Lionel Super 700E Project - MTH Smoke Unit Upgrade - Too Much Smoke!

Nice I like it

I have a Sunset/3rd Rail NYC Niagara with the same modification. Never could adjust it, so I finally had to shut it off. Haven used the smoke since, but then I don't allow any smoke on the home layout anyway. The darned Niagara sure did attract attention on our modular layout, however!

I had the upgrade done because the old puffer unit was pretty weak, plus the fan driven unit actually freed up space in the boiler for the Cruise Commander and Puff N' Chuff boards. However now it's at the opposite extreme of output and simply guzzles way too much fluid and breathable air...

 

Would love to hear any ideas, because I'd hate to shut it off due to working too well.

Mth locos have a "pot" adjustment located in the tender  to manually adjust the smoke output when running conventionally, obviously they can be adjusted via DCS as well.

 

I "assume" with yours being a modification, its wired in at the maximum voltage.

 

Maybe someone can chime in as to whether or not you can add an adjustment like and OEM one or find a way to reduce the voltage going to the unit.

 

 

It depends on which smoke unit was used for the upgrade.  If this is the PS/1 smoke unit, they will smoke a bunch running on track voltage.  It would be key to understand what smoke unit was used, and how it is powered.  Without extra circuitry, I don't know how they'd use the PS/2 smoke unit.

 

 

I like it! Looks like a real engine... i want all mine to do that :-)

You could change out the standard 16 ohm MTH resistors for 18 or 20 ohm units.

The original PS-1 smoke units run nicely at 10-14 volts, which would be the common range for conventional engines.

For command use wired directly to the track at 18-20 volts they would make amazing smoke as you show. I suspect that is how it is wired.

 

Rod

The only wiring diagram I have is the one provided by ERR (This project used the bottom one with hand-written note). The reed switch is also located on the trailing truck, not the tender as the diagram shows:

 

 

I'm guessing due to the simplicity of the wiring and the descriptions above Frank indeed adapted a PS-1 unit to the boiler. I was really hoping this wouldn't require taking the shell back off, since it took 3 tries to get everything back together without something shorting in the tight clearance and interrupting signal reception. Perhaps I'll learn to live with the heavy smoke....

The smoke output voltage from the R2LC is the track voltage half-wave rectified.  See the extensive thread in the forum on my discussion of this.

 

I've wired PS/1 smoke units to the R2LC output (same as what you have), and I get nice smoke, but not what you're getting.  I'm with Rod, I think it's wired to the 18 volts on the track.

 

 

 

I don't quite follow John. Was I supposed to do something differently than what the ERR diagram suggests? I also just checked out that thread you mentioned, and unfortunately most of it just flew right over my head.....

 

You also mentioned the tether. Remember, this locomotive has no tether, it's one of the first locomotives from Lionel to ever come with a wireless IR one. Not sure if that makes a difference in this scenario but just wanted to clear that up.

Nick;

Just for sport you could try reducing your track power to about 14 volts when you run this engine, just to see if that makes it more tolerable.

I don't think that will cause any detriment to engine operation.

Either that or a bigger ventilation fan.

 

Rod

The "tether" was a total mistake, it was supposed to say R2LC, I have NO idea why I typed that in there!  I'm going back to fix it after I post this.

 

First off, can you positively identify the smoke unit in question?  That would be significant in figuring out what you have.

 

This is a PS/1 Smoke Unit

 

 

This is a PS/2 Smoke Unit

 

Here's a project photo of the internals before reassembly. If wire color is any indicator, the unit came pre-wired with purple and gray on the element and green and grey on the fan (in the photo, the fan wires were substituted for the black and white harness ERR provided with the Puff N' Chuff board).

 

One thing's for sure, it does not have the huge circuit board as shown in the PS-1 photo. If I had to guess based on this picture, it actually looks like the PS-2 unit because it has that same design of the fan housing being integrated with the fluid chamber.

 

The wiring for the smoke unit from ERR is correct and follows what John is mentioning, so no need to dig deeper on that...

 

Make sure you set the "feature" code for smoke, that is in the instructions.  If still too heavy, then the resistor value in the smoke unit is too low.

john that looks like a mth ps2 smoke unit..bet frank inlargered the fan intake hole.....

if you want to tame it down..get a nylon washer..get one with the center hole is 1-2 size smaller then your fan intake hole ..then glue that washer down with alittle rtv...by doing that ,it will pull less air-less smoke out put....I do alot of smoke unit mods to make them really put out the smoke...its no fun for me to have little smoke out put..

When Frank informed me it was an MTH smoke unit he would be custom fitting to the boiler, I specifically asked him if that would cause an issue with TMCC electronics and he said he's never had a problem. The smoke unit itself was actually the costliest single item in the upgrade bill, $55, which is actually $10 more than the new can motor. Again, if that's any indication as to which smoke unit this is.

 

SantaFeFan, the ERR instructions said to program #4 for steam w/ smoke, but I figured since this was an unusual upgrade retaining the wireless tether I should keep the #74 programming. There's actually another code specifically for this locomotive, #740, but that code does not allow for the newer tender (2005 Century Club II PT tender with RS5). Which code do you suggest I stick with? Do you also agree with John that this may eventually blow the R2LC?

 

http://www.lionel.com/ForTheHo...oreTMCCfunctions.pdf

If he did not do anything about the two 16 ohm resistors in the MTH smoke unit, I can tell you for SURE that's too much current for that little triac without any heatsink.  The triac is rated at 4 amps, but that's with a pretty substantial heatsink! 

 

I'd suggest you start by measuring the resistance across the resistor leads with them disconnected from the locomotive wiring.  If you get, as I suspect, 8 ohms or close, take the smoke unit out and remove one of the 16 ohm resistors that are wired in parallel.  That should drop it down where the triac won't be working too hard, though I suspect it's still going to get pretty warm.  However, you'll cut the power in half, and of course you'll be getting a lot less heat to produce smoke.

 

Remember, MTH runs this thing at 6 volts in their locomotives, and they get pretty impressive smoke output.  Running it at 9-10 volts will indeed produce a **** of a lot of smoke!

I love it!   Can I put this in my Sunset PRR T1 ???   Along with eight chugs per revolution. I'll be setting off smoke detectors from here to Cincinnati  !! ! ! 

Spoke with Frank Timko today. He confirmed it was a PS2 unit he installed. When I asked about the possibility of it being too much current for the triac on the R2LC, he simply said he's never had a problem combining MTH units with Lionel electronics.

 

Verdict: I'll learn to live with the smoke and leave it off when not desired.

I'm at a loss as to how he comes to that conclusion, I did a test with one 16 ohm resistor in a smoke unit on the standard R2LC at 18 volts track voltage.  The triac gets pretty warm, I measured 48C with my spot IR temperature sensor after about 5 minutes running.  Paralleling two of them would be running that triac on the edge with no heatsink for sure.

 

Me and Frank will have to agree to disagree on this point.

 

I'm using a Lionel smoke unit for my tests, as I want to install it with that resistor for additional smoke output, however the resistor is wired directly across the smoke output, same as you apparently have with the PS/2 unit.  I'm going to add a heatsink to the triac for the single resistor, the two in parallel seem sure to be running way past safe limits.  It's sitting on my bench right now, and the measurement I mad was in free air, not closed up inside a locomotive.  I can't imagine that not taking the triac out if it's run that way for any length of time.

 

This locomotive has had about an hour of break-in and testing time for the heavily upgraded configuration. The Puff N' Chuff feature worked flawlessly for the duration of the testing, with the only downside being a smoke fluid guzzler. I also kept an eye on the heat produced around the model. The only part warm to the touch was the area of boiler above the smoke unit, which I figure is normal.

 

Frank has been doing this for a while and the people who post here about his work never seem to have an issue. Maybe he does somehow modify his units to be safe with the Lionel electronics and he's just not saying. In my conversations with him Frank was very soft-spoken and not all that talkative, so I wouldn't be surprised if he simply couldn't be bothered to go into detail about his units and figured telling me it's fine was enough.

Put me in the category of liking your locomotive too Nick - especially the smoke output!

If you wanted to tone it down, as was your original intention, you could replace the 16 ohm resistors with the Lionel 27 ohm resistors.  That would cut the smoke output down, but still probably be significantly more than a Lionel fan driven smoke unit, and probably similar to the standard MTH units.

 

He could use a modified PS-1 which would be 16 ohms.  Additionally since the output of the R2lC is a half sinewave at 9-12 V depending on what meter you use:-) I would think the 8 ohm is ok if he used a PS-2?  Obviously conventional would be higher.  If a PS-2 you could also pull one element and get it up to 16 ohms.  G