I have been trying to figure out how to loop my fast Track up a mountain for 2 or three loops. Then to a reversing loop for the return trip. I have seen where most start with 60 then to 48 and 36. But could you not start with 48 and go to 036 since its only 2 loops?? Also what height and grade do I have to work with??? I thought I would carve the mountain out of blue foam....
Thanks Folks
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As for grades, you're looking @ 5-6% max. Prototypical grades are limited to 2% max.
Yes you can go 048-036 for two loops. Two vs three will limit the height you climb. I would suggest 060-048 for two loops rather than the 048-036.
Two questions. How long are your trains, and are you using locomotive w/ speed control? Those two criteria as much as anything should limit your grade.
A loop of 048 followed by a loop of 036 @ 5% gives you 13" give/or take.
060 w/ 5.5" rise is 2.9%
048 w/ 5.5" rise is 3.6%
036 w/ 5.5" rise is 4.8%
From what I see you're looking at either an 11" or 16.5" rise. Two loops, or three. Your call.....
Thanks for the info. I will be pulling 4 cars of the PE and the engine is the lion Chief> I will be placing this on a 8x8x4 "L" shape for the the corner of my living room for the Christmas layout. My idea was a mountain in the corner with a reversing loop at the top on the left and one on the bottom on the right. That corner piece is a 4x4 section that I could do a 060 at the bottom but for adding another line of track I thought if I did a 048 to 036 or even to a 031 at the top. That would get me the elevation. Any idea's????? Thanks Doug
Hi Dougie,
How are you? I am surprised that you would want to make a do over for the holidays after the expansion last year. Well, you have touched on project dear to me.
I started this type of project before, first for a 4' wide table, then to be portable modules to sit on LCCA modules. I learned a few things that can definitely help you. First, though, a couple of photos a of the unfished portable pieces that will work well with how you set-up and break-down and store your holiday layout.
Some lessons:
The train going around a mountain is the desired effect - multiple loops around require too much space and do not provide a great enough bang for the work for more turns.
The base is 4' x 4'. I used 1/4" luan for the base. It is not sturdy enough. Home Depot has 4' x 4' pre-cut project sheets. Use plywood of a thickness that's not too heavy. This was the failure point.
I used a cookie cutter style for the sub-roadbed and blocked it at elevation points with beveled tops on the blocks equal to the grade/slope. This worked well.
The mountain was of two countours. One has a slot to fit together like the old Plasticville pine trees. I glued a piece of dowel to top inside and put a removable screw eye to provide a lift point for placing and removing the mountain. The screw is finger tight and is removed after installation. later supports were installed as stiffeners.
The mountain is to have aluminum window screen stapled to the contours and shaped. Then I am going to squirt Great Stuff on the screen and carve it. This stuff gets hard and makes a nice shell, but it is work to carve it. (more on that later if you want). I got this technique from a Dave Frary book. The screen would have followed the roadbed edge at sat on it, with the very bottom undecorated. The outside of the spiral would have foamed and carved to roadbed height.
The other catch is exiting the mountain in the direction that you want to go. You can see that it required me to put some straights in at the bottom and create a tunnel.
This version was a mix of O36 & 048 FasTrack to get the angles correct for the exit.
It rises to ~ 8".
I also made the reverse loops fit on a 4' x 4' so that the North Pole (elevated section) could also be portable.
So, do want to work something like this on to your L-shaped base from last year? here's what it would have looked like in a 4' x 12'.
Carl, how steep is the grade for that 8" rise?
DoubleDAZ posted:Carl, how steep is the grade for that 8" rise?
4.3% The train declines a little fast when it's set at a constant speed to make the climb to just run the line unattended, but it doesn't derail. (Berk Jr. Polar set)
Dougie,
Take a look at these - 8.5" elevation. eats up a lot of space that your use for scenery and stuff.
Moonman posted:4.3% The train declines a little fast when it's set at a constant speed to make the climb to just run the line unattended, but it doesn't derail. (Berk Jr. Polar set)
Is that generally the reason people tend to object to grades higher than 2-3%? I've read a lot here and I still don't know just what a real-life acceptable grade would be for my 2012 and later MTH RailKing engines. 
Modern trains can do fairly steep grades, obviously it's a bit hard on them if you're pulling a lot of cars. Bill Henning's Christmas Tree trains were running up an 8.3% grade with three lighted passenger cars pulled by the conventional semi-scale PE locomotive. He did have to do a motor replacement during the Christmas display season. 
Thanks, John. I wouldn't go over 5% and I intend to run trains with no more than 7 cars, though I might push it to 10 if the engines can handle them and the grade. Right now the design calls for 2.7% and 3%. I am working on a Christmas layout though that this thread has me thinking about, that's why I ask.
Gentlemen...Thank you so much for all your info. I think that I will try the moon man layout. I have never had the same layout for the last 6 years. When I get home to Tennessee I will post the picture of the start up...Dougie...
Dougie,
Here is an annotated track plan to identify the smalls and one 5" hidden by the elevated track.
I had thought of creating a viaduct from the mountain to the North Pole switch by gluing two pieces of 2" foam together and standing it on end. Carve relief for the track on the top and create the concrete/brick railing. Carve out the arches. Then use brick paper on the sides and under. Another method would be to use a straight edge and pencil to carve the mortar joints for the bricks and just paint the foam.
Lots of work. but it would look good. I am sure trestles alone would look good. I like the MTH set - 40-1134 on small blocks for height adjustment. They are 6 1/2".
perhaps the trolley under the tree in a circle?
Thanks Great info!!!
Yes the viaduct is what I thought I would do coming off the mountain till it hit the curve going be hind the tree...If I put the tree there this year as I have thoughts of a village or siding there off the base of the mountain......Any thoughts on that??
perhaps you can use the village as the North Pole on the elevated reverse loop and keep the tree.
Take a look at this: I used wood, but you could use a piece of insulation board shaped like the elevated North Pole reverse loop.
I extended the 0 level reverse loop. Now you can keep the tree centered and we can put whatever you like on the inside of it.
I'll see what I can fit if you like this idea. Like another train, trolley loop. A siding may fit off of the back run under the North Pole.
Anyway, I wanted to create some space for you.
So IF I am following you, The mountain that the reversing top loop is on is gone? or shorted? Its just elevated?
You can probably still fit the mountain in, but the program Carl used didn't put it in, just the track elevation grade
Well I could Build a flat mountain there as I did last year and a tunnel under it for the other loop.
I don't think you have the same room as me(common curse,right?) but my layout is not a true spiral but more of a constant spiral...using O72/84 Fastrack
Al
Dougie fresh posted:So IF I am following you, The mountain that the reversing top loop is on is gone? or shorted? Its just elevated?
No, it is still there. I moved it over, gray colored track, so that you could see all of the lower track. Sorry for putting it up that way. I didn't want to confuse you.
I am having a hard time fitting the inside O31 like last year's. Siding will be no problem, the trolley yes.
Still a work in progress...
Ok, a new version with the streets loop at the North Pole and an 031 Loop under the tree. This version needs a small triangle in the front.
Yes this will work. I think I will not have the tree in it this year so the super streets will be there around a village or a siding with stuff or two. The top loop I will put a small x-mas tree there like in the PE movie..
Ok, then here is the track plan. I don't know about streets fitting in the center. The mountain climb scenery will be close to O31 loop.
You see where I had to hang in the inside turn in the front over the inside corner.
This is a tight fit, so work that out with the mock-up. Any more changes, let me know.
After looking at it allllllllllllllllll..I think I will use the expanded loop and may put a siding in there, but make this one this year a story. I'll put the boys home from PE below and the top loop will be the NP with a tree in the center and buildings around it. The train will circle the tree as in the PE movie then back around the mountain and home. I have had sooooooooooooooo much on my layouts in the past I thought maybe less is more this year...Oh.. I have one of Lionel's pylons with Santa on top that circles.. I saw that a guy a few years ago build a tree around it and looked like Santa circling....I'll try and make it.....Thanks for all your help...
Moonman posted:Hi Dougie,
How are you? I am surprised that you would want to make a do over for the holidays after the expansion last year. Well, you have touched on project dear to me.
I started this type of project before, first for a 4' wide table, then to be portable modules to sit on LCCA modules. I learned a few things that can definitely help you. First, though, a couple of photos a of the unfished portable pieces that will work well with how you set-up and break-down and store your holiday layout.
Some lessons:
The train going around a mountain is the desired effect - multiple loops around require too much space and do not provide a great enough bang for the work for more turns.
The base is 4' x 4'. I used 1/4" luan for the base. It is not sturdy enough. Home Depot has 4' x 4' pre-cut project sheets. Use plywood of a thickness that's not too heavy. This was the failure point.
I used a cookie cutter style for the sub-roadbed and blocked it at elevation points with beveled tops on the blocks equal to the grade/slope. This worked well.
The mountain was of two countours. One has a slot to fit together like the old Plasticville pine trees. I glued a piece of dowel to top inside and put a removable screw eye to provide a lift point for placing and removing the mountain. The screw is finger tight and is removed after installation. later supports were installed as stiffeners.
The mountain is to have aluminum window screen stapled to the contours and shaped. Then I am going to squirt Great Stuff on the screen and carve it. This stuff gets hard and makes a nice shell, but it is work to carve it. (more on that later if you want). I got this technique from a Dave Frary book. The screen would have followed the roadbed edge at sat on it, with the very bottom undecorated. The outside of the spiral would have foamed and carved to roadbed height.
The other catch is exiting the mountain in the direction that you want to go. You can see that it required me to put some straights in at the bottom and create a tunnel.
This version was a mix of O36 & 048 FasTrack to get the angles correct for the exit.
It rises to ~ 8".
I also made the reverse loops fit on a 4' x 4' so that the North Pole (elevated section) could also be portable.
So, do want to work something like this on to your L-shaped base from last year? here's what it would have looked like in a 4' x 12'.
I have been looking at this since you posted it...........and Since I want 2 trains on the layout..or at least. I think for my "L" shaped platform I will have a reverse loop for the top and a single train running around the bottom. You'll only see the bottom one when it comes out of the tunnels at each end and as it snakes around the outside "L" . Looking at this picture/drawing you did for me. If I just bend it in the middle I could have a small sub ville there or a siding for accesorys. Any thought on that???? Doug
A possibility is to use flexible track, such as Gargraves, so that you can have a smoothly tightening radius as you go up.
RJR posted:A possibility is to use flexible track, such as Gargraves, so that you can have a smoothly tightening radius as you go up.
There will be no incline to go up, as there will be two levels independent of the other...
Did you look at Bill Henning's trains in a tree thread? You might get some ideas about the spiral from that, he accomplished it all with Fastrack.
Not sure if this video belongs to another forum member. This layout sure gives the "desired effect".
RickO posted:Not sure if this video belongs to another forum member. This layout sure gives the "desired effect".
Nice but my layout size is only 4x8x4...Its a "L" shape for the corner...
Moonman posted:Hi Dougie,
How are you? I am surprised that you would want to make a do over for the holidays after the expansion last year. Well, you have touched on project dear to me.
I started this type of project before, first for a 4' wide table, then to be portable modules to sit on LCCA modules. I learned a few things that can definitely help you. First, though, a couple of photos a of the unfished portable pieces that will work well with how you set-up and break-down and store your holiday layout.
Some lessons:
The train going around a mountain is the desired effect - multiple loops around require too much space and do not provide a great enough bang for the work for more turns.
The base is 4' x 4'. I used 1/4" luan for the base. It is not sturdy enough. Home Depot has 4' x 4' pre-cut project sheets. Use plywood of a thickness that's not too heavy. This was the failure point.
I used a cookie cutter style for the sub-roadbed and blocked it at elevation points with beveled tops on the blocks equal to the grade/slope. This worked well.
The mountain was of two countours. One has a slot to fit together like the old Plasticville pine trees. I glued a piece of dowel to top inside and put a removable screw eye to provide a lift point for placing and removing the mountain. The screw is finger tight and is removed after installation. later supports were installed as stiffeners.
The mountain is to have aluminum window screen stapled to the contours and shaped. Then I am going to squirt Great Stuff on the screen and carve it. This stuff gets hard and makes a nice shell, but it is work to carve it. (more on that later if you want). I got this technique from a Dave Frary book. The screen would have followed the roadbed edge at sat on it, with the very bottom undecorated. The outside of the spiral would have foamed and carved to roadbed height.
The other catch is exiting the mountain in the direction that you want to go. You can see that it required me to put some straights in at the bottom and create a tunnel.
This version was a mix of O36 & 048 FasTrack to get the angles correct for the exit.
It rises to ~ 8".
I also made the reverse loops fit on a 4' x 4' so that the North Pole (elevated section) could also be portable.
So, do want to work something like this on to your L-shaped base from last year? here's what it would have looked like in a 4' x 12'.
Hey I came across this and was wondering if you ever completed it?? If so do you have a picture
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