TMCC vs Legacy - how does it feel to go from Legacy back to TMCC?

You may be in minority here as someone who started with Legacy. Most here started with something before Legacy came along, in fact before any type of command control even existed. Some want the best available and gradually sold off their older trains but for many, earlier command control systems or even conventional is good enough.

I too am OK with good chuff and whistle so TMCC is fine with me. If an engine comes along that has never been made before that would be reason to consider it, not the fact it has Legacy control.

Pete

I have a lot of stuff that runs both Legacy and TMCC.  I'd be lying if I said that I prefer most Legacy engine sounds over the TMCC ones, but that doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the TMCC models.  I also do a lot of upgrades to TMCC and PS/3, I like them all!

If there were a locomotive with TMCC and the same model with Legacy, I'd probably go for the Legacy unless the price difference was truly prohibitive.

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

As time has gone on, I have gotten a better understanding of what I want and use in my models. For one, I've discovered that I have never bothered with any of the extra sounds and nice features (eg, depleting coal, refilling water, etc.). I also don't really use the crewtalk features. Sound is important to me, but the only sounds I really care about are the steam chuffing (including 4 chuffs per revolution), whistle, and to a lesser extent the bell. I also like slow starting and running too. I've also discovered that for some Lionel models, the tooling hasn't changed between TMCC and Legacy versions, just the electronics and feature set. Thus my attention turns to the TMCC version.

As you observed, you can upgrade to 4-chuffs in several ways, and also older TMCC can be upgraded to fan driven smoke, and further to properly chuffing smoke and smoke at idle.  With a few enhancements, you can create a poor man's Legacy model from that TMCC locomotive.

I have the scale PRR T1 Duplex that is getting that treatment.  It's never been made in Legacy, so I got the TMCC version.  I'll add the ERR Cruise Commander M, Chuff-Generator, and the Super-Chuffer.  I am also going to replace the existing Railsounds in the tender with all the RailSounds 6 stuff from the Legacy LionMaster T1 Duplex for better sounds.  It won't be a Legacy model, but it'll run like one and sound like one, close enough!

I have many TMCC engines, all upgraded with cruise and 4 chuffs/rev.  I have no plans to replace them with Legacy.

A couple of recommendations.

-You mentioned John's chuff generator. That in my opinion is the best way to get 4 chuffs.  Wheel magnets on the tender don't match driver rotation, and they skip chuffs too often.

-If you upgrade with ERR, keep on mind the whistle and bell are not adjustable using the handheld.  Worse, you have to take off the shell to get to the board to adjust the volume of those two sounds.  On a brass engine, make sure you get the sound level right before putting it back together.

I will say that my Legacy engines are better runners, especially at low speed which is how I run.  But for the money TMCC is a great deal.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I am also going to replace the existing Railsounds in the tender with all the RailSounds 6 stuff from the Legacy LionMaster T1 Duplex for better sounds.

John, how will you do that?  I thought RailSounds 6 needed a Legacy serial signal in order to work. 

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have a lot of stuff that runs both Legacy and TMCC.  I'd be lying if I said that I prefer most Legacy engine sounds over the TMCC ones, but that doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the TMCC models.  I also do a lot of upgrades to TMCC and PS/3, I like them all!

@CAPPilot posted:

I have many TMCC engines, all upgraded with cruise and 4 chuffs/rev.  I have no plans to replace them with Legacy.

I will say that my Legacy engines are better runners, especially at low speed which is how I run.  But for the money TMCC is a great deal.

All of that (and the rest of each of your replies) is reassuring. I am under the impression that the Odysey I speed controllers weren't perfect and depending on the engine may need an ERR upgrade to reach the level of slow speed control I am hoping for.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have the scale PRR T1 Duplex that is getting that treatment.  It's never been made in Legacy, so I got the TMCC version.  I'll add the ERR Cruise Commander M, Chuff-Generator, and the Super-Chuffer.  I am also going to replace the existing Railsounds in the tender with all the RailSounds 6 stuff from the Legacy LionMaster T1 Duplex for better sounds.  It won't be a Legacy model, but it'll run like one and sound like one, close enough!

I was thinking about doing something similar to what you mentioned (closer to this OGR thread from a few years ago) - put in ERR for better speed control but keep the original RS. Let us know how it goes! I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a TMCC N&W Class A and then installing one of the RS boards from the new 2-8-8-2's or the Lionmaster Class A!

I run Legacy and TMCC engines.  I am more than happy with my TMCC engines and feel the extra expenditures for the Legacy engines is, to me, not worth the extras and the Legacy control system.  Don't be afraid to step into TMCC engines.  They have features that make running them an enjoyable experience.

Ron

Legacy doesn’t spoil me over TMCC.  All my TMCC engines are upgraded with some kind of cruise and railsounds 5.0 boards.  So the differences are not so pronounced.  Legacy does spoil me over DCS.  The few remaining DCS engines I own will get converted to legacy

I have Tmcc, Legacy L, and Legacy. I prefer the Legacy L as it's to me just a souped-up tmcc. I've always had a problem programing the legacy system for some reason. I could get it to take one engine but not another. I know it's definitely something I'm doing wrong lol.

Being a nominal Luddite, I am more than happy with TMCC and buy Legacy equipment only if that's what the factory installed.  I have a CAB/Base 1L and quite honestly couldn't tell you what the difference is between that and my original TMCC stuff, other than the lack of a whip antenna.  As long as the basics work, I'm a happy camper with no reason to invest in an elaborate Legacy base, etc, with features I don't want or need.  I leave all the rocket science to gunrunnerjohn, bless his heart, and reach out to him for advice when stumped.

I think some of the best engines that Lionel has made were between 2000 and 2006.  I find many of the TMCC versions have better sounds (chuff, whistle or horn and bell).  As an example, I owned their SF 4-8-4 cab 3751 with TMCC and when the Legacy version was offered, I purchased it with plans to sell the older model.  After hearing the newer sounds, I wound up selling the Legacy version and having the TMCC upgraded to 4 chuffs.  I have four or five Legacy engine and all their whistle sound the same.  That was hardly ever the case on the TMCC versions.  I do not use smoke due to breathing issues, so that does not interest me.  And, contrary to most here, I really, really like the engine specific announcements on the TMCC versions.

Also \, the earlier diesels had some very nice throaty sounds.  They may not have been accurate, but they sure sounded great!  Sounds are very important to me and I have a stable of 6 or 8 Legacy diesels that I just do not run due to their obnoxious prime mover sounds.

However, cruise control is a must.

Good luck with your decision,

Don

I model the steam era. Double heading  power is important on the road I model. Legacy steamers let me do this as they are pretty much all compatible speed wise through the different models. Odyssey was all over the place from one model to the next. While I like the simplicity of TMCC as far as controlling trains.  I prefer the new Legacy models to run.

@Bob posted:

John, how will you do that?  I thought RailSounds 6 needed a Legacy serial signal in order to work. 

Well, I thought so too.  However, I have the Lionmaster T1 Duplex and it's tender runs perfectly interfaced to my TMCC test-set with the IR link and an R2LC with TMCC. The only difference is the serial data across the IR link is reverse polarity, once I flipped the polarity, it works like a champ.

I also have one of the Legacy back-EMF cruise boards if it ends up being an issue, so I can just use that and the Legacy R4LC for the locomotive.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, I thought so too.  However, I have the Lionmaster T1 Duplex and it's tender runs perfectly interfaced to my TMCC test-set with the IR link and an R2LC with TMCC. The only difference is the serial data across the IR link is reverse polarity, once I flipped the polarity, it works like a champ.

I also have one of the Legacy back-EMF cruise boards if it ends up being an issue, so I can just use that and the Legacy R4LC for the locomotive.

Interesting. Neither of those methods work with the RS6 board from the Vision Hudson.

Pete

O-Gauge CJ: I can appreciate everything you said and also wholeheartedly agree with DGJONES' comments.  The only thing I would add to the latter's remarks is - if you can, whenever buying a TMCC model if possible get one which is equipped with Odyssey (ie. Cruise Control).  I say 'try' because Odyssey was only developed by Lionel part way after TMCC began, and although I realize there are 'after market' products available to achieve this, generally speaking I'm the type that's partial to 'factory installed' systems (which also saves you money) rather than paying for upgrades later.

Good Luck!

Bob, I just fired up my test set and I have one correction.  I had to use a Legacy R4LC-S03 and program it in TMCC mode to get full function.  The R2LC worked for a spell (several minutes, which apparently fooled me), and then stopped working.  However, the R4LC programmed in TMCC mode (AUX1/4) works perfectly with the CC-M and drives the tender without an issue with no oddities.  Here's a short video of the testing with a TMCC CAB1L/BASE1L driving it and using the R4LC-S03 programmed in TMCC mode.

Thats one combination I have not tried, programming the R4LC in TMCC mode. Who’d have thunk it. May cost me 200 speed steps but worth it for RS6 5344 audio if it works.

Pete

Wish I knew this before I gave John a 6.0 daylight board I tried using in a TMCC Niagara.

Note that the odd chuffing cadence is because I'm pushing a button on the test-set for each chuff, it's not a problem with recognizing the chuffs.

I did have a momentary sense of panic, the chuffs gradually faded in volume at first.  Then I realized the sound board wasn't seeing any movement as I didn't crack the throttle, so it was "coasting".  Once I cracked the throttle and started the motor, the chuffs returned to normal volume.

@Norton posted:

Thats one combination I have not tried, programming the R4LC in TMCC mode. Who’d have thunk it. May cost me 200 speed steps but worth it for RS6 5344 audio if it works.

Not sure what you mean with 200 speed steps, what motor driver are you using that is giving you 200 speed steps?  I figure to use the standard CC-M and have 100 speed steps, sufficient for me.

I am using a Legacy R4LC with the rare Legacy DCDE available for a few months, now NLA. The only reason I went with Legacy here was to be able to drive the Vision 700E RS6 board. This before you could buy RCMCs outright. So far no luck having tried all versions of R4LCs and building an interface to invert serial data to the IR transmitter. Ironic if all I needed to do is put in a TMCC feature code.

Pete