Interesting topic. After you've been in it awhile you get to know what is what. I was one of the ones someone mentoned that during the 80's and 90's it was thought that our trains would only go up not down or even stay the same so I used that to justify buying way too much. I would be better off with less volume and more quality.
I switched to O from HO, mainly because I thought (and still think) that the larger trains, AND the AC power add up to easier handling for full-sized fingers, better ability to maintain (using old eyes and those full-sized fingers), and more reliability. My HO layouts were never as reliable as I wanted, because my track work was never as good as it needed to be.
Fastrack with its plastic roadbed, and then painting the rail, ballasted and weathered looks good, runs just fine.
By trying to model within a certain era (1950), the prototype trains were shorter. So, I also buy mostly 40-50 foot (10" - 15") freight cars, and 16" Passenger cars. None of my visitors seem to notice (like they would if the HO trains, although "scale", didn't RUN right). In fact, three -rails to me now LOOKS "normal".
There is major flaw in the information here , American 0 scale follows a proportion 1/48th the prototype , or 1/4 ' to the foot (American not metric). From the track, the flanges , wheels ,pilots details roof, from bottom to the top, that will run ( for the most part in 5' gauge track ) O gauge runs the gambit in proportions from what ever Marx made , A.F. 3/16th 3 rail, O-27 , and what ever marketing name you want to add to it, including the newest and best currently being produced, ( and some of the are dead drop gorgeous) currently and recently produced by several MFG's for a 3 rail standard and not 2 rail Standard 's are not 0 SCALE! You can put a Potato on a Lionel truck call it O gauge , but you cant call it 0 Scale.
@Dave Koehler posted:You can put a Potato on a Lionel truck call it O gauge , but you cant call it 0 Scale.
Dave,
I hear ya, but ...
I don't see anyone on this thread trying to do so, at least not recently. Furthermore, for the entire OGR forum it seems that we all understand this thoroughly, with perhaps a few exceptions.
So, are you having, or intending to start, a heated discussion here? Or, is your pontification really for those who are not members of this forum, in which case the people who really need to understand and accept what you're saying won't even see your admittedly valuable words?
(You're preaching to the choir.)
Mike
The intent is not to start a brawl, but to correct the miss information that runs rampant among O gaugers , and I was one for a number of years, and I still have both!! , The point is correct . 0 scale can be O gauge , But 3 rail cant not be called scale Just like that Potato.
The point of this thread was not 3 rail vs 2 rail. The point was scale vs gauge. it does not matter if the rolling runs on 3 rail track or 2 rail track. It matters to modelers who want to try to obtain models that are really models of prototypes in a given scale.
I know of 2 large layouts that are 3 rail, and both are focused on scale models. They are also both focused operations using switchlists to route cars from place to place on the layout. They both use walk-around control systems and have layout where you can follow your train. The 3 rail is immaterial from the focus of the model RR.
I think we have 1 1/4 gauge in O scale because Joshua Lionel Cohen settled on it many years ago. and he may have followed European practice for the gauge A lot of European O Scale is 1:45 (vs our 1:48). And guess what, 4 ft 8 1/2 inches (56.5) scaled down to 1:45 is 1.2556 inches - basically 1 1/4 inches. In the first half of the 20th century (1900s) and especially the 1920s and 30s most mfg and modelers paid a lot less attention to scale too. Probably many used European standards because they were available.
What would be nice is if mfg and private sellers would learn the difference between scale and gauge label their stuff correctly when they want to sell it. That way whether we use 2 rail track or 3 rail track, we have a much better idea if the product will fit our needs.
"O scale" can only be "O gauge" if you are modeling a 5-foot-gauge railway in 1:48 scale.
If you are selling just say the piece is either traditional size or scale size. I started with Lionel in the eighties and only bought Standard O size.
@prrjim posted:The point of this thread was not 3 rail vs 2 rail. The point was scale vs gauge. it does not matter if the rolling runs on 3 rail track or 2 rail track. It matters to modelers who want to try to obtain models that are really models of prototypes in a given scale.
I know of 2 large layouts that are 3 rail, and both are focused on scale models. They are also both focused operations using switchlists to route cars from place to place on the layout. They both use walk-around control systems and have layout where you can follow your train. The 3 rail is immaterial from the focus of the model RR.
I think we have 1 1/4 gauge in O scale because Joshua Lionel Cohen settled on it many years ago. and he may have followed European practice for the gauge A lot of European O Scale is 1:45 (vs our 1:48). And guess what, 4 ft 8 1/2 inches (56.5) scaled down to 1:45 is 1.2556 inches - basically 1 1/4 inches. In the first half of the 20th century (1900s) and especially the 1920s and 30s most mfg and modelers paid a lot less attention to scale too. Probably many used European standards because they were available.
What would be nice is if mfg and private sellers would learn the difference between scale and gauge label their stuff correctly when they want to sell it. That way whether we use 2 rail track or 3 rail track, we have a much better idea if the product will fit our needs.
you kinda missed the point I was trying to make. American 0 Scale has traditionally been 1/4' =1' or 1/48 proportions, fine . 3 rail O , has been built to every different size , imaginable up and including very accurate models, but for 3 rail track not 0 scale 2 rail for over 80 years it has been known that one is not compatible with the other . Yes it would be nice if all the Mfg's were to mark their products correctly. Lionel wasnt the first to produce O gauge here nor 3 rail , both were done to save cost and time in mass producing toy trains
@romiller49 posted:If you are selling just say the piece is either traditional size or scale size. I started with Lionel in the eighties and only bought Standard O size.
But then , like today Lionel wasnt the only one making O gauge
@B Smith posted:"O scale" can only be "O gauge" if you are modeling a 5-foot-gauge railway in 1:48 scale.
well no , 0 scale !/48th , can be wide gauge , 5' gauge, proto 48,and all the narrow gauges.
@Dave Koehler posted:well no , 0 scale !/48th , can be wide gauge , 5' gauge, proto 48,and all the narrow gauges.
To kinda sorta make this point I have reserved several SDL39s from Lou Houlamarde. He is making mine in P48. About 2/3s of them will be Ow5. Interestingly the prototypes are currently in Chile running 5' wide gauge. So while mine were prototypical in the day theirs will be prototypical today; although not painted for the Chilean Railroad.
when i was young (groan!) there was Lionel and AF. i knew about HO but the name LIONEL was better known.
LIONEL was .. some relative size to real trains. I knew nothing about scale. These were TOYS! that moved that used electricity that I could control. that was fun.
Much much later when i came back to trains I started to ask why are the LIONEL "people" attached to the accessories SO BIG compared to the trains. That was the first time I considered scale. But THEN, there were no alternatives for scale.
Looking back at HO and 2-rail, these guys understood SCALE. So from then I tried to hand-build new things that were SCALE-LIKE.
now I can 3D print actual 1/4" scale with ease so i do.
I love this discussion but it makes my head hurt. For example, (in jest) What If I was new to the hobby and just purchased a MTH 20-97991 2 bay fish belly hopper car. The inter carton front panel says in bold print AUTHENTICALLY DETAILED O SCALE FREIGHT CARS. My question, How would one know the true scale of this hopper in the carton? Thanks. Tommy
A fractured Fairy Tale:
Years ago, two rail O was called "O Scale". Three rail was called Tinplate (having to do with the construction of it's track). Both were gauged at 1 1/4".
Then along came the P48ers (aka fine scale) and the 3 Rail Scale guys. The P48 guys (the real trouble makers, LOL) needed their own gauge because they're special! The 3RS guys just want to take all the old O Scale guys "scale" stuff LOL.
The P48 guys are into S&M (they hand lay their track with ensy tiny spikes and check their gauge using exotic measuring devices). The 3RS guys are busy raiding 2 rail shows and trying to figure out if stuff is SCALE!
Hopefully, by now you have figured out that this is all in jest! Enjoy whatever you are doing and don't worry about the other guys!
PS: No complaining from the narrow gauge guys because you were not mentioned! 
ECI
@EastCoastIron posted:A fractured Fairy Tale:
Years ago, two rail O was called "O Scale". Three rail was called Tinplate (having to do with the construction of it's track). Both were gauged at 1 1/4".
Then along came the P48ers (aka fine scale) and the 3 Rail Scale guys. The P48 guys (the real trouble makers, LOL) needed their own gauge because they're special! The 3RS guys just want to take all the old O Scale guys "scale" stuff LOL.
The P48 guys are into S&M (they hand lay their track with ensy tiny spikes and check their gauge using exotic measuring devices). The 3RS guys are busy raiding 2 rail shows and trying to figure out if stuff is SCALE!
Hopefully, by now you have figured out that this is all in jest! Enjoy whatever you are doing and don't worry about the other guys!
PS: No complaining from the narrow gauge guys because you were not mentioned!
ECI
Eci
" Fractured Fairy Tale's.... you're dating yourself, LOL ) I kind of grew up in that era when O gauge was 3 rail and 0scale was 2 , with or with an out side 3rd rail. I plead guilty , I like pain , I do hand spike my own track , ( Wack, thank you mam, may I have another) But at least visually see the deference , between O gauge and 0 scale. I do give Kudo's to those mfg's that have brought 3 rail up into the more , modern era huge engines , double stacks, auto racks, ect., and engineer them to run on curves that would be tight on a street car line. (but cant get a simple mogul to through its own switches)
It is sad That in a would where you can run your railroad off your smart phone , yet not know the deference between gauge and scale. well back to my VHS to see what Rocky and the Mosse are doing.
@thebeeman posted:I love this discussion but it makes my head hurt. For example, (in jest) What If I was new to the hobby and just purchased a MTH 20-97991 2 bay fish belly hopper car. The inter carton front panel says in bold print AUTHENTICALLY DETAILED O SCALE FREIGHT CARS. My question, How would one know the true scale of this hopper in the carton? Thanks. Tommy
Just because I like throwing fuel on fires: Very, very little of anything MTH makes or what is now also called Atlas Premier, would I call "scale" and not even closely "authentically detailed". Their 50' high cube boxcar is nice and their ES44 isn't tooooo bad but other than that...
They do have a lot of different paint possibilities and that is all many people care about. You can put a diesel livery on a steam engine and it will probably sell well.
And OBTW P48 and fine scale ARE NOT the same thing. P48 just corrects the track gauge and the wheel profile. Many people who go to the trouble of changing that also change many other things but it is not a requirement to be called P48.
On the other hand (horror of horrors) I'm using scale 33" wheels under my Autoracks because no makes P48 28" wheels or trucks.
To make things even MORE fun, a fair number of trolley companies (NOPS, Phila, Pittsburgh, Baltimore) ran wide gauge tracks to preclude steam trains using those tracks.
And, my Third Avenue, DC Transit and Muni (sort of) trolleys are modeled after systems using live center third rails (granted in an conduit/cable in Muni's case)... 
Mitch
@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:To make things even MORE fun, a fair number of trolley companies (NOPS, Phila, Pittsburgh, Baltimore) ran wide gauge tracks to preclude steam trains using those tracks.
And, my Third Avenue, DC Transit and Muni (sort of) trolleys are modeled after systems using live center third rails (granted in an conduit/cable in Muni's case)...
Mitch
Mitch I forgot about the- trolley system 's . in the 19th century prototype track was a mixture of many deferent gauges , until it was standardized at 4'8 1/2' . Even Narrow gauge sometime used 3 rail track , they call it duel gauge
MTH like Lionel has done some very nice scale cars. The one I really like from MTH was the PRR R50B express Reefer. PRR was the only RR that had these, they have unique features like the ends on the roof. I bought a couple of these early on and reviewed them for a 2 rail magazine that was published at the time and also included an article on how to convert it to 2-rail. When I did my reviews, I got the best diagram with dimensions I could find and compared the model (scale) dimensions to the prototype in a table. These cars were about as close as you could get and as good or better that some of the brass versions. And the detail was very fine (as opposed to coarse or crude) on them. they even had PRR style truck sideframes. I have not measured out an MTH fishbelly hopper, but I think it is scale also and a very nice model with fine details.
As mentioned above many of the cars made by the big 2 are not scale and most of the paint jobs are not prototypical. However, bright colors seem to sell well to collectors vs modelers, so they keep doing it.
Years ago, hobby magazines and some manufacturers were more precise in the way hobby equipment was described.
There was no such thing as O or HO scale. There was such a thing as O or HO gauge.
When referring to the scale of HO gauge models, it was referred to as 1:87 scale. When referring to O gauge models, they were 1:48 scale. This, of course, was for standard gauge equipment in which the models were scaled to run on those gauges.
Obviously, in the toy train world for most of the 20th century, referring to “scale” of O gauge trains was usually impossible. What scale is a Lionel 2037 locomotive, for instance? It’s a freelanced model that has no full-sized counterpart. But it runs on O gauge track.
But, over time, the hobby began to accept terms such as HO scale and O scale, replacing the proportion scale nomenclature. It’s simpler, but less precise, for scale modeling.
That’s why I still refer to my 3-rail trains as O gauge trains, not O scale, while I refer to my 1:160 trains as N scale.
