I'm still running a TMCC Base and Cab-1 system. I tried out a CAB-2 but the remote IMO was terrible. They added some nice features but the little LCD touchscreen was impossible for me to use and the remote itself seemed like Lionel was overcompensating for something. The Cab-2 got donated to one of the clubs I belong to.
I did briefly consider getting a Base/Cab-1L setup with a WiFi module and then buying the CAB3 app when it comes out but I think the cost would exceed that of the new BASE3 with a free copy of the CAB3 app.
I'm still on the fence with pre-ordering it. I know there will be questions about it on the forum and from fellow club members and I'd like to be help answer those questions when they arise. Also right now I have to move my BASE/CAB-1 system to the work bench every time I work on something with TMCC or legacy. So for me there are some advantages, but the price for it with a CAB-1L remote just holds me back...
@Putnam Division posted:Great video, Chris.I jumped in the day of the catalog release.....it sounds like there is pretty good acceptance out of the gate.....it was 11:30 AM that Friday (just hours after the catalog release) and I called Steve Nelson.....I was about the 30th pre-order so far......
Peter
Can I buy your obsolete 990 base when the Cab-3 comes in? At a blow out price? 
@Gpritch posted:Can I buy your obsolete 990 base when the Cab-3 comes in? At a blow out price?
What good is it if he keeps the CAB-2 remote to use with his BASE-3?
@H1000 posted:I did briefly consider getting a Base/Cab-1L setup with a WiFi module and then buying the CAB3 app when it comes out but I think the cost would exceed that of the new BASE3 with a free copy of the CAB3 app.
The CAB-1L doesn't offer a lot over the original CAB-1 but I've found the reliability of operation is increased. I haven't seen as many (if any) missed commands. Obviously this depends on the RF environment in you house. In terms of cost, I think the CAB-1L/Base-1L set used to retail for like $250, you can get the Wi-Fi module for about $130. Your at $380 now. What's the app going to cost? $29 or $49. Either way you are below the street price of the Base3 AND you have a remote.
@H1000 posted:What good is it if he keeps the CAB-2 remote to use with his BASE-3?
A second Legacy Base isn't much good to someone if they already have a #990 set other than a backup. Seeing as the Base3 costs quite a bit, and has features that someone who already has a CAB-2 may not want or need, buying a used Legacy Base is a much cheaper way of having a spare. Also, if someone found a #993 set but doesn't want to pay for the Base3, again a used Legacy Base is a nice option.
I have a feeling in about year we'll see some 990 systems for sale without a remote. The pros that I could identify with Base/Cab-1L was no more extendable antenna, some access to Legacy features (full access with WiFi module & app) and access to Legacy features via the MTH App through a TIU & SER2.
My investment would also require the PDI power cable and a SER2 which would add about another $100 to your quoted price above. Tring to find a BASE/CAB-1L combo is very hard and the last retail price I saw was $300 and ebay prices have ranged from $275 to $350. I figure I'd be around $500 to $550 for that setup whereas a Base3 with CAB1L and SER2 will come in just under $600.
The Bluetooth & RF control of Lionchief stuff isn't something that I really need but I am curious. Now if they would have built an LC Universal remote module for the LCS system, then people could have added that functionality al-la-carte if they want without having to buy a whole new BASE-3.
Something else to consider with the BASE3 is those folks who plug in a TMCC Base/CAB1 or an MTH TIU (via a SER2) will also be able to access and control Lionchief RF & Bluetooth engines, again not a big deal to me but maybe for some.
The 990 base could be used if someone is using MTH DCS base unit to control Legacy and TMCC engines, would be lot cheaper than buying a base 3 and hooking it up.
I'll stick with Cab2. I have no interest in Cab3 or Bluetooth.
@bigkid posted:The 990 base could be used if someone is using MTH DCS base unit to control Legacy and TMCC engines, would be lot cheaper than buying a base 3 and hooking it up.
This is true, but to access legacy features they would also need a Power PDI cable, SER2, WIU, and the premium upgrade for the MTH app. Correct me if I'm wrong, legacy features are not available on the DCS Remote only the app.
If one was not interested in legacy features, then they could run what I run now a TMCC base plugged into a TIU.
Now if someone wants the CAB3 app features on the cheap, they could get a used BASE2, Power PDI cable, WiFi module,buy the CAB3 app and end up with the new fully featured CAB3 app without Lionchief support of course for much less then the cost of a BASE3.
@H1000 posted:This is true, but to access legacy features they would also need a Power PDI cable, SER2, WIU, and the premium upgrade for the MTH app. Correct me if I'm wrong, legacy features are not available on the DCS Remote only the app.
If one was not interested in legacy features, then they could run what I run now a TMCC base plugged into a TIU.
Now if someone wants the CAB3 app features on the cheap, they could get a used BASE2, Power PDI cable, WiFi module,buy the CAB3 app and end up with the new fully featured CAB3 app without Lionchief support of course for much less then the cost of a BASE3.
I'd still go the Legacy Base route. It gives you a path to eventual Legacy operations since it can be hooked up and used in TMCC mode.
I think what @bigkid suggested is a pretty good path to eventually get to Legacy ops via the DCS app.
@MartyE posted:I'd still go the Legacy Base route. It gives you a path to eventual Legacy operations since it can be hooked up and used in TMCC mode.
I think what @bigkid suggested is a pretty good path to eventually get to Legacy ops via the DCS app.
This is especially true if you already have this DCS stuff and were just waiting to add Legacy when some sort of base/remote became available. The only reason I hadn't purchased earlier is that I wrongly assumed there would be something new coming out that would include a remote and be roughly the same prices as the #990, or less because you know, technology gets cheaper.
I have zero LC engines and no MTH stuff. So, I’m starting from the place that my 990 and CAB2 are just fine. I actually prefer the remote. However, I think it’s impossible to say I won’t adopt the Base3 until we see …. the new app. I suspect many of the “remote or die” crowd (me kinda included) will change our tunes if the app is loaded with cool new stuff. If it’s meh, we’ll all hold onto our remotes (pun intended). If the app crushes it, we may all upgrade. For me, no need to preorder, but also no reason to say “never”. I wanna see the app.
With the Base 2 I am able connect my Cab 1 Base to it.
Will I be able to connect my Cab 1 set up to the Base 3?
@Jeff2035 posted:With the Base 2 I am able connect my Cab 1 Base to it.
Will I be able to connect my Cab 1 set up to the Base 3?
Dave said he was able to do this in one of the videos I believe. So I suspect they'll be more info coming.
@Jeff2035 posted:With the Base 2 I am able connect my Cab 1 Base to it.
Will I be able to connect my Cab 1 set up to the Base 3?
I don't see why not. You might need a SER2 for the proper db9 port though.
H1000 and MartyE, thank you very much.
Possibly a dumb question. Lionel cannot find the components to continue to build the Cab2 and appear to be reluctant to design and build a new remote (more functional and FUN than the decrepit Cab1L), perhaps also because of a fear of component shortage. Why can SO many of DCC manufacturers continue to find the components that they need to build new remotes, some of which certainly look more compact, modern, and functional? Has any company ever taken on the challenge of converting MTH or Lionel TMCC to DCC?? I know, dumb question.
Working on a one week total knee replacement, may not be totally coherent. :-)
I have Cab-1 and DCS. Only tried a Cab-2 once at a local train club. Didn’t buy one because I didn’t own a Legacy engine. I have purchased a couple of Legacy diesels in the past 6 months that run best for me with the Bluetooth app instead of the Cab-1 I own.
I did order a Base-3 last night. It will hopefully give me better Legacy control than my current Bluetooth app. Also will upgrade to the Cab-1L remote, since it’s an improvement over the Cab-1. I will also use the DCS. At this point, I’m leaning towards hooking the Cab-1 to the DCS instead of the Cab-3, since it’s cheaper and I’ve already had success with that configuration and currently have all my tmcc engines programmed into the DCS remote. That set up will give me 4 options to run tmcc (Cab2-L, Cab-1, app, or DCS). 3 options to run my Lion Chief (LC remote, app, Cab1-L). A couple of options to run Legacy (Cab1-L, app), and DCS for my MTH engines.
The potential to easily upgrade the Base-3 and the ability for Lionel add new features to the app in the future, are nice bonuses. I did find that Legacy Station has the Base-3 preorder price at $100 less than msrp, but it’s still not cheap.
Ron,
I have been wondering the same thing. I also subscribe to Model Railroader magazine and see no mention of the different manufactures of DCC controllers discontinuing their handhelds. I fact some are bringing new models to market. This leads me to believe that the market for controllers for MTH and Lionel is so small compared to DCC that it’s financially impractical to bring out new or current models of Legacy and DCS handhelds. So the only alternative is to turn to apps on the phone. That I think is the reason your seeing the move to apps from both Lionel and MTH. We as operators may not like it, but that’s going to be the way going forward.
Dave
Unlike DCS and Legacy, DCC manufacturers in general do not make trains, transformers, track, buildings, etc. They make only DCC. So they are going to be making remotes and boards as their bread and butter. One might note that most DCC wireless systems have always been significantly more expensive than DCS, TMCC or Legacy. That may be changing, but their profit margins and/or costs may be larger than Lionel or MTH's, so it's a different business model in many ways is my guess.
@ncdave posted:Ron,
I have been wondering the same thing. I also subscribe to Model Railroader magazine and see no mention of the different manufactures of DCC controllers discontinuing their handhelds. I fact some are bringing new models to market. This leads me to believe that the market for controllers for MTH and Lionel is so small compared to DCC that it’s financially impractical to bring out new or current models of Legacy and DCS handhelds. So the only alternative is to turn to apps on the phone. That I think is the reason your seeing the move to apps from both Lionel and MTH. We as operators may not like it, but that’s going to be the way going forward.
Dave
I think there's a lot of truth in that, but I think there's some poor planning and management going on too.
@Landsteiner posted:Unlike DCS and Legacy, DCC manufacturers in general do not make trains, transformers, track, buildings, etc. They make only DCC. So they are going to be making remotes and boards as their bread and butter. One might note that most DCC wireless systems have always been significantly more expensive than DCS, TMCC or Legacy. That may be changing, but their profit margins and/or costs may be larger than Lionel or MTH's, so it's a different business model in many ways is my guess.
I don't know about profit margins, but my recent DCC shopping showed that there are several systems where one can buy a base and tethered remote for under $200, with wireless remotes for another $100-200. That's actually less expensive than 3-rail, since any DCC system will run any DCC engine - in our world, we need to have a copy of each manufacturer's system. And like 3-rail, one can spend a boatload on DCC (especially Digitrax) depending on what one wants to do.
As to DCC manufacturers focusing more on it because it's their bread and butter, you may be right but Lionel and MTH need to realize the importance and get their act together - how many command control engines will people continue to buy if they can't get the control systems to run them?
@jstraw124 posted:I did order a Base-3 last night. It will hopefully give me better Legacy control than my current Bluetooth app. Also will upgrade to the Cab-2L remote, since it’s an improvement over the Cab-1.
You do realize the Cab-2 has been discontinued, right? Unless you are talking about the Cab-1L.
I will also use the DCS. At this point, I’m leaning towards hooking the Cab-1 to the DCS instead of the Cab-3…
Did you mean Base-1L? There’s no way that I know of to use any Cab remote with the DCS system.
Very interesting thread. I have not ordered it yet, as I am trying to determine what exactly it will get me and what problem(s) it will solve. For me the Cab-2 remote works fine. Even with an enhanced antenna, there are certain spots on my layout where my Cab-2 doesn't communicate with the base (i.e. lose control), and the work around there is don't try and run the trains from spot X. Easy enough. I don't have any Lion Chief engines and don't plan to buy any.
Somewhat in parallel, I took the plunge a few years ago on DCS Wi-Fi as I was tired of getting the message from the handheld "train not on track", and I was ready to toss DCS out since I was getting the error message more often than not. DCS Wi-Fi works great for me. The connectivity problem was solved. While the DCS Wi-Fi can control TMCC/Legacy engines and basic functionality, it's not great. It works, yes.
If Base3 will solve my connectivity issues, the way DCS Wi-Fi solved "train not on track," then I am heading down the bath of taking the plunge. Whether it is a hand held remote or it is an iPad, it is something in my hand and am glad not to be anchored to the transformers like the day of very old.
john
what's the consensus on individuals that don't have the Cab2. I am seeing two options: (1) pay the inflated Cab 2 prices on the resale market or (2) Buy the cab 3.... Oh I guess there is a third, "Run conventional"... ha
@Arcadebrothers posted:what's the consensus on individuals that don't have the Cab2. I am seeing two options: (1) pay the inflated Cab 2 prices on the resale market or (2) Buy the cab 3.... Oh I guess there is a third, "Run conventional"... ha
It's a little more difficult than that. You mention a Cab-3 but there is no such thing. They're selling a Base-3. This comes with no handheld remote, Cab-2, Cab-3 or otherwise, just an app that you put on your phone.
Therefore if you prefer old-fashioned tactile feedback you'll have to pay the big money for an "obsolete" Cab-2. If you do though it will function fully with either its Base-2, or the new Base-3.
And yes, you could always go conventional.
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:It's a little more difficult than that. You mention a Cab-3 but there is no such thing. They're selling a Base-3. This comes with no handheld remote, Cab-2, Cab-3 or otherwise, just an app that you put on your phone.
Therefore if you prefer old-fashioned tactile feedback you'll have to pay the big money for an "obsolete" Cab-2. If you do though it will function fully with either its Base-2, or the new Base-3.
And yes, you could always go conventional.
Mike
Ha! That would create a problem huh! Duh!
I am ok with the App but the tactile buttons are nice. I’m still thinking this is a product strategy by Lionel. Intro the new base then satisfy the masses with a new remote.
I love my MTH DCS Remote Commander.😀😀😀🔥🔥🔥
The whole issue of a remote being too expensive seem to fly in the face of all the dirt cheap handheld devices that are everywhere, including those with keyboards and displays. I only hope they open up the interface so some 3rd party can create a decent remote that's not a phone.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The whole issue of a remote being too expensive seem to fly in the face of all the dirt cheap handheld devices that are everywhere, including those with keyboards and displays. I only hope they open up the interface so some 3rd party can create a decent remote that's not a phone.
@MartyE posted:Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing!
I didn't say I wouldn't be that 3rd party Marty. 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I didn't say I wouldn't be that 3rd party Marty.
You build it John, they will buy.
The interface is described in the LCS Partner Program documents. If you can translate a hardware input (say, the position of a quilling whistle slider) into a packet with the TMCC command & value, and transmit the packet to the LCS WiFi socket, the WiFi will forward the packet to the Base where the TMCC command embedded in the packet will get transmitted via the track to the engine. Use Lionel's LCS WiFi Monitor to watch the packets and their contents.
In reality, the Cab2 and apps have to maintain state of the engine(s) operation for info, speed, etc. displays, so the work involved building a control device is a lot more complex than translating hardware inputs and transmitting them to the base.
I have to use three apps (iCab and iTrain on the iPad, and eTrain on Windows) to access most of the functions available in the Cab2. None of these apps/device can be used alone to control all of the functionality of Legacy locos, box cars, dining cars, sensor tracks, subways, and other (future?) LCS devices. Lionel has a lot of capability to add to the upcoming iCab app to make it a "complete" control interface.
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