Forum Members,

Part of the hobby for me includes collecting the tools the service stations used to repair our trains. I have over the years been able to obtain a 5B, 5C, 5D and 5F test sets. Most of these came with aftermarket test leads and not the originals.

Recently I was able to obtain an original set of test leads for the 5C test set. Lionel used parts from General Radio and Mueller to create these leads.

I need help to understand what test leads came with the 5D and 5F test sets as the double bannana plug from the 5C does not fit the 5D or 5F.

I would welcome any help determining what came with these test sets and would also appreciate any pictures of the Bannana plugs and test ends showing the manufacturer and model number of the parts.

If I can't buy them I would at least like to make up some reproduction test leads using the same parts Lionel used.

Any help is welcome and thank you in advance.

Regards, Craig

Original Post

Just curious: How do you know the test leads you purchased as original Lionel 5C test leads are original Lionel?
As you posted, Lionel used standard parts to make up the leads, and they have no Lionel marking on them. (at least the ones I've seen)
Lionel may have purchased them already assembled.

My suggestion: if you need leads for any test bench, just make them up using the same components that Lionel used.

I've had a number of test benches pass through my hands. Most of them came with the same test leads, usually in rather beat condition. 

All that written, below are pictures of the lead ends that came with my boxed 5F.

 

KIMG0003KIMG0001KIMG0002

C.W. Burfle

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A little more:


I think the clips are Mueller #45 Pee Wee clips with #47 covers. The 5F came with copper clips. All the other benches I've seen had silver colored clips.

I use Belden #8899 test probe wire in red and black.

I checked the 5F banana plugs against an old catalog. They appear to be HH Smith #253.

I prefer a different style plug, which I use in place of the HH Smith #253.



There is a pair of red leads with a spade on one end, and an odd looking connector on the other. The leads appear to be intended for transformer testing. I have not been able to identify the connector.

C.W. Burfle

Thanks for your quick response CW, I assume there is no way to tell if any leads are 100% original unless they came with a new in the box test set.

My 5C test leads have the correct General Radio plugs and the silver Mueller #45 pee wee clips with the #47 covers. The Mueller clips match those of the period as far as the stamped model number and nomenclature and the wire also looks correct. That being said who really knows.

Thank you for the information on the 5F and as well about the #45's in copper rather than silver.

With the other test sets you had were the leads for the 5D the same as the 5F?

Did the 5D's have silver clips and the 5F's copper?

Regards, Craig

All the other benches I've examined were well used. There was no way of knowing whether the leads that came with them were original. Some didn't have leads at all. To the best of my memory, the test clamps were silver. The 5F was the only one with copper leads.  test clamps.

By the way, the banana plugs I like are the HH Smith 212.

C.W. Burfle

CW, yes I did see that post. I could go with the HH Smith single banana plug for the one set of leads but I am still trying to track down the double banana plug for the 5D and 5F. The center to center of the holes is slightly larger to that of the 5C.

I have also noted that Lionel seemed to re-use the instruction manuals from the 5D for the 5F with some modifications. Notice the meters on the picture diagram with the curved tops.

Regards, Craig

macdaddy posted:

CW, yes I did see that post. I could go with the HH Smith single banana plug for the one set of leads but I am still trying to track down the double banana plug for the 5D and 5F. The center to center of the holes is slightly larger to that of the 5C.

I have also noted that Lionel seemed to re-use the instruction manuals from the 5D for the 5F with some modifications. Notice the meters on the picture diagram with the curved tops.

What is the exact center-to-center spacing of the dual banana plugs you need? Do you have a photo of an original one? 

CW, yes I did see that post. I could go with the HH Smith single banana plug for the one set of leads but I am still trying to track down the double banana plug for the 5D and 5F

If my 5F came with it's original leads, then there wasn't a double banana plug.
The parts list for the 5F specifically lists "5F-41 Banana plug leads" and "5F-42 spade leads".

Since my 5F came boxed, with all its packing and instruction manual, I think the leads are original too.

The picture on page 1 of the 5F manual does show a pair of leads with a double plug. But that same picture also shows both leads with test clips, while the parts list says one pair has "spade leads".

C.W. Burfle

Yes I agree 7/8" on the 5D and 5F and 3/4" on the 5C.

Even though the graphic in the 5D and 5F instructions show a double plug I don't think they were ever made that way.

I also think yours are the original leads, and the instruction manuals for the 5D and 5F both clearly state in the parts inventory that the second pair of leads has a blade ('U') connection at one end which is what is seen in your picture and an crimped uninsulated banana at the other end.

Therefore I believe after these discussions and your photos of your boxed 5F that there never was a double banana plug included with the 5D and 5F.

Thank you all for helping me resolve my quandary!

 

I can now search out the parts to make up these leads for the 5D and 5F. I have been able to find original NOS to make up a second set of leads for the 5C.

Regards, Craig

bigo426 posted:

Double and single banana plug from a 5C for those that want to see one:

Yes, the 3/4 inch spacing is standard, but I have not seen hide nor hair of dual banana plugs with 7/8 spacing for the 5D and 5F. Unless Lionel made them special I doubt that they exist.

I also think yours are the original leads, and the instruction manuals for the 5D and 5F both clearly state in the parts inventory that the second pair of leads has a blade ('U') connection at one end which is what is seen in your picture and an crimped uninsulated banana at the other end.

I will have to take a better picture of the connector on the end of the spade leads. It's not like any uninsulated banana plug I've seen.

C.W. Burfle

Here is a better picture of the odd ball connector. Maybe someone can identify it.

The barrel assembly as two different diameter tubes that slide, and are spring loaded.
The hook shaped piece is attached to the inner tube, so it moves out as the inner tube is pushed in.

I am guessing it is a heavy duty connector designed to support the amperage a large transformer circuit breaker test would generate.

Both leads are red, and are only 12 inches long.

I don't want to mess with the leads too much. They aren't cracked yet, but they are extremely stiff, and probably brittle.

KIMG0010

C.W. Burfle

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Looking at the spring contact plugs,  it appears to be a convenience type plug - it doesn't have to be completely removed to disconnect- move barrel out slightly to separate from the tip - what do you think?

Do you use your test station, CW?

 

Carl

Arctic Railroad

Looking at the spring contact plugs,  it appears to be a convenience type plug - it doesn't have to be completely removed to disconnect- move barrel out slightly to separate from the tip - what do you think?

I don't quite follow. The plug in the close-up photo does not come apart.

I just finished going through the connectors section of a very large 1968 distributors catalog of electronic components that I recently acquired. There was nothing even close.

Do you use your test station, CW?

I have a 5D on a shelf just above my work desk. There are usually some trains waiting to be repaired sitting on the track. I use the whistle control test and the circuit breaker test.  Unfortunately, I have to clear the tracks first. I don't use any of the other functions.

I have a Simpson 229 AC leakage meter that I use to check transformers for leakage. 
I have a A.C. / D.C. power source with AC volt and AC amp meters built into my desk years ago.



C.W. Burfle

if seems as if one would pull on the barrel slightly, as if to pull it out of the jack, but only move it enough to separate the tip from barrel. The wire to the tip(hot) would be insulated(covered) through the barrel.

Pushing it in snugly to the bottom would connect it.

No? I am only guessing as I have never seen one

Ok, I am out. The mystery plug/connector

Carl

Arctic Railroad

Maybe Lionel used different dual plugs based on availability as mine is the same as pictured by PLCPRF which is a general radio 274-MB and the single plug is a general radio 274-DB. According to some there are two versions of the 274-MB with one allowing the two wires to be fed up through a hole in the middle of the plug.  That is the version I have see below:

Regards, Craig

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Don't want to hijack the thread, but since we are on the topic of these panels..... Can anyone advise how the UCS / RCS tracks were secured to the panel by the factory? Previous owner had an RCS and a UCS only held in place by their wires. It seems to me there would have been some very small diameter fasteners needed to fit between the control rails of the UCS / RCS tracks. My 5C panel has some holes that look as if they were made before the panel was painted. I assume these were the factory made holes.

BIGO426, no worries your not really hijacking the thread as it still pertains to the test sets. I have (2) 5C test sets one that I bought without the track and bumpers on it. This I understand was common if the service station actually used the test set they would sometimes remove the track and bumpers so they could add a longer run of track on top perhaps mounted to a long board so they actually had a longer run to test the trains on. You can see the holes on the top of my one 5C and I verified the other has small screws holding the UCS sections in place in those positions.

Regards, Craig

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 This I understand was common if the service station actually used the test set they would sometimes remove the track and bumpers so they could add a longer run of track on top perhaps mounted to a long board so they actually had a longer run to test the trains on.

At one shop, the owner took the entire panel off the case, and mounted it in a cubby built into the shelves in his shop, with a long test track above it.
I visited him many times. Eventually he found the cabinet, and sold me the whole thing.

C.W. Burfle

CW thank you for the info and taking the time to help. I have the same holes on mine. I had speculated that maybe they used fine self tapping screws from inside, but the fillister from the top down makes more sense. I think I'll have to take the control rails off the UCS RCS to make the holes then put them back on. I have never personally seen one that was "as shipped" from the factory.

CW have not been able to locate the HH Smith #253's are there any markings on the Banana plugs that came with your 5F. Perhaps a model number listed at the ends of the plastic plugs around the metal tip or where the wire is inserted.

I noticed with the 5c it was a stackable plug, where the 5F's the same way?

 

Anyone out there have original 5D test leads?

Regards, Craig

I would be surprised if original test leads would survive in useable condition.  Where I worked, we would throw out old HH Smith, and other quality brands because the rubber had deteriorated and was a crumbly mess (and they were stored at room temperatures, not hot attics).  The connector ends were OK.  I would snag them and rebuild with Belden test lead and reshelve at half price as rebuilds and no one was the wiser.

I noticed with the 5c it was a stackable plug, where the 5F's the same way?

No, the 5F plugs are not stackable. See the photo in my post above.

Attached is a page from an old General Radio catalog. It shows a stackable single plug that appears to be similar to the one PLCProf /Big0426 pictured above.

GeneralRadiopage

C.W. Burfle

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Still looking for help to find out what the test leads were with the Lionel 5D. Anyone out there have one that was new in the box?

CW. still have not been able to figure out the plugs on those test  leads with the spade fork connectors on the other end.

Regards, Craig

C W Burfle posted:

Here is a better picture of the odd ball connector. Maybe someone can identify it.

The barrel assembly as two different diameter tubes that slide, and are spring loaded.
The hook shaped piece is attached to the inner tube, so it moves out as the inner tube is pushed in.

I am guessing it is a heavy duty connector designed to support the amperage a large transformer circuit breaker test would generate.

Both leads are red, and are only 12 inches long.

I don't want to mess with the leads too much. They aren't cracked yet, but they are extremely stiff, and probably brittle.

KIMG0010

I wonder if this is was a spring loaded tip? Hard to discern construction from picture but would be interested in more detailed picture or drawing. 

macdaddy posted:

Still looking for help to find out what the test leads were with the Lionel 5D. Anyone out there have one that was new in the box?

CW. still have not been able to figure out the plugs on those test  leads with the spade fork connectors on the other end.

I think Lionel was using an early type of cut and paste with the pictures of the test leads. I too can find no old source or reference for a wider than standard banana plug and Lionel would not have specially made something like that I feel. 

Jagrick posted:
C W Burfle posted:

Here is a better picture of the odd ball connector. Maybe someone can identify it.

The barrel assembly as two different diameter tubes that slide, and are spring loaded.
The hook shaped piece is attached to the inner tube, so it moves out as the inner tube is pushed in.

I am guessing it is a heavy duty connector designed to support the amperage a large transformer circuit breaker test would generate.

Both leads are red, and are only 12 inches long.

I don't want to mess with the leads too much. They aren't cracked yet, but they are extremely stiff, and probably brittle.

I wonder if this is was a spring loaded tip? Hard to discern construction from picture but would be interested in more detailed picture or drawing. 

Sadly, Charlie Sigadel, posting above as C W Burfle, passed away earlier this year.

TRW

Jagrick posted:
C W Burfle posted:

Here is a better picture of the odd ball connector. Maybe someone can identify it.

The barrel assembly as two different diameter tubes that slide, and are spring loaded.
The hook shaped piece is attached to the inner tube, so it moves out as the inner tube is pushed in.

I am guessing it is a heavy duty connector designed to support the amperage a large transformer circuit breaker test would generate.

Both leads are red, and are only 12 inches long.

I don't want to mess with the leads too much. They aren't cracked yet, but they are extremely stiff, and probably brittle.

KIMG0010

I wonder if this is was a spring loaded tip? Hard to discern construction from picture but would be interested in more detailed picture or drawing. 

Almost looks like a primitive EZ Hook connector, though I have not seen this type listed in older EZ Hook catalogs (but mine don't  go back to the 50s).  Maybe a Lionel one of kind original to solve a high amperage problem???

Sorry to read CW passed away.  We're all getting older

 

Thanks,

Sam

Free lancing fictitious Iowa Midwest Division of Pittsburgh & West Virginia Railway

Take a cab and trolley ride on P&WV  https://www.youtube.com/watch?...7pZJZBL_4&t=144s

 

BE WITH THOSE THAT BRING OUT THE BEST IN YOU,

          NOT THE STRESS IN YOU.

          unknown

Jagrick posted:

Do sad to hear of his passing. We are diminished so much with the loss of our fellow collectors. 

And their expertise, no matter how great or small, every insight or "ah-ha moment" often proves the way forward of solving problem(s).

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