Puzzling- Consolidation shorting on a Ross switch, Ideas needed!

It’s hard to see from the picture, but if I had to guess it looks like the wheel is touching the center rail of the turn out rail. (Black rail). This rail should be dead when the switch is set to through. However it looks like you have a metal pin connecting the switch to the rest of the turn out rails. Yellow circle in picture below. That would backfeed  power. Tape over the black rail where the spark occurs and see what happens. Also measure power on that rail when the switch is set to through, it should be 0.

Hi Hokie, this looks like a curved switch.  If it is, then you aren't the first person on the Forum to experience issues.  I personally avoid curved switches in my track plans, but other Forumites have successfully overcome the issues with them.  Do a thorough search, perhaps it will inspire some ideas.

From the picture above it looks like the outside rail is not connected ( pin is above rail) and when the locomotive goes over it it moves the engine and wheels hit the inner rail.

John, that’s a good find on that pin not inserted in the rail. I have a few of their curved turnouts with no issues. As far as the center rail being unpowered if the route doesn’t go that direction. I’ve never wired for that. All my rails are powered at all times.

First I’d insert the track pin on the outside rail. It is not much of an arc. To me the center rail on the other route seems close to the outer rail the wheel is riding on. It may have enough play to briefly touch the center rail on the other route. If they are that close. Not sure a couple of track spikes briefly touching from 2 different rails could cause the brief short. But just putting the tape on the top of the rail you mentioned it had no effect.  They look even at the track joint. Tough to see from the picture. But could the center rail of the other route have moved inward. When you pull the track apart to reinsert the pin. Just leave the center rail  pin out on the other route as Edward mentioned and see if the problem goes away.

Thanks to all for the suggestions and ideas.  This morning I started down the list and, as luck would have it, it appears the first idea from @Edward G is the culprit.  I need to get some magnifying glasses or better eyes since I did not see the spark going to that rail.  But when I put tape over the center rail of the turnout in that area, the problem disappears, and I can creep through the switch.

What has me confused is the statement in bold.  It has been a while since I installed these, but my switches are "ross ready" and this one appears to have a soldered in jumper connecting the two center leads as shown in the blue circle below.  Considering this jumper, I don't see how these center turn out rails are dead and not both powered.  I probably am missing something but I have always had pins connecting the switch middle rails to the track power. I am consistent with Dave C on this situation.

@Ted S I did find some good threads on this and thanks. @John Hon I think that picture is misleading on that pin, I see what you mean but it is connected.

@Edward G posted:

It’s hard to see from the picture, but if I had to guess it looks like the wheel is touching the center rail of the turn out rail. (Black rail). This rail should be dead when the switch is set to through. However it looks like you have a metal pin connecting the switch to the rest of the turn out rails. Yellow circle in picture below. That would backfeed  power. Tape over the black rail where the spark occurs and see what happens. Also measure power on that rail when the switch is set to through, it should be 0.

Here is the drone view of the switch showing the jumper from ross.  I don't see any power connection to these rails unless they are connected to the exit track middle rail?

I only have one Ross Ready switch. All of mine I soldered my own individual wires. Your video clearly shows it happening. Just hard to figure out why it’s just that one non flanged driver that sets it off. The 2 outer running rails should be totally isolated between the frog and the diverging rails seeing the pickup rollers pass over them. But the axle will connect the one that the wheel is riding on as it passes over it. I’d give the soldered bar that connects the center rail a look. Maybe slip a piece of thin styrene under that isolated rail to make sure it can’t contact the bar in any way.

Rather than run the engine over it. Maybe you could use a dull flat blade screwdriver and press downward and move it along the outside running rail with very slight pressure and see if you can duplicate it.

@hokie71 posted:

Thanks to all for the suggestions and ideas.  This morning I started down the list and, as luck would have it, it appears the first idea from @Edward G is the culprit.  I need to get some magnifying glasses or better eyes since I did not see the spark going to that rail.  But when I put tape over the center rail of the turnout in that area, the problem disappears, and I can creep through the switch.

What has me confused is the statement in bold.  It has been a while since I installed these, but my switches are "ross ready" and this one appears to have a soldered in jumper connecting the two center leads as shown in the blue circle below.  Considering this jumper, I don't see how these center turn out rails are dead and not both powered.  I probably am missing something but I have always had pins connecting the switch middle rails to the track power. I am consistent with Dave C on this situation.

@Ted S I did find some good threads on this and thanks. @John Hon I think that picture is misleading on that pin, I see what you mean but it is connected.

Here is the drone view of the switch showing the jumper from ross.  I don't see any power connection to these rails unless they are connected to the exit track middle rail?

Now that we have the drone view, I can see you do not use the DZ-1008. That's what creates the behaver I described. (see illustration below from Ross). One way to fix this would be to install the DZ-1008, but I thing that's overkill and not needed. You are correct the jumper under the blue circle powers all the center rails. If this is the only switch on the layout having problems, then it must be something about this switch. Since you taped the rail and the problem went away, its not the rail pressing down on the power bar, I think its as simple as the black rail being too close to the wheel when the engine goes by. I think if you bend it out a fraction, the problem will go away. the black rails are only for power for the center roller, so alignment is not as critical as the outside rails.

If the tape solves the problem but isn't durable enough or you don't like the appearance, another option is to coat the offending location with nail polish.  Use the cheapest you can find.  I've solved a similar problem on HO switch frogs using nail polish - it's invisible and lasts a long time.

To be "invisible," that would be clear nail polish!  Or, in this case, maybe black nail polish?

Chuck

I've ground off some of the ends of those rails on various switches to solve these kinds of issues.  The curved switches and the double-slip switches are the worst offenders.

Thanks again to all for the ideas. @Edward G, I tried the bending deal and it won't move enough. See the picture below.  this wheel has no flange and it does like to move and wander.  The nail polish is going to be the long-term solution - I am negotiating with the nail polish owner in the household, even as I type.

BTW, @dave c. good suggestion on the screwdriver and not playing Russian roulette with this locomotive through the shorting tests.

Here is a shot at how much that wheel can wander and make contact as we have discussed.

I bought myself a bottle of "Revlon Colorstay Longwear Nail Enamel" in black for cases like this.  It works great, and I don't need to involve my wife's supplies.

@hokie71 posted:

Thanks again to all for the ideas. @Edward G, I tried the bending deal and it won't move enough. See the picture below.  this wheel has no flange and it does like to move and wander.  The nail polish is going to be the long-term solution - I am negotiating with the nail polish owner in the household, even as I type.

I found that some locomotives with flangeless wheels required a fix to the wheels.  I had to taper the blind drivers on both my scale PRR T1 Duplex locomotives to solve an identical issue, one MTH and one Lionel.

Also, for my MTH 2500 HP Transfer Engine, I had to shim the floating wheel set to stop it from flopping around and shorting to the center rail.

Odd that it’s only that one drive wheel that has the issue. It happens to be the one geared to the motor. One of the few engines with removable axles.  Could it be possible the wheelset is gauged a whisker wider than the one in front of it that is also blind.

Just an observation: One thing I noticed from your video (between 6-7 second mark) is the front drive wheel drops down in the frog of the switch and the 3rd driver sparks on the black rail and when the front driver comes out of the frog it climbs up on the rail and the 3rd drive wheel sparks again. During this period it is shorting as you can tell your bumper light dims. Seems the drive wheel frog may be the cause. That drop maybe causing that drive wheel to move and touch the black rail. You need to slow down the video in order to see it.

@Dave_C posted:

Odd that it’s only that one drive wheel that has the issue. It happens to be the one geared to the motor. One of the few engines with removable axles.  Could it be possible the wheelset is gauged a whisker wider than the one in front of it that is also blind.

Dave, Just checked the wheel set gauging, using my high tech harbor freight caliper and they are all spaced about 1.58 inches, outside to outside, give or take my gage R&R limitations.  Must be the angle of the locomotive on the curve at that moment that makes that wheel the culprit? 

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I found that some locomotives with flangeless wheels required a fix to the wheels.  I had to taper the blind drivers on both my scale PRR T1 Duplex locomotives to solve an identical issue, one MTH and one Lionel.

Also, for my MTH 2500 HP Transfer Engine, I had to shim the floating wheel set to stop it from flopping around and shorting to the center rail.

GRJ, Using the highly technical eye ball test, it does not look like a shim issue but that is hard to check and measure accurately with my tools.  How did you taper the blind drivers?  Dare I say the word.."file."

Looks like the traction tires should be wider but let's not go there yet.

@John Hon posted:

Just an observation: One thing I noticed from your video (between 6-7 second mark) is the front drive wheel drops down in the frog of the switch and the 3rd driver sparks on the black rail and when the front driver comes out of the frog it climbs up on the rail and the 3rd drive wheel sparks again. During this period it is shorting as you can tell your bumper light dims. Seems the drive wheel frog may be the cause. That drop maybe causing that drive wheel to move and touch the black rail. You need to slow down the video in order to see it.

An amazing find, and thanks for taking the time to identify that.  I slowed the video down to 0.25 and was able to get this screen capture.  The spark occurs when the front wheel hits the solid triangle of the frog.  Must give it enough wiggle to extend the last fractions to hit the hot rail.  I will experiment tonight using some thin spacers.  (the challenge now is not to screw up the locomotives that don't have this problem...)

@Bob posted:

I bought myself a bottle of "Revlon Colorstay Longwear Nail Enamel" in black for cases like this.  It works great, and I don't need to involve my wife's supplies.

Good idea on the black nail polish.  If I get some of that, I would bet my wife would never ask to use that color.  But never say never, stranger things have happened.

I taper the wheels by putting the locomotive upside down in a cradle, stick a vacuum right next to the wheel to collect the dust, and spin the wheels under power.  I use my Dremel with a 1/2" size 120 grit sanding drum and just grind away until the taper is about 40% of the wheel width from the inside.  The taper angle wants to be on the order of 20-25%.

I have the Nickel Plate version of this engine. I had an issue with a very early design Ross 3 way. An abundance of rails needing different polarity’s by using relays. Everything pretty much would crawl through it. I purchased the same Legacy 2-8-0 in a different roadname than yours. It would stall every time in same spot on the straight portion of the switch. It has 3 rollers and 2 were always on a powered center rail. After a half hour studying the switch. I figured out it was the wheels not making contact to an outer rail. The design of the engine. The pilot truck has a ground wire. The front driver is flanged and all steel. They are very close together. The rails they were contacting were isolated and not powered. The blind drivers and the traction tires wheel weren’t contacting any rail well enough for a ground path. The solution was to run a jumper wire from the engine to the axle wiper on the tenders truck. It will now navigate the switch at a crawl.

Wondering if replacing the traction tires would help in anyway. Lionel has had a few issues with tires not fitting down in the groove far enough. Maybe better tires would raise the engine slightly. The only reason I mention it. Is from my own experience with the wheels not even contacting the rails well enough to prevent stalling. Where as yours seem to be reaching a rail on another route.

I’d probably go for the least evasive route with the nail polish. Or maybe grind off the top of black rail or cut it back a bit. The good thing. Is after removing a plate on the frame and the side rods. The axles and wheels pop right out. You can even get replacements from Lionel for about $15.00 . By beveling the wheels as John described. You could contact Pat, Harmonyards on the Forum and he could machine the bevel  for you. Seeing they are easily removed. That way you wouldn’t disturb the switch that everything else runs fine through.

I suspect Pat might want to have the whole elephant if he bevels them so he can check the quartering after the job is done.