TIU software update

From the official Microsoft Support website:

Hi,

It is the responsibility of the manufacturer to provide drivers for their hardware.  I suggest you contact the manufacturer of the adaptor for the correct drivers.

Thanks for using the Answers Forum. Please let us know how this works out.

Joseph
Microsoft Answers Support Engineer

To cite a recent web search, "The FTDI FT232 chip is found in thousands of electronic baubles, from Arduinos to test equipment, and more than a few bits of consumer electronics. It’s a simple chip, converting USB to a serial port, but very useful and probably one of the most cloned pieces of silicon on Earth."

So why wouldn't Microsoft want to include a driver within its operating system for this popular type of device.

Still doesn't explain why my new out of the box (and never connected to the internet) computer worked perfectly when connected to the TIU.

H1000

RJR posted:

Ed, are you saying that this chip would be in a serial>USB adapter cable, so that the driver that comes with such a cable satisifes the above-argued need for a driver?

Yes, I am saying the driver MIGHT already be there from a USB to serial adapter cable.... I prefer "above-discussed"

H1000 posted:

.....

"So why wouldn't Microsoft want to include a driver within its operating system for this popular type of device."

I cant speak for Microsoft....but as I said, MTH is the party responsible for providing the driver (or access to it).... I guess you could say they did, in a news flash.

"Still doesn't explain why my new out of the box (and never connected to the internet) computer worked perfectly when connected to the TIU."

I suppose it is possible that your "new out of the box computer" has the  same FTDI chipset on the motherboard, so the installed version of Win 7 already includes the driver....not a statement of fact, but it's possible!

Ed

eddie,

As Ray explains in his reply,  the USB hardware chip in the MTH TIU is also used in many other USB-connected items and that the needed driver was provided on an install disk with a previously installed item without them even knowing it.

Extremely unlikely in my case, since I have arguably the most plain-vanilla, under-utilized PC on the planet.

Absent some hard numbers, "suspecting a majority of others not needing this update" is IMHO, a stretch. 

As I recall, I have yet to see a forum post where anyone had a similar problem to Ray's and had to find this driver to correct it. While I don't read every post on the OGR forums, I do make it a habit to read every post on this DCS forum.

As I think about it, some of the people who may have used a USB to Serial port adapter in the past, may have had the needed FTDI driver installed from a disk supplied with the USB to Serial adapter!  Perhaps that's why you already had it!

While I cannot rule that out entirely, I can tell you that I personally haven't ever had to locate and load a driver for a USB to Serial cable on my current PC laptop (Toshiba Satellite), which I purchased several years ago. It came with Windows 7 Home Edition pre-loaded and the very first time I updated a Rev. L, it just did it. It may have loaded a driver, however, if it did so, it did so automatically and found any necessary software all by itself.

Further, the earliest date on the oldest component of this driver is October 22, 2014. I was updating Rev. L TIUs via the USB ports well before then and the Rev; L has been around since, I believe, December 2012. MTH's advisory is dated March 15, 2015.

Barry,

I also had the problem as did a few friends who called me, hoping for some friendly guidance instead of posting on the forum.

As I said to H1000, I suppose it is possible that your "new out of the box computer" (or your laptop) has the  same FTDI chipset on the motherboard, so the installed version of Win 7 already includes the driver....not a statement of fact, but it's possible!

Ed

New test(s):

Fired up the VMWARE with an old copy of Windows XP SP1 (fresh install) - no way the FTDI chipset can exist on this system - Driver not included with the default install but I was able to install it via Microsoft Update when asked to search for a driver.

Fired up another VMWARE system with a copy of VISTA SP2 (again fresh install) TIU connected right away without driver download and verified communication to the TIU by backing up data from my DCS remote.

Now, these are VMWARE systems but the hardware is connected directly to the operating system (which is why I used VMWARE and not Microsoft Virtual machine). Identical hardware configured in the VMWARE construction for both OS's.

I can test more Operating systems if you want (4 versions of Windows 95 through Windows 10) within this environment all fresh installs with any service pack revision requested. Windows 3.0 and 3.11 will take longer to setup. 

Yes, I am saying the driver MIGHT already be there from a USB to serial adapter cable

Thanks, Eddiem.  I don't want to get involved in this "discussion", but just for general info wanted to know if this chip would be in the cable.  In fact, I've never used the USB port on my Rev L---When I update my TI\Us, I just line them up and use the adapter cable.

H1000,

I have no knowledge of VMware, but testing on it doesn't sound like it is the same thing as testing on a real, out of the box, brand new Dell, Toshiba, or HP PC... but if you're having fun... enjoy! Maybe VMware has an FTDI driver built in?  No idea...

My discussion is based on my real HP Windows 7 PC.

Ed

As indicated by test #1 the driver is not included with Windows XP Service Pack 1 or VMWARE. It had to be downloaded (easily) from Microsoft Update when the TIU was connected.

In test #2 it was included with the operating system (Vista Service Pack 2) with the same hardware setup as test #1.

I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion of how VMWARE works but I can pick and choose hardware parameters as I wish. This allowed me to essentially test the operating system and leave out the variable of different computer brands and models. By using fresh installed Operating Systems that were never connected to the internet, I know the driver wasn't installed by an automatic update or previously attached hardware.

My point is, the driver is included with most modern operating systems (suspect anything 2010 or newer for sure) and should work any computer (in good working order) with these operating systems.

What H1000 said!

"VMware....leaves out the variable of different computer brands and models"  Thank you.  So it is possible that some manufacturers of different brands and models could include the driver in their OS image so that a part on their motherboard (which is not in a hardware-free VM install) would work out of the box.  You confirm my point!

"My point is, the driver is included with most modern operating systems (suspect anything 2010 or newer for sure) and should work any computer (in good working order) with these operating systems."

Regardless of how many times you say "it should be there", my PC (HP with Win7) and Rays' PC (Win7) did not have it... Barry's might have had it installed by Toshiba "at birth", or it might have been installed with another item.  Others might have had it installed when they added a USB to Serial adapter, many of which use the same driver.

Bottom line:

1) MTH, not Microsoft is responsible for providing the driver or a link to it.  They did so in a "news flash"

2) Some PC users may have had the FTDI driver installed by the PC maker, it was installed with another item, or perhaps with a USB to Serial adapter.  Regardless of comments to the contrary, that absolutely IS the case for many.

3) VMware testing is not the same as specific hardware for testing.

Stay warm (in the northeast (It's OK, we had great weather for the Big E show!)), and enjoy your trains!

Ed

Well Ed, your points are correct also.

1) MTH did their job by issuing a news flash after discovering an issue.

2) PC manufactures may or may not have installed the driver by default or could have removed it on purpose (not sure why they want to do that but they have their reasons).

3) This type of testing is different. It is impossible for MTH to test all specific makes and models of PC hardware with the TIU (Way too much hardware out there). I would assume they tested similar to my method to ensure Microsoft included the needed driver with the OS and left out the possible wildcards that the PC manufactures throw into the mix. I simply wanted to test the OS against the TIU with minimal interference from the hardware (again due to the massive numbers of makes and models of computers).

You also keep warm!
Best wishes and Happy Railroading!
H1000

My computer crashed a few years ago, purchased a new HP with Windows 8.  Never had to search and load a driver.  Downloaded MTH Dealer loader, plugged in the USB to TIU and went right back to work loading Sound Files.  So what ever was needed occurred transparent to any overt action on my part.  G

Hi RAYL,

Thanks for creating that really interesting tread, and thanks also to everyone who have shared their knowledge and experience on the subject.  Really interesting !

It would be good to know if you have successfully installed what was missing, use or not the driver from the MTH site (News Flash), and successfully update your DCS devices to DCS 5.0

Thanks again,

Daniel

Daniel Auger posted:

Hi RAYL,

Thanks for creating that really interesting tread, and thanks also to everyone who have shared their knowledge and experience on the subject.  Really interesting !

It would be good to know if you have successfully installed what was missing, use or not the driver from the MTH site (News Flash), and successfully update your DCS devices to DCS 5.0

Thanks again,

Daniel

 

 

Daniel;

About a half hour after I posted the problem of Windows not finding the drivers (ftdibus.sys, ftser2k.sys) needed for a Rev. L TIU, I found the drivers by searching the web. I downloaded and installed them and had my TIU upgraded to 5.0 quickly. At that point, I decided to visit the MTH website, where I located the reference to these same drivers I had previously located elsewhere. I uninstalled the previous drivers and downloaded and installed those pointed to by MTH.

They were a slightly newer version.

After that I scoured the web looking for info on these drivers and came upon the same kind of info that "eddiem" reported on in one of his many posts on this thread.

As you know, this issue (for me at least) is only relevant with respect to upgrading a Rev. L TIU using the USB cable with the type A to type B connectors. i.e. I'm not interested in any other rev. TIU or any other connection method for the PC to TIU connection.

With regard to my above mentioned interest, I'd love to see a list of those who didn't need drivers vs. those who did need drivers.

For each category, I'd list these kind of specifications:

Manufacturer of PC

Processor

Windows version

Windows install an OEM build or Microsoft retail build

I don't think anyone involved in this discussion would deny the drivers are needed!

There appear to be 2 points:

1. The drivers were on the PC already and it may not be so clear how they got there!

2. The drivers were NOT on the PC and had to be acquired from somewhere!

Point 2 is further divided into 2 sub-points a. & b.

a. The drivers were acquired through an explicit download from some site (as was my case).

b. The drivers were acquired through an IMPLICIT download from Microsoft via their Update service!

The only part I would question is the contention, by some, that the drivers were acquired via Microsoft Update service as would happen when you make an explicit request for a driver update OR through the normal scheduled Update process that we can configure within Windows.

I have tried the explicit request through a right mouse click on the device icon in Device Manager many times and it always failed to find the drivers on the Microsoft Update server.

As you're probably aware, the update process has changed, almost with each release of Windows.

In some of the earlier release prior to 7 & 8, the update process would try, at least 4 sources:

1. Local drives

2. Any network connected drives

3. A specifically requested source such as a floppy, or CDROM

4. Microsoft Update servers

It was not always clear (or at least noticed by the operator) which of the sources was the one to provide the requested driver in the case where the search was successful.

Having said all this (which is probably far more than you bargained for), my real interest is in having clear and accurate information.

I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of 'magic' as regards how things happen in the technical realm.

One final point:

Here is my take on the issue of where the drivers came from; i.e. how they came to be resident on your hard drive.

1. they were part of a Microsoft build of the OS (not likely)

2. they were part of a Microsoft OEM build of the OS (more likely)

3. they were installed as part of the process of introducing new hardware which requires a driver install and when the drivers are not found in their normal location (Windows/system32/drivers), the Windows hardware install process will ask the operator for assistance on where to locate the required drivers.

4. they are the same drivers needed by some other hardware being installed and then later, when a different piece of hardware is installed, the drivers are already present in their home.

Number 3 is my case and I had to first go get the drivers somewhere and THEN repeat the process of new hardware introduction to the PC.

I find it very unlikely that a non-OEM version of Windows (that's one that Microsoft built) had these drivers as part of the build.

However, it may have happened that way because Microsoft has written some drivers for the USB ports to be able to deal with serial data!

I believe this is my longest post, EVER!

Sorry

GGG posted:

My computer crashed a few years ago, purchased a new HP with Windows 8.  Never had to search and load a driver.  Downloaded MTH Dealer loader, plugged in the USB to TIU and went right back to work loading Sound Files.  So what ever was needed occurred transparent to any overt action on my part.  G

G;

It would be interesting to know what would have happened if you plugged in the USB cable to your TIU BEFORE downloading the dealer loader?

I'm beginning to get the impression that some manufacturers with some of their Windows distributions provide these drivers as part of their build (for some unknown reason, at least it's unknown to me).

I'm using an HP Pavilion dv7-6c64nr laptop with Windows 7 which I installed from the recovery partition on the hard drive. That partition is supposed to contain exactly what was on the factory installed partition but I'm now wondering if that is true -- I'll never know for sure.

Ray

Ray,

It would be interesting to know what would have happened if you plugged in the USB cable to your TIU BEFORE downloading the dealer loader?

How could that make any difference?

Barry;

I don't know if it would or not -- just wondering.

I have a question for you, Barry.

Are you still of the opinion that I had to download the drivers because I didn't keep my PC up to date with the latest software updates from the Microsoft Update Service?

Ray

I can't answer your question.  I know on my XP I did have to down load the extra file for Rev L.  For my current program I did not, but it is an all in one and only has USB ports, and lots of them.  So maybe that type of soft ware was installed by OEM since serial port not on this.

I also know my computer works with the USB to serial adapter cable which I needed to upgrade non Rev L TIUs.

I have been a little leery switching to Window's 10 because I can't afford any glitches at this point in the train repair season.  G