The Frustrations Of S Gauge/Scale

I have been into S since 1955, but dropped out in the late 90's just as Lionel was making all the cool steam engines. Now that I am back into S, the steam engines are gone (except for the Berkshires and Northerns) and there seems to be only modern stuff being made. Since my modelling era is 37-52, none of the modern stuff works for me.

When I worked for Lionel back in 2007, it seemed like there might be a chance to give them some S input, so I polled every collector and dealer that I knew. Every one of them wanted something different than the other one did. There was no way I could produce a united front.

But that was OK, since Lionel didn't listen to my suggestions anyway.

Trying to grow another scale during these doldrum times is a tough road to travel. I invested time & money is  AF S scale and too many problems to make it worthwhile. Some problems were with basic designs I thought. Incompatible couplers, electrical pickup that was not reliable, engine driving wheels that were two piece and came apart and limited engines available made me quit.

From my own point of view there is more S-scale stuff in the market place today than I COULD AFFORD TO BUY! I have just about every example of a Gilbert Flyer loco, cars etc. I have a hugh amount of American Models, S-Helper, S-Scale America, and Lionel Flyer.  No way could I have it all nor would I want it all. I appreciate anything new that comes along. I remember the dry times from 65 to 79, but I was still able to find S- scale stuff and add to my collection.

Major posted:

From my own point of view there is more S-scale stuff in the market place today than I COULD AFFORD TO BUY! I have just about every example of a Gilbert Flyer loco, cars etc. I have a hugh amount of American Models, S-Helper, S-Scale America, and Lionel Flyer.  No way could I have it all nor would I want it all. I appreciate anything new that comes along. I remember the dry times from 65 to 79, but I was still able to find S- scale stuff and add to my collection.

I could say the same thing.  I probably even qualify for the "too much invested in S to change scales" type statements.

But my personal hoard of "not much available in S" acquired over the past 34 years doesn't help to attract new people into the scale.

Maybe after I'm gone, someone rummaging through the dumpster where my stuff will likely wind up will discover the wonders of S.

Rusty 

Amen Rusty, as much as I enjoy S myself, l have no idea of what would draw more people to the S gauge. I guess I, we can enjoy what is available, wish for more, and regret that more folks don't realize what they are missing.

Ray

I got in to S gauge by buying a box of "junk"  of S gauge engines and put together 4 runners. Later I traded them back to the antique dealer for Lionels.

In my case, my love for postwar link coupler AF goes back to my childhood, and I have a very small 4x6 layout for it. However, my main layout and Christmas layouts are "O". The main reason is lack of scenics, especially buildings, for "S". On my layout I have a few "detailed" Plasticville structures, but they look too large. I also have some Woodland Scenics and Walthers Ready-Built "HO" structures that look OK. Arttista makes some nice "S" figures, but they are expensive. The big recent plus has been the 1950s 1:64 scale cars with the opening doors and hoods. They are great, and only around $7. each. However, I'm happy enough running my small "S" layout, and looking for more "HO" buildings that look in the "OK range" (I carry a S-size car and a figure to shows with me to "test" this). 

"But my personal hoard of "not much available in S" acquired over the past 34 years doesn't help to attract new people into the scale."

Bingo.

Nailed it.

I'd ask the scale S list: "Say, is there an Alco S-2 in scale S?"

Answer: "Oh yeah, they made about 100 of those back about 20 years ago, I've got a couple!"

Big help. I learned quickly: It was best to be in S before I was. I searched and watched eBay for months and months (years, actually) to find ONE, and it ended up coming from a private sale, as I recall. Trouble is, I WANTED a small fleet of them for my theme.... years to find ONE? (And spending over $500 to get it?)

SO, in view of when I was trying to do with S scale in the scale realm: Sure, there had been LOTS of stuff that had been made (past tense) in brass and otherwise, but try finding it. When you DID find a desirable brass piece (or plastic)... you had to pay through the nose for it (private seller pricing) or mortgage the farm on eBay because of the starved market, thus you had to outbid other desperate S scaler's.

It was truly one of the most frustrating scales I've ever attempted to model in.

After making the decision to return to HO, in a short time I amassed MORE than I need to equip a medium sized a HO layout set in the early-mid 1960s. AND, seeing as I will be using the same layout to for dual era's, I also quickly (relatively speaking) amassed more than enough equipment to equip my late 1880s era. Try doing either in scale S.  Ain't happenin'.

I wish it were not so, but the above was what I experienced.

Andre

laming posted:

"

I'd ask the scale S list: "Say, is there an Alco S-2 in scale S?"

Answer: "Oh yeah, they made about 100 of those back about 20 years ago, I've got a couple!"

Andre

Got that right:

And the sad thing is, if you bring this up to the S Scale crowd, that's why they'll say "another one is not needed..."   I get the "Overland made one 25 years ago" excuse every time I bring up a scale USRA Light or Heavy Mikado.

Equally upsetting is AM won't consider making a Mikado drive for their USRA Pacific boiler because Lionel flooded the market for Mikado's.  Yeah, at least over a decade ago...

Rusty

I am reposting my reply here as this is a better place for this discussion.

Hi Francine

I agree it is simple ECONOMICS.  If you do not grow the market and people keep aging out of the market, the market will dry up and you will never get a Hudson, a GS4 or an SD40.  Now if you expand your market and more dollars are flowing in then you can do more things.  So say new tooling allocations are set at 10% of total sales.  if sales are $10 then they will allocate $1 to new tooling if sales go to $100 then they will allocate $10 to new tooling.  If bringing in new people by building Thomas, Harry Potter or Hot wheels increases sales to $1000. Then they will have $100 for new tooling.  Now the ECONMICS will decide if they should invest the new tooling in Fantasy or in Classic.  The odds are they will do a mix as they want to continue to pull in new blood but they want that new blood to move to the more expensive classic line.

Anyway I have tried my best to explain why both are needed.  I appreciate that those on this forum are of course vested in the classic line (Gilbert, Flyerchief, Legacy), but they need to understand that in order to get new tooling dedicated to what they want, the market needs to expand.

--Rocco--

Rusty Traque posted:

laming posted:

"

I'd ask the scale S list: "Say, is there an Alco S-2 in scale S?"

Answer: "Oh yeah, they made about 100 of those back about 20 years ago, I've got a couple!"

Andre

Got that right:

And the sad thing is, if you bring this up to the S Scale crowd, that's why they'll say "another one is not needed..."   I get the "Overland made one 25 years ago" excuse every time I bring up a scale USRA Light or Heavy Mikado.

Equally upsetting is AM won't consider making a Mikado drive for their USRA Pacific boiler because Lionel flooded the market for Mikado's.  Yeah, at least over a decade ago...

Rusty

Where AM's argument falls down is that if they did a Mikado, it would be with either scale or high rail wheels. Flyonel could not say that.

Any prototype offered as a brass model would be welcomed in Plastic or cast metal. A tiny run made ages ago is a mute point. Besides, they were usually unpainted in that era. A plastic/die cast metal run would be offered in many roadnames. Take it out of the box and put it on your layout.

I heard this argument too, and it is invalid.

RoyBoy posted:

I have been into S since 1955, but dropped out in the late 90's just as Lionel was making all the cool steam engines. Now that I am back into S, the steam engines are gone (except for the Berkshires and Northerns) and there seems to be only modern stuff being made. Since my modelling era is 37-52, none of the modern stuff works for me.

Yes.  I've been toying with the idea of getting into S myself, but this has been the main factor that holds me back.

I know what it would take to get more people involved, but I fear that the manufacturers won't give the  market & potential market what they want.  They want real trains that aren't available in S.  If a child sees the parent running trains, that child is more likely to develop an interest in them (which will disappear during teen and early 20s) but many return.

I agree with Rusty that a $100 S gauge train would be a "toy box queen" and probably not stimulate much interest later in life.  A full layout would, even if only the standard 4 x 8.

Rocco posted:

I am reposting my reply here as this is a better place for this discussion.

Hi Francine

I agree it is simple ECONOMICS.  If you do not grow the market and people keep aging out of the market, the market will dry up and you will never get a Hudson, a GS4 or an SD40.  Now if you expand your market and more dollars are flowing in then you can do more things.  So say new tooling allocations are set at 10% of total sales.  if sales are $10 then they will allocate $1 to new tooling if sales go to $100 then they will allocate $10 to new tooling.  If bringing in new people by building Thomas, Harry Potter or Hot wheels increases sales to $1000. Then they will have $100 for new tooling.  Now the ECONMICS will decide if they should invest the new tooling in Fantasy or in Classic.  The odds are they will do a mix as they want to continue to pull in new blood but they want that new blood to move to the more expensive classic line.

Anyway I have tried my best to explain why both are needed.  I appreciate that those on this forum are of course vested in the classic line (Gilbert, Flyerchief, Legacy), but they need to understand that in order to get new tooling dedicated to what they want, the market needs to expand.

--Rocco--

Back to economics 101:  Economics is the allocation of scarce resources.  If you allocation the small amount that is invested by Lionel/MTH into child's toys, there will be little to nothing for FlyerChief/Legacy, which would starve S into extinction (I dont see much if anything new from American Models).  I understand getting kids involved, but cheap crap is cheap crap and the kids of today are much more sophisticated electronically then the kids of years ago.  A cheap set will be a toy box special that gets broken and forgotten quickly.  However, if a child sees a functioning layout, even if only 4 x 8, that makes an impression especially when well detailed with nice scenery.

Feed the child market, not much return, while starving the S general market would destroy it, maybe permanently.

Quick Casey said:

"I heard this argument too, and it is invalid."

If in reference to my statements, I wasn't making an argument, I was stating what is to me a fact, Jack.

Simply put:

The variety and availability in scale S SUCKED, and it eventually drove me from the scale.

Bluntly put:

I've long ago given up on the scale and quit wasting my ever-shortening time (I have an unknown expiration date) on trying to pursue such a dead-in-the-water scale.

I really wish it weren't so, but that's the way it was/is in my modeling world.

Andre

Francine posted:

(I dont see much if anything new from American Models).  

While American Models hasn't exactly been a ball of fire, I think we still have to give them their due.

I think given the financial resources available to them, they've actually out produced Lionel and MTH combined.

Rusty

Through time on this really continuing subject and conversation us "Old Guys" keep talking about trains-for-kids to bring them into the hobby. Thomas, Harry Potter, and Polar Express.  And we see Lionel introduce sets for Snooby Doo, Mickey Mouse, and Hot Wheels in O the 2019 catalog. 

It is my feeling that Lionel is targeting grandparents not kids for these train sets.  That means "Old Guys" do the buying. 

Us "Old Guys" got our first trains when we were young.  When we got older we mostly put them away for years and years until as adults we could enjoy them again as a hobby.  They are no longer toys for us, but how we enjoy each other and these expensive items in our spare time.

My point is targeting kids to bring people into the hobby won't help our generation.  We need to find a way to bring people into the hobby who are the age we were when we got the trains out and started collecting and operating our childhood trains. 

I don't think Lionel, American Models, and MTH can achieve this by what they produce.  I think we have to do this by bringing in people in their late 30's and early 40's, who have the disposable income to afford today's cost of playing trains. 

Simply, it's us not them who must work to enlarge the number of people in S and all gauges.

To do this we need to invite these new people to our shows, our homes, and our club sites and show them how much fun it is to participate in this hobby.     

I love Studebakers and "S" gauge.

I sense a theme here...