Toggle switches and LED's for control panel

Not sure why you'd be needing so much voltage input. These toggle switches available on the big A have an integral LED light to show when the siding is powered on and are rated at only 12 volts. I used a diode to reduce the voltage (18 volts from track) going to each LED light so they don't burn out, (they are just visible in the second picture) and just connected the switches to the sidings.

I have found that same supplier of the 120VAC LED's also offers those same LED's that will run on 24V AC or DC.  I would think that the 18VAC that will be running in my track for DCS/Legacy would probably power those LED's.  I can then just use SPST switches.

I really want to have separate LED indicators from the switches.  I think the separate indicators are easy to see from further away and at various angles.

Since LED's use direct current, there is some circuity in these LED's that is rectifying the AC.  Would that circuitry possibly interfere with DCS?

@VinceL posted:

Given I will be running DCS and Legacy, will running the center rail power through one pole of the toggle switch and 120VAC to the LED's on the other pole lead to any interference of the DCS signal (not worried about Legacy since it uses the ground)?

Vince,

There shouldn't be a DCS issue but there would be a hazard to people.

Mixing switched line voltage and low voltage within the same vicinity, without adequate physical separation or a barrier, is not a good idea.  An accidental short circuit between adjacent terminals in your switch wiring would place a potentially lethal line voltage (120 VAC) on the track.

There's no doubt that you'd not plan on doing that intentionally, but unintentional things do occasionally happen.

Mike

I would opt for something like Richie posted with a 12v lighted toggle. Then run the track voltage through a 12v automotive relay. You can use the Bosch lookalikes that have a mounting tab. Not sure how you are wired for DCS. But if your using a terminal strip. The relays can be spliced easily into your track feeder. Eliminating long wire runs from the terminal strip to the toggle. Then back to the siding. The downside is you need a 12v DC power supply. Not a bad thing to have as it can see plenty of use on other things.

I have toggles for a dozen seperate tracks and run DCS and TMCC with no problem.  I switch the center rail at the panel.  Layout is 30 x 20.  I'm going to add a watchdog signal generator as described in other threads so that when I power up a track the DCS locomotives stay silent.  That's the only disadvantage right now, I have to power down one side of the Z4000 to turn on a track connected to that side.

Ran all my blocks using 12volt relays and 12volt LED's. No DCS problems.

Don’t use those 120 Volt LEDs!

You cannot legally or safely run 120 volts AC anywhere unless it meets electrical code requirements. That means conduit, junction boxes, and enclosed switches, not open contact toggles. That would be one heckuva mess in a control panel, and very dangerous.

If you are using DCS and Legacy, I question why you want to build a control panel in the first place. The whole point of command control is to do away with all that and place control of the layout in your hands. You can use an MTH AIU to turn the track power on and off. If you want a light to indicate whether a track is powered, make it a dwarf signal next to the track, not a light in a control panel.

@Rich Melvin posted:

If you are using DCS and Legacy, I question why you want to build a control panel in the first place. The whole point of command control is to do away with all that and place control of the layout in your hands.

My layout controls.  Controls all the power, switches, turntable, and accessory lighting...

Oh, and it runs trains as well.

I switch the tracks in my engine service facility so they aren't all drawing current and running up time while not being used.  Am I missing something?

@Dougklink posted:

I switch the tracks in my engine service facility so they aren't all drawing current and running up time while not being used.  Am I missing something?

I switch all the tracks on my turntable, I use the CAB1L or CAB2.  They're all controlled using Lionel SC2 switch/accessory controllers.

Also just a word of advice to those wiring up panels.  It's cleaner and better for the wires if you run them to the hinge line and then bundle them along that line and then come off to the other controls or layout.  Wires do better twisting than bending.  I don't have a photo so I hope my words conveyed the idea ok.

For DCS, the various wire runs to the isolated track blocks should be relatively the same length, especially the hot and common pairs, ie star wiring concept. If you run the hot wire to the control panel, to the toggle switch and back, the hot wire is going to be a lot longer than the common generally. This could affect DCS signal quality. If you place a relay next to the track block and use the control panel switch to activate the relay, the the wire lengths will not be affected. This is how I wired my layout. DCS signal is unaffected.

I took the same approach at @LT1Poncho. The relays for each power block are in-line and part of the "star" wiring scheme recommended for implementation of DCS.

BTW....the ONLY 120VAC on the layout is the power strip that feeds the transformers. There is absolutely no 120VAC under the table.

I too do not have issues with DCS signals because of this wiring scheme. My DCS signal issues occur because of track joints loosening over time. But that's a topic that's been covered "ad infinitum" else where.

Just to confirm, I have no DCS or Legacy issues using the toggle switches posted earlier.

Y'all are right.  No 120 volts connected to anything other than transformers.

In my very first layout (1980's), I was using 7 watt nightlight bulbs inside Plasticville buildings.  And, of course they were 120 volt bulbs.  Somehow, I did mess up the wiring and accidentally got 120 volts on the track.   Quite the buzzing sound.

This was in the days before DCS and TMCC so there were only conventional engines on the track.  They all survived with no damage.    I don't think the outcome would be very good with today's command control equipment.

@Rich Melvin posted:

Don’t use those 120 Volt LEDs!

You cannot legally or safely run 120 volts AC anywhere unless it meets electrical code requirements. That means conduit, junction boxes, and enclosed switches, not open contact toggles. That would be one heckuva mess in a control panel, and very dangerous.

If you are using DCS and Legacy, I question why you want to build a control panel in the first place. The whole point of command control is to do away with all that and place control of the layout in your hands. You can use an MTH AIU to turn the track power on and off. If you want a light to indicate whether a track is powered, make it a dwarf signal next to the track, not a light in a control panel.

YES,YES,and YES NO 120V on the table top.NEINE"  NADA, NYET N E V E R

@Rich Melvin  and all,   Rich, you ask a really good question regarding control panels in light of command and control options. I had the same thought, a couple of weeks ago, as I was building a small yard switch panel using "Touch Toggles". Why am I doing this when I could just use the AIU?  I run DCS, own an AIU (never installed) and use the app to run my engines. I am more of a "runner" than "operator". 

So why a control panel? I want to see a graphic representation of my layout. I want to see where the turnouts are and point position from a central location.  I have DZ switch motors but with the layout illuminated I cannot see the green/red LED indicators, they look great in night operations as long as they are not blocked by scenery, buildings or varying track heights. I have Z stuff signals, but if at the "wrong" angle cannot see those LEDs either.  Unless I am completely misunderstanding the app, I would have to remember where SW1, SW2 and so on are on the layout and which sequence of points need to be thrown to get to the desired locations. With a graphical representation, I only have to remember where I want to go, and touch the appropriate turnouts.  I suppose at some point the interfaces (GIU) will be able to create a graphical representation on our screens. When that happens I am all in. But still I do not carry my phone around with me and set my pad aside on the layout even when running DCS. I would rather have a beverage in my hand than a controller.

Perhaps its the difference in how we participate in hobbies and sports. Do we like being on the field to see the action close up or do we prefer to view the whole field and be high up to take in the big picture. I prefer the latter, which to me is probably why I want to see the whole representation of my layout as in a panel.

Curious as to what others think on this issue.

(Maybe this could be / should be its own discussion thread?)

@ScoutingDad posted:

Curious as to what others think on this issue.

Excellent question @ScoutingDad.  Unlike handheld control of trains where I prefer this, in spite of potential hassles with cryptic button sequences, largely because I don't need to take my eyes off the moving equipment (throttle adjustments are relatively frequent and close together):

For control of routes I prefer this, or its old-fashioned hands-on equivalent -- there are no cryptic button sequences to memorize, and equipment movements (route adjustments) are relatively few and far between, so I can safely look away from the moving equipment for a short period of time:

Odd?  Maybe.

Does it work?  Yes, for me.

Mike

@ScoutingDad....

I do have a large control panel that has a graphic of the layout and it is a central point of control for all the turnouts.

In addition, the control panel has volt and amp meters for each power source along with circuit breakers for each power source.

Shortly after getting the layout up and running, I've discovered that I spend a lot less time behind the control panel that I thought I would. I actually found I prefer to walk around the layout with my DCS Remote running trains. I was totally surprised by this! In my mind's eye, I saw myself running everything from a central point. But this not the case.

When I want to change a train's route or switch coal cars into my rotary coal dump, I need to run back to the control panel to set turnouts, route the train and operate the rotary coal dump from the control panel.

Because of my wandering around the layout, I am seriously considering building "satellite" control panels (or mini panels) at a few locations close to where there are a large number of switches. This may sound weird, but I find myself feeling more involved in operating the trains at these points than being 10 feet away from those areas of the layout.

Don't get me wrong; I'm glad I built and have the main control panel. And you do need a place where circuit breakers (and in my case volt and amp meters) are centrally located. But if I ever build another layout or rebuild this one, I would probably opt for "satellite" or mini control panels and relegate circuit breakers and volt and amp meters to a much smaller central panel.

I do have to mention; when I have visitors seeing the layout for the first time they always marvel at the control panel. The mini toggle switches and colored LEDs for the turnout and power blocks do look slick.

BTW, I installed volt and amp meters because I use 4 PW ZW transformers. If I ever replace those with Powerhouse 180 power supplies; there would probably be no need for volt meters. Not sure about nixing the amp meters though.

Hope this helps.

The control panel that I referred to in my initial post is only a small panel with a bunch of toggle switches and LED's for switching power on sidings and in my yard.  I have all Fastrack Command switches.  They are connected to their controllers which are positioned around the layout near their physical location.  I can switch them using a CAB1L or CAB2 or use the controller.

I do want to create an LCS map of my layout.  That will have to wait until after I get the layout designed in SCARM and then get the track in place and wired to LCS.  I have enough STM2's for my existing switches.  For the new layout I need more switches and STM2's.

Today I received 10 panel mount 24VAC green LED's.  They start to illuminate at around 5 VAC.  They are nice and bright at 18VAC.  That's one issue I can put to bed.

@Mellow Hudson Mike  Mike thanks for the post. I had no idea the LCS even existed. Of course the Lionel site has dead links, but Trainworld had a video available. Now to do a little more investigation as to whether it will interface with DCS. @Junior  this might solve the issue of building sub panels if you want to walk around the layout. The Trainworld video explains a pretty slick control method. 

I bet the difference between the 120Vac and 24 V LED indicators is the size of the resistor in parallel.

And I still stand by my claim the way you protect LEDs from reverse voltage when running from AC is connect them in the other polarity. I remember taking a DC power supply to one and was able to show that half lit up one way, the other half connected the other way, might have been LED indicators from AutomationDirect, used to be called PLCDirect.

@ScoutingDad posted:

@Mellow Hudson Mike  Mike thanks for the post. I had no idea the LCS even existed. Of course the Lionel site has dead links, but Trainworld had a video available. Now to do a little more investigation as to whether it will interface with DCS. @Junior  this might solve the issue of building sub panels if you want to walk around the layout. The Trainworld video explains a pretty slick control method.

Thanks @ScoutingDad.....I'll check it out!