Santa Fe Sunday

Lee Drennen - great photos. Wonder who made the vehicle that is next to the reefer?

RAY

Well I don't have anything really new for today, but I really liked this picture of the Marx 1998 Black Livery Santa Fe switcher and the caboose.

Here is an early Marx Santa Fe "Middle States Oil" from about 1935.

Best wishes

Don

One from my HO archives, take at the Oak Park club back in the 1970's:

Athearn had delayed their Santa Fe FP45's and F45's for some reason, so I painted up my own.

Rusty

K-Line A-B-A from the 70's

Gary 🚂

Since a lot of members are sharing their Santa Fe F series videos, I thought I'd jump in! Here's my Santa Fe Sunday F3's pulling freight.

Happy NFL Conference final Sunday!

Gary, those are really nice units. We had them in our hobby shop 'back in the day' and they sold well. One fella brought his back in a week or so and had painted those sliver brackets behind the truck sides a flat black and it gave them a whole new look!

*

Two earlier Lionel Santa Fe diesels. Someone has the U28G on the FS board (with NO Photo) for a mere $200. Great engine with excellent sound!

I just learned of Santa Fe's Skyway airline attempt in 1946 from my son, a pilot. Knew nothing about it. Interesting story - see here.

Santa Fe Skyway

Tom

The Norfolk and Western probably never met the Santa Fe in real life, but that "J" looks right at home with the Warbonnets.  Incidentally, this photo includes postwar, MPC, and LionChief Plus 2.0.

@Ray of sunshine posted:

Lee Drennen - great photos. Wonder who made the vehicle that is next to the reefer?

RAY

Ray I think it’s a White Box I’ll look tomorrow for you

@chris a posted:

ATSF Legacy Northerns and some GGD Heavyweight Pullmans

I like your scenery - looks like Appalachia or the Ozarks.  And of course - beautiful locomotives - the 3751 class 4-8-4s are among my favorites of the Santa Fe.

Just a historical note - the ATSF didn't have any "Northerns".  The Santa Fe referred to these locomotives as "Heavy Mountains" or "New Mountains".  In the early schematic books, they are also referenced as "Mountain 4-wheel trailer".  Never "Northern".  That would be totally off-brand.  An example of bad historical research by toy train manufacturers.

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

Just a historical note - the ATSF didn't have any "Northerns".  The Santa Fe referred to these locomotives as "Heavy Mountains" or "New Mountains".  In the early schematic books, they are also referenced as "Mountain 4-wheel trailer".  Never "Northern".  That would be totally off-brand.  An example of bad historical research by toy train manufacturers.

Northern has pretty much become a Generic term for 4-8-4 nowadays.  4-8-4's were known by at least a dozen different names, depending on the railroad.

As far as model manufactures go, it's less about what the individual railroads called a 4-8-4, but what the buying public recognizes the model as.  How many people call a UP 4-8-4 by it's proper "FEF" or "800" instead of Northern?

Even the top HO brass manufactures labled their model Santa Fe 4-8-4's "Northerns."

Rusty

@FrankRazz posted:

Frank , It could be just me but I'm not getting a photo or video on this Santa Fe Sunday reply. 🤔

@Rusty Traque posted:

Northern has pretty much become a Generic term for 4-8-4 nowadays.  4-8-4's were known by at least a dozen different names, depending on the railroad.

As far as model manufactures go, it's less about what the individual railroads called a 4-8-4, but what the buying public recognizes the model as.  How many people call a UP 4-8-4 by it's proper "FEF" or "800" instead of Northern?

Even the top HO brass manufactures labled their model Santa Fe 4-8-4's "Northerns."

Rusty

As a historian, it's my job to inform when historical elements are inaccurate.  It's up to the reader to determine what they do with it.  The ATSF didn't have any "Northerns." They also didn't have Hudsons or Berkshires.  These names are sinonimos with Eastern and Northern roads.  Not the Santa Fe.  A term like "Northern" would be completely foreign to the ATSF which operated on the great plains and in the southwest.

As for manufacturers - if it ain't an eastern road (see C&O Greenbriers or NYC Mohawks), marketing and development is pretty questionable.  You know better than most - because you know what's wrong with the Santa Fe Black Bonnet 2-10-10-2. Manufacturers are pretty lazy - unless the model represents something in their own backyard.

@Dallas Joseph posted:

Frank , It could be just me but I'm not getting a photo or video on this Santa Fe Sunday reply. 🤔

Hmm, what did Santa Fe call their 4-8-4s?

@FrankRazz posted:

I must be doing something wrong . Still don't see anything. 🤔

Neighboring road power in the land of Santa Fe

@wb47 posted:

Hmm, what did Santa Fe call their 4-8-4s?

Heavy Mountains.

Or also referred to them by Class.  2900 Class, 3751 Class, 3765 Class.

Rusty

3945 getting ready for today's commuter run.

Bob

@wb47 posted:

Hmm, what did Santa Fe call their 4-8-4s?

The engine crews called them "Big 3700's."  "Little 3700's" were the 4-8-2's, which began with engine 3700.  The fact that there were several classes of 4-8-4's (3751 Class, 3765 Class, 3776 Class) in the number series was not differentiated by Enginemen - they were all "Big 3700's."

To most observers, though, they are Northerns, a generally accepted descriptive term.  It works for me.  Now, with my hard core Santa Fe friends, we just use the number Class, but others are hereby dispensed from any such requirement on a Forum devoted to three rail model railroading and where most of the members are either from the east and/or impartial as to the prototype railroad for their model locomotives.

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

As a historian, it's my job to inform when historical elements are inaccurate.  It's up to the reader to determine what they do with it.  The ATSF didn't have any "Northerns." They also didn't have Hudsons or Berkshires.  These names are sinonimos with Eastern and Northern roads.  Not the Santa Fe.  A term like "Northern" would be completely foreign to the ATSF which operated on the great plains and in the southwest.

As for manufacturers - if it ain't an eastern road (see C&O Greenbriers or NYC Mohawks), marketing and development is pretty questionable.  You know better than most - because you know what's wrong with the Santa Fe Black Bonnet 2-10-10-2. Manufacturers are pretty lazy - unless the model represents something in their own backyard.

I would add the title page in the Santa Fe "bible" Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail is titled "4-8-4 Northern Types."

A manufacturer calling the Heavy Mountain a Northern is a minor offense in my mind.  Those Black Bonnet and Valley Flyer fantasy paint schemes make me cringe.  They misrepresent the Santa Fe completely, especially as the so-called Black Bonnet perpetuates a printing error made well over a half century ago.

Even as I look at an RF&P, 4-8-4, the first thing that comes to my mind is "Northern" rather than "General" or "Governor."  Pretty much the same with Santa Fe or any other railroad.

Not everyone that buys a Santa Fe 4-8-4 is a Santa Fe modeler or historian.  By calling Santa Fe 4-8-4's Northerns, manufactures are avoiding confusion with the buying public.

A couple of years ago I discovered that Southern Pacific referred to their 2-10-2's as "Decapods."  That put question marks above my head until I dug into it, but I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around it.  My mind's eye still considers a Decapod only as a 2-10-0.

Rusty

Happy Santa Fe Sunday, hope everyone is having a great weekend!

Here’s my Santa Fe Offerings my two favorite Reefers cars. The first one is a Vintage Atlas O Custom painted and decaled the second is a old All Nations Reefer I restored.

@Rob Leese posted:

Neighboring road power in the land of Santa Fe

The Quanah Acme & Pacific is a friendly connection (railroads that have a preferential interchange of traffic).

@Rusty Traque posted:

I would add the title page in the Santa Fe "bible" Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail is titled "4-8-4 Northern Types."

Rusty

Citing secondary sources is not grounds for argument. Everyone makes mistakes. 

The ATSF blueprint index dated 1927 (digitized by the Kansas State Historical Society) shows 3751 class as Mountain 4 Wheel Trailer.

Here you see a blueprint of Class 3700 - "Mountain" Type from this blueprint book.

This is a copy of the original Blueprint for 3751.  Note Type: "Mountain." 

I know I also have an original somewhere that specifically says "Heavy Mountain" but I've misplaced the file.

Here's copies of blueprints for 2900 class... No "Type" was ever listed.  Not a "Northern."

Application Materials submitted by the San Bernardino Railroad Historical Society to the National Park Service for 3751 for entry in the National Registry of Historic Places specifically refers to 3751 as a "New Mountain" and not a "Northern.".  I can't share the PDF link but here's The Narrative Description as copied directly from that application:

"Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway locomotive No. 3751 is an oil-burning steam locomotive built in May 1927 by the Baldwin Locomotive Works in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Santa Fe and Baldwin jointly developed the design in 1926. Known as a "New Mountain" type on the Santa Fe Railway, the locomotive was the first of its type purchased by the Santa Fe and the first of this type built by Baldwin."

Do what you will with that info.   

@WesternPacific2217 posted:

Santa Fe Sunday isn't always beautiful sight! My 2005 Santa Fe F3 #19 TMCC ABA set is in a state of disrepair, as the powered unit is dead.

If it's any consolation, the real Santa Fe F3 consist numbered 19 was wrecked at least three times, and repaired to run until retired at an advanced age.

@Rob Leese posted:

Neighboring road power in the land of Santa Fe

Very nice layout!  Great scenery work.   

I saw a snippet of the Legacy Mikado in there. Beautiful locomotive!  I do wish the Mikado was given better treatment by manufacturers.  It was the real workhorse of North American railroads.  Something like 9500 in service.  ATSF had slightly over 300 in it's roster. 

Santa Fe 2333 pulling in the station to pick up passengers.

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

Citing secondary sources is not grounds for argument. Everyone makes mistakes. 

The ATSF blueprint index dated 1927 (digitized by the Kansas State Historical Society) shows 3751 class as Mountain 4 Wheel Trailer.

Here you see a blueprint of Class 3700 - "Mountain" Type from this blueprint book.

This is a copy of the original Blueprint for 3751.  Note Type: "Mountain." 

I know I also have an original somewhere that specifically says "Heavy Mountain" but I've misplaced the file.

Here's copies of blueprints for 2900 class... No "Type" was ever listed.  Not a "Northern."

Application Materials submitted by the San Bernardino Railroad Historical Society to the National Park Service for 3751 for entry in the National Registry of Historic Places specifically refers to 3751 as a "New Mountain" and not a "Northern.".  I can't share the PDF link but here's The Narrative Description as copied directly from that application:

"Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway locomotive No. 3751 is an oil-burning steam locomotive built in May 1927 by the Baldwin Locomotive Works in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Santa Fe and Baldwin jointly developed the design in 1926. Known as a "New Mountain" type on the Santa Fe Railway, the locomotive was the first of its type purchased by the Santa Fe and the first of this type built by Baldwin."

Do what you will with that info.   

I've never denied what the Santa Fe called their 4-8-4's, although "New Mountain" vs. "Heavy Mountain" is news to me.

This is really getting into the weeds.

The simple fact of implying the manufactures are lazy or lacking research just because they apply the generic Northern moniker to a Santa Fe 4-8-4 is inappropriate.  It's marketing, pure and simple.  Probably 95% of modelers out there in modelrailroadland refer to Santa Fe 4-8-4's as Northerns.

A rose by any other name...  I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Rusty

Well folks, I am afraid I have nothing to contribute to the discussion above not having a "northern" of any type for any railroad and am not knowledgeable enough to make a reasonable comment so I will fall back on the old cowboy saying ...        " Call me anything you like except late for dinner! " 

So as to my contribution to Santa Fe Sunday... today I have a made up little train containing a Santa Fe switcher (Marx Alco- S3 available '55-'62) , a Santa Fe boxcar (#3280 in orange available '56) and a Santa Fe work caboose ('62).  So if Santa Fe fans were lucky enough to get some toy trains in the late 50's or early 60's this is what you might have had :

Best wishes for a great week

Don

Happy SFS everyone!

The PIE trailer is classic 50s.  The flatcar and trailer is Weaver, my favorite piggyback cars. Nice smaller diesel paint scheme too.

Here's my entry for Santa Fe Sunday. I haven't had this locomotive on the tracks for about 3 years, so when I took it for a test lap before making the video two rubber tires broke, one on the front and one on rear, and got jammed into the gears, it came to a rather abrupt stop!!! Installed new tires and we're good to go! Glad I had some stashed.

What we have is a Lionel Legacy BNSF C44-9W (dubbed by many Dash 9-44CW) pulling a mostly Santa Fe freight consist with a Warbonnet caboose. Not likely this scene would been videoed in real life as F3's pulling the SF Chief were long gone by the time the C44-9W's were released by GE in 1993-2004.

@WesternPacific2217 posted:

Santa Fe Sunday isn't always beautiful sight! My 2005 Santa Fe F3 #19 TMCC ABA set is in a state of disrepair, as the powered unit is dead. As it turns out the R2LC is dead, and it might be due to the rectifier output voltage going all over the place! So both are on order, as these older TMCC units work with the R2LC C08 only, so I can't use the R4LC I have lying around in spare parts. As usual, a long wait to receive parts from Lionel, but it is what it is.

These units are a wiring nightmare! Ugh!

Wish me luck!

Update on the not so pretty Lionel F3 TMCC. I finally got the parts I ordered 3 weeks ago from Lionel support, so I began the disassembly. Wires, wires and more wires, ugh! I tested it under power again and the AC rectifier is now completely dead. That's the new one with arrow on the left of the photo. While I was taking it apart, I noticed the AC power wire, circled in the center, the wires had been smashed by the smoke unit. It is just a matter of time before wires are exposed and a dead short occurs. I have a plan to fix that now. Secondly, when I removed the smoke unit a part fell out, it was the capacitor from the smoke unit PCA (circled at the bottom). The capacitor had expanded at the bottom, most likely from heat, and it expanded so much, with such force it pulled the leads right out of the solder joint! I've never seen that before!

Now I'm wondering what went first, the AC rectifier or the smoke unit? The cascading effect!

I already new that there were only two screws holding the motherboard in and only one standoff. That's the way it was when I got it used. I have new screws and standoffs so it will be properly fastened to the chassis. The R2LC radio is dead, I tested it in another unit to be sure. I have a new one.

I guess the big question is do I replace the cap on the smoke unit, or just get a new smoke unit. I have access to the cap, so that's not a problem. whew, that was a mouth full. It's gonna take some time to get it back together, I'll update on progress if anybody is interested. I'm thinking I should move this to another thread, I'll look around for a better place to post.

@WesternPacific2217 posted:

Update on the not so pretty Lionel F3 TMCC. .......

Sounds like maybe it was last serviced at the Cleburne shops. 

On a serious note, good luck in getting it back together.

Eastbound:

@Rusty Traque posted:

...This is really getting into the weeds.....

I find a that a general rule of thumb is to avoid associating a name with 4-8-4 locomotives.  So many names it's hard to keep straight.  Heavy Mountains, Niagara, Niagra, Potomac, Wyoming, Dixie, Pocono, FEF, GS, 520 Class ..... pick a name any name!

For the ATSF, I personally refer to them as 2900 or 3700 class locomotives right or wrong.  My personal roster of ATSF steam is a little light however.  Something to rectify at some point in the future. 

@WesternPacific2217 posted:

Update on the not so pretty Lionel F3 TMCC. I finally got the parts I ordered 3 weeks ago from Lionel support, so I began the disassembly. Wires, wires and more wires, ugh! I tested it under power again and the AC rectifier is now completely dead. That's the new one with arrow on the left of the photo. While I was taking it apart, I noticed the AC power wire, circled in the center, the wires had been smashed by the smoke unit. It is just a matter of time before wires are exposed and a dead short occurs. I have a plan to fix that now. Secondly, when I removed the smoke unit a part fell out, it was the capacitor from the smoke unit PCA (circled at the bottom). The capacitor had expanded at the bottom, most likely from heat, and it expanded so much, with such force it pulled the leads right out of the solder joint! I've never seen that before!

Now I'm wondering what went first, the AC rectifier or the smoke unit? The cascading effect!

I already new that there were only two screws holding the motherboard in and only one standoff. That's the way it was when I got it used. I have new screws and standoffs so it will be properly fastened to the chassis. The R2LC radio is dead, I tested it in another unit to be sure. I have a new one.

I guess the big question is do I replace the cap on the smoke unit, or just get a new smoke unit. I have access to the cap, so that's not a problem. whew, that was a mouth full. It's gonna take some time to get it back together, I'll update on progress if anybody is interested. I'm thinking I should move this to another thread, I'll look around for a better place to post.

Scott- might be time to strip everything out and do an ERR upgrade with cruise.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Bob