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Sean, Is the 'noise' issue just confined to the sensor track or is it a PDI bus issue? 

If it's the sensor track, could it be that the electronics in the track are in close proximity to the rails? Maybe the 'noise' is being picked up from the track common or power. This would sort of make sense from what I found with the mains power lead close to the track common and power buses.

I wonder if some sort of shielding or screening for the sensor track circuit board would help?

If it's a PDI bus issue are the cables screened?

Just a few thoughts that might be totally wrong!

Nick

Last edited by Nick12DMC
Nick12DMC posted:

Sean, Is the 'noise' issue just confined to the sensor track or is it a PDI bus issue? 

If it's the sensor track, could it be that the electronics in the track are in close proximity to the rails? Maybe the 'noise' is being picked up from the track common or power. This would sort of make sense from what I found with the mains power lead close to the track common and power buses.

I wonder if some sort of shielding or screening for the sensor track circuit board would help?

If it's a PDI bus issue are the cables screened?

Just a few thoughts that might be totally wrong!

Nick

Honestly I don't know.  Here is a screenshot of the Diagnostic tool they sent me and I used with them on the phone.

It shows all my LCS modules at the top and when you select one its show tons of detail with that module.  So as we ran trains over the track we would refresh and look at the Noise level.  They definitely said that on the tracks not working right that the values were too high.  You can see it shows a lot of information like voltage and what the track command is set too, etc.  That's why I said to press with them and they can probably look at your system too.  They had me send all 10 sensor tracks back to them and then a week later I got them back with no explanation expect they were repaired or replaced according to design specs.  So I have no idea what was done.

They had me selecting certain buttons in the action column at certain times (I can't remember exactly how to use the tool, I was just following instructions).  I think we were clicking the Clear Errors button then clicking Get Status or Get Info.

When I got the tracks back everything worked perfect, but I had not yet hooked any accessories up to the ASC modules in the LCS chain.  When I did they started acting up again.  So I found if I disconnected the Power wires that go to the LCS modules (these are the wires that power the module and relays not the accessories) then the tracks worked again. 

I had all the modules powered in series from one handle on the ZW-L.  When I moved the power/ground for the modules to a separate transformer not connected to the track they all worked again.  I could repeat this failure over and over.  So that was my solution.  There is definitely a weak point in this system.  I just have no idea what it is.

I do have the filter in the last module in the chain per Lionel's instructions but that had no effect. 

The way I understood it was the locomotive passes over the IR sensors and information is read and sent by the track through the PDI bus to the Legacy base, which in turn sends out a normal signal to the engine just as if you were using the legacy remote.  So that signal is getting messed up. 

Lionel was very helpful, but I really don't have a solid conclusion to exactly what was happening.

As a result, anytime I add any LCS module or wire up an accessory to a module, I have to retest all the sensor tracks to verify they still work.  So far they have.

But again not sure why I add to separate the power for the LCS modules to a transformer NOT connected to the track. 

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Nick12DMC posted:

Sean, I have a Sensor Track (the one that is currently installed on the layout) tha Jon kindly sent that was checked out. So I am thinking he would have made sure it was the same as your "fixed" tracks.

Nick

Yup I get it but I think there are other things that can affect the tracks just based on my wiring of the Other LCS modules and how they stopped working even on the ones they sent back to me.    Order the free filter and see if it helps, but it was meant for a different issue for use with the hi-rail app.  But otherwise I would press support telling them it still is not working.  They are fun once they do work correctly.  I think I might do a video showing how I can make it fail just by wiring the LCS module power wires to the same transformer that's also attached to the track.

So you're saying that when you power the LCS modules to the same transformer that has the Legacy signal on it's U terminal, the modules get noise. And when you use a transformer without the 6 volt ac 455 KHz Legacy signal on it's U terminal, the noise goes away? What is the mystery?

Last edited by cjack

I do not add my Legacy signal at the transformer.  I have my LCS devices powered from the B throttle on my ZWL.  My tracks are powered with A and D.  My track power goes through my TIU, then I add my Legacy signal to the track at the power distribution block.  I have had no issues with my LCS devices. I don't know if this would help.

 

Last edited by Miken

Just a small update. Preliminary results appear to support that moving the PDI 12V supply has had positive impact.

I just tried moving the unit from the same power outlet that the Legacy base was connected to another outlet. So it's still on a 60Hz supply at the moment. The seems to have improved reliability greatly. 

Question for Sean,  where is your PDI power supply plugged in relation to your Legacy Base supply?

I am thinking it can't be that simple.....and I need to get everything on the layout reconnected to do a full test. 

Nick

Nick12DMC posted:

Just a small update. Preliminary results appear to support that moving the PDI 12V supply has had positive impact.

I just tried moving the unit from the same power outlet that the Legacy base was connected to another outlet. So it's still on a 60Hz supply at the moment. The seems to have improved reliability greatly. 

Question for Sean,  where is your PDI power supply plugged in relation to your Legacy Base supply?

I am thinking it can't be that simple.....and I need to get everything on the layout reconnected to do a full test. 

Nick

I have all my power in the same power strip.  We tried separating the adapters to different plugs and all that when I was on the phone with Lionel and it did not have any effect. The problem with this issue is it is so random, sometimes you think its fixed by something you did and then all of a sudden it does not work again.

They sent me a new PDI power supply.  Had me try a new legacy base.  Had me try just running the legacy wire from base to track directly instead of through ZW-L.  None of that fixed it.

You are lucky you have just one.  Try diagnosing this with 10! haha

They did want me to keep the PDI cables away from power feeds because I sent them some videos and they saw my wire bundles.

I was about to give up after 2 months of back and forth but then once they sent my tracks back they seemed to work and I also changed from 2 power districts to one and also separated the power feeds for the LCS modules to a different transformer. 

So far everything still works. 

Sean

 

I know what you mean Sean. When I was dealing with the unknown fault with my Legacy base which turned out to be faulty NVRAM. I was getting nowhere as everything was really random. Things are a lot better now with a new 990 thanks to Lionel.

I have the added complication of frequency conversion and if I did away with that I would have to use step-down transformers. Either of which I suspect could be a added source of 'noise'. 

If I do decide to give up(Not in my nature I just keep plugging away at the problem ) that sensor track is going to buy the farm in a dramatic way... I won't touch it but my Wife is going to get her hands on it I may have been spending a bit to much time working on the problem....

Nick

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