Q re: Lionel 180watt 'bricks'

I just turn mine  off for a few seconds and then back on.

 Works for me, of course, I corrected the short before turning back on.

 

Rod

I just hit the reset button.

Nice replies, but neither of you has answered my question.

You can reset the breaker by either resetting the breaker or power cycling the device.  

 

I'm not sure about what you are asking.  

 

If your goal is just to reset the breaker than resetting the breaker directly is a one stop process.  There isn't much in the way of complex electronics inside the brick and the most likely components to fail are the power indicator (neon bulb?) followed by the breaker itself.  Neither will be affected by the "power surge" that occurs during normal startup.  If you did not correct the problem the reset of the breaker is a faster way to detect this.  

 

This is basically a step down transformer with an on/off switch and a circuit breaker.  I guess you are more likely to wear out the power switch if you keep power cycling whenever there is a short.  I have the devices plugged into a power strip which means I rarely touch the on/off switch on the brick.

Both of my 180 Bricks are powered the same way, with power strips supplied by a master awl switch. I also rarely ever "turn off" either of the Bricks, unless someone wants to put a locomotive on that track, while the whole layout is already powered up.

 

I also have "fast blow" 10 amp fuses on each output channel of both TIU devices, thus simply resetting a breaker on a Brick is the easiest way for me.

Yes, both are equivalent but the preferred method would be to press the reset button.  Why put undo wear on the switch just to reset the power.  The rest button is what I use when there is a short.

Remember, the internal breaker on the brick only protects the brick from damage in a short, not the electronics of your train.

Best bet is to add an external breaker that trips quicker then the brick. The TMCC locon with auto reset installed to the brick not the rails will do the job.

Joe   

Joe:  How  could that be true?  I've never seen a faster-acting breaker than those in the bricks!  Doesn't protecting the bricks IMPLY protecting the engines? 

The lockon is faster than the breaker in the bricks, it is self resetting BUT it only works with constant voltage over 12 volts, aka TMCC command environment.

Don't know why thats true but it just is.

You'll have to ask someone around here with far more electronic knowledge then me to find out why.

What I do know is after I fried a TIU powered by a Lionel 180 brick, I installed a locon in line to both bricks and never had to reset the breaker since. The Locon trips before the brick every time and also protects the trains where the internal breaker won't.

Joe     

There is some electronics in the PH180 bricks in conjunction with the breaker, it's not a simple mechanical breaker like on the PH135. The breaker on the PH180 is VERY fast to react to shorts, much faster than the PH135.

 

AFAIK, either method does the same thing.

 

Here's a thread with a diagram that was posted here some time back.

 

 

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t.../powerhouse-question

Thanx, guys.  I have 20 PH180's, all conveniently located, and each supplied with an indicator LED,so I shall simply push the reset button on whichever needs it! Also,  I'll continue to 'assume' that it's fast enuff!!!

If you look at that schematic, clearly they were trying for a fast acting breaker.  Aside from a small time constant filter on the output of the first op-amp, it appears this breaker is as fast as the relay they use can close and interrupt the power.  The button just resets the latched state of the circuit, the same as dropping power would do.

 

..If you look at that schematic, clearly they were trying for a fast acting breaker.  Aside from a small time constant filter on the output of the first op-amp, it appears this breaker is as fast as the relay they use can close and interrupt the power.  The button just resets the latched state of the circuit, the same as dropping power would do.,,

 

John, As I mentioned above, Don't know whats inside but the Loc-on trips way faster then the 180 brick.  Could be as simple as tripping at a slightly lower voltage spike or as advanced as having faster electronics inside.

Either way, don't know how valid the argument, but it has been told may times on OGR, the internal brick breakers were designed to  protect the brick itself, not whatever it powers.

On the other hand, the loc-on protects whatever ahead.

Maybe you can explain it better.

Joe 

I have a Powermaster on one of my bricks (a 135) and a TPC400 on my other

(a 180). Almost all shorts are intercepted by the throttles (that is, the Powermaster

and the TPC), and the breakers on the bricks seldom open. But, when they do, I seem

to have to manually push the breaker button - turning the power off and back on 

doesn't reset the breaker proper, does it? That's a physical thing, or so mine seem to

be. Like a light switch. Maybe I've missed the magic of it creeping back into place.

 

I have no "lockons" - just GG direct connection clips.

 

Anyway, I much prefer the 135 bricks to the 180's; they have marginally less wattage

(which isn't really very important on small to moderate layouts), but they actually produce more voltage, and will run AC motored TMCC locos better.

Protection of electrical circuits:

 

In modern electrical control design there are several considerations:

 

1. For devices such as motors etc. the intent is to protect the device itself from overheating, fire or self-destruction.  In this instance a circuit breaker is designed to "open" when the normal running amperage is exceeded.

 

2. For systems involving wiring such as in a home or office the intent is to protect the wiring itself from "overheating" and causing a fire. In this instance a circuit breaker is designed to "open" when the normal design maximum amperage of the wire is exceeded. Local and national electrical codes would apply here. Generally speaking household wiring is designed for a maximum of 20 to 30 amperes with some exceptions such as hot water heaters, ranges, and airconditioners.

 

3. For model railroad power systems the manufacturer of the power supply or transformer needs to ensure that the device itself does not overheat or self destruct.  In this instance a circuit breaker is designed to "open" when the normal design maximum amperage of the transformer is exceeded.

 

4. For model railroad wiring systems one of the main considerations is to limit arcing and potential overheating of the track and wiring in case of a short due to a derailment. In this instance separate circuit breakers could be used for "each" feeder wiring. 

 

5. For model railroad control systems such as the MTH TIU and AIU units for instance there is often a need to limit the current so as not to exceed the manufacturers maximum rating for internal relays and electronic circuits.  In this instance the circuit breaker would be sized to limit the current "load" for these devices. In many cases the manufacturer specifies the maximum rated current (but not always).

 

 

In my model railroad power system I protect each circuit by a combination of circuit breakers and fuses (sometimes both) to ensure there are no "burnouts" or otherwise permanent damage to the power system, trains or accessories. For example I use a fuse for each of my control power for turnouts.  In this instance I want to prevent the device (turnout solenoid) from self-destruction.

 

 

 

 

The TMCC Direct Lockon also has an electronic circuit to trip the relay, and my experience with them is like yours, they tripped very quickly.  However, they actually tripped falsely in many cases, I have at least three TMCC locomotives that would kick it just by cruising by, and there is no issue with the locomotives.  Since they also block DCS, I've stopped using them altogether.

 

IMO, the "conventional" wisdom that the breaker only protects the transformer is flawed in the case of the PH180.  It offers as good a protection as most external solutions.

 

 

Never had the lockon trip anything.  It would isolate the power supply from the track if it detected an "event" but it didn't trip the breaker on the PowerHouse.  

Chuck, I was talking about the relay in the Direct Lockon, it appears to have a circuit to do what the PH180 does.  However, it's actually too touchy in my experience.  We also had them at the club layout, but removing them solved several issues. 

For what it's worth, I use two 180-watt Powerhouse bricks - one powers Main 1, while the other powers Main 2, both wyes, and the yard and industry tracks.  On top, there is a TMCC Direct Lockon for each brick, which, as you can see, blends right in.  I have two LED's which tell me if I have a problem, and the devices just look like signal instrument cases.  Often, when track power is turned on, there is a surge that the Lockon detects and automatically resets (probably from having a number of locomotives and passenger cars on the track.  I never use the breaker button on the brick.

 

George Watson gets credit for strongly recommending this arrangement, and it has been a definite advantage.

 

 

I had one inline on channel 3 on my ZW-C with four 135 Watt bricks. One day it did not like the order that I shut off my bricks and smoked an internal component. I think a triac. I think I shut off the main channel one that powers the ZW and left the channel 3 brick turned on. Removed it and never had a problem since. The breakers on the 135's trip at slightest short. Fred

Placing two circuit breakers in series is redundant. It should be obvious that the most sensitive CB will trip first. If CB "a" is designed to trip at 10 amps and CB "b" is designed to trip at 9.8 amps then it stands to reason and logic that CB "b" will trip before CB "a".

I recommend additional circuit protection with the PH135 bricks, they have a much slower circuit breaker.  However, the PH180 having the electronic breaker makes me agree with Don, it's redundant and not really necessary.

 

I'm from a different school of though also about the overload recovery.  When I have a breaker trip, I want it to stay tripped until I decide to reset it.  I never liked the TMCC Direct Lockon behavior for that reason, it just keeps pounding the circuit until you either turn it off or clear the short!

 

gunrunnerjohn:  This is a very good point.  I agree with it and with Don.  I'll stick to my 'guns', as mentioned in my last post!