gunrunnerjohn posted:Both DD and TAS had PS/1 upgrade TMCC packages. Neither had cruise, one of the things that really would have made a difference. The TAS product was the UCUB and UCUB2.
wow, that's right.But, still satisfied the needs of the time....
Matt Makens posted:I’m not in procurement or engineering so I don't design or order the board or ICs to make them so I dont know and can fathom a guess. The speculation and skepticism on the post are amazing. The simple fact remains that the ERR line was not selling enough product to consumers to remain a viable business segment for Lionel to maintain. Most of the people on here stated they had projects they were waitng to buy upgrades for. Not bought upgrades for but waiting to buy upgrades for. Everybody loves the ERR products and wants to buy them at their convenience which is a nice deal. Wanting to buy something and buying it are not the same thing and wants don’t pay The bills, sales do. My suggestion to everyone reading this, is when and if the 3rd party gets the deal done and arranges the sale to John Q Public, buy the product, buy one for every loco you want to upgrade, buy a spare and buy one for a loco you plan to buy. I know one thing, without our purchases, the product line will cease to exist.
Yes. Purchasing more is my intention - even if I don't "need" them right now. I have installed about 3 dozen ERR kits, mostly steam, over the years. I have some "in stock". I will buy more when and if they become available from Brand X, should that come to pass.
This is really the main way that Lionel (or X) can get my money these days - my purchasing of new locos is very minimal (but not zero).
gunrunnerjohn posted:I don't know about shawn, but I've done more way more than 50 upgrades, so I'd have to say I have easily bought way more than that. I currently have several thousand dollars in ERR inventory, so I'm not part of the problem, I'm part of the solution.
Bring on the Cruise Commanders, I need more!
Since there seems to be "inventory" of EER components out there ( I was able to pick up 4 CC M's from retailers to "finish" what I had planned to do), perhaps there is enough of a market for a run of Super Chuffer's and Chuff Generators???
Please!
Unless something changes, I don't think I can afford to spend the money to make another run of the Super-Chuffer. To get them done in small quantities is price prohibitive, and in sufficient numbers, it's really expensive to sit on that much inventory. I'm still looking for a solution to a smaller run, but I haven't found any vendor yet to do them.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Unless something changes, I don't think I can afford to spend the money to make another run of the Super-Chuffer. To get them done in small quantities is price prohibitive, and in sufficient numbers, it's really expensive to sit on that much inventory. I'm still looking for a solution to a smaller run, but I haven't found any vendor yet to do them.
How many is the magic number?
And what about the Chuff-Generator?
I can't see how this thread can be construed as anything but good information.
necrails posted:Kind of hard to discuss the future of a TMCC upgrade when nothing was offered with regards to any kind of future other than ongoing discussions. I suppose I will be guardedly pessimistic.
TMCC upgrade from conventional or other is now a no-go? Yes/no?
Kerrigan posted:necrails posted:Kind of hard to discuss the future of a TMCC upgrade when nothing was offered with regards to any kind of future other than ongoing discussions. I suppose I will be guardedly pessimistic.
TMCC upgrade from conventional or other is now a no-go? Yes/no?
It can be done with Lionel parts, just nowhere as easily.
Pete
Chris Lord posted:I can't see how this thread can be construed as anything but good information.
As well as, in all it's variations, a unified universal voice stating we want these products & consider them integral to our hobby.
Jim Harrington posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:Unless something changes, I don't think I can afford to spend the money to make another run of the Super-Chuffer. To get them done in small quantities is price prohibitive, and in sufficient numbers, it's really expensive to sit on that much inventory. I'm still looking for a solution to a smaller run, but I haven't found any vendor yet to do them.
How many is the magic number?
And what about the Chuff-Generator?
The Chuff-Generator is in the same boat, they typically sell with the Super-Chuffer. There are still Lionel TMCC equipped locomotive smoke function upgrades, but it takes a lot longer to sell out a production run with just the existing TMCC upgrades, and I have no idea if that market is still active or getting saturated.
GRJ
I appreciate your dilemma. I am finishing my first SuperChuffer and Chuff generator installation (late to the party). So, of course, I am now thinking about doing others if kits were available. I have 2 engines in mind.
While there are a lot of TMCC steam engines that could be upgraded, the real question is how many owners are interested and willing to tackle it themselves, or to pay someone to do it. In my opinion, the improvement in steam effects is so impressive.
If Lionel does not come through with an ERR successor, any thoughts of taking pre-orders for SC/CG and securing boards once you have enough orders? Having said this, I recognize the problem of customers not following through on order commitments. I think that most of us would be OK with pre-payment, if managing all of this is not too much of a pain.
Of course, we are all hoping for the best result: continued availability of ERR products and SuperChuffer and Chuff generator.
Bob
RRDOC posted:GRJ
I appreciate your dilemma. I am finishing my first SuperChuffer and Chuff generator installation (late to the party). So, of course, I am now thinking about doing others if kits were available. I have 2 engines in mind.
While there are a lot of TMCC steam engines that could be upgraded, the real question is how many owners are interested and willing to tackle it themselves, or to pay someone to do it. In my opinion, the improvement in steam effects is so impressive.
If Lionel does not come through with an ERR successor, any thoughts of taking pre-orders for SC/CG and securing boards once you have enough orders? Having said this, I recognize the problem of customers not following through on order commitments. I think that most of us would be OK with pre-payment, if managing all of this is not too much of a pain.
Of course, we are all hoping for the best result: continued availability of ERR products and SuperChuffer and Chuff generator.
Bob
I'm on the same train with Bob. I've got a couple of steamer projects planned (already have the Cruise Commanders), but I don't have the Super Chuffer and Chuff Generator. I also have several that have Super Chuffers but no Chuff Generators. I'd be up for the pre-order/pre-pay option even if you have to raise the price a bit to cover lower quantities and higher headache.
Thanks!
Put me down for three each if John does another run
I live in hope that ERR is resurrected in some form and we can still get the products. Obviously, the door isn't totally closed on the Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator, there's a crack of light showing through. 
I'm hoping I can find a source that will do a smaller run of boards to keep the line going until the ERR fiasco is resolved, one way or the other.
gunrunnerjohn posted:I live in hope that ERR is resurrected in some form and we can still get the products. Obviously, the door isn't totally closed on the Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator, there's a crack of light showing through.
Gee John I thought that might be right up your alley. Think about it, you could sell TMCC upgrades and your super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as one big kit. You just have to take over ERR for us.
I'd just have to find someone to loan me around $50,000 to get it all started... 
John since this pent up demand was released because of ERR problem. I believe any assoicated product would also have a demand. I understand your concern about getting too little product or getting too much of it. If you did a preorder that would give you a better idea of what the demand would be for assoicated product to ERR. People like myself that had the ERR inventory in stock are Out of Luck for the assoicated products. Not only myself but what about the folks that won the ERR lottory and do not have the assoicated products to complete the build. Just some food for thought.
This sent from my phone forgive the misspelling, big fingers, small keyboard.
gunrunnerjohn posted:I'd just have to find someone to loan me around $50,000 to get it all started...
Can someone say "Home Equity Loan" ! Or perhaps "reverse mortgage". J
John am in but I do not have $50,000. Maybe we can start an investor pool, like a Go Fund Me project.
One of my friends has about eight Lionel TMCC locomotives that need new boards because some of them loose the sound, do not take commands and only run in conventional so he got in touch with Lionel and the replay was that they do not have TMCC replacements boards any more therefore he is stuck with these defectives locomotives, Does anybody knows who can be able to repair these unreliable locomotives? This guy is operator not collector, therefore he miss his engines.
I find that hard to believe??
Churu posted:One of my friends has about eight Lionel TMCC locomotives that need new boards because some of them loose the sound, do not take commands and only run in conventional so he got in touch with Lionel and the replay was that they do not have TMCC replacements boards any more therefore he is stuck with these defectives locomotives, Does anybody knows who can be able to repair these unreliable locomotives? This guy is operator not collector, therefore he miss his engines.
I find this hard to believe, if so that means much more than closing ERR. Many of these problems can probably be resolved by a repair tech. Last I checked Lionel still has these parts on the web, but you need to provide specific Model # to validate what is under the hood of his engines. G
I had a chat with CEO of a toy train Company at thenYork TCA show a couple of shows ago. I brought up the fact about prints, (service manuals) and parts availability. He did mention that he had looked into opening up the parts Department during
a open house. So, people can grab parts as needed. I assume with a discount. I rememeber him saying the service people were against it. As, the place would be a mess. Sort of understand!
So, At that time I wasn't able to form a opinion.Hopefully, hw understands our concerns and the need for a path to keep older trains running into the future.
I'm sure easier said than done to start a business (maybe or not from scratch) . BUT, start a Go Fund Me account and I'll help out.
Gray Lackey
Good Idea! Create ur own command system!
NHVRYGray posted:I'm sure easier said than done to start a business (maybe or not from scratch) . BUT, start a Go Fund Me account and I'll help out.
Gray Lackey
shawn posted:Good Idea! Create ur own command system!
And GRJ's tagline comes to mind...
Thanks Marty, I was thinking I was going to have to mention that!
gunrunnerjohn posted:Thanks Marty, I was thinking I was going to have to mention that!
Lol, Johns got the gusto!
RRDOC posted:GRJ
I appreciate your dilemma. I am finishing my first SuperChuffer and Chuff generator installation (late to the party). So, of course, I am now thinking about doing others if kits were available. I have 2 engines in mind.
While there are a lot of TMCC steam engines that could be upgraded, the real question is how many owners are interested and willing to tackle it themselves, or to pay someone to do it. In my opinion, the improvement in steam effects is so impressive.
If Lionel does not come through with an ERR successor, any thoughts of taking pre-orders for SC/CG and securing boards once you have enough orders? Having said this, I recognize the problem of customers not following through on order commitments. I think that most of us would be OK with pre-payment, if managing all of this is not too much of a pain.
Of course, we are all hoping for the best result: continued availability of ERR products and SuperChuffer and Chuff generator.
Bob
I would be one of those people going after the super chuffa. I have the following to upgrade:
Lionel TMCC PRR J1
Lionel TMCC M1a
Lionel TMCC H9
K-line A5?
K-line K4s [2]
K-line USRA 2-8-2
There is a HUGE sound difference between 4 chuffs and 2! My Weaver PRR C1 really shows it!
O.K. where is the Go Fund Me page for this idea?
Oh yea, a go fund me page is a good idea, I don't think so!
Dave
What was the most recent cost of a complete ERR upgrade part(s)? Suppose a new company had to at least double the cost, how many of us would still be in for m ultiple upgrades? For example if the cost of the parts to upgrade a diesel were $325 how many would go for it? Or $425?
$325-$425 might be worth it for a nice steamer you had or good for a good price? For a diesel, at those prices, you can come awfully close to getting a brand new one. MTH for sure and close to some Legacy street prices. THe MTH RK scale diesel engines go for around $325 new and the Premier for around $400-$425 or so. But as we know, steamers are a different story on pricing, quite a bit higher for a new one.
I have to agree with RTR12, I have been looking at some MTH equipment from one of the companies that advertise on this form. Their prices are very close, below what the purchase price of engine and ERR or just a little over that price. Now if you have to factor in labor for the install then a new engine from MTH be it either RK or Premier might be the way to go. I understand that we have our favorites or that WOW engine we saw at York Event or be it another train fair, that this would be a great candidate for ERR conversation. I personally have four engines like that and thank goodness I purchased ERR equipment over a year ago for those conversions. I will get to those engines hopefully done by Christmas next year. The sad fact is there are a lot of great engines that could get a second life with the ERR equipment that might or might not happen. I hope it does not happen and a White Knight investor/3rd party could keep the ERR line going. OR Lionel comes up with universal upgrade for everything like ERR did for TMCC.
If sales fell off and even if there is a surge in purchase, and then it falls off again. You can ask John how many super chuffers he has sold? It might be years to get your money back, let alone make a profit. Some hesitate to fix a train because of shipping cost, but you would invest $200 in a new Cruise CDR, $150 in a new RS board, $100 Plus for the super chuffer and tach reader, and John said he would have to raise the price for another run? The full treatment at current ERR prices was $300 in parts. You easily could be $450 with a new company? You really need to like the engine to go that route. And your still just talking TMCC with directional headlight and couplers?
All the other fancy features like MARS, Ditch and Beacon, Markers are extra and extra boards. Nothing like Legacy or DCS engines. Unfortunately, I don't think this will happen. G
wb47 posted:What was the most recent cost of a complete ERR upgrade part(s)? Suppose a new company had to at least double the cost, how many of us would still be in for m ultiple upgrades? For example if the cost of the parts to upgrade a diesel were $325 how many would go for it? Or $425?
Well, duh! If they doubled the cost for the upgrades, clearly there'd be a lot less of them. 
I don't think this is much of a surprise! If it costs $325 just in parts to upgrade a diesel, I'll just buy a nice MTH diesel, a lot less work for me, and the same expenditure.
GGG posted:The full treatment at current ERR prices was $300 in parts. . G
It usually cost me to install ERR Cruise, sound and couplers around 200.00 in parts for an engine and I've converted or added ERR in 6 of my engines.
Were is the 300.00 in parts come from?
John, that is exactly my point, we have 6 pages of moaning here, but if you raised the price to make it profitable, we might have 12 pages and then a lot less sales for just the reason that you stated.
wb47 posted:John, that is exactly my point, we have 6 pages of moaning here, but if you raised the price to make it profitable, we might have 12 pages and then a lot less sales for just the reason that you stated.
I have some experience with the cost of producing such products, and I don't think a doubling of the price would be necessary or justified in order to make a decent profit. You can obviously raise the price of any product to the level that it will kill the sales, that isn't exactly news.
Howard Hitchcock, in his statement, made the following observations:
"The closing of the California office and retirement of Ken as well as rapidly diminishing sales are all material factors leading to this business decision."
"ERR has received nearly half a year’s worth of orders since the announcement."
Note the words "rapidly diminishing sales." I think that's the salient point in the whole announcement. Also note that sales didn't pick up until after the announcement was made. So when the smoke clears on all this, and those customers currently in the market have gotten all they need, what happens then? It's likely that the business situation for ERR products will return to the way things were before the announcement, that is, a diminishing sales situation.
As an aside, those diminishing sales numbers aren't going to be much of an inspiration to a company that might be in a position to take over ERR's business. It's unfortunate that Ken is retiring at this time; that may have been the straw that broke the camel's back. But a business with diminishing sales can't be supported forever.
So.....does raising prices support diminishing sales? Is that the cure? Obviously, it isn't, when a company's sales are already diminishing.
I planned to say no more on this subject, but here's another thought - doubtless already mentioned and buried in the many responses to threads - how about Lionel making available very basic Legacy kits with 3 available sound boards: generic steam, diesel, turbine (gas and steam turbine exhausts sound pretty much the same) from their website. Parts that they are themselves using and selling to other companies.
This is far from perfect, but it would still allow a numerous, hardcore, savvy and mostly well-moneyed bunch (guys like me) to still give Lionel some business. This does not, however, solve my broken-ERR (when that happens) existing conversions.
But, really, just offer the basic ERR TMCC on your website's parts area. Reduce the variety - fine - but you're making boards anyway...
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