Segregation and passenger service

When the railroads entered southern states the personnel told the black passengers to move to the colored cars. Truman in 1948 had laws saying that Jim Crow rules on railroads must stop but it didn't stop until the Civil Rights act of 1964.

Give it a rest! We are all victims of our experience. We can choose to be positive or re-hash the ugly past. I hope this Forum does not decline into the racial politics. Orange/blue vs. yellow/purple is bad enough.

JMHO, Dave G.

???????   The man asked a civil question about a historical fact of railroad practice and he was given an equally civil and historically correct answer - nothing more. 

I grew up in a segregated state.  As a kid, you don't ask...that is just the way it was.

It was history.   My interest in that era is confined to center baggage door "Jim Crow" combines.  My mother used to visit an aunt riding in the "Jim Crow" combine on a mixed train branch line in Kentucky.  I have modeled one, planning to use one end for coal miners traveling to and from work, and the other for the general public (ladies shopping in white dresses who might not like seats covered with coal dust) to take into the big city. 

You sure went down that road quick,

He was simply talking historical facts and I didn't see any divisive racial issue issue he bought up, he is  just seeking info

When I was a kid (early '60s before the civil rights act) we lived in the south for about 2 years. That sort of thing was common everywhere, even drinking fountains and restrooms, not just railroads. From time to time when things like this are brought up I find myself shocked and offended by it. I find it hard to believe things were this way even though I have seen it with my own eyes. We have come a long way and I think unfortunately we still have a long way to go. It is part of our history, we can't deny that, but we can keep trying to improve things to ensure equality for everyone.

It seems to me this question came up on the MR forums a year or two back. Someone who apparently had good knowledge of the issue said that on some trains crossing from north to south, the seating would be pre-arranged so people didn't have to move - a black passenger taking say the IC from Chicago to Mississippi would be seated in a 'colored only' car at the start of the trip so they didn't have to move. Not sure if that's correct, but it would make sense. Apparently dining cars weren't segregated until they crossed into a southern state, then a divider would be put up or something to separate the races.

"Colored" cars were often very old, I know a number of 19th century passenger cars that are now in museums were only preserved because they were used for black passengers into the 1940's-50's in every day service.

To all thanks for the responses

Santa Fe bought stainless steel Pullman Standard divided chair cars in 1948 for the Texas Chief.  The divider was a curtain instead of a bulkhead, so, after segregation ended, it was easy to convert them for use by all passengers.  

Santa Fe was caught and fined in the 1960's for less obvious segregation.  The El Capitan, Chief, San Francisco Chief (which did not run in southern states) had reserved seats, and Santa Fe's reservation bureau had a code so that a white passenger would not be seated next to a non-white passenger.  It stopped after the citation and fine.

As others have pointed out, it was unfair, it was stopped, and now nobody gives a second thought to sharing seating with another passenger of any race.

Railroads were in some ways ahead of the curve on desegregation.  In 1941 the Supreme Court in Mitchell required railroads to offer first class accommodations to blacks as well as whites.  Some roads met this by desegregating their Pullman service, others by setting up segregated Pullman service, and no doubt others simply ignores the issue as  much as possible.  In 1950 the Supreme Court in Henderson struck down segregation in dining cars.  Neither of these dealt with segregated second class accommodations which was how most blacks travelled, and there was still the restraints imposed by "unofficial segregation rules".

Henderson is an interesting case for the modeler because the different rules would result in a different set up for the diner depending on when during the 1940s was being modeled.  The case actually quotes the different Southern policies in effect at different times during the decade.

I got interested in the history of segregation and the railroads when researching the history of the 1947 Freedom Train.  Many southern towns where the train was scheduled to stop had set up separate times to see the train's displays for the different races, or different lines.  Blacks would have to wait until the whites had seen the train.  When the Government managers of the FT heard this, they told these towns they had to treat blacks and whites the same or the train would not stop there.  Many of the town ignored this warning and kept their segregation policy.  The FT did not stop at those towns.  This was the right thing to do, but considering the times, I thought this was a courageous thing for the Government to do.

Ron

I could tell you alot about this but the monitors of this forum told me about five years ago, it was a no no.

The other Supreme C ourt case, Irene Morgan was the plantiff. I knew both Henderson and Morgan

Al W.

Then there was California. Most public facilities were not segregated pre-1960's, but where you lived was another issue. Since the PE and LARy ran in greater Los Angeles, access wasn't a big problem. Analysis says the Los Angeles riots of 1965/67 were largely related to the loss of the street cars since that's how most of the people in the area got to work.

I believe Detroit/oil companies helped take out the street cars.  Bought them out.   

Freeways started to grow while the tracks were being erased. 

(footnote: my parents were born here in CA in the 30's, Latin descent, as children they were 2nd class citizens in public transportation, etc.)

While I was not old enough to remember real segregation, I still remember seeing two distinctly different drinking fountains at a Sears-type  store as a child.

Here in Ogden we had a  club called  "Porters and Waiters" while considered a black only place for the crews on the RR's who were in town, it became a hot spot and we are still proud of it.

That would be a grossly mistaken assumption.

"Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it."  This part of history can get

political in a hurry, which is not the subject of this forum, something I have to keep

reminding myself, so I don't get off on a tangent (and I am not always successful), and get booted off.  It is all about the trains....

If it remains civil I don't think we will have to worry too much.  If you are interested in more detail with respect to this issue and railroad history I'd recommend the following:

Railroads in the African American experience : a photographic journey – Kornweibel, 2010(edition 2010)

Recollections of a Sleeping Car Porter – Thorne (pseudonym), Fulton - 1892(edition 1892)

Memories of a retired Pullman porter – Turner – 1954

Rising from the rails : Pullman porters and the making of the Black middle class – Tye - 2004

  The first one is curious as far as the subtitle goes.  It is true that there are photographs but it is a written history and I've never understood why the publisher felt the need to tack on the photographic part.  From the standpoint of an overall discussion of the subject and the railroads it is probably the best place to start.

The next two are first person accounts of railroad life and the last one is a history of the Pullman porters both from a railroad as well as a social point of view.  I've read all of them and I think they are all well done.

Hopefully our younger generations are paying attention in history class. And they are teaching some of these things. There a some things that have happened during my lifetime that I would really hate to see repeated.