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My guess is when the multi remote comes out it will be a huge success because the LC and LC+ line seems to garner high praise. Folks seem to have bought a lot of these sets and engines. Some with collections that have probably 20+ engines.  So big the LC folks will want more.  I was browsing the web and came across a possible secret Lionel site.  I think they're already expecting the demand! 

Introducing the "Multi, multi, LC Remote".  Of course this is me having some fun, but will 3 engines be enough to satisfy?  In another thread folks are asking about WiFi control of LC and LC+.  While the LC isn't for me, I'm interested to see what more you want from this line?  Is WiFi a real need or concern?  More features?  Accessory and switch control?  Of course IMO more variety of engines would be nice. 

So what do you want to add to LC and LC+.  I think though you have to remember that this system was a lower cost, less complicated alternative to TMCC and Legacy that the consumers wanted so in that spirit the additional features you would like need to be something that will NOT drive up the cost significantly.  It has to stay at a price point that is consider preferable to a basic Legacy engine.

LC

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Last edited by MartyE
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I would like a LC+ Polar Express and a LC+ 44-tonner.  As far as the LC+ multi train remote, I think what they have proposed is in the sweet spot.  My family has four LC sets that have been delivered by Santa over the years.  We will most likely start graduating to LC+ as my kids get older.  I have Legacy and DCS on the big layout.  But LC and LC+ are great for temporary or small layouts.  Very simple and adds so much fun with multiple train action with minimal to no extra wiring.  I really see not need to put much more development time into the track system working with LC and LC+.  I would like to see them work on a Legacy II system that is wifi or Bluetooth that can be added to all of their products from traditional to scale.     

Last edited by Miken
laz1957 posted:

Yes JOHN, I do know that.  If Lionel could make a module to put in the Cab 2 you could have the best of both worlds?

Well, any "system" would very likely be connected to the Legacy base serial port and operate similar to the LCS WiFi box.  Such a system is obviously possible, though I have no idea what's in Lionel's corporate thinking of if they are, or ever would, consider such a system.

I think a TMCC/Legacy bridge is a good idea and will no doubt eventually be made. It basically will take the Legacy/TMCC signal and turn it into 2.4 GHz radio commands that are LC/LC+ compatible. 

A bigger market may be a multi-loco remote that can address any number of locos with a display added to the planned 3 loco handheld.  Similar transmitters for R/C models can be had for as little as $100-150, and would be useful for those with many LC/LC+ locos, which is going to happen sooner or later, given the popularity of the systems and the number of set locos out there.  Given that the power needed will be much less, a multi-loco remote with display should be under $100 MSRP I'd guess.

A digital system can benefit from a simple display and a display is pretty much standard in all but the lowest cost R/C transmitters.  They are not terribly expensive, as I've noted.

Last edited by Landsteiner

MartyE, I actually really like that picture you put together.  

As far as actual improvements the the basic system in use for LC/+, I'd love to see 2 additional real buttons for the couplers, rather than using a double click of the horn and bell buttons.  I don't think the issues I posed in the other thread are things that could be changed in a cost effective way this far into production.  

I suspect that a wifi device might actually be the answer when getting into many trains, or control of accessories and switches.  You can build one piece of hardware that would contain a 99 cent 2.4Ghz radio(nRF24L01+) , a 99 cent Wifi radio(ESP8266), a $1.50 micro-processor(AtMega168), and a power supply. with that you could make an app similar to the ones offered for the higher end command systems that would allow control of everything on your railroad.  There is no actual need for a multi button remote, and I suspect the gap in product for folks with more than 3 LC/+ engines will be filled at some point with a wifi-smart device conttroler, and/or a LC/+ to Legacy bridge.

I know some folks see LC/+ as lionel's answer to folks demanding something simple, but I don't see it that way.  I think the cab1L fills that niche.   I would guess the the folks really driving the expansion of LC/+ fall into two camps.  First, there are folks that were uninterested in TMCC/Legacy for whatever reason, and stuck to conventional trains.  Once they got a LC+ remote in their hands, though, it turns out they liked the simple functionality.  This isn't the same as folks that thought the other systems too complex, but folks that didn't think anything of the command systems and were previously simply content with conventional control.  The second camp I see is the folks that would love all the features and such offered in legacy engines, but simply can not afford them.  The lowest cost legacy engines are right around the same price point as the most expensive LC+ engine, and this will have a huge impact on sales.  Folks that could previously only afford conventional engines are now getting those same sorts of engines with a simple form of command control.  or, folks that may have been buying used TMCC might now chose to but new LC+ in the same price range... and get better low end speed control.  

As has been discussed many times, I really doubt Lionel expected the demand they got from "train people" for LionChief.  I expect it was intended to be put in starter sets to drop the manufacturing costs, and make the product 'safer' and easy for kids and non-train-people to use.  LionChief Plus was the answer to that demand, and for the money, to me it is the best thing out there.  

On the topic of running LC/+ on a legacy system, I can agree with GRJ that I don't know if it is in Lionel's business plan to offer such a product, but if they wanted to, it would cost about $5 in parts and take one of their techs only a few days to get the framework of the thing in place.  I'm sure the folks that design the packaging and figure out production logistics would need quite some time after that, but the actual guts of the thing is painfully simple.  I'll be posting much more, in-depth, information on this when I get back home.  7 days straight of 14 hour days away from home has cut into my project time.

 

As I was writing this up I had another thought regarding a direction that is possible.  Likely, I do not know, but it seems plausible to me.   The thought is simply that whatever the next generation of command control is, after Legacy, it would use the radio system that LionChief products use, and have native support for LC/+.  This high end system could then make use of a bridge device to allow it to communicate with Legacy for backwards compatibility.  Perhaps a simple serial cable that plugs the devices together much like the DCS system allowed control of TMCC even though it was an entirely different radio and data system.  

JGL

I currently have 3 RTR sets. All purchased the last month or so and all for around the tree Christmas layout only.

I do not plan on running any LC or LC+ on the my main layout, but these are so nice I may change my attitude on that.

Nice remote you made. Your remark about cost  I think is very important .

something that will NOT drive up the cost significantly.  It has to stay at a price point that is consider preferable to a basic Legacy engine.

IMO if Lionel lets the price go up it will loose the intended market for these RTR sets. I think right now it is a great introduction to toy trains and Lionel has a winner.

The universal remote is a great idea for 3 individual engines. I do look forward to that.

 

pine tree junction posted:

I like to see a button on the LionChief controller to activate the command fastrack switches. The controller does that, not the engine. When you get close to the switch, just hit the button to activate it. Simple. Lionel I hope your listening. This would make the system complete. Nothing to program, just running your trains.  

I'm not sure that I follow what you're saying here.  Could you explain it again, because if it's what it seems like, the tech to accomplish it would be something entirely different than what LC/+ has, and would be fairly complex.  

JGL

pine tree junction posted:

I like to see a button on the LionChief controller to activate the command fastrack switches. The controller does that, not the engine. When you get close to the switch, just hit the button to activate it. Simple. Lionel I hope your listening. This would make the system complete. Nothing to program, just running your trains.  

You're talking about a major change, I can tell you that ain't happening any time soon.   In order to handle the command switches, you have to individually address them with a TMCC command coming from a TMCC/Legacy base.  This opens up the whole can of worms we've been talking about!

Simple might be the operation, but simple is not the word to describe the implementation of this idea!

It's not complex, you simply hit the button on the remote to throw the switch when you're coming to it. There's nothing to program. It keeps the simplicity of the system the way it is now. You're running your Lionchief trains without any problems. Having switches on a layout is a lot of fun for many of us. Sooner or later, I hope sooner, Lionel will put that feature on the remote to make some of our layouts more enjoyable with this system. Again, it's not legacy, you're not programming anything, you're just running and having fun with your trains.

 

 

It's not your imagined operation that complex, it's how you'd get there!

There is no functionality anywhere in the LC/LC+ system that would address the TMCC switch.  There is no functionality anywhere in the TMCC/Legacy or LC/LC+ system that could know exactly where the locomotive is without adding a ton of expense and track sensors all over the place. 

You are obviously missing the point, the functionality you are describing is certainly not Legacy, TMCC, or LC/LC+, it's something that hasn't been done for any of those systems yet!  Please refer to one of my favorite sayings, as it certainly fits this situation!

Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

Second Week of February • Notch 6 • Derek Thomas

This is when Lionel Corporation and several of their representatives will set down with Derek to go over the first Catalog for 2016. I hope that Derek sees this thread and ask the company about some of the questions proposed by; MartyE and other members who have and will comment on this thread. 

I have 3 LionChief Plus on my layout, NYC Hudson, Rio Grande RS-3 and Rio Grande FT / A-B-A. The reason I got into LionChief+ was do give visitors to my "Man Cave / Train room", something to do when in the train room. This has been very successful. These controllers are great for my grandchildren and  visitors. Just last week my Carrier Heating Tech., was in my neighborhood on a service call, my cell phone rings and it is these two Carrier Techs, one had been to the Train Room and the other was new to the company. He ask if he could come in and see the trains to show the new guy, I said, sure. They were only 5 minutes away..

The guys come in and I hand each one a LionChief+ controller and turn them loose in the train room. They had a blast, stayed about 45 minutes and had a ton of questions. Giving a visitor a DCS Remote Controller, TMCC or Legacy, just takes to long to get a visitor up to speed.

Notch6 Logo Derek Thomas

Gary and

DETROIT AND MACKINAC RAILWAY Cheers from PASSENGER CAR v6

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Last edited by trainroomgary

PCRR, I think GRJ cut to the meat of it, but as I tend to do, I feel like rambling on with technical stuff.  The idea is great. As the engine gets near a switch you press a button and throw a switch.  With the fewest number of parts here's what you need to do that.  

A TMCC base to talk to the switches on the 455KHz radio frequency that they use.

A sensor of some kind on each leg of each switch to detect that a train is approaching.  I would probably use an RFID tag, though the infrared sensors that Lionel already makes would work as well.  In any case the engines need to be fitted with some form of electronic id tag so that the switch knows not only that an engine is coming, but WHICH engine is coming.   

Sensors/connections to the switches to know which way they are thrown.

A 2.4GHz radio that can listen for commands from the remote.

All of these sensors, the radio, and the TMCC base then need to be connected to a micro-processor of some sort that can take the radio command when you press the remote button, scan the sensors to see if that engine is near a switch, then if it is, look up the TMCC address for that switch, find out which way the switch is thrown, then send out the command to throw it the other way.  

This sounds like an awesome science fair project, but it is impossible for a marketable product.  No one is going to want to to add a ton of wires and sensors to switches where the whole point is that they require no wires at all.  Never mind that the cost per switch would be insane.   I suppose you could use the 2.4GHz wireless network for all the sensors as well to get rid of the wires, but you still need to add 4 sensors on each switch

As an afterthought, you also need some way to program the switches into the device, so either a way to read the Cab1, and use that for programing, or a keypad on each switch controller.  

Afterthought #2: Even if you have all this in place, you're still humped if you want to install back to back switches, as there would be no way for a device to know which switch to throw.  I suppose you could go with high precision GPS, but I believe that the sort of 1-2 inch precision that would be needed would make legacy engines seem like they are in the bargain price bin.  

Afterthought #3:  After all that, you are still not compatible with and current engine as you would have to install the tracking hardware on every engine you have.  


 

Now If I wanted to make an entry level LionChief switch controller, I would sell a unit with a similar remote to those used in LC/+ engines.  Instead of the throttle, each 'click' of the knob would point to a number (1-32, say), and that would select TMCC switch address 1-32. A box would connect much like a TMCC base and talk to that remote, letting it throw TMCC addressed switches.  I doubt this sort of product will come to market because it is firstly, too complex for the target audience, and second, more complex than just using a cab1.  I suppose it is possible that Big L could release LC-Command switches that could talk directly to a 'switch remote' as described above, but I really, really doubt it.  

JGL

Currently waiting on senate approval for my nomination as ambassador of LionChief.  

JohnGaltLine posted: 

JGL

Currently waiting on senate approval for my nomination as ambassador of LionChief.  

Hi John: I also have a Senate nomination for;

"The best use for Apple Speak, on a Mac Book Pro". lol

I have a sexy lady from Apple, who reads all your comments to me.......

Click on Screenshot to enlarge.

John Galtine Speech Start Speaking

Gary, Cheers from The Detroit and Mackinac Railway..............

 

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Last edited by trainroomgary

JGL,

   I understand what you are talking about.  I really like the idea of a Bridge of some kind for LC/LC+ to TMCC/Legacy, for the owners of TMCC/Legacy who also own LC/LC+.  This engineering would only need to be purchased if you already own TMCC/Legacy and want to add a LC/LC+ RTR set to your DCS/TMCC/Legacy layout.  The LC/LC+ stand alone RTR sets would remain as engineered. This bridge might be to expensive to add to the RTR LC/LC+ stand alone sets, it would not be included in the RTR original sets.  It could be added as an option, to some of the LC/LC+ sets, if Lionel deemed it a good business practice.  If I was a Lionel R&D Design Engineering, I would already be working on this, to increase Lionel sales in a big way.   Every guys like me, who already owns a LC/LC+ and both Legacy & DCS would purchase this bridge almost immediately, even if it were an expensive item.

PCRR/Dave

I'd also like to see (or hear) more interesting  and varied (unique to the loco) cab chatter on freight engines, and some actual station announcements on passenger sets. That is a software (meaning, a simple V.O.) issue and really would not complicate the hardware.

I'm a bit bored hearing the same cab chatter on just about every standard LC train.

Guns,

   I give it less than 5 years and there will be a Lionel Bridge Engineered to run LC/LC+ via the Legacy Cab2.  Now it probably will be fairly expensive when it 1st hits the market, and offered as a Legacy option.   However there is way to much money in this kind of seriously advanced remote control engineering, for Lionel to pass this up.  In fact I would bet Lionel R&D Engineering is already working on it, even now, or will in the very near future.  Got to give them about 5 years to pay for the LC/LC+ Multi - Remote they just put out on the market.

Here let me order in advance! -  Hallmark/Lionel Toy Maker Santa Express, via the Cab2 ya got to love it!

PCRR/Dave

DSCN1694

 

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Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Guns,

   I give it less than 5 years and there will be a Lionel Bridge Engineered to run LC/LC+ via the Legacy Cab2.  Now it probably will be fairly expensive when it 1st hits the market, and offered as a Legacy option.   However there is way to much money in this kind of seriously advanced remote control engineering, for Lionel to pass this up.  In fact I would bet Lionel R&D Engineering is already working on it, even now, or will in the very near future.  Got to give them about 5 years to pay for the LC/LC+ Multi - Remote they just put out on the market.

Here let me order in advance! -  Hallmark/Lionel Toy Maker Santa Express, via the Cab2 ya got to love it!

Dave,  

I think you are overestimating just how much R&D is needed to make a Legacy-LC/LC+ bridge.  Lionel has the LionChief radio protocol on hand. They also have all of the documentation for Legacy and an already written code base to read those commands on hand.  Starting from scratch has taken me about 3 weeks, working off and on as time has allowed.  All told maybe 40 hours of work to this point. Somewhere just over 1100 lines of code, and all of $10 in parts.  I expect to add another $10 and a several dozen more lines of code to make everything compatible with legacy, as right now I took a cheap/lazy way out that only works with original TMCC.  Keep in mind that I am only barely proficient, at the hobbyist level, with electronics and programing.  Someone that actually knows what they are doing could have probably done the same thing in half the time and with much neater, more efficient code.  All this is simply going to the point that they guys that design the plastic box everything fits inside will probably have a harder job than whoever's job it is to make the thing work.  

As to the cost, I expect Lionel could offer a bridge device right around $100 and make plenty of money at that point.  The method I'm using will end up with about a $150 price tag if it were ever offered for sale, just to make it worth the time, and would be limited to running 3 LC engines at any one time.  Now, $100-$150 is a fair amount of coin to some folks, but fits right in with most of the other legacy devices such as ASC2's or PowerMasters.  

I do not know if Lionel will bring a legacy/LC bridge to market, but I will drop $20 on a bet that the next generation of command control that replaces Legacy will have native support for LionChief engines, and possibly require a bridge to run Legacy/TMCC engines.  The 2.4GHz digital radio is just too bullet proof and too cheap to pass up on in any wireless control system these days.  

JGL

 

Edit:  

On GRJ's point, I agree, the cost in expanding the sound choices and having engine specific announcements is not in the actual hardware.  I see several factors that are more likely to be a reason we aren't likely to see it.  First, there are costs involved in making new recordings, both in the process of making a recording and editing it to a usable format, and in paying for voice actors and the like.  Second, it is more cost effective to make one sound set in production as you only need to make one part, as opposed to several, engine specific parts.  Lastly , For someone like me, I actually like the generic sounds.  I can repaint my engines with whatever real or fictional road name I like, and it will make no difference with the sounds.  On the other hand I have TMCC engines that have engine/road name specific crew talk, and will find it a bit annoying to have the recording call out 'LionelLines 737' when the locomotive is painted as 'Taggart Transcontinental 4455'

JGL

Last edited by JohnGaltLine

Here is what I find funny about this topic.   First we have TMCC created and in play for over a decade.   Then Lionel improves the system with Legacy and tremendous function and control.  Soon, folks start complaining that it is too complex, to big, to expensive.    Soooo... Lionel releases CAB-1L going back to the future with the TMCC like controller with Legacy functionality.  Ok  Than separately they create LC and LC+ to replace starter set transformer controlled trains.

Boom, hit.  BUT...   too simple, too inexpensive, so can be have more functionality?  Isn't that really CAB-1L the system in the middle?   Why not purchase the system that gives you the amount of functionality you want.

When you buy a car you don't buy the economical version if you want lots of features.  You buy the luxury version.  You have to pay for the features you want.  G

"don't you know that's a lost cause?"

 

It's a lost cause to expect the DCS and Legacy gurus to have any tolerance for those who like the new LC and LC+ systems.  In fact,the pathos of the situation is obvious to anyone who has lived through the last 15-20 years of the hobby, where people seem ardently in need of defending their own particular tastes and preferences, and the existing way of doing things.  The generals are always committed to fighting the last war.  Sort of a three rail trains flat earth society .  It's bizarre but predictable that any discussion about increasing the capability of the relatively new LC/LC+ systems,  or future enhancements brings out the Luddites.

Last edited by Landsteiner

Landsteiner, I concur with your observation, not not with the characterization of "Luddites".   Its really more of a defense of their intellectual investment in a technology.   In computer science, we see this quite often:  the experts at first tend to reject new technologies when those technologies invalidate the years of experience and the investment in time becoming an expert in soon to be outdated tech.   So folks are really defending their ego/expertise in an emotional but logical way (if that makes sense).   

On the other hand, LC/LC+ is in no way a real competitor to TMCC/Legacy.   LC/LC+ does not threaten to upend Legacy/TMCC.   So everyone should just relax and enjoy!   I am! (with my LC+ and DCS).

 

I wonder if LC tech will be passed down to control other functions, like the K-Line dump cars controlled by a remote.   Or the milk can car, where the little guy throws out the cans controlled by a LC remote.   Some have claimed the cost of the radio receiver package to be very small, so perhaps this is possible now or in the future.

If this makes sense (IF), what would be the first LC accessory or car that should be released?

I don't really think there is any call for folks to entrench into one "side" or another here.  People like what they like for various reasons.  There is one thing I'd like to address, however:

GGG: "Boom, hit.  BUT...   too simple, too inexpensive, so can be have more functionality?  Isn't that really CAB-1L the system in the middle?   Why not purchase the system that gives you the amount of functionality you want."

I think more functionality would be nice, but I don't think most fans of LC are asking for it.  As it stands the LC+ engines do about all most of us want them to.  The only issue is bridging the gap between LC and other command systems.  

I do not think the CAB-1L is in the middle. it is just a replacement for the original CAB1.  a few added features but not much.  I expect just as many of these sell to folks so they can run TMCC through DCS than because  people think Legacy is too complex.  People get stuck in their ways, and the look of a cab 1 that hasn't changes in 20 years is reassuring to some folks.  the market for these, however is NOT the same market as for LC/+ engines.  

Another issue for many in this hobby is that while we may 'want' all the bells and whistles and sounds and smokes, we just can't afford them.  I'm not complaining about the prices of legacy engines, just stating that they are beyond my reach, and that of many others, at this time. Buying a cab1L will not make that legacy engine cost any less.  On the other hand, I can afford a $300-400 engine from time to time, and WILL buy one with cruise control and electro couplers from time to time rather than buying a used, 10 year old, TMCC engine for the same price.  

 

Ken-Oscale, I think it is very possible, but do not know if it is worth it for Lionel.  The actual parts required, as you suggested, are insanely cheap.  Less than $5 in low quantity.  Probably half that for a production sized order.  In fact, for something as simple as turning 1 or 2 functions on or off the processor on the radio board it's self could be connected right to a relay module.  $2 for me to build with off the shelf modules, about $.50 in actual component level parts cost.  If I thought there was a market for an independent, non-compatible, wireless accessory and operating car controller, I'd offer one for sale, but the folks that want these sorts of things seem to be firmly entrenched in the high end control systems, so compatibility is a must.  That could be done too, but just not worth the bother at this point.  

 

 

JGL

Ken-Oscale posted:

I wonder if LC tech will be passed down to control other functions, like the K-Line dump cars controlled by a remote.   Or the milk can car, where the little guy throws out the cans controlled by a LC remote.   Some have claimed the cost of the radio receiver package to be very small, so perhaps this is possible now or in the future.

If this makes sense (IF), what would be the first LC accessory or car that should be released?

I don't know if it should be the first, but if it's too expensive to get passenger train announcements that call out stops in each loco, how about a passenger station with lots of announcements triggered by a LC type remote. I'd pay for that one. They could even be kind of generic. You know" train to Chicago leaving on Track two. All aboard" Then, "Train to Penn Station NY now leaving Track 4." That kind of thing. That should be possible, and would have lots of play value.

In fact, MTH could build in sound to their train boards tomorrow. I'd buy that too.

Landsteiner posted:

"don't you know that's a lost cause?"

 

It's a lost cause to expect the DCS and Legacy gurus to have any tolerance for those who like the new LC and LC+ systems.  In fact,the pathos of the situation is obvious to anyone who has lived through the last 15-20 years of the hobby, where people seem ardently in need of defending their own particular tastes and preferences, and the existing way of doing things.  The generals are always committed to fighting the last war.  Sort of a three rail trains flat earth society .  It's bizarre but predictable that any discussion about increasing the capability of the relatively new LC/LC+ systems,  or future enhancements brings out the Luddites.

Always insulting and always assuming you know intent.  So here we go again

I am only commenting base on what is being said in this thread.  All of a sudden folks want to control more stuff with LC+  Ok, but doesn't that raise cost?  Don't folks like LC+ because price point is lower and remote is simpler.  Or are all the CS folks buying it because of the tech.  

 

Ken, Please don't apply your CS problems to this toy train market.  I fix all trains, one versus the other doesn't matter to me.   I am just musing how finicky some customer may be.  You can't please every one all the time, and some times you can barely please them some of the time.

So my only question is will you continue to buy LC+ is the remote gets more complex and the engine approach Legacy price point?  G

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