The resurrection of the TMCC upgrade

When the Legacy System was still in the design faze Lionel did consider offering a Legacy upgrade kit. Lou Kovatch , he and NY, were the chief architects of the system at the time, determined that it would be cost prohibitive to upgrade a steam engine considering all the parts needed.

It would have been cheaper to convert a diesel or electric but at the time new diesel and electric engines were in the $300-500 range. So would anyone want to spend $200 to upgrade a $300 engine. It was determined by management not to offer upgrades.

As far as DD and Ed Bender going out of business that happened when Lionel cancelled his TMCC license agreement. That was due in part to his purchasing large quantities of Railsounds 5.0 boards and selling them along with his upgrade products. Mike Regan, a Lionel employee at the time, put an end to offering RS 5.0 boards. That position continued for a number of years.

This whole situation reminds me of Lionel management’s agreement to allow us to form the TMCC Demo group. Originally it was with the intention to not only showcase Lionel engines but also to show that the CAB 1 system could also operate MTH engines albeit in conventional control. This lasted for about two years until Dick Maddox asked us to only demonstrate Lionel engines. They wanted to sell more Lionel engines and not the competition.

My 2 cents on ERRs TMCC kits. When the Warranties end on an engine, or an older purchased engine is dead. ERR kits revived them. Rather then spend another 200.00 plus in labor and postage to have someone fix them with ERR kits, I found out how easy it was to install these kits and they were my go to's.

ERRs TMCC does everything thing I would want to run a layout, using both MTH, and Lionel systems to control. The engine would creep starting up, uncouple, directional lighting,  smoke on and off, start-up and shut down, sound, horns and whistle, even crewtalk, etc. What more could I ask for? Sure Legacy, has more features, but to be honest, I rarely used them.

If I purchased an engine a decade ago for 400.00 or less, or even todays 759.00 engines, and their value dropped to half or below on resale, it was still economical to replace with an ERR kit. Maybe the sound wasn't great to the particular engine, but it was an engine sound and it was okay with me. Lionel makes still some excellent engines, but when warranty goes and the fix it and postage to ship and have it returned exceeds the value or replacement cost, ERR is the alternative and deciding factor to keep that enine on the layout running. I never want to own a dust collecting shelf queen that will never be run again because of lack being able to repair it. Odd that those mechanical wonderous Lionels from half a century and longer ago can still run, but the new electronic versions when they die, are now only disposable toys except for ERR affordable alternative.

Here's hoping Lionel follows through with words given that ERR will be kept alive for us individual consumers. A mans word, is his honor and how one judges him.

WaynePA posted:

When the Legacy System was still in the design faze Lionel did consider offering a Legacy upgrade kit. Lou Kovatch , he and NY, were the chief architects of the system at the time, determined that it would be cost prohibitive to upgrade a steam engine considering all the parts needed.

 

The biggest stumbling block for the end user to install Legacy is the motor tach sensor. Unlike TAS and DCS its not a simple black/white tape applied to the flywheel. A kit would require either a new flywheel and sensor along with a tool to pull the old flywheel off or a new motor. Might work for older Lionel where only two or 3 different motors were used but would not work for well for any other manufacturers engines.

I know people who have done this but its far from simple.

With the introduction of RCDRs and BEMCs (back emf motor driver) a kit could be offered. It would require redesign of those two boards so harnesses would not have be made by the installer but have simple screw terminals like ERR has provided.

Again, I don't see Lionel to be motivated to do this.

Pete

Got everything but "RCDRs" and even google failed me.  So besides that, why isn't bemf more prevalent in O?  It's seems a good way to go for legacy -- i mean old stuff.

Search this forum. Diagrams and pinouts have already been posted. One downside of back emf is there is no real way to make all your upgraded engines run at the same speed so you couldn't do lashups. That was one of the reason Lionel went to Legacy to allow their engines be synced which MTH had been doing for many years.

Pete

Maybe a letter of thanks to Lionel, for at least the change of heart, would prove more important in their commitment to a future ERR for us all, rather than our opinions here.  Mine is sent.

Bruce Webster

"I'm pretty sure Rudy is out of the California office."

I stand corrected and have altered my post to correct this mistaken statement and apologize for the error.

Norton posted:

Search this forum. Diagrams and pinouts have already been posted. One downside of back emf is there is no real way to make all your upgraded engines run at the same speed so you couldn't do lashups.

Do DCC engines use back emf when double, triple, etc., headed?

That was one of the reason Lionel went to Legacy to allow their engines be synced which MTH had been doing for many years.

 I've seen exact same model Lionel TMCC F units where they don't run at the same speed .

Pete

Landsteiner posted:

For all of you who know what the future holds, I'd like to sell you some stock market tips .

As negative and caustic as some of the writing here is about the future of Lionel command control strategies, I am that optimistic.  Lionel will do things that make sense because that's how you keep customers happy,  and it's simple enlightened self-interest. Will it please everyone?  No.  Look at the negativity about LC and LC+, almost certainly the most successful technology product introduction in the hobby in the last 10 years.  Can't please all the people all the time. I'm sure Lionel regrets having worried or annoyed some people about this, but I'm equally sure they will do things in the future that makes sense in all ways.  If you've listened to Howard, Ryan and Dave's podcasts with Derek you know these folks have good intentions and are much smarter than many of us, in my opinion.

Ultimately, business is dollars and cents! Something, anyone that has had their own enterprise knows. I think all of us just want to voice our opinion to what we expect from the Manufacturers. If they meet or exceed our expectations that's even better! if thee is a financial impact as to their decisions. That is also understandable.

But, If my needs in the hobby are not satisfied by one Company. Then, it's time to go someplace else for my needs. No, different then owning a T car and switching to a F brand. 

Although, the competition is small in the O gauge market. There is still competition to offer alternatives. I believe that's what most are stating in their reply's Even, John will have no choice to continue his passion by doing "ALL "PS3" upgrades. if he deems to do so.

Landsteiner: in life we form perceptions about things! So, "PAST"  perceptions can play a big part in peoples buying decisions in the future!

No, matter where a Company is headed technology wise.  There is a "TRUST factor.  I "THINK" in the back of our minds we all thought about the demise of

the ability to repair these electronic controls trains over a extended period.  So, the lionel statement slapped a lot of us back to reality.

I'm sure it will make me think twice about future purchases. Plus, which direction I should take in the future as far as to operation of my trains. There is something to be said for conventional.......

BobbyD posted:

Norton posted:

Search this forum. Diagrams and pinouts have already been posted. One downside of back emf is there is no real way to make all your upgraded engines run at the same speed so you couldn't do lashups.

Do DCC engines use back emf when double, triple, etc., headed?

That was one of the reason Lionel went to Legacy to allow their engines be synced which MTH had been doing for many years.

 I've seen exact same model Lionel TMCC F units where they don't run at the same speed .

Pete

 

I have never used DCC so can't comment on speed control though I doubt it uses back emf. I believe each engine can be calibrated for speed but a DCC user will have to verify.

As for TMCC F units. I have only one set of Odyssey F3s (magnet sensor, not back emf)  with three powered units and they do run together but only when Odyssey is turned on. With cruise off they don't run together. Your mileage obviously varies.

Pete

"Even, John will have no choice to continue his passion by doing "ALL "PS3" upgrades. if he deems to do so"

For some of us that's a non-starter, so we'll wait and see what Lionel's future upgrade path is.  I've been purchasing Lionel, K-Line (RIP), Weaver (RIP), MTH, Atlas and 3rd Rail products for decades.  I have no reason from my experience to exclude any of them from consideration.  As far as "trust" I save that sort of profound judgement for personal and professional relationships, not consumer decisions. It's all about experience, ratings by consumer testing organizations, price and other tangibles, not trust, at least for me.  I don't buy Subaru's or Toyota's or Ford's because I trust them but because of experience, ratings and price.  The last is why I don't buy no safer nor more reliable Mercedes, Audis, Cadillacs, etc.  Nothing to do with trust.  I like Lionel's products, but trust has exactly zero to do with it.

Landsteiner posted:

If you've listened to Howard, Ryan and Dave's podcasts with Derek you know these folks have good intentions and are much smarter than many of us, in my opinion.

Obviously speaking for yourself here.

I am just think out loud, a patent is give for 20 years, am I correct? Second, TMCC came out in 1994-95 right? So if my assumptions are correct than the patent expired 2014-2015 right. Not trying through gasoline on a fire but think out loud.

"Obviously speaking for yourself here."

Yes, I've found that speaking for others only works for ventriloquists. 

nvocc5 posted:

I am just think out loud, a patent is give for 20 years, am I correct? Second, TMCC came out in 1994-95 right? So if my assumptions are correct than the patent expired 2014-2015 right. Not trying through gasoline on a fire but think out loud.

The patents should long have expired, they apply 20 years from filing and 17 from the grant date, whichever comes first.  There may be some wrinkles to this, if Lionel filed for additional patents on TMCC over the years, for improved features and such, you could find that only the technology in the original patent filing is now public domain if I recall correctly, so for example if TMCC had improvements and technology is covered under those patents that were filed later, they may be unavailable (and I don't know the status of TMCC patents, how many changes if any were patented later). 

But yes, this could mean that someone could produce TMCC products if they are off of patent, once the patent expires Lionel no longer controls it. The barrier is likely cost of getting this to production, to get the chips designed and built and so forth, but someone could develop a clone Cab 1 controller and also could put out upgrade kits and or supply to other manufacturers without paying a licensing fee. I suspect the practical problem is likely that unless Lionel in effect sells the TMCC business to a third party, where they get access to the various tooling and whatnot for the chips (assuming Lionel owns that, not the factory that produces the chips and the boards), it may not happen because of the start up cost. I hadn't thought of the patents being expired and I would assume that even later patents have expired by now, I suspect very little would be still covered by now. 

I was a model train enthusiast as a kid. Left trains when I was a young teenager to, . . . . well, experience life. Through the years I always had an interest in trains. A "maybe someday" sort of attitude.

"Someday came" when , as an aging and retired man, I returned to trains.

What I learned rather quickly was "these aren't your father's trains!"

Oh my, no, that they are not!

They are far more appealing. The detail, the sounds, the control systems . . .

BUT . . . like so many computerized gimcracks, they are unreliable. PROFOUNDLY so! That is "OK" when dealing with an item costing a small sum of money. Throw it away and get a new one! When an item costs a thousand dollars, and more, it is decidedly not "OK!" It is also decidedly not OK when you really CAN'T replace it. On any given day replacements for the engines I treasure simply are not available. "Just any new loco" certainly will not do!

Of the 16 locos I have bought new in the past 3 years, 6 have required repair. The most costly ones! The steamers! No trouble with any diesel yet. Whether my experience has been typical, or just unusually unfortunate, it has been my experience. It's been such that, basically, I expect all my engines to fail . . . sooner rather than later.

But, "no fear!" You can gut a dead locomotive and restore it to life with ERR kits. All by yourself! (Shipping a big steamer to the US from Canada for repair costs hundreds of dollars!). I tried it on a particularly valued, and very newish "shelf queen." A more than $1500 purchase that had me especially depressed. It worked! It came back to life. Still runs!

Now it appears that Lionel is likely to take that capability away.

I am already a little sour on what I have discovered since returning to the hobby.

Knowing what I know now, I likely would never have returned at all. At least not to O gauge.  

I see the day rapidly approaching when I take the layout down, and farm it out at fire sale prices, certainly saving a few treasured pieces for a glass display case. I've already mentally picked the few that will remain. 

IMO, meant to offend nobody, there is a deep malaise in this O gauge train industry. If the car industry produced products so consistently unreliable as the O gauge train manufactures, they would quickly pass into well-deserved oblivion. 

ERR was a backstop to this inherent unreliability. Without it I am unable to defend myself against an industry sorely lacking any kind of quality control. 

The very term "shelf queen" is a ****ing indictment against the industry. There should be no shelf queens! At least none younger than 10 years or so.

Sure, the PW stuff, being so inherently simple electronically, will run forever but they just don't appeal to me. 

The demise of ERR, with no replacement, will certainly increase my resolve that maybe this hobby just isn't worth it. If the idea is to spur me into buying new locomotives rather than repairing the ones I already have, nothing is less likely to happen. 

"Ultimately, business is dollars and cents!"

Well, yes, certainly and obviously - and I've got both. I'm not shy about spending them on a product of value to me. So, "dollars and cents" don't exist in a vacuum - unhappy customers don't spend these "dollars and cents".

-----------

I do hope that Lionel, et al, can make an ERR-like company/product/arrangement happen. I am waiting to see. I will be a customer. I have, indeed, gone into wait-and-see mode, especially about any Lionel purchases. If a positive result appears, I'm back; if not, I'm gone.

So, before I leave this discussion behind (I'm trying...), let me just make a personal point about the whole thing, why. I believe, it upsets so many of Lionel's core and hard-core customers, nay, one could say "supporters", and its potential effect in at least some cases.

It's a diverse hobby, 3-Rail O-scale/gauge, far more so than any other part of the model railroading endeavor, and there are many reasons to get into it and enjoy it. I respect all of them (not sure about that blue loco with the face, though - that's creepy), and enjoy some of them. Some like scenery, some track work, some operations, some build layouts "for the grandkids", some like building layouts, and so forth.

Then there are the engine (and rolling stock) guys. Me. It's all about the trains. I can scratch bash an accurate 2-10-0, but I can't make a tree to save my life - and I don't care. Buy them from the guys who make such stuff - and make it beautifully, usually. I like it; I just don't do it.

So, when a change comes along that threatens the way I practice and enjoy my core model railroading behavior , I am upset. I am not going to become a layout builder, a tree builder, a signal installer or anything else. When the center goes, the satellites follow. I'm not going to DCC or DCS. I'm 70 years old this month, have a bunch of nice locos and cars, and I'm not going to change. I also don't much like DCC or DCS, bottom line. I tried. 

Anyway, that's the problem for me. The main reason I'm here (3RO, Hi-rail locomotive modification and command operation) is in danger of being greatly curtailed, not to mention the repair issues, so the rest, including magazine subscriptions, is looking shaky. 

That's why many of us got all puffed up, I think.

here is where I see an issue I don't buy $500 engines I like the features of tmcc I have no use for Legacy my dcs and tmcc does all I need. so by getting rid of ERR all that does is takes away my fun factor in model trains and Lionel and drive me over to MTH's cheaper DCS trains which sadly I use tmcc more than dcs.  sad I liked the err boards and the upgrades.

Landsteiner posted:

"Even, John will have no choice to continue his passion by doing "ALL "PS3" upgrades. if he deems to do so"

For some of us that's a non-starter, so we'll wait and see what Lionel's future upgrade path is.  I've been purchasing Lionel, K-Line (RIP), Weaver (RIP), MTH, Atlas and 3rd Rail products for decades.  I have no reason from my experience to exclude any of them from consideration.  As far as "trust" I save that sort of profound judgement for personal and professional relationships, not consumer decisions. It's all about experience, ratings by consumer testing organizations, price and other tangibles, not trust, at least for me.  I don't buy Subaru's or Toyota's or Ford's because I trust them but because of experience, ratings and price.  The last is why I don't buy no safer nor more reliable Mercedes, Audis, Cadillacs, etc.  Nothing to do with trust.  I like Lionel's products, but trust has exactly zero to do with it.

I understand your view. But, service and parts availability are still important factors to me.

As others have said, all we can do is hope for the best with the future. Any business is concerned with the bottom line, how to maximize revenue and profits, and Lionel is no different (being a private company, their decisions play out a bit differently then a public company does because they don't have the pressure of pleasing stock analysts, it is why Bose among some other companies refuse to go public).   Given the fact that despite the moaning and complaining about Lionel engines and such being too expensive, the quality not being good, can't be repaired, etc, the reality is that that part of the market, the expensive engines, is providing them with a lot of revenue, pure and simple, which means that despite all the complaints and issues and whatnot, people are still willing to buy the products...and while I take as written the words that say that the management cares about the community using Lionel trains, they care about tradition, etc, in the end they are going to do what they need to to keep the cash cow going, which is new, high margin products being sold, and so far despite the many things people are not happy about, they are able to do that and apparently make a nice profit at it. Obviously it would be great if they realize that being able to do the old ERR kind of upgrade is a way to spur the hobby that could translate into later sales (if TMCC works great for someone, might get curious about legacy), but right now we really don't know. I think those who say we all should just buy legacy products and forget about TMCC are very fortunate, that they can afford them and for example if one croaks and they can't fix it are okay with that, others can't, aren't so fortunate, and yet the people doing ERR upgrades are a part of this community too, hopefully Lionel does recognize that. After all, you can still get parts from Lionel for older generations of conventional engines, can still get brushes and bearings and other things from older engines, so they have some recognition of the past, even though the parts business likely doesn't make them a lot of money. 

Well I am just now building my first O gauge layout. I just feel very lucky to have missed the "early-adopter" stage of the modern train electronics.  I can only imagine the scars and wallet damage that a lot of folks here must have suffered. But honestly I feel lucky to be getting into the hobby now. The practices and "norms" for a layout builder and operator using the new technologies have evolved into a good place -- from my non-knowledgeable viewpoint. I am currently laying track and have done no wiring yet. So I am soon going to have to make a decision about whether or not to run any conventional stuff at all. Running conventional would mean I have to do some block wiring. Probably a good idea just to be able to isolate shorts and trouble shoot. But if I don't run any conventional motive power, I could skip it if I wanted to. And stuff like installing uncouplers? Hah! I'm sure there will be spots on the layout where I want some. But probably not too many. I will be running both TMCC and DCS. The conventional locos I have will either be upgraded or sold. Or if I put in the blocks I could keep them and have "conventional night" from time to time.  I dunno. But I like where the hobby is now for someone like me. We have a strong base of competing suppliers and for all the problems new technologies are bringing with them, they are also obsoleting major PITAs that  previous generations have had to deal with.  Maybe I'll think differently in 2 years. Right now, ERR or no ERR, I'm a pretty happy camper.

Don

Norton posted:

BobbyD posted:

Norton posted:

Search this forum. Diagrams and pinouts have already been posted. One downside of back emf is there is no real way to make all your upgraded engines run at the same speed so you couldn't do lashups.

Do DCC engines use back emf when double, triple, etc., headed?

That was one of the reason Lionel went to Legacy to allow their engines be synced which MTH had been doing for many years.

 I've seen exact same model Lionel TMCC F units where they don't run at the same speed .

Pete

 

I have never used DCC so can't comment on speed control though I doubt it uses back emf. I believe each engine can be calibrated for speed but a DCC user will have to verify.

As for TMCC F units. I have only one set of Odyssey F3s (magnet sensor, not back emf)  with three powered units and they do run together but only when Odyssey is turned on. With cruise off they don't run together. Your mileage obviously varies.

Pete

I am not currently a DCC user, but I have read a bit about it. I don't know if all decoders have this feature, but some allow speed matching down to a knat's posterior. Some decoders have enough speed settings to make your head spin. And getting things all set sounds like it could be a tedious project. I'm guessing it would become easier with time and experience. I do find DCC very interesting and plan to give it a try one of these days.

Although DCC is a standard not all of the decoders allow the same adjustments or if they do they could be at different locations (CVs). I think there is a basic set of functions in all decoders that are all the same (the basic standard), but some of the more sophisticated settings are left up to the decoder manufacturers as far as CV numbers and what they include or omit.

I believe with DCS and Legacy they have taken the tedious work out of the speed matching, gotten things pretty close or close enough which makes it much easier on the end user. Also from what I have read about DCC, I think our DCS and Legacy systems probably do things like this in other areas as well, making them more user friendly for us. Both the DCS and Legacy systems have worked well for me so far and I am happy with both. My interest in DCC would be for the 'fiddling' aspects of setting up all those CVs and whatever else has to be setup by the end user. Maybe it won't be so interesting after I have done some 'fiddling'?

I have learned a lot this last week from reading this thread and the prior one.  I hope Lionel executives read it from top to bottom.

At the core of our hobby, seldom do we throw anything away, so the though of dumping an engine in the garbage because it doesn't work is repugnant.

Resale vale is important.  While there maybe one or two people here or there that do not care about buying something that costs $1k or $2k and have it become worthless, unless of course we are talking about drinking a few bottles of Cristal Champagne at some exclusive bar, most of us want our trains to hold some value.  Historically, this has been the case with Lionel trains.  If the trains cannot be fixed, then who would want to buy it in the secondary market?  Further, I have read numerous times on the Forum that we often sell our old equipment to buy new items. 

Given that ERR can be used to breath new life in a variety of engines using a variety of control systems, it is vital that their is enough demand for this product to make it viable for a third party to assume production.  

Well, I will probably raise some hackles here. I will have to wait as will everyone else to see what comes about. I enjoy the wireless control systems, TMCC/Legacy so much that I will run them till they don't run anymore. As far as the idea of cancelling my order for the new Legacy products I have on order, no way, I'll run them till they die also, most likely they will out live me.

Ray

I've read all of the posts concerning the demise of Err. I just finished another about a Gentleman making a N&W Y6a out of a Lionel Y6b...There were a few Pictures posted of an engine that was custom built by ( D500 ) from a Williams 2-8-2 Brass engine into a GM&O 2-10-0. he also added Err electronics. 

This is but one of many who do this type of work. I realize that a company can't put their futures into what may or may not be bought, but if they are going to do it for 3rd Rail, and Atlas, make some more for the rest of us. 

I myself was getting ready to call Ken, and spring for new electronics for my Williams Brass N&W J611, Lionel 6-18000, and a couple of sets of the Williams E-7's that I have.

Well yes, there is MTH DCS, but after some members of our Model Railroad Club were invited to visit, and see the "Pennsylvania and Western" Model Railroad, and run trains with the owner. I got a whole different take on just how good the Old "Lionel TMCC System" truly is, and the Err is just a modern upgrade for that...

This is just my 2 cents, and not worth much to anybody, but I do hope that the new owners and engineers of Lionel Fame will certainly reconsider what they are about to do.... 

Maybe Mike Reagan will rethink, and get back into the electronics business once again, thus filling a void for all of us Model Railroading guys....! 

Rayin"S" posted:

As far as the idea of cancelling my order for the new Legacy products I have on order, no way, I'll run them till they die also, most likely they will out live me.

Unlikely:  my 3-yr-old Legacy engine is already breaking down--problems with the smoke unit, the sound, and the lighting.

Some of you guys need to step back, take a breath, and then look at it from a systems approach.  K-Line, Weaver, any other OEM manufacture that used TAS is obsolete and unsupported, period.  Those that used QSI tech are pretty much in the same boat. 

Now for some of those system, Lionel still has R2LC and RS Power Supplies, RS 4.0 and 5.0 sound boards that you can use to fix those engine.  OF course TAS bottom board was a combination mother board, Motor Driver, and cruise control with Tach.  Not Lionel's model,  So if motor drive goes your out of luck.

You can always go and get a basic reverse unit and sound card.  But draw back will be loss of command, and loss of cruise control.

ERR filled that gap, and besides making an upgrade also made a repair package for those OEM TAS units.  Or K-Line and Lionel ODY units.  Unfortunately gone.

MTH us still a viable upgrade to those K-Line, Brass and Cast Weaver, Atlas etc....  You can run it conventional, DCS, or DCC if you want to move away from Legacy and DCS.

I am not sure how many folks are just TMCC only?  I would think a small group.  Or Legacy or DCS only.  Choices to make, but this is no different then something going obsolete after a long run.

PS-2 3V is a great board, but the microprocessor is gone.  Same with PS-1 chips.  The PIC chip is obsolete.  What remaining stock exist is in MTH hands, but they can only make so many more sounds chips before they are gone.

But let's not forget the used market.  I can keep PS-1 engines running for another decade or more.  Add Marty, John, and others, let alone I fix most boards.  It is rare that I have to replace, though it does happen.

So, think how many R2LC, RS Power Supplies, RS 4.0/5.0 boards, and mother boards are out on the market from upgrades.

But it is true that ONLY MTH has used a model to make their latest Tech backward compatible.  I can fix a PS-1 or PS-2 5V with a PS-2 3V and Now PS-3.  I am sure when PS-4 comes out it will be the repair part for PS-3 engines.  New runs of MTH engine become the source of new motors and such to repair the first run.  It has been this simplicity in approach that has allowed MTH engine to be kept running.  Not cosmetic parts, but the main items to keep an engine running.  This means there has not been much in the area of new features and such, but the approach to not make every engine a snowflake (one of a kind design) pays off.  They cater to the middle of the road approach to this.

If your a Lionel only type of guy, then you have picked your poison and need to live with it.  Sure complain to management, but you bought in to their approach.  Buy some LC+ and go run trains.  TMCC is obsolete.  By the way, that makes my layout obsolete.  It is K-Line track with TMCC and mostly TMCC engine, along with some Conventional and PS-1 engines.  But I seriously imagine I will be dead and buried and my grandkids can still run my layout for a while. 

This is not the end of the world, but it is sad.  Jon Z took the best of the TMCC stuff, went Back EMF, and packaged a wonderful product to make engines TMCC engine.  OF course the industry is well beyond TMCC and 3 basic function controls.  Integrated smoke, ditch lights, flashing MARS, markers, Rule 17 are all highly desired by much of the market, and TMCC could not give you this.  Once you add GRJ Super Chuffer, Tach control and aux lighting package, your well over $300 in just parts and you still fell short of PS or Legacy features.  As Marty would say, "it is what it is".  G

The really great thing about model railroading it encompasses a great many interests.

Benchwork construction,  landscaping, track work, building construction, electronics/electrical, computing, locomotive building, rolling stock construction.....well you get the idea.

What I believe we have learned over the last week. Is that a substantial number of people enjoy upgrading electronics, repairing and restoring broken engines as part of their hobby. I’d included myself here.

There is something really satisfying about taking the old, outdated and broken and restoring it to operation.

I bet a substantial number of us are also into other “old junk” be it full size trains, classic cars, bikes etc.

When part of the hobby that was enjoyed by many was apparently threatened there was a “Tremor in the Force” so to speak. 

It’s the most riled up I have ever seen this forum since I started with 3 rail O gauge in 2006.

 Nick

Planned obsolescence.  It’s important to know your customer and their wants and needs, even if you think they are a pain or technically inept. You can speak to Lionel directly with your wallets. Your actions always speak louder then words. 

GGG posted:

I am not sure how many folks are just TMCC only?  I would think a small group. 

I am one of that small group.  Since I made the decision back in 2000 or so to be TMCC only, I learned to do the upgrades myself (first with Digital Dynamics stuff, then a little TAS and for a long time now ERR).  I've always kept some extra boards on hand in case I bought anything new that needed an upgrade or a board went out.  In all that time and with well over 50 conversions, I've had 2 board failures: one Digital Dynamics and one TAS.  I've never had an in-service ERR board go bad.  I did smoke a couple during installation, but that's my fault not theirs.

Personally I can survive even if ERR disappears forever but I sure hope it sticks around in some form.  Lionel's handling of this entire situation, from the 'imminent shutdown' announcement to the management-speak attempt at damage control has soured me on buying any new Lionel trains.  That's for sure.

Between this posting and the prior concerning the demise of ERR, much information has been presented for all.  Both, in form of what we, Forum members, and the "other side of the fence" have to say and present as "facts".  However, the one fact that remains constant is the decision by Lionel management to upset and anger, frustrate and cause anguish, the base customers and financial backing of their company.  This, alone, is something Lionel management needs to take very seriously into any considerations they eventually move on.  I, as some others, wish to remain optimistic about the entire event, and forth-coming end results.  I have mostly TMCC engines, over 35 now, a couple PS2 and PS3, but almost all PS1 have been converted due to ERR products.  I have several more I want to upgrade, both Dc and a few older AC pulmor motored.  I do not have DCC, DCS, and have no need to add more control systems to what I have, as TMCC runs all my roster to my satisfaction and will do so far into the future, I believe.

Let us all witness the outcome and continue to express our thoughts and opinions. They are being read and taken into consideration.  Perhaps not by all we wish to see our posts, but, nevertheless, communication is always good and can lead to positive results liked by all concerned. 

Jesse    TCA

GGG posted:

Some of you guys need to step back, take a breath, and then look at it from a systems approach.  K-Line, Weaver, any other OEM manufacture that used TAS is obsolete and unsupported, period.  Those that used QSI tech are pretty much in the same boat. 

Now for some of those system, Lionel still has R2LC and RS Power Supplies, RS 4.0 and 5.0 sound boards that you can use to fix those engine.  OF course TAS bottom board was a combination mother board, Motor Driver, and cruise control with Tach.  Not Lionel's model,  So if motor drive goes your out of luck.

You can always go and get a basic reverse unit and sound card.  But draw back will be loss of command, and loss of cruise control.

ERR filled that gap, and besides making an upgrade also made a repair package for those OEM TAS units.  Or K-Line and Lionel ODY units.  Unfortunately gone.

MTH us still a viable upgrade to those K-Line, Brass and Cast Weaver, Atlas etc....  You can run it conventional, DCS, or DCC if you want to move away from Legacy and DCS.

I am not sure how many folks are just TMCC only?  I would think a small group.  Or Legacy or DCS only.  Choices to make, but this is no different then something going obsolete after a long run.

PS-2 3V is a great board, but the microprocessor is gone.  Same with PS-1 chips.  The PIC chip is obsolete.  What remaining stock exist is in MTH hands, but they can only make so many more sounds chips before they are gone.

But let's not forget the used market.  I can keep PS-1 engines running for another decade or more.  Add Marty, John, and others, let alone I fix most boards.  It is rare that I have to replace, though it does happen.

So, think how many R2LC, RS Power Supplies, RS 4.0/5.0 boards, and mother boards are out on the market from upgrades.

But it is true that ONLY MTH has used a model to make their latest Tech backward compatible.  I can fix a PS-1 or PS-2 5V with a PS-2 3V and Now PS-3.  I am sure when PS-4 comes out it will be the repair part for PS-3 engines.  New runs of MTH engine become the source of new motors and such to repair the first run.  It has been this simplicity in approach that has allowed MTH engine to be kept running.  Not cosmetic parts, but the main items to keep an engine running.  This means there has not been much in the area of new features and such, but the approach to not make every engine a snowflake (one of a kind design) pays off.  They cater to the middle of the road approach to this.

If your a Lionel only type of guy, then you have picked your poison and need to live with it.  Sure complain to management, but you bought in to their approach.  Buy some LC+ and go run trains.  TMCC is obsolete.  By the way, that makes my layout obsolete.  It is K-Line track with TMCC and mostly TMCC engine, along with some Conventional and PS-1 engines.  But I seriously imagine I will be dead and buried and my grandkids can still run my layout for a while. 

This is not the end of the world, but it is sad.  Jon Z took the best of the TMCC stuff, went Back EMF, and packaged a wonderful product to make engines TMCC engine.  OF course the industry is well beyond TMCC and 3 basic function controls.  Integrated smoke, ditch lights, flashing MARS, markers, Rule 17 are all highly desired by much of the market, and TMCC could not give you this.  Once you add GRJ Super Chuffer, Tach control and aux lighting package, your well over $300 in just parts and you still fell short of PS or Legacy features.  As Marty would say, "it is what it is".  G

Very well Put Triple "G"

Bob posted:

GGG posted:

I am not sure how many folks are just TMCC only?  I would think a small group. 

I am one of that small group.  Since I made the decision back in 2000 or so to be TMCC only, I learned to do the upgrades myself (first with Digital Dynamics stuff, then a little TAS and for a long time now ERR).  I've always kept some extra boards on hand in case I bought anything new that needed an upgrade or a board went out.  In all that time and with well over 50 conversions, I've had 2 board failures: one Digital Dynamics and one TAS.  I've never had an in-service ERR board go bad.  I did smoke a couple during installation, but that's my fault not theirs.

Personally I can survive even if ERR disappears forever but I sure hope it sticks around in some form.  Lionel's handling of this entire situation, from the 'imminent shutdown' announcement to the management-speak attempt at damage control has soured me on buying any new Lionel trains.  That's for sure.

Mr. "B", I was the oldest of the group that you invited into your home to see and run trains. I'll all ways remember just how good the "TMCC" System is if it's done correctly like you did. I just hope that someone will pick this product up and keep it going.....We use both systems on our Club Layout, but 100% of the time the TMCC is trouble free where the MTH DCS  is, Well it's DCS, and anything can happen. 

The good thing is we have a resident Electrical Engineer that helps keeps things on the up and up, but when there are problems, it's always the DCS.

Mr. "B" Thank you again for letting the AMRS Model Railroad Club from Ashland-Huntington come and enjoy your Model Railroad...!

"I'll all ways remember just how good the "TMCC" System is if it's done correctly like you did. I just hope that someone will pick this product up and keep it going.....We use both systems on our Club Layout, but 100% of the time the TMCC is trouble free where the MTH DCS  is, Well it's DCS, and anything can happen. 

The good thing is we have a resident Electrical Engineer that helps keeps things on the up and up, but when there are problems, it's always the DCS."

Sometimes my DCS (Remote Commander variety) works. My TMCC always does.

I don't want to let this topic on ERR fall to the bottom of the pile. Could it be that Atlas or 3rd Rail might sell to the aftermarket?

Landsteiner posted:

JohnGaltLines who hasn't posted in almost a year had a mockup converter box that he said worked to operate a LionChief loco from a cab-1, so the reverse (controlling TMCC/Legacy from a LionChief or Bluetooth app) is likely possible and not necessarily all that difficult.Landsteiner posted:

Might you be able to give a reference to the location of this information? I would love to put the FlyerChief remotes away.

Ray

Unfortunately, JohnGaltLine hadn't posted in some time.  He's back as of April 28th.   I don't know whether he ever completed his project of a TMCC/Legacy to LC/LC+ bridge.  You could email him for details as his email is in his profile. Here's one of his posts on the subject below.  If you do a search on his screen name you can find others.  Hopefully he will provide us with followup as he made some really important contributions to the forum.

"I think you are overestimating just how much R&D is needed to make a Legacy-LC/LC+ bridge.  Lionel has the LionChief radio protocol on hand. They also have all of the documentation for Legacy and an already written code base to read those commands on hand.  Starting from scratch has taken me about 3 weeks, working off and on as time has allowed.  All told maybe 40 hours of work to this point. Somewhere just over 1100 lines of code, and all of $10 in parts.  I expect to add another $10 and a several dozen more lines of code to make everything compatible with legacy, as right now I took a cheap/lazy way out that only works with original TMCC.  Keep in mind that I am only barely proficient, at the hobbyist level, with electronics and programing.  Someone that actually knows what they are doing could have probably done the same thing in half the time and with much neater, more efficient code.  All this is simply going to the point that they guys that design the plastic box everything fits inside will probably have a harder job than whoever's job it is to make the thing work.  

As to the cost, I expect Lionel could offer a bridge device right around $100 and make plenty of money at that point.  The method I'm using will end up with about a $150 price tag if it were ever offered for sale, just to make it worth the time, and would be limited to running 3 LC engines at any one time.  Now, $100-$150 is a fair amount of coin to some folks, but fits right in with most of the other legacy devices such as ASC2's or PowerMasters.  

I do not know if Lionel will bring a legacy/LC bridge to market, but I will drop $20 on a bet that the next generation of command control that replaces Legacy will have native support for LionChief engines, and possibly require a bridge to run Legacy/TMCC engines.  The 2.4GHz digital radio is just too bullet proof and too cheap to pass up on in any wireless control system these days.  

JGL

Edit:  

On GRJ's point, I agree, the cost in expanding the sound choices and having engine specific announcements is not in the actual hardware.  I see several factors that are more likely to be a reason we aren't likely to see it.  First, there are costs involved in making new recordings, both in the process of making a recording and editing it to a usable format, and in paying for voice actors and the like.  Second, it is more cost effective to make one sound set in production as you only need to make one part, as opposed to several, engine specific parts.  Lastly , For someone like me, I actually like the generic sounds.  I can repaint my engines with whatever real or fictional road name I like, and it will make no difference with the sounds.  On the other hand I have TMCC engines that have engine/road name specific crew talk, and will find it a bit annoying to have the recording call out 'LionelLines 737' when the locomotive is painted as 'Taggart Transcontinental 4455'"

Since we can't even get the limited set of sounds that ERR offered before they turned off the lights, there's no hope for getting a much larger assortment of sounds.

Doesn't seem like it was that long ago, that a member came to the club meeting, and announced that Lionel was buying out Err. There was almost a Hip-Hip-Hurray done that night. Then a short time afterward it was announced that Mike Reagan of " Train America Fame" was working for Lionel. This told us that they would always be there for products to purchase, and over the top Technical Help, with any problems that may or may not crop up.....Like the old saying goes Change is good, but not all changes are wanted or needed. 

I don’t know that even the title if thus thread is accurate. I wouldn’t say it’s resserected but more like on life support. It’s on a feeding tube and ventilator and it’ll either pull thru on its own or they’ll pull the plug. Wait n see what happens with the future of the product line before you start dreaming about enhanced features and expansion.

Matt Makens posted:

I don’t know that even the title if thus thread is accurate. I wouldn’t say it’s resserected but more like on life support. It’s on a feeding tube and ventilator and it’ll either pull thru on its own or they’ll pull the plug. Wait n see what happens with the future of the product line before you start dreaming about enhanced features and expansion.

Maybe a "Second Look by Lionel" maybe more appropriate.  Regardless I think we need to be positive rather than derogatory otherwise our message gets lost in all the cab chatter.  We can only wait at this point and see what and if there is a next move.  Again we are better than we were over a week ago as far as where this stands.  I'd like to stay optimistic.