initiating power, the P3 engines usually ran correctly, there for because the Z4K needs to be started with the handles down to reset, which by the way I think is poor engineering on MTH's part, the P3 engines had problems on those particular tracks powered with the Z4K, the ZW left with the handles up, usually ran the P3 engines correctly in all modes.  Something in some of the P3 engines, is not functioning correctly in the Conventional TR TIU mode, using the TR Z4K mode P3 engines do seem to operate correctly.  When the P3 engines came out we had a similar discussion on this subject, when I said I owned no P3 engines because we had encountered some problems with them, now this gentlemen is saying something similar, only he is using the bricks to counter act the problem, instead of the ZW with handles up.

PCRR/Dave

Dave,

because the Z4K needs to be started with the handles down to reset, which by the way I think is poor engineering on MTH's part,

On the contrary, it's excellent engineering. One cannot get UL certification without doing so.

- No.  I can shut them down but other DCS functionality is erratic.  The horn will blow, but only for a second; most of the function keys do nothing.  They will not move.  About all I can do is shut them down and re-start them.  

- Yes, when I bring it back up with a 'start" command, the settings are still reset and I have to re-program every time.   

- I am running 4.2.  Everything was working very well until the combination of these engines and the Z4K, so I didn't want to add additional complications.   I can upgrade to 4.3 without issue, but I fear I'll just be introducing more strangeness to an already strange situation.  When I spoke with MTH, we talked about this, and their take was that 4.3 wouldn't change the outcome.  

It really is a funky state - I say "conventional" because I'm not sure what else to call it, and back in my early DCS days, I would occasionally bring up and engine in true "conventional" mode.   This almost seems like something different - like some quasi-DCS state where they can respond to some short DCS commands.  It's like they ARE in DCS mode, but completely reset and unable to process most commands.  

I was able to "beat" the Mike by moving the throttle VEEEERRRY slowly.  I can't beat the E-8 or the ES44 99.9% of the time.  Oddly enough, the only way to "beat" the E-8 was to snap the throttle up and hope for 18-19V.  I found no real way to "beat" the ES44.  As soon as the headlight comes on, regardless of lever speed, I know I'm screwed and they are coming up full blast.  My older PS3 and PS2 engines just sit there as they should like well behaved children.  

But I would say that they ARE in some kind of DCS-like state when they do it - just completely reset, full volume and smoke, and unable to process most commands.  At this point I wonder if MTH can recreate it....  

I just tested my PS3/PS2 consist which includes the ES44 with the bricks - works fine.  

Barry,

   I do understand that todays certs are different than long ago.  I keep my ZW's for some of these operating reasons, in fact I just purchased another ZW from one of the OGR forum members.  At any rate there is a problem of some kind, I also thought it might be with the TIU at 1st, however all my P2 engines run perfectly with both my TIU's so we are back to the P3 engines once again, being the problem.  On the other hand, I really like the P3 engines, especially with the built in BCR, great engineering, upgrade.  I still do not own any, because of the problems however.  All my P2 stuff runs great, especially after replacing the batteries, with BCR's when they start to have problems.

PCRR/Dave 

Just a note:

The latest model PS3 engine I have that does not exhibit the symptoms is a RK Dreyfuss Hudson delivered in 6/14.   Before that, it was a RK M1a delivered in 6/13.  Neither of these models exhibit the issue.  

So... did something change after 6/14 with the boards/code?

thestumper,

    I guess what we could do when purchasing a P3 engine, is go to the store, and have the exact engine we want tested on their tracks, using a Z4K transformer with side receiver, and DCS hand held remote control, have the start up in all the different run options tested, including the TR TIU mode.  If the P3 engine works properly in all the different modes, that is the engine you purchase.  Got a hunch after the 1st couple engine with problems however, the store owner is not going to want to test the P3 engines any more.  I still believe this is a P3 quality control issue of some kind.

PCRR/Dave

How about a On/off toggle on the output of the z-4000 and tiu.  You could raise  the Z4K handles at any speed and then throw the toggle to on... Nah! forget it.

t would likely work, but you shouldn't have to do that with a new engine. I would just send it back and let MTH figure it out. If not, how are they ever going to find out what the problem is if everyone just finds a work around to make it work.

Gregg,

   Actually that would eliminate the problem, however you should not need to do it, if the P3 engine was operating correctly.  It works using the old ZW with handles up & the bricks, you are making the Z4K operate in the same manner, by using the switch.

PCRR/Dave

Sure thing , I agree with you and Joe Allen.

To Greg's point - if you are using the variable channels, you raise the handles to the voltage you want then with the remote select the track and rotate the wheel and you have instant voltage. I recognize you can only have two variables per TIU.

Anyway, just a thought to see if the troublesome engines start up correctly.

Agreed - it's not a question of whether or not I can hack something together - I'm sure I can.  It's a question of what the actual problem is.   If I wanted power bricks, I would have bought bricks, not an expensive, full featured top of the line transformer. 

It's useless sending anything back to MTH - I've spoken with them and they don't have a fix.  They claim they are aware of the issue, and are "working on it".   I hope that they are, but in the meantime I see no reason to pack up three almost brand new cosmetically perfect engines, roll the dice with UPS, and then not see them for what could be months, only to get them back potentially unfixed.  

The Z-1000's work for now - I'd like more power.  I may switch to Lionel PH-180's at some point.  Heck, I might be switching more than that to Lionel if MTH can't get things straight...

Why not just chill and wait for a fix. It will most likely be a change to the engine's chain file and you can install it yourself.

thestumper,

   It is not my intention to belittle a great company like MTH, and if you want to have more power and have your P3 engines run perfectly via DCS, simply use an old 275 or 250 ZW, let the handles up all the time and the P3 engines work perfectly, in all the different modes.  You already own the P3 engines, so you might as well set up a transformer to run them perfectly all the time.  I think you will find that MTH will eventually find out what is causing some of their P3 engines to have these problems. 

I have been waiting for the fix myself and will continue to do so.

PCRR/Dave

That's pretty much what I'm doing - I have Z-1000's running the show for now - all is well.  I've got the Z4K in hibernation at the moment and I will either resurrect it post-fix or sell it for PH-180's.  I would like more than 100W per channel but at the moment it seems to be holding fast.  If I loaded up on passenger cars, this would change, and I'd prefer to have 180-200 at that point.  Or I could just switch to LED....  

I was only joking about changing my allegiance;  I'm an MTH fan and probably always will be.    Programming is hard - it may take time to figure it out and get it right.   My only "purpose" of this thread was to ascertain that there was, indeed, a problem, and if anyone else stumbles across it, they don't go half nuts trying to solve it assuming that it must be something they are doing wrong.   

If I were building a layout from scratch and were not going to ever run conventional, I'd go for bricks rather than a Z4000 also.  But this if does not apply to me.  If you are going to also run conventional and are planning to buy a Z4000, by all means get the remote control for it, so you can run conventional through the remote.

Stumper, I do not  move my Z4000 handles, since I have thre remote control, and I have experienced hotting startup and have the loco in never-never land such as you describe.  Hitting startup again did nothing.  Even shut-down would not work.  I would have to throw the toggle to kill power to the block, then turn power back on.

Personally, iff MTH offered me, brandnew, the same engine with my choice off PS2 or PS3, I'd take the PS2.  I don't need the prototype lighting, etc., as I just want reliability.  I'm sure this statement will get me a blast, but that's my feeling.

Dave,  You realize many a train have gone flying off the layout or crashed into other engines because handles are left on full voltage and some one starts the transformer before the command base is turned on.  Just takes that engine that starts in fwd once...

The design to require the transformer handles to be down to start the transformer errors on the safe side.

I use a ZW-C, handles A and D even when in full position don't allow track voltage to be present until Commanded too.  B and C do, which is why I use them for accessories.  If I have my command base off, I get full voltage immediately on power up.  Early on I crashed a few conventional engines until I got the hang of it.  So when I turn my power strip on the command base comes on first and I manually turn on and off the bricks.  No more crashes.   G

GGG,

   George the only run away I have ever had on my multi level layout, was due to a mismatched DCS TIU with the hand held remotes.  When I started to roll up the HH wheel to start the engine, it immediately ran at an uncontrolled voltage.  It was being

powered from the Z4K, not a ZW.  However I understand where you are coming from,  in reality, in all the years we have run our DCS with the ZW handles left up, we have never ever had a run away train.  Now understand only the DCS controlled tracks have the ZW handles left up, the discipline around my layouts is well controlled. 

PCRR/Dave