Hi All,
Just had a load of LCS goodies arrive. Having problems with the Sensor Track.
I have programmed it as per the manual. However the green LED does not flash when a sensor equipped engine passes over it. I have two sensor equipped engines and I have tried both with the same result.
Double checked automatic cab 2 updates are on by entering ACC 99 and Aux1, 4 but again engines do not trigger green LED.
Any ideas or have I received a faulty unit?
Nick
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You are running on 50Hz AC, right Nick? Which version of the Legacy software in your cab and base? Have you tried more than one cable?
Hi Rudy,
No I run 60Hz AC (12V power supply and pure sine inverter)
I am running software 1.54
I tried a couple of cables and also running the sensor track as the first LCS device from the LCS power supply.
Regards
Nick
>(12V power supply and pure sine inverter)
???
Do you mean 120VAC, or do you mean your track power is 12VAC @ 60 HZ? If the latter, what is the AC frequency on the electrical mains that the command base and LCS power supply is plugged into?
Also, have you tried more than one cable?
230V AC 50Hz(UK mains) to 12V DC power supply powering a 12V DC to 120V AC 60Hz pure sine wave inverter.
I got into the hobby in 2005, I am afraid some of your predecessors were not as up to speed as Mike R and jon Z. etc. There were a number of 50Hz problems with Lionel equipment. My whole layout is powered by U.S. specification 120V AC 60Hz electric as I did not want any nasty surprises (18V AC 60Hz on the track). Certain older TMCC engines acted up on 50Hz.
I tried another LCS cable but the sensor track acts the same.
Regards
Nick
OK, thanks for the clarification.
Have you tested any other LCS devices and if so, which ones? Are they working as expected?
I have the wifi adaptor and a Ser2. I literally just hooked all the LCS bits up today for the first time.
The Wifi adaptor appears to be working in access point mode.I joined my iPhone to it. But I have not tested it any further. Need to join my iPad so I can test with LCS app.
Ser2 with DCS connected but again not had chance to test tonight.
I will test tommorow and let you know.
Thanks for the help Rudy
Nick
I just went through weeks of back and forth with Lionel on this same issue. I have 10 sensor tracks on my layout, wifi module, 4 ASC2, 2 BPC2. I had sensor tracks that did the same as yours. Also ones that would do the wrong command that was programmed, or do the command in both directions when it should not. We tried new legacy Base, new cables (changed from 20 ft to 10 ft), eliminating the ASC2 and BPC2 from the mix, etc.
The final cause : multiple defective sensor tracks. Out of 10 I had on the layout 3 were defective. The problem was that when I got to one and I thought it was bad, I would switch it with another and that one was bad too(dumb luck) so I assumed it was not the tracks since I did not think 2 could be defective. I had to tear up my whole layout to start from the first track and hook up one after another to narrow it down. I was not a happy camper. When I got to one that did not work, I would take the one right before it that I knew did work and try it in that spot and it would work, so I knew it was the track (and not a cable or something). That's a 30% failure rate in my case, not very good. The problem is you don't know if its the track you are putting in, the cable between the tracks or even the output port of the track prior to the one you are putting in. So for each one you have to go step by step looking at 3 things. I also found out from service I was almost at the max modules that the power supply could handle and they thought it might be a low power situation, but they have no solution, as there is no bigger power supply or a way to hook up 2 power supplies. Luckily that was not the issue.
I am using the LCS system to do everything by command, but it seems it was not designed for layouts with a lot of modules. I may need to add another ASC2 so hopefully I won't run short of power.
Apparently the way it works is when the engine passes over the sensor, the track sends the command through the PDI chain back to the Legacy base which then sends out the command to the engine. It would be just like it was coming from the CAB2. A bad track and the commands get all messed up. So if you can do things like blow the whistle from the CAB2 on the same section of track then its not a Base to Engine issue, its a sensor track issue.
I got almost all mine from the last batch that came in, so not sure if there is some issue with the last run of sensor tracks.
My advice is do not permanently put anything down on your layout until you test all commands one by one on each track. Also, apparently there is some hardware issue (they did not share the details) and in some cases you may need a filter (from Lionel) if you have an issue where Record Ready mode drops out before the recording starts. Lionel has a fix, which is a filter you plug into the last module of the chain.
Every LCS module I installed up until the sensor tracks worked perfect. I just spent a month trying to figure out what was happening. Luckily I have a LHS to go exchange tracks but if you are a mail order person, its going to be a bigger pain.
I now have all 10 working.
Interesting...very. Thanks for sharing your experience.
on the power supply, I would guess one could replace the plug in 12 vdc 1 amp wall wart with a bigger one.
The terminating end of daisy chain is probably a resistor across the data pair of wires.
Hi Sean, Thanks very much for the info. Just my luck to get a duff unit. As you say returns will no doubt be interesting here from the UK.
Rudy, Did some testing this afternoon. SER2 works perfectly. Wifi also works great, as a aside this is very cool
. I swapped the LCS cables around and they all worked fine with the Wifi and SER2. Still no joy on the sensor track.
Nick
Nick, I understand you are in touch with Lionel customer service, which is what I was about to suggest. Our test layout has a dozen SensorTracks on it, we haven't seen these issues--but something is not right. We are looking into this here in Engineering.
Thanks Rudy,
yes I am in touch with Service. I have just got a procedure to try from them. I will give it a go tommorow. Been at work since 05:30 today and it's getting late here in the UK.
Nick
I did wonder about the cables in regard to the data. I wondered how many 20 foot cables one could run in series. Not my issue yet, but I do have two 10 and two 20 foot ones in series. Once I figure where I want these sensor tracks, I could use some shorter more direct runs if necessary.
Nick, I understand you are in touch with Lionel customer service, which is what I was about to suggest. Our test layout has a dozen SensorTracks on it, we haven't seen these issues--but something is not right. We are looking into this here in Engineering.
Just two quick points going back to Sean and Chuck's earlier posts. Regarding the LCS power supply, so far no single LCS installation has exceeded the power capacity of the included LCS power supply. We do have a solution if and when this happens. It will take the form of an in-line power adapter. Adding a larger power supply at the end of the chain is not a solution, the current capacity of the LCS PDI cables becomes the limiting factor. This is not yet available, but should any installation hit the power limit we'll support you with a beta unit.
Also, the High Rail app isn't causing any noise problems--that is a hardware, not a software issue.
Rudy couple of questions/comments.
1. How do we know when they exceed the power supply, what are the symptoms? I plan to add some more ASC2 Modules but hesitant because everything's working now and don't want issues again.
2. The noise comment I got directly from the High Rail website about the filter fix, so that's what they said was the reason I needed the filter.
Thanks
Also, the High Rail app isn't causing any noise problems--that is a hardware, not a software issue.
Sean, the current draw for each LCS module is printed in the Specifications section of that product's Owner's Manual, the LCS power supply is conservatively rated at 1 amp.
I'm in touch with the High Rail developer pretty regularly, we'll see if we can be a little clearer in our communication. I just don't want folks to get the impression that High Rail is causing a problem--as Marty says, the noise issue some users have experienced happens regardless of wether High Rail is running or not.
Thanks MartyE and Railsounds for clarifying that the "noise" issue is a LCS hardware issue and not a High Rail software issue. The post on the High Rail site - mentioned by Sean -has been updated. Hopefully it helps.
I did wonder about the cables in regard to the data. I wondered how many 20 foot cables one could run in series. Not my issue yet, but I do have two 10 and two 20 foot ones in series. Once I figure where I want these sensor tracks, I could use some shorter more direct runs if necessary.
I originally had all 20ft cables between the sensor tracks. I used 20 ft's because at the time I bought everything I was not sure where the tracks would be and how far I would need to run the cables. So I figured I was just use the longest ones and coil up the extra cable under the layout. One of the troubleshooting steps I did was replace all the 20's with 10 ft's. That did not make a difference so I'm thinking length is not a factor.
Sean, the current draw for each LCS module is printed in the Specifications section of that product's Owner's Manual, the LCS power supply is conservatively rated at 1 amp.
I'm in touch with the High Rail developer pretty regularly, we'll see if we can be a little clearer in our communication. I just don't want folks to get the impression that High Rail is causing a problem--as Marty says, the noise issue some users have experienced happens regardless of wether High Rail is running or not.
Thanks for getting that clarified. The website did not mention the hardware was the cause of the noise, but I see they have updated it now. Regardless, the filter resolved my issue with the record ready mode drop.
That did not make a difference so I'm thinking length is not a factor.
That did not make a difference so I'm thinking length is not a factor.
I'm a little wary of the connectors. Making sure they are plugged in all the way. Not saying, but in general, that's another variable.
Just a update guys.
Tried the tests requested by Lionel Service and it appears track is faulty. Have to return to US dealer.
Nick
Just a update guys.
Tried the tests requested by Lionel Service and it appears track is faulty. Have to return to US dealer.
Nick
Hey Nick,
Not sure where you purchased it, but in the future if you want to buy any other LCS stuff or anything for that matter, if you buy through Nicholas Smith I can go there and test it for you before they ship it so you are sure you don't get a defective one.
Hi All,
Just a update to the Sensor Track saga. Returned to the U.S.A and just received replacement yesterday.
The new one behaves better. However I have noted that it sometimes stops working and won't flash the green Led if a sensor equiped loco runs over it.
However I have done a bit of experimentation and found if I run the Legacy Base and LCS power supply from a 50Hz source it works correctly with no issues! As noted above my layout runs from a 60Hz Pure-Sine wave source. Which is the same or better than the USA mains.
50Hz has been pretty toxic for Lionel equipment in the past which is why I have avoided powering my layout from it.
Very weird although the 1.54 software which is a 50Hz fix obviously appears to work.
Although I kept the track powered with 18V AC 60Hz.
I wonder what is frequency dependent in that sensor track?
Any thoughts on this Rudy or jon?
Nick
Nick,
I assume that in your 60Hz Environment the earth ground connection from the Legacy base might be insufficient, as you have in between a DC source.
I suggest, if not yet done, that you use the pin 5 of the Legacy base to create an ''earth ground'' in your 60Hz environment. Then try it again connecting the base only to your 60Hz environment.
I have a 60Hz Installation for test purposes going enroute of converters 50 HzAC->DC->60HzAC that works proper in a complete separated environment only with an additional pin 5 connected ''earth ground''.
Regards
Albrecht
Hi Albrecht,
Thanks for the information. I'll give that a try.
I tried my most troublesome older TMCC loco (missile launch from around 1999/2000 and it went nuts as normal when the base is run from a 50Hz environment. It works fine on 60Hz. All the Legacy engines I have tried work fine on 50Hz.
Regards
Nick
Nick,
to amend: all TMCC engines with Odyssey equiped with a motor driver labeled ''FM3'' will only work proper in 60Hz environment, unfortunately not in 50Hz environment.
Recently I checked the layout of a friend who had problems with his TMCC engines. Interestingly the only Legacy equiped engine worked well. His earth ground was missing, as he used a step down transformer with only two pins.So, the earth ground from the TMCC base to the wall plug was missed. I added the missing earth ground and that helped to operate the TMCC engines properly. As an alternative I tried a replacement ''earth ground'' via pin 5 that helped as well.
Regards
Albrecht
Albrecht,
Thanks very much for the info. We have been trying for years to be able to identify the board versions that cause trouble on 50Hz.
I can add the 6-18462 missile launch engine with ACDR and 0D0 RL2C does not like 50Hz.
Taking on board what you have said regards earth ground. Up until installing the sensor track now I have not had any problems. My inverter and DC supply have earth continuity from the U.S. Outlet to the U.K. plug earth pin. I have always been very careful regards earth ground continuity.
After your suggestion. I added a bypass for the earth ground direct from the Legacy Base to the house earth ground. Now sensor track works! 
Very strange.
I will try the pin 5 tip as well when I get hold of a RS232 9Pin 3 way tap.
Thanks Again
Nick
Not too strange, the earth ground wire in the house may be less present as an antenna to the layout than the extra wire directly from pin #5. The extra wire being at least an additional antenna wire as well.
I have found too that my SC-2s are now reliable with a pin #5 earth ground wire above them. BTW, the SC-2s on a separate power supply also benefitted from having their COM terminals connected to the U terminal of the track (outside rails)
Nick,
happy to hear that the pin 5 connection works .
Now of interest is: did you disconnect the earth ground en route of the inverter and DC supply or do you run now both connections in parallel ?
The background is: I metered the output between pin 5 and outside track with an oscilloscope of my Legacy base; the signal was very strong with the existing earth ground, but I had problems with three Legacy equiped engines; they lost signal passing several different spots of my layout and stopped. Additional ground pads did not help; I made trials with different earth ground connections, at the end I added an additional second earth ground Connection in parallel to a different wall plug that degradated the Signal strength remarkably and that helped. The three 'problem engines' passed the critical spots as well as the other ones !
So my suggestion is:in case you could meter the output of the pin 5 solution against the 'old' solution, try it and let us know the result.
Regards
Albrecht
And now tonight sensor track does not work again...
.
Hmm I am beginning to think I can't be bothered with the sensor track. Everything else works very nicely.
I have a small Pocket Scope so I will have a look at the signal.
Nick
Nick,
Its not just you. I have been having the same issues with my sensor tracks. I have been working with Lionel engineering. They sent me a diagnostic program and we worked through it on the phone for an hour and a half. They are trying to replicate it. I just sent all 10 of my sensor tracks to California for them to look at and am waiting to hear back. After we ran through the diagnostics they know what the issue is (noise), they just don't know where its coming from and are trying to replicate it. That's one reason I went with one manufacturer. Lionel ZW-L, Lionel LCS, Lionel Legacy and All Lionel Legacy engines. I figured I would not run into issues like this if I stuck with one manufacturer, but oh well. They will work one moment and then not the next. Each time it can be different on how they act.
Stay tuned, hopefully they will figure it out or come up with a solution.
After the thread here, I minimized the lengths of my sensor cables...just to be efficient. And I left a 20 foot cable on the output end sensor not connected to anything. My sort of characteristic impedance termination. I've not ever had issues with the five sensor tracks though.
We shall see...but they're working and fun.
BTW, I have recently installed a speedometer circuit card with four sensor pairs of pickups. I had trouble at first getting them all to agree the they were getting proper light for the passing train to block and trigger the timer.
The issue turned out to be the LED spot light track lighting. I replaced two of them where the sensor LEDs were located with halogen lights and all the issues went away. They work perfectly now.
What your eye thinks it sees is not necessarily what a sensor sees.
Sean, Electrical noise might make sense. Glad your making the phone calls, hour and a half on the the phone to California from the UK would cost a fortune! I hope they have Skype Or FaceTime 
Chuck, That's a good point. I thought about lighting yesterday but they are halogens.
But I'll try during the day with the lights off.
Cheers Nick
Sean, Electrical noise might make sense. Glad your making the phone calls, hour and a half on the the phone to California from the UK would cost a fortune! I hope they have Skype Or FaceTime
Chuck, That's a good point. I thought about lighting yesterday but they are halogens.
But I'll try during the day with the lights off.
Cheers Nick
I'm not sure if they were referring to electrical noise or RF noise. But hopefully they can replicate my problem in CA and we will see what they say
Just an update. My sensor tracks issues have been resolved! All 10 of my tracks now work correctly. I sent them to the engineering team in California. They shipped them back to me, but no note or anything in the box. I contacted Lionel support to see what happened and they said that all they told them was the sensor tracks were repaired or replaced to meet design specifications. So after 3 months of trying to get these to work, it's finally resolved. Obviously it was something with the tracks themselves as that's all I sent to them. We previously tried, cables, power supply, etc, but in the end it was the tracks. I don't know if they were just defective from a manufacturing defect or if there is some design issue with them. The screws that hold the cover plate on the bottom look like they had been removed and replaced as some were a little stripped, but again I have no information on what was actually done so I'm just guessing.
If anyone has the same issue (sensor tracks acting erratic or not working at all), the only resolution is to send them to Lionel as just exchanging them for a replacement (like I did 3 times) may not solve it as the replacement you are getting might have the same issue. Remember, all mine were brand new sealed when I got them and never worked from day 1 when they were all hooked up together.
Nick, I would contact Lionel. Maybe they will send you a shipping label since there must be some issue with them.
Thanks to Lionel for putting the effort in to replicate my system and correct the issue. I'm very happy now my entire LCS system works.
Hi Sean,
Thank you for the update. Yes I'll contact Lionel again and see if I can send my track back to them.
Best Regards
Nick
Here's an update.
Jon Z kindly sent me a known lab tested sensor track so I could trouble shoot my system.
This has proved quiet a long process as it was hard to find a consistent fault. One minute things would work the next they would not.
However I eventually found a repeatable problem with the wifi adaptor and LCS app I could not save changes to engine data. I then tried the same thing with a direct USB/serial cable connected to a PC running LSU software. I had the same issue with a error "Base NVM update failed".
Tried slowing the serial connection speed in LSU but got the same error.
It appears that the problem is with the Base Non-Volitile RAM. This is accessed by the sensor track to update the engine roaster.
Jon describes this as a subtle hardware error. So I now have a RA to send my 990 set back for repair.
Nick
Further update folks.
Great customer service from Lionel. Received my Legacy back from repair today. Actually it's a brand new set.
Well this has improved things greatly. I can get the sensor track to work perfectly on a small carpet central loop. This was not possible before.
However back on the layout it becomes unreliable. It is not triggering the crossing signal nor is it uploading data from the loco reliably. Sometimes it does not include the loco name but uploads the engine number and Legacy info.
You can also see this when using the IPad app.
Anyone else come across this?
Nick
More testing this morning.
Here's a rough sketch of the outer loop of our layout.
I have disconnected the inner loop at the 072 switch. So all I am dealing with is the outer loop as pictured.
I have disconnected all the bus feed wires both power and ground. I then connected the Powermaster to one drop with the Legacy base connection to the ground.
When powered directly from one drop as described the sensor track works perfectly.
If I reconnect just one of the power or ground feeds sensor track operation becomes unreliable. Sometimes not reading a loco and sometimes showing the loco passed in the opposite direction than it actually did so not triggering crossing signal I have it set up to do.
It's almost like when the bus wire is connected it causes interference to the sensor track. I have checked continuity of both the ground and power bus. And that there is no continuity between them.
It's a pretty basic set up so its a bit strange.
Anyone spot anything I may have missed?
Nick
Nick,
The sensor tracks definitely are finicky. I had all the same issues as you. Then I sent all 10 to Lionel and got them back and they said they repaired them. I put them on my layout and all worked great. BUT then I added a few accessories to an ASC and the power for that ASC was on the same transformer because I have a ground line that ties everything into it around the layout for accessories. They started acting crazy again. I separated the power for that ASC to another transformer and they all worked again. There seems to be some issue with these things and interference with the wiring. Mind you there is nothing crazy or extensive on my wiring, just basic feeds. And I followed the instructions with each module on wiring. Every time I add anything to the main transformer that feeds track power I have to retest all the sensor tracks to verify they still work.
I originally had 2 power districts and reverted to a single one.
I also added the 2 Culvert loaders to an ASC one day. Each ground was assigned a different port on the ASC, but they both had a common power at the ASC (each bank of 4 uses the same Power). The loaders started to act up, would not work, or come on when they weren't suppose to and sensor tracks started acting up again. I separated the common on separate banks on the ASC and all returned to normal.
I have no idea what's going on but there definitely some kind of issue with the common and the LCS system. Its like signals are back feeding or causing weird interference when they should not.
Try this.
Disconnect all your feeds and just do 1 single feed to power the layout. If that does not work, try eliminating your powermaster out of the mix and just connect the powerhouse directly. Basically what I am saying is just make sure the only thing connected to the track is a single ground and power and the legacy base. Make sure the transformer common has no other things attached to it.
If my theory is correct then the tracks will start to work correctly. Then add back in one piece at a time.
Like I said above, I had to change some wiring around in order for some of these LCS modules to work and the sensor tracks to not act up even though I should not have had to do that according to the instructions. Everything is working today but it was a struggle and a lot of trial and error with the wiring.
I now keep everything else on a separate ZW-L and only track power on a separate one
Its not just your setup. Let us know if you make any progress.
Thanks Sean, Doing as you suggest with one wire for power and one for ground (train set style) with no bus lines or anything else connected, the sensor track works fine.
I can see adding DCS and my inner loop back into the layout is going to be "fun".....
Makes me feel a bit better I am not alone having issues.
Atb
Nick
Sean, Here's a update. Spent several hours over the last few days experimenting.
You know when you suddenly have a brainwave as to the possible cause of a problem. Well tonight I was crawling around under the layout and noticed a mains power cable (230V AC) that runs to a surround sound, DVD player, and PlayStation that are mounted on a shelf under the far end of the layout. With work I do a lot of industrial installations (mechanical/fabrication)but I pay attention to the "Sparkies" and they seperate mains power, low voltage and data in different containment. Data is never put near power as you can get "crosstalk".
I switched off and disconnected the power lead and then reconnected the layout bus wiring. I left the inner loop disconnected. I then powered up the layout and the sensor track worked perfectly!
However if I connect the inner loop the sensor track acts up again. 
The power is isolated between the inner and outer loops by the filler piece between the two switches. However the common/ground is not isolated. I have seperate common/ground buses for each loop on the layout.
I think I will run my Dremel through the two outer rails as if I disconnect the inner loop everything works correctly. So both loops are completely electrically isolated from each other.
Glad to be making progress
Nick
There's no reason in the world that I can think you need a separate ground. Most layouts I run across run a common ground all around, AAMOF TMCC/Legacy depends on a common ground all around the layout! Something else is in play here...
Thanks John. I already had a seperate ground bus wire per loop when the layout was constructed. Obviously it doesn't do much as the two loops are connected on the ground side by the track.
I understand what your saying so before I resort to the Dremel I will switch over to one common ground bus for both loops. Will see what happens then.
Nick
Somewhere in e-train software thread a terminator came into play to eliminate noise in LCS devices. Much like a computer SCSI system needs. Jon Z was in on it. I don't know if it is unique to the e-train system only.
Troll through that thread.
What is the sensor track connected to? a WiFi?
Ok, it's the high rail app developer here is the terminator Lionel Cust service can send
Hi Carl, Thanks for the info. I only have 1 sensor track and the Wifi module hooked up at the moment.
I definitely think "noise" is the problem. As removing that mains cable made a big difference. I can see the sensor track output with the LCS app. So I can see when it starts to malfunction as it scrambles the engine number and or name and direction of travel.
I think there is another issue with the inner loop. But that needs further investigation.
Nick
Hi Nick,
GRJ didn't say if he made any. he has the numbers for the connectors to make your own terminator. It may be worth a call to Lionel and get one to plug into the WiFi port as that's the "last" device in your configuration.
I can't see anything obvious with the inner loop power configuration. Does it have another dedicated brick and powermaster?
Nick,
tell me more about the crossover switch pairs. Remotes fired with SC-2, command, remotes with control wires wired to together to one manual controller to fire simultaneously, etc.
Also, grab your meter and check the phasing of the two loops powered via the center rail to center rail. Low voltage or 34-36 volts?
Carl, Inner loop is configured exactly the same as the outer. With it's own Powerhouse 135 and Powermaster.
Crossover switches are setup as they came out of the box. They are non-command remote type. But I have not got any further. I have a brand new ASC that eventually I may wire in or upgrade the switches to command with ERR kits.
I am pretty sure things are in phase but I will double check when I get home later on.
Nick
Moonman posted:Hi Nick,
GRJ didn't say if he made any. he has the numbers for the connectors to make your own terminator. It may be worth a call to Lionel and get one to plug into the WiFi port as that's the "last" device in your configuration.
I can't see anything obvious with the inner loop power configuration. Does it have another dedicated brick and powermaster?
Why not post the pin numbers and the size of the capacitor here?
If I knew the size of the capacitor, I'd post it. I'm also wondering what that little wire sticking out is for, do you suppose that's just a handle to yank the plug out?
I think that was just a handle. I remember thinking it odd that the termination is a capacitor. Not a transmission line characteristic impedance termination...like 100 ohms or something.
Usually, the termination would be a resistor, and perhaps a blocking cap. I guess the cap did the job...
Carl, Center rail to centre rail reading is 1.1V .
Did a further bit of testing. Again just with the outer loop. The sensor track is a lot more reliable now the mains cable that ran under the layout is disconnected. Now and again it will throw a wobble and will normaly show the track was crossed in wrong direction on the iPad compared with the actual direction the loco crossed the track. It will also occasionally garble the engine number.
The more I watch this the more I am convinced it's "noise".
I will request a terminator for the track from Lionel.
Thanks for the advice guys.
Nick
Nick12DMC posted:Carl, Center rail to centre rail reading is 1.1V .
Did a further bit of testing. Again just with the outer loop. The sensor track is a lot more reliable now the mains cable that ran under the layout is disconnected. Now and again it will throw a wobble and will normaly show the track was crossed in wrong direction on the iPad compared with the actual direction the loco crossed the track. It will also occasionally garble the engine number.
The more I watch this the more I am convinced it's "noise".
I will request a terminator for the track from Lionel.
Thanks for the advice guys.
Nick
Its definitely noise interference. I proved that with Lionel Engineers on the phone with me when they sent me a diagnostic program and we could see it while the trains were running over the sensor tracks and they confirmed that was why they were acting weird. Finding the cause is another issue. The filter from Lionel was for a very specific issue and not related to this, but its free from Lionel and can't hurt adding it. It just gets plugged into the last LCS component in the chain. It has a little pigtail on it just to help pulling it out and is not an antenna or does anything. Looks like a small capacitor just attached to an LCS connector.
I would press it with Lionel support like I did and get the engineers in California to help you and try to diagnose if you have no success.
Sean
If someone has this filter, can you tell me what the value of the capacitor is?
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...nsmission-terminator
The last time we talked about this we came up with .01uF and is connected between pin #4 and pin #5.
Sean, Is the 'noise' issue just confined to the sensor track or is it a PDI bus issue?
If it's the sensor track, could it be that the electronics in the track are in close proximity to the rails? Maybe the 'noise' is being picked up from the track common or power. This would sort of make sense from what I found with the mains power lead close to the track common and power buses.
I wonder if some sort of shielding or screening for the sensor track circuit board would help?
If it's a PDI bus issue are the cables screened?
Just a few thoughts that might be totally wrong!
Nick
Nick,
Are you converting to 60hz or dropping the voltage only and using 50hz?
Nick12DMC posted:Sean, Is the 'noise' issue just confined to the sensor track or is it a PDI bus issue?
If it's the sensor track, could it be that the electronics in the track are in close proximity to the rails? Maybe the 'noise' is being picked up from the track common or power. This would sort of make sense from what I found with the mains power lead close to the track common and power buses.
I wonder if some sort of shielding or screening for the sensor track circuit board would help?
If it's a PDI bus issue are the cables screened?
Just a few thoughts that might be totally wrong!
Nick
Honestly I don't know. Here is a screenshot of the Diagnostic tool they sent me and I used with them on the phone.
It shows all my LCS modules at the top and when you select one its show tons of detail with that module. So as we ran trains over the track we would refresh and look at the Noise level. They definitely said that on the tracks not working right that the values were too high. You can see it shows a lot of information like voltage and what the track command is set too, etc. That's why I said to press with them and they can probably look at your system too. They had me send all 10 sensor tracks back to them and then a week later I got them back with no explanation expect they were repaired or replaced according to design specs. So I have no idea what was done.
They had me selecting certain buttons in the action column at certain times (I can't remember exactly how to use the tool, I was just following instructions). I think we were clicking the Clear Errors button then clicking Get Status or Get Info.
When I got the tracks back everything worked perfect, but I had not yet hooked any accessories up to the ASC modules in the LCS chain. When I did they started acting up again. So I found if I disconnected the Power wires that go to the LCS modules (these are the wires that power the module and relays not the accessories) then the tracks worked again.
I had all the modules powered in series from one handle on the ZW-L. When I moved the power/ground for the modules to a separate transformer not connected to the track they all worked again. I could repeat this failure over and over. So that was my solution. There is definitely a weak point in this system. I just have no idea what it is.
I do have the filter in the last module in the chain per Lionel's instructions but that had no effect.
The way I understood it was the locomotive passes over the IR sensors and information is read and sent by the track through the PDI bus to the Legacy base, which in turn sends out a normal signal to the engine just as if you were using the legacy remote. So that signal is getting messed up.
Lionel was very helpful, but I really don't have a solid conclusion to exactly what was happening.
As a result, anytime I add any LCS module or wire up an accessory to a module, I have to retest all the sensor tracks to verify they still work. So far they have.
But again not sure why I add to separate the power for the LCS modules to a transformer NOT connected to the track.
gunrunnerjohn posted:If someone has this filter, can you tell me what the value of the capacitor is?
Unfortunately mine is on the last sensor track in my chain and its already ballasted to the layout so I can't look.
Sean, I have a Sensor Track (the one that is currently installed on the layout) tha Jon kindly sent that was checked out. So I am thinking he would have made sure it was the same as your "fixed" tracks.
Nick
Nick12DMC posted:Sean, I have a Sensor Track (the one that is currently installed on the layout) tha Jon kindly sent that was checked out. So I am thinking he would have made sure it was the same as your "fixed" tracks.
Nick
Yup I get it but I think there are other things that can affect the tracks just based on my wiring of the Other LCS modules and how they stopped working even on the ones they sent back to me. Order the free filter and see if it helps, but it was meant for a different issue for use with the hi-rail app. But otherwise I would press support telling them it still is not working. They are fun once they do work correctly. I think I might do a video showing how I can make it fail just by wiring the LCS module power wires to the same transformer that's also attached to the track.
So you're saying that when you power the LCS modules to the same transformer that has the Legacy signal on it's U terminal, the modules get noise. And when you use a transformer without the 6 volt ac 455 KHz Legacy signal on it's U terminal, the noise goes away? What is the mystery?
I do not add my Legacy signal at the transformer. I have my LCS devices powered from the B throttle on my ZWL. My tracks are powered with A and D. My track power goes through my TIU, then I add my Legacy signal to the track at the power distribution block. I have had no issues with my LCS devices. I don't know if this would help.
Moonman posted:Nick,
Are you converting to 60hz or dropping the voltage only and using 50hz?
Converting to 60Hz.
I am going to try running the PDI 12V DC power supply from a separate step down transformer. Just in case that's the source of the noise. As its DC it is not frequency dependent.
Nick
Just a small update. Preliminary results appear to support that moving the PDI 12V supply has had positive impact.
I just tried moving the unit from the same power outlet that the Legacy base was connected to another outlet. So it's still on a 60Hz supply at the moment. The seems to have improved reliability greatly.
Question for Sean, where is your PDI power supply plugged in relation to your Legacy Base supply?
I am thinking it can't be that simple.....and I need to get everything on the layout reconnected to do a full test.
Nick
Nick12DMC posted:Just a small update. Preliminary results appear to support that moving the PDI 12V supply has had positive impact.
I just tried moving the unit from the same power outlet that the Legacy base was connected to another outlet. So it's still on a 60Hz supply at the moment. The seems to have improved reliability greatly.
Question for Sean, where is your PDI power supply plugged in relation to your Legacy Base supply?
I am thinking it can't be that simple.....and I need to get everything on the layout reconnected to do a full test.
Nick
I have all my power in the same power strip. We tried separating the adapters to different plugs and all that when I was on the phone with Lionel and it did not have any effect. The problem with this issue is it is so random, sometimes you think its fixed by something you did and then all of a sudden it does not work again.
They sent me a new PDI power supply. Had me try a new legacy base. Had me try just running the legacy wire from base to track directly instead of through ZW-L. None of that fixed it.
You are lucky you have just one. Try diagnosing this with 10! haha
They did want me to keep the PDI cables away from power feeds because I sent them some videos and they saw my wire bundles.
I was about to give up after 2 months of back and forth but then once they sent my tracks back they seemed to work and I also changed from 2 power districts to one and also separated the power feeds for the LCS modules to a different transformer.
So far everything still works.
Sean
I know what you mean Sean. When I was dealing with the unknown fault with my Legacy base which turned out to be faulty NVRAM. I was getting nowhere as everything was really random. Things are a lot better now with a new 990 thanks to Lionel.
I have the added complication of frequency conversion and if I did away with that I would have to use step-down transformers. Either of which I suspect could be a added source of 'noise'.
If I do decide to give up(Not in my nature I just keep plugging away at the problem ) that sensor track is going to buy the farm in a dramatic way... I won't touch it but my Wife is going to get her hands on it! I may have been spending a bit to much time working on the problem....
Nick
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