UP 4014 Restoration/844 Trip

Taking the Big Boy for a Spin, Ed Dickens keynote speaker.

Published on You Tube, August 11, 2016  /  Play time: One minute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...ature=em-uploademail

Gary

Very cool!!

Best of luck, UP Steam Shop!

If I wasn't so old and fat and broken ..... I'd wish I could be an entry-level guy in that shop, working on 4014.

Exciting stuff! After listening to the presentation on the rebuild of the 844, I'm confident that the day will come when we all get to experience 4014 once again. Thanks to UP and its employees for keeping steam alive in Cheyenne! 

I must say it is really something to see a 4000 on the TT in Cheyenne again.

I've grabbed my popcorn and I'm just waiting for the entertainment to start. Anything with the UP steam program, you just know the thread will get locked eventually!

But now that 844 has actually run and can steam now, I truly believe this project is going to get moving, and moving fast. What was a "never will happen" thing we all used to dream about in bull sessions is actually looking like we can really, truly, see a 4000 under steam again.

I never thought I'd see the day where I could type/write that and not have it be a joke.

great video  - exciting news

OOOO  Boy let the hype begin!!!

  I got popcorn.   Didn't 4014 have the most flue time left before retirement?

Yawn...

Getting the UPP 4014 to fire correctly with OIL is going to be the trick!

I suspect the 4014 will be operating for a big publicity stunt in 2019.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Getting the UPP 4014 to fire correctly with OIL is going to be the trick!

When I talked to them before 4014 left Los Angeles, they said they didn't see much of a problem. The Challenger was originally coal-fired and burns oil now. Don't recall if 844 originally ran on coal.

Thanks for posting.

No much info, but really cool all the same.  I would say that maybe the 844 success would quite some of the naysayers, but I am sure it won't. 

Thank you Union Pacific for your renewed dedication to steam operations and restoration. .Congratulations to the UP steam crew on a job well done on the 844 and looking forward to witnessing your next success with 4014.

jhz563 posted:

I would say that maybe the 844 success would quite some of the naysayers, but I am sure it won't. 

Ya think?

OGR Webmaster posted:

Yawn...

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Getting the UPP 4014 to fire correctly with OIL is going to be the trick!

Hot Water has already stated many times, (correct me if I'm wrong) that firing with Oil should not be an issue.

Enjoy the moment !! 

Looks like a plane ticket to Cheyenne is in order... Will be a great event.

Yes, they will have it running in a while, just like they did 844............I hope this thread won't get cut/butchered like the others, but we got more judges than jury on this forum!........I'd say that the Union Pacific has very deep pockets, and can throw man power, and dollars for parts at it, where other railroads can not or will not, everything viewed as an  "ROI".......Not one company has more money than the other, it's difference in business philosophy....I would have been tickled to death, to see the "765" run through the Ashland-Huntington-Ironton Tristate area this year, but NS says "NO", and it is their railroad....  

At least the NS has a steam program... the CSX needs to take note!

It's "kinda" like rebuilding 844 twice.....maybe Ed can pull it off.

AGHRMatt posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Getting the UPP 4014 to fire correctly with OIL is going to be the trick!

When I talked to them before 4014 left Los Angeles, they said they didn't see much of a problem. The Challenger was originally coal-fired and burns oil now. Don't recall if 844 originally ran on coal.

All of the UP 4-8-4's were built as coal burners, but by the end of the 1940's they had been converted to oil firing.

Stuart

I enjoy reading the news and the dialogue on this Forum about the Big Boy restoration. I think, for the most part, it is a healthy discussion. The bottom line for me is this. When the Big Boy runs again we should all be happy because that means someone, somewhere, has taken the bull by the horns and is leading us in the right direction. Let's bring back the remnants we have of the age of steam. For goodness sakes, let's celebrate all of this instead of beating each other into smithereens. 

When the Big Boy runs, I WILL be there. Not exciting enough for you ("yawn), then you need to look into therapy for the steam jaded.

Scrapiron Scher

I agree  and I'm a little jealous, As a Canadian what large steamers do we have running? Nothing.  The 2816 is hidden away someplace.      6060 ...   no idea on it's status.

Scher - I think Rich's "Yawn" is the useless banter we will have to endear...

Not the 4014 coming back on line...

Getting steam engines running again seems routine for Jerry Jacobsen, Strasberg  and a few others.  Should follow them but never, ever sad to see a steamer run. 

A #4000 back in steam is pretty much as good as it will ever get for US preservation. Any steam person with an ounce of marketing smarts can see that this will have positive spill over to the rest of the steam world. Then again, we could just squander the opportunity while bickering and mudslinging. Anyone care to bet on what happens?

Well, that takes care of the fastest...844, and the biggest, 4014.. but the best UP steamer of

all sits waiting..waiting..one of the finest dual service steamers ever built, the Challenger.

Ed

It would be interesting to speculate Ed's medium to long term goal/plans. Having now secured a 15  year "ticket" on 844 his next project as announced is 4014 which will take I guess a few years. Once that is done his next goal surely has to be 3985 and if he plans it right he could end up with all three in steam at the same time.

Is this a plausible plan if you were Ed?

Ukaflyer posted:

It would be interesting to speculate Ed's medium to long term goal/plans. Having now secured a 15  year "ticket" on 844 his next project as announced is 4014 which will take I guess a few years. Once that is done his next goal surely has to be 3985 and if he plans it right he could end up with all three in steam at the same time.

Is this a plausible plan if you were Ed?

No, because he will have NOTHING to do with 3985! In fact, he has been removing various appliances and components (all the superheater units have been destroyed), so as to make 3985 inoperable for the future.

Time will tell what's in store for the 3985....we'll just have to wait and see.  

Hot Water posted:

Ukaflyer posted:

It would be interesting to speculate Ed's medium to long term goal/plans. Having now secured a 15  year "ticket" on 844 his next project as announced is 4014 which will take I guess a few years. Once that is done his next goal surely has to be 3985 and if he plans it right he could end up with all three in steam at the same time.

Is this a plausible plan if you were Ed?

No, because he will have NOTHING to do with 3985! In fact, he has been removing various appliances and components (all the superheater units have been destroyed), so as to make 3985 inoperable for the future.

 

If HW is correct, somebody in Omaha should be concerned.  In other places, destroying company property ON PURPOSE could get one fired, or worse, arrested!

Does anyone know if Dickens ever engineered/ran the #3985, before it was taken out of service???

I just wonder what his beef with engine #3985 is,  other than having it on his "Tombstone" that he was the one who resurrected shopped/overhauled the #4014 back into service for the UP.................................Just Sayin!

Brandy posted:

Does anyone know if Dickens ever engineered/ran the #3985, before it was taken out of service???

I just wonder what his beef with engine #3985 is,  other than having it on his "Tombstone" that he was the one who resurrected shopped/overhauled the #4014 back into service for the UP.................................Just Sayin!

His beef with 3985 is that it is always been associated with Steve Lee and the old crew. He constantly has made excuses on why it isn't running with his latest excuse that it's "too slippery". I'm sure HotWater can give more info on this. 

Brandy posted:

I just wonder what his beef with engine #3985 is,  other than having it on his "Tombstone" that he was the one who resurrected shopped/overhauled the #4014 back into service for the UP.................................Just Sayin!

As mentioned in previous threads (all of which got locked eventually, as will this sooner or later, you can count on that), I think it was said that there was a commonality of parts between Challengers and Big Boys and there might have been something about yanking some parts of 3985 to eventually use on 4014.

I'm not 100% sure of that, but I think I read that on one of the all-long-since-locked threads on this subject.

But the 3985 could have put into operation with some help.  At least store her so it could be placed into service later.  

But I think one's position IN PUBLIC should be neutral concerning UP's equipment.   If Omaha wants 4014 next, so be it.  But the man is responsible for the condition of all the item under him.

Perhaps it is time to press the reset key on opinions related to the UP Steam Program now that 844 is back on the rails and performing well.   I'm going to follow future 844 operations and the 4014 restoration with great interest on this forum.  The die has been cast in favor of near term investment in 4014 over 3985 -  second guessing that decision achieves nothing positive but results in further animosity.  Hopefully the UP Steam Shop people will build on their recent success with 844 and management has learned from past experiences - both positive and negative - time will tell. 

 

If HW is correct, somebody in Omaha should be concerned.  In other places, destroying company property ON PURPOSE could get one fired, or worse, arrested!

Dickens was fired once......then he was brought back to run the whole show.

J Daddy posted:

At least the NS has a steam program... the CSX needs to take note!

NS does not have a steam program. It ended in 2014.

J Daddy posted:

Scher - I think Rich's "Yawn" is the useless banter we will have to endear...

Not quite. The "yawn" indicates my complete lack of interest in the 4014 project.

p51 posted:

...As mentioned in previous threads (all of which got locked eventually, as will this sooner or later...

It will stay open as long as the discussion remains civil. That's in YOUR hands, not mine. If the discussion degenerates into name-calling, as the other UP threads have done, then yes, it will be locked.

Then you can start it all over again.

well then to cool things off let's talk about 1361........(running for cover)

Perhaps our forum should have two separate topic threads that remain open for the duration of the 4014 project. One for the Ed Dickens haters ..... and one for everyone else.

Then ...  the only personal attacks will be directed toward Ed, and the threads would not have to be closed by the moderators.

I would really enjoy following the 4014 project, and would like to hear additional information from objective sources here on OGR. Other websites are already knee deep in anti-Dickens/UPSteam/4014 posts.

I'm not even much of a railfan .... I just enjoy running model trains .... that's why I buy OGR magazine. But, a major rebuilding of a machine such as a "BigBoy" has really sparked my interest.

Yes there is a commonality of parts between the 3985 and the 4014.  

This is from the Union Pacific's home page.  The comparison of size is very interesting,

To learn more about the Union Pacific 4014, and the history. Click here. 

Gary

N&W Class J posted:

Yes there is a commonality of parts between the 3985 and the 4014.  

so 3985 will be back on the rails...at least parts of it.....

To me, a "new" train sets of the two that met in 1869, under STEAM, next to a modern AC Diesel with a stack train would be a better display for the event.   The true THEN and NOW1

OGR Webmaster posted:

Scher - I think Rich's "Yawn" is the useless banter we will have to endear...

Not quite. The "yawn" indicates my complete lack of interest in the 4014 project.

Rich, would you care to state why you have a lack of interest in the 4014?

Matt01 posted:

Perhaps our forum should have two separate topic threads that remain open for the duration of the 4014 project. One for the Ed Dickens haters ..... and one for everyone else.

Then ...  the only personal attacks will be directed toward Ed, and the threads would not have to be closed by the moderators.

I would really enjoy following the 4014 project, and would like to hear additional information from objective sources here on OGR. Other websites are already knee deep in anti-Dickens/UPSteam/4014 posts.

Hold on there Matt,

I have followed the controversy surrounding the UP steam program over these last several years.  After watching a number of videos of Ed Dickens speaking to the public and reading comments from several people who have operated and maintained other steam locomotives I understand why Dickens is himself such a controversial figure.

1.  The 844's boiler received a 1472 operating day/15 year inspection in 2005.  Dickens was appointed manager of the UP Steam program in 2010 and undertook at least two significant changes in operating practices with 844.  He made extensive use of diesel fuel on at least one trip instead of heavy fuel oil.  He also changed water treatment, blowdown and and boiler washing practices.  Since then the 844 has received firebox repairs twice, most recently as part of a 1472 day/15 year inspection that began about 7 years early.  The most commonly believed explanation for the need for boiler repairs to 844 are uneven heating from the use of diesel fuel and corrosion and uneven heating from poor water treatment, blow down and boiler washing practices.

2.  Prior to 2010 the UP steam program formally and informally shared technical information with the rest of the steam community.  They not only shared what they did that worked well but what they did that did not work, why they believed it failed and what others could do to avoid similar problems.  The UP steam program was open to technical advice from others.  Since 2010 that two way flow of information with the steam community has largely stopped.

3.  Dickens has made numerous public statements blaming the need for repairs to 844 on shoddy work by his predecessors.  Many rail fans might not understand what Dickens is saying when he points an accusatory finger at others but those who operated and maintained the 844 and other steam locomotives sure get it.  And they sure don't like being blamed for what they believe are the effects of Dickens poor practices and closed attitude toward technical information. 

I believe that the reason Dickens is such a controversial figure is that he is slow to give or take technical advice but quick to blame those who successfully operated 844 for decades for the recent need for repeated extensive repairs.

Don't those who dislike being blamed for the mistakes of a guy who won't take well informed advice deserve to be called something better than "haters"?

I would like to see the 765 on the CSX River Line - beautiful territory especially in the summer - up through NJ through Bergenfield, Cresskill, Harrington Park, Norwood then  in to NY through Tappan, Orangeburg, etc, along the Hudson River past West  Point and up to Selkirk. That would be a nice trip.

PSU1980 posted:

I would like to see the 765 on the CSX River Line - beautiful territory especially in the summer - up through NJ through Bergenfield, Cresskill, Harrington Park, Norwood then  in to NY through Tappan, Orangeburg, etc, along the Hudson River past West  Point and up to Selkirk. That would be a nice trip.

Okay?? 

I for one don't give much of a flying fart about talk when it comes to any restoration or project. Let's see some work being done. Then I'll show some enthusiasm.

Ted Hikel posted:

Matt01 posted:

Perhaps our forum should have two separate topic threads that remain open for the duration of the 4014 project. One for the Ed Dickens haters ..... and one for everyone else.

Then ...  the only personal attacks will be directed toward Ed, and the threads would not have to be closed by the moderators.

I would really enjoy following the 4014 project, and would like to hear additional information from objective sources here on OGR. Other websites are already knee deep in anti-Dickens/UPSteam/4014 posts.

Hold on there Matt,

I have followed the controversy surrounding the UP steam program over these last several years.  After watching a number of videos of Ed Dickens speaking to the public and reading comments from several people who have operated and maintained other steam locomotives I understand why Dickens is himself such a controversial figure.

1.  The 844's boiler received a 1472 operating day/15 year inspection in 2005.  Dickens was appointed manager of the UP Steam program in 2010 and undertook at least two significant changes in operating practices with 844.  He made extensive use of diesel fuel on at least one trip instead of heavy fuel oil.  He also changed water treatment, blowdown and and boiler washing practices.  Since then the 844 has received firebox repairs twice, most recently as part of a 1472 day/15 year inspection that began about 7 years early.  The most commonly believed explanation for the need for boiler repairs to 844 are uneven heating from the use of diesel fuel and corrosion and uneven heating from poor water treatment, blow down and boiler washing practices.

2.  Prior to 2010 the UP steam program formally and informally shared technical information with the rest of the steam community.  They not only shared what they did that worked well but what they did that did not work, why they believed it failed and what others could do to avoid similar problems.  The UP steam program was open to technical advice from others.  Since 2010 that two way flow of information with the steam community has largely stopped.

3.  Dickens has made numerous public statements blaming the need for repairs to 844 on shoddy work by his predecessors.  Many rail fans might not understand what Dickens is saying when he points an accusatory finger at others but those who operated and maintained the 844 and other steam locomotives sure get it.  And they sure don't like being blamed for what they believe are the effects of Dickens poor practices and closed attitude toward technical information. 

I believe that the reason Dickens is such a controversial figure is that he is slow to give or take technical advice but quick to blame those who successfully operated 844 for decades for the recent need for repeated extensive repairs.

Don't those who dislike being blamed for the mistakes of a guy who won't take well informed advice deserve to be called something better than "haters"?

And don't forget that 3985 COULD have been used up until 2013?? but instead it was pushed back into a corner of the roundhouse and orphaned like a unwanted child. 

bigdodgetrain posted:

Rich, would you care to state why you have a lack of interest in the 4014?

No.

OK, we have been talking about the steamers.  Who is charge of the E units and the 6936?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

OK, we have been talking about the steamers.  Who is charge of the E units and the 6936?

Apparently nobody anymore. They were previously under the responsibility of the Cheyenne Steam Crew, including the big rotary snow plow. But nobody on the current steam crew knows anything about the snow plow, nor the 6936, nor the A-B-A Executive E units, nor even the SW10 shop switcher (which has been out of service for some 3 or 4 years).

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

OK, we have been talking about the steamers.  Who is charge of the E units and the 6936?

Apparently nobody anymore. They were previously under the responsibility of the Cheyenne Steam Crew, including the big rotary snow plow. But nobody on the current steam crew knows anything about the snow plow, nor the 6936, nor the A-B-A Executive E units, nor even the SW10 shop switcher (which has been out of service for some 3 or 4 years).

ER, the E's and the 6936 are DIESELS!

OGR Webmaster posted:

J Daddy posted:

At least the NS has a steam program... the CSX needs to take note!

NS does not have a steam program. It ended in 2014.

J Daddy posted:

Scher - I think Rich's "Yawn" is the useless banter we will have to endear...

Not quite. The "yawn" indicates my complete lack of interest in the 4014 project.

p51 posted:

...As mentioned in previous threads (all of which got locked eventually, as will this sooner or later...

It will stay open as long as the discussion remains civil. That's in YOUR hands, not mine. If the discussion degenerates into name-calling, as the other UP threads have done, then yes, it will be locked.

Then you can start it all over again.

Rich-

The NS still supports the 765 and the 611 and lets them travel their rails,  without the NS they would be land locked.

I am sure you will see no support from CSX on their rails.

I am surprised at your "Lack of Interest" in the 4014. It will be the biggest thing that will hit the nation on rails.

I always considered you to be the ambassador of revived historical steam locomotives... now I will have to rethink that.

J Daddy posted:

The NS still supports the 765 and the 611 and lets them travel their rails,  without the NS they would be land locked...

...I am surprised at your "Lack of Interest" in the 4014. It will be the biggest thing that will hit the nation on rails.

I always considered you to be the ambassador of revived historical steam locomotives... now I will have to rethink that.

We (NKP 765) have a great working relationship with Norfolk Southern.  My comment was simply to correct your statement that NS has a steam program. They do not have a corporate steam program at this time.

Rethink what you must. I simply have no interest in seeing the 4014.

If it was up to the UP shareholders there would be no steam program at all. The shareholders are getting more and more votes each year to scrap the whole thing so just be glad upper management is willing to spend dollars to keep the steam program going. 

It is only a matter of time before the steam program is no more. 

The rotary, e units and 6936 are part of the heritage units and the steam shop. Ed and his crew are responsible to maintain and operate the rotary if and when it's needed. As for recent steam shop history without getting anyones glasses all steamed up there are always two sides to every story and we have been there done that heard that already. Time to move on, watch 4014, 844 and see what happens. 

Personally, I would like to see the 3985 back on the rails before they take on the 4014 project.

That there are people (I never named Rich originally in this post, but you'll see he later quotes this post by saying I did name him, then deleted every post I made pointing out his error) who'd rather not see a Big Boy returned to steam, among supposed train fans, simply staggers the imagination.

I can only assume that some hate Ed SO much that  they'd gleefully deny the rest of us the chance of seeing a 4000 under steam, just to prove themselves right in their hate for the guy.

Frankly, I simply do not care what has happened already. He could be 100% guilty of everything that the usual suspects have accused him of. I just want to see 4014 under steam.

How any train fan wouldn't want the same result speaks for some people's downright hysterical hatred for one guy...

Lee, it's not fair to make the assumption that hate alone is the reason Rich doesn't care for a Big Boy.

I'm a steam guy through and through, but guess what? There are simply some steam locomotives I wouldn't have any interest in seeing returned to steam. That ugly POS CO H-6 Allegheny is one that comes to mind for me, although I know it has legions of fans. I'm just not one of them.

Maybe Rich just has no affection for the Big Boy, and it has nothing to do with ED?

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

OK, we have been talking about the steamers.  Who is charge of the E units and the 6936?

Apparently nobody anymore. They were previously under the responsibility of the Cheyenne Steam Crew, including the big rotary snow plow. But nobody on the current steam crew knows anything about the snow plow, nor the 6936, nor the A-B-A Executive E units, nor even the SW10 shop switcher (which has been out of service for some 3 or 4 years).

Now, to me, dive horns should be going off, because:

1.  Is this an issue with just the Steam Team?

2.  Is this a problem which those who are in the level of management just above the Steam Team?

3.  Is there a major problem within UP as a whole?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

OK, we have been talking about the steamers.  Who is charge of the E units and the 6936?

Apparently nobody anymore. They were previously under the responsibility of the Cheyenne Steam Crew, including the big rotary snow plow. But nobody on the current steam crew knows anything about the snow plow, nor the 6936, nor the A-B-A Executive E units, nor even the SW10 shop switcher (which has been out of service for some 3 or 4 years).

Now, to me, dive horns should be going off, because:

1.  Is this an issue with just the Steam Team?

2.  Is this a problem which those who are in the level of management just above the Steam Team?

3.  Is there a major problem within UP as a whole?

 

Good questions....  When you hire on and qualify as a Engineman or Conductor the only think you can count on is your  Seniority date and your union.  This  lets you know where you stand for the rest of your railroad career. The senior man get the job, even though he may not be the best.  Even if one is promoted to a company official  he still has his conductor or engineman  rights on the seniority list. If things don't work out as an company official he can go back to his old job.  Was Steve Lee   fired?  I doubt it.  I'm sure he must have been a qualified engineman. Maybe he  just  chose to take his pension... I don't know.

Most assignments come up for bid ever so often and the senior man gets the job. 

Where does  the UP former & present steam crew fit in??? Did they pay their dues working a spare board or  freight or pass assignments  for years gaining important train handling  experience ??.

Gregg posted:

Good questions....  When you hire on and qualify as a Engineman or Conductor the only think you can count on is your  Seniority date and your union.  This  lets you know where you stand for the rest of your railroad career. The senior man get the job, even though he may not be the best.  Even if one is promoted to a company official  he still has his conductor or engineman  rights on the seniority list. If things don't work out as an company official he can go back to his old job.  Was Steve Lee   fired? 

No. In April of 2010, Steve was promoted to Superintendent of Heritage Fleet Operations, which left the Manager of the Steam Shop position open. The current manager was brought back, from his job as Engineer in the Denver Pool, to be the manager.

I doubt it.  I'm sure he must have been a qualified engineman.

Yes, Steve Lee was a "qualified Engineer" while on the Rock Island RR, prior to his coming to work for the UP as Road Foreman of Engines, out of Cheyenne, WY.

Maybe he  just  chose to take his pension... I don't know.

Yes, Steve retired from his Superintendent position, at the end of December 2010.

Most assignments come up for bid ever so often and the senior man gets the job. 

You are of course referring to Operating Department, like Engineers, Conductors, Brakemen, etc..

Where does  the UP former & present steam crew fit in???

Which members? The "Operating Dept." members, or the "Mechanical Dept". members?

Did they pay their dues working a spare board or  freight or pass assignments  for years gaining important train handling  experience ??.

Very definitely yes, for the "Operating Dept." crew members. The "Mechanical Dept." members were either Journeymen Machinists, Pipefitters, Boilermakers, Welders, Carmen, and/or Electricians.

 

 

 

 

 

smd4 posted:

....... I'm a steam guy through and through, but guess what? There are simply some steam locomotives I wouldn't have any interest in seeing returned to steam. That ugly POS CO H-6 Allegheny is one that comes to mind for me, although I know it has legions of fans. I'm just not one of them.

Maybe Rich just has no affection for the Big Boy, and it has nothing to do with ED?

Boy .... that stuff goes right over my head. lol

"That ugly POS CO H-6 Allegheny" ......  You guys see things that I don't. I just think of the work it was able to do. You feel that it could have been better designed?

"POS" .... as in "piece of s*** ? "  Do you say that because you feel that it is so ugly? Or, because the locomotive did not perform as you feel it should have? And, that's why Rich does not like the 4014?

I don't understand what's not to like .... in any of these engines.

I know I'm a pretty ugly guy .... I accept it. I didn't realize that people hated me for it.  

Matt Ryan

The assumption of hate is an awful big step.  I think it would be cool to see the 4014 under steam.  However, it so many ways it doesn't make sense when compared to the 3985.  The BB is only slightly more impressive in only a few ways over a challenger.  Size and overall HP and tractive effort is it.  Aesthetically, I find the Challengers much more appealing to the eye.  The Challengers were also much more versatile and the 3985 can go many more places than 4014 will be able to.  The 3985 was also operationally sound and had been that way for 30 years.  To relegate it to nothingness or a donor is spitting in the face of the original all volunteer group who got her running.  I can tell you from standing next to 3985 that at no point did I sit around and think "geez, it's okay but I sure wish it was a BB".

To me the 4014 idea when looking at hard facts with no bias or spin just doesn't make since.  This isn't hate, this is just honesty based upon facts.  The 4014 has a mountain of work to get it ready, and that's just on the known issues.  Things like this always have unknowns.  My other concern, highlighting an earlier post, is how long will the stockholders tolerate it?  If the momentum builds, this could be the sounding of the death knell on the UP steam program.

Just my opinion but, I think both SMD4 and MATT01 need to be aware that the C&O Allegheny was/is a class "H-8", while the C&O "H-6" is the 2-6-6-2 locomotive currently being restored/rebuilt at the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad.

As far as "ugly",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that comes down to personal opinion.

Matt01 posted:

 You feel that it could have been better designed?

I'm sure it was a fine performer. Just butt ugly.

"POS" .... as in "piece of s*** ? "  Do you say that because you feel that it is so ugly?

Yep. See above.

Or, because the locomotive did not perform as you feel it should have? 

Again, see above.

And, that's why Rich does not like the 4014?

I don't know. Only offering it as an alternate reason to the reason that he "hates ED."

I don't understand what's not to like .... in any of these engines.

That's fine.

I know I'm a pretty ugly guy .... I accept it. I didn't realize that people hated me for it.  

Not sure where that came from...

 

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, I think both SMD4 and MATT01 need to be aware that the C&O Allegheny was/is a class "H-8", while the C&O "H-6" is the 2-6-6-2 locomotive currently being restored/rebuilt at the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad.

As far as "ugly",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that comes down to personal opinion.

Thanks Hot. H-8.

It's still ugly.

p51 posted:

That there are people who'd rather not see a Big Boy returned to steam, among supposed train fans, simply staggers the imagination.

I can only assume that some hate Ed SO much that  they'd gleefully deny the rest of us the chance of seeing a 4000 under steam, just to prove themselves right in their hate for the guy.

So now you can read my mind? Wow. You are indeed a piece of work.  

I don't hate Ed. I've never met the man. However, I am concerned that he has turned his back on the rest of the steam locomotive community around the world.

When working together, things have happened in our industry that have mutually benefited ALL of us who operate big steam locomotives. The new CFR230 rules for steam locomotive boilers are a perfect example. They are the result of several big steam locomotive operators working together with the FRA to achieve a goal that was mutually beneficial to all of us. Former UP steam boss Steve Lee was one of the leaders of that effort.

Another example...a few years ago the main line steam loco industry was struggling to find a new source for pin grease for the rods. Texaco High-Tek 8, which we had used for decades, was no longer available. And even though Texaco had given us the formula for it, no one would make it because it was a real witches brew and extremely volatile at certain points in the distillation process. The other greases being promoted at the time for use in this application simply were not working. Then a couple of old heads in the industry got together and figured out a solution. They shared that solution with the rest of us. The result is that we ALL now have a good source of pin grease that WORKS. No more hot pins and damaged rod brasses. I would not be surprised if this grease is being used on the 844's rods.

However, in trying to re-invent the wheel and claim that he knows better than 200 years of accumulated, real-world steam locomotive experience, Ed has done some potentially dangerous things to the 844 that could jeopardize all steam locomotive operators. That concerns me greatly. And that's a big reason why I don't have any interest in seeing the Big Boy. I cannot support someone whom I think has done harm to our industry.

No man is an island...

While I personally am excited to have a 4000 in steam I would prefer to have the 3985 back in stead.  Why?  Well because she was restored by UP employees on their own time, she is 1 of the 2 remaining with the 3977 being the other, she can as previously stated traverse more of the system then the 4014 and in terms of looks she is a better looking locomotive to my eyes.  Not to mention she would require far less time and money to put back out on the rails.  While my favorite scenario would be to have all 3 operating, the 844, 3985 and the 4014 but I don't see how 8 or 10 guys could maintain such a fleet, and operate excursion (s).  

     Now maybe some do "hate Ed"  but I think the bigger picture here is the steam industry as a whole, they are concerned at what appears to be happening in Cheyenne.  There is a lot at stake here if something goes wrong and I can understand the concern being shown by those groups and people that have been in this industry for a long time and have followed the procedures that have been proven over time.  

I just can't understand it. Other than building a new NYC Hudson, this is THE thing you'd hear train fans talking about during, "wouldn't it be cool if..." discussions. And now that it looks like it could be happening, I see so many people who don't want it to happen at all, or for the work to go to 3985 instead.

This is one of those things that if you could take any train fan from, say, the 1990s and bring them forward in time to show them all that has happened to date and the giant, "Meh" that has come from more train fans than I ever thought possible on getting a 4000 under steam, the 90s guy would probably have a stroke from how implausible it seemed.

It's not just here, I see it on other forums, too. And yes, those threads are getting locked on other forums, too. I thought such a discussion could never get as ugly as the PRR 1361 debacle but I was very wrong about that.

The others such as myself have stated very good reasons based upon fact as to why 3985 over 4014.  It's not that I don't want to see it, it's just that it makes no sense.  As said, at cost estimates topping 5 million easily and providing zero financial benefit to the bottom line and the shareholders, this could easily kill the UP steam program for good.  Easy to say "I want BB" when you're not the one footing the bill.

I have just deleted several posts in this thread. The deleted posts are perfect examples of why previous threads like this have gotten locked. And ironically, several of the the posts I had to delete were made by the same person who has accused me of locking these threads too often in the past.

Keep it ON TOPIC without PERSONAL ATTACKS and we'll be fine. Otherwise I will continue to do micro-surgery on this thread deleting individual posts until it gets to be too much work. Then I'll ban the troublesome poster(s) and eliminate the problem.

p51 posted:

I just can't understand it. Other than building a new NYC Hudson, this is THE thing you'd hear train fans talking about during, "wouldn't it be cool if..." discussions.

Well, for me, I've never been a "UP guy." Never really cared for the look of their motive power. That said, I agree that 3985 was more aesthetically pleasing to my eyes than the Big Boy - better balanced and not as long and lanky. Besides, since you're going to be pulling passenger trains, wouldn't you rather pull it with passenger power, and not freight power?

I really don't care one way or the other which one they restore, but don't let that get in the way of your excitement.

I as stated AM excited to see a 4000 in steam, but I don't (personally) want to see it happen at the expense of the 3985.  To me the 3985 represented the working men/women of the UP because of how she came back to life, via these guys volunteering their time before/after working their regular positions....that to me really says something.  Maybe all this is is just what you said.....that you don't understand.  And I don't mean that in any way to be disrespectful...not at all, I simply mean that we all can't understand or wrap out heads around others personal likes/dislikes view points ect...we all feel how we feel and that is ok.  Now I'm very happy to see the 4014 come back but saddened to see the 3985 banished to the roundhouse.

But hey I prefer Corsairs to Mustangs....B-17's to B-24's and I would have voted for Ike! 

Fortunately for the UP 4014 fans none of us gets to vote. UP wants a Big Boy. UP gets a Big Boy. Time to sit back or shine up your 4014 chase vehicle, invest in a new video camera and wait....

Tranz4mr posted:

Fortunately for the UP 4014 fans none of us gets to vote. UP wants a Big Boy. UP gets a Big Boy. Time to sit back or shine up your 4014 chase vehicle, invest in a new video camera and wait....

If the 4014 just happens to be crossing York Road in Elmhurst one fine day, I'll be more than glad to pull out my cell phone an snap a picture of it, but personally I'm quite happy with the Pentrex video's of when the Big Boys did the REAL work they were designed for.

Rusty

  Why should I invest in a new camera when I know Kent will post a quality video when that time comes ?

I ordered two DVD videos last week and they both came today.  "Big Boy 4014" by Pentrex and "Big Boy - On The Road To Restoration"  by Trains Magazine. The next day my grandsons are over, we will watch these together. I also order several books from my Public Library and they are on back order.  Some other Railfan has them checked out.

Click on photo to enlarge.

Gary - Railfan

sigh

It doesn't really matter to me one way or another as to what UP steam runs or not. On another forum I thought a fellow summed it all up very well last week with a statement that went something like this.."The UP Steam program has become nothing more than a playtoy for the UP senior administration upper echelon in Omaha". 

Restoring the Big Boy to steam will be a mile post event.  There will be nothing bigger in the next 20 years... maybe nothing bigger that I will see in my life time. Its too bad Ego's have to get caught into the mix... but so be it. I will still make the trip to see it in action.

Nothing will take away  from this event... Unless those guys get the T-1 done soon.  

CHOO-CHOO MIKE posted:

  Why should I invest in a new camera when I know Kent will post a quality video when that time comes ?

So your driving while I work the hi def video? Cool!

My wife pulled out some photos (prints, not digital .. lol) of my little boys and me standing in front of the BigBoy at Steamtown ... many, many years ago.

We're going to do a whole family trip thing to Wyoming with our now-grown sons .... when 4014 is running.

So ... UP Steam Shop ..... or UP Management .... or the "present steam shop manager" ..... or whoever ..... good luck on this project and thanks for taking the bull by the horns and doing it.

This is pretty cool!

Tranz4mr posted:

CHOO-CHOO MIKE posted:

  Why should I invest in a new camera when I know Kent will post a quality video when that time comes ?

So your driving while I work the hi def video? Cool!

   I should have my Indian Motorcycle with sidecar by then. Sure !

J Daddy posted:

Restoring the Big Boy to steam will be a mile post event.  There will be nothing bigger in the next 20 years... maybe nothing bigger that I will see in my life time. 

It's hard to disagree with you there!

I have pals in England, Germany and one in Australia who all plan on being trackside the first time 4014 pulls an official trip.

OK, here is the BIG question!  Where on the UP system TODAY can a BB go?  I would think there would be issues with it where there are two tracks in curves.

Or, where all can the 3985 go that the 4014 cannot.

TexasSP posted:

Or, where all can the 3985 go that the 4014 cannot.

Well, 3985 actually went to places that FEF-3 844 couldn't go.

Hot Water posted:

TexasSP posted:

Or, where all can the 3985 go that the 4014 cannot.

Well, 3985 actually went to places that FEF-3 844 couldn't go.

Understand, and appreciate the info.  I am just curious what major areas this would restrict access to?

It's just fascinating to me that so many are so ra ra ra over the 4014 they can't see (don't want to see) all the issues surrounding this.

On another note, is 4449 able to go more places than 844, less, or the same.  I know both being northern class locos they are similar, wheel configuration and all, just don't know on the flip side how different they are.

I've read elsewhere that the curves on the UP are broader than they were back when Steve Lee said we'd never see a 4000 under steam, due to much longer locomotives and cars than they had years ago.

Jack, I guess you'd be able to say more about that, as I don't know this for sure.

Rusty Traque posted:

If the 4014 just happens to be crossing York Road in Elmhurst one fine day, I'll be more than glad to pull out my cell phone an snap a picture of it, but personally I'm quite happy with the Pentrex video's of when the Big Boys did the REAL work they were designed for.

Rusty

I grew up in the Chicago area, and your comment just reminded of a certain Chevy dealer at the corner of York and Roosevelt Rd.

It will be interesting to see the 4014 run if they get it restored, though to most folks seeing the 3985 operate would be fine. Aesthetically not sure a Big Boy is the most visually pleasing locomotive ever built either. On a model railroad that huge boiler over hang atrocious. We had a Two Tone Gray 4-8-4 running on a layout in public one day and a father leaned in and asked if it was the UP Challenger. When we explained it was a Northern he said the size and length of it got him confused. Never realized it wasn't articulated until we pointed it out to him. Doubt seeing the 4014 run versus the 3985 would make any difference to him or his family.

I wonder what the difference in clearance is between the Challenger & Big Boy  when the  boiler  sticks out on  curves.  .  On double track  it may be a concern or even on single track in rock cuts however I   bet UP has the clearance right down to the 1/4 inch figured out  on all their  main line tracks. It'll be tracks other than the main track that might pose a problem.

  Maybe on double track they will treat the big boy as a dimensional  load with special handling instructions .(single track movement only so the crew would have to get  authority for both main line tracks even though they're only using one.) Maybe nothing is required? anyone in the know?

J Daddy posted:

Restoring the Big Boy to steam will be a mile post event.  There will be nothing bigger in the next 20 years... maybe nothing bigger that I will see in my life time. Its too bad Ego's have to get caught into the mix... but so be it. I will still make the trip to see it in action.

Nothing will take away  from this event... Unless those guys get the T-1 done soon.  

 

I have to agree what a great thing to see! I don't care if ED Dickens doesn't play well with all the other know it alls in the steam world! Who cares! At least Ed can be able to say he restored not only the 844 but, a Big Boy as well! That's quite an accomplishment that we all get to Benefit from! Even this hobby!

 

And I wonder how many children will ask while seeing a UP steamer why the engine is not painted BLUE, with a big Number 1!

The biggest issue that I can think of, is the same for all 3 classes of engines. The Centipede tender causes more issues than the driver wheelbase. 4449 can probably go more places than 844 just for this reason alone.

wasn't the route the bigboy took from Los Angeles to Wyoming over track that some say it could not negotiate ?  yet it did negotiate it very well.

Hotwater, may have better info, but I believe that the Big Boys were cleared into LA, but, I don't believe that they ever went there. The same with Pocatello, ID, I believe that was another route that they were cleared for, but never ran.

 I have no idea if there have been any track or clearance changes since then, that may effect where they once were cleared for, restricting them now.

Doug

Just waisted time reading this thread and learning nothing.  The hate ed deal will always be discussed and information comes best from  UP.  4014 is getting more attention than any other engine in the US and that bothers many.  The wheel base of 4014,s drivers is less than 844 so 4014 can go where 844 went.

bigdodgetrain posted:

wasn't the route the bigboy took from Los Angeles to Wyoming over track that some say it could not negotiate ?  yet it did negotiate it very well.

Who said that? How do you think the 4014 got to the Pomona museum in the early 60s in the first place? Pretty dang sure it took the same route that it took going back to Cheyenne a couple years ago. 

ironlake2 posted:

Just waisted time reading this thread and learning nothing.  The hate ed deal will always be discussed and information comes best from  UP.  4014 is getting more attention than any other engine in the US and that bothers many.  The wheel base of 4014,s drivers is less than 844 so 4014 can go where 844 went.

Another that Hotwater, will be able to comment on with more authority, but it is NOT just the drivers wheelbase, that is the issue, but also the boiler swing out in curves, that can cause problems with the 4014. 3985, does have boiler swing clearance issues too, but not as severe as the 4014.

   Since steam was retired in 1959, (IIRC, the last Big Boy revenue run was July 21, 1959) many curve alignments and signal/other clearance measurements have been reduced, as improvements were made, and diesels not needing as generous clearances as articulated steam locomotives. There are now places that a Big Boy was cleared to operate in the past, that no longer have adequate clearances for a Big Boy, to operate through today.

Doug

OK, she did go home from LA, but there is one problem with that route, and some in WY.  It runs through some of the least populated parts of the UP system!  Plus, it might have to run at very low speed to get though.  Sure, other BB's went to others places for preservation, BUT NOT UNDER STEAM AT SPEED!

I wouldn't worry about the rigid wheelbase as much as the boiler swing and the tender.  But I'm sure the UP knows it's track clearances and alignments ect.....it will be understood /known/figured out by the time they light a fire in the 4014.

N&W Class J posted:

I wouldn't worry about the rigid wheelbase as much as the boiler swing and the tender.  But I'm sure the UP knows it's track clearances and alignments ect.....it will be understood /known/figured out by the time they light a fire in the 4014.

Exactly. Rigid wheelbase should be less than 844 and larger than 3985. I'm wondering how they will repair the roughly repaired/welded pilot (cow catcher)

challenger3980 posted:

ironlake2 posted:

Just waisted time reading this thread and learning nothing.  The hate ed deal will always be discussed and information comes best from  UP.  4014 is getting more attention than any other engine in the US and that bothers many.  The wheel base of 4014,s drivers is less than 844 so 4014 can go where 844 went.

Another that Hotwater, will be able to comment on with more authority, but it is NOT just the drivers wheelbase, that is the issue, but also the boiler swing out in curves, that can cause problems with the 4014. 3985, does have boiler swing clearance issues too, but not as severe as the 4014.

   Since steam was retired in 1959, (IIRC, the last Big Boy revenue run was July 21, 1959) many curve alignments and signal/other clearance measurements have been reduced, as improvements were made, and diesels not needing as generous clearances as articulated steam locomotives. There are now places that a Big Boy was cleared to operate in the past, that no longer have adequate clearances for a Big Boy, to operate through today.

Doug

Doug, I do not see where clearances have been reduced since 1959.  States have minimum toe path requirements, FRA has increased minumin clearances for M of W employees, there have been line relocations, to reduce curvature and grades, longer turnouts are used to increase speeds, modern construction has eliminated many tunnels, double stack has required improving overhead clearances, pole lines are mostly gone, and steel truss bridges are being replaced with concrete structures which do not extend above the rail head.  In the 1960s railroads were trying freight cars in excess of 100 foot in length. The Union Pacific uses a laser clearance car to check clearances which provides a digital out put that is used to automate checking of clearances on all their lines.   My experience is that clearances have never been better. 

I am not a fan of mainline steam because I do not think moden engineering departments appreciate the effect of dynamic augment, but if they are willing to take the risk, I am willing to watch.  As for 4014, I will be interested to see how they handling the firing issues.  In excursion service they will only need a fraction of 4014 potential.  This could be a bigger problem with an oil burner than if they had stayed with coal.  

challenger3980 posted:

   Since steam was retired in 1959, (IIRC, the last Big Boy revenue run was July 21, 1959) many curve alignments and signal/other clearance measurements have been reduced, as improvements were made, and diesels not needing as generous clearances as articulated steam locomotives. There are now places that a Big Boy was cleared to operate in the past, that no longer have adequate clearances for a Big Boy, to operate through today.

I heard from a BNSF employee recently that many railroads, which run much longer/taller stuff than they did back when 3985 returned to steam in the 80s, have curves that are broader in yards and other 'tight' places than in years past.

I'm hardly an MOW expert, but if management in Omaha isn't wetting their pants over a 4-8-8-4 going over their line, I'm certainly not going to.

David Johnston posted: 

 

In excursion service they will only need a fraction of 4014 potential.  This could be a bigger problem with an oil burner than if they had stayed with coal.  

 

Why??

smd4 posted:

David Johnston posted: 

 

In excursion service they will only need a fraction of 4014 potential.  This could be a bigger problem with an oil burner than if they had stayed with coal.  

 

Why??

The firebox temperatures react far more quickly to changes in firing rates than does a coal burner. Remember, there really is no large heat-sink of red hot coals in an oil burning firebox, only a big flame. Temperature changes occur pretty slowly with a coal burner, but not so with an oil burner. Without the proper amount of fire brick to retain heat, serious stresses can occur within the sheets & staybolts of oil burning fireboxes. In fact, back in the old days of regular mainline steam, the fireboxes of oil burning locomotives had projected life expectancies of only 10 years, while coal burning locomotives were not scheduled for firebox renewal for at least 15 years.

But why will oil firing be an issue if the engine isn't pushed to it's limit?

smd4 posted:

But why will oil firing be an issue if the engine isn't pushed to it's limit?

Maybe because nobody on the current UP steam crew has any experience with a locomotive & firebox THAT BIG? 

HA!

Tranz4mr posted

 I'm wondering how they will repair the roughly repaired/welded pilot (cow catcher)

Possibly exchange it with another on display?  or re-weld and grind maybe??  Or maybe nothing???

Lee (P51), I am hardly wetting my pants over this.

David Johnston, I can't cite an exact quote or article, But to the best of my knowledge, Steve Lee had commented on the reduced clearances, and lack of turning facilities, as liabilities of operating a Big Boy.

Steve Lee, would be one that would have known, BUT, he also was no more enthusiastic about seeing a BB, restored, than Ed Dickens is about ever seeing the 3985 run again.

Another issue that Jack (Hotwater) may have information to add, I am just going off memory, and am pretty certain that it was Steve Lee, that commented on the clearances having been reduced.

I am certainly not in any need of Depends(Adult Diapers) over the subject,

Doug

Thanks to the guys who explained why Mister Ed is not held in such high esteem by, if not his colleagues per se, but others deeply involved in steam restoration and operation.  That is helpful to understand where the bad feelings come from.  No man is an island.  That says a lot about his management style if you read into it.  I have no dog in this fight, I don't even have a dog, I have a fish tank though, but that's another story.  Good to know a bit more about both sides of this story.  

N&W Class J posted:

Tranz4mr posted

 I'm wondering how they will repair the roughly repaired/welded pilot (cow catcher)

Possibly exchange it with another on display?  or re-weld and grind maybe??  Or maybe nothing???

If it's easily removed I guess they arrange to swap it with a different one. If not they have a lot of grinding and welding to do. 

Are there any new welding technologies that can be used on the Big Boy 4014 restoration project , that were not used on the 844 restoration project?

Gary / Rail fan

I was not aware of any controversy  surrounding the restoration of Big Boy 4014 until today.  I am actually quite shocked to read this thread.

How can any train guy not want to see this marvelous engine moving under it's own power?  Regardless of who you like or dislike?  Regardless of which railroad it comes from?  Regardless of whether you think it is ugly or not?  Or that Challenger 3985 is better looking?  Just a few days ago I sent a picture of an operating Heisler engine to a friend of mine and commented that "I love this engine because it is so **** ugly".  I love trains!  Just two weeks ago, I took my youngest grandson to see Big Boy 4005.  He liked it.

I am also optimistic that UP will not abandon the operation of 3985.  And I look forward to the possibility of seeing three of the largest steam engines in the world operating out of the same barn.

To you guys working on 4014, I congratulate you on what you are doing and wish you the best!

Yesterday August 20, 2016, to help with my learning more about the Union Pacific Steam Shop Program, 844 and 4014, I went out to watch the Pere Marquette Berkshire / 2-8-4 run on the main line in Howell , Michigan.

I learned about there restoration and maintenance programs and of course I asked questions about the Union Pacific Steam Shop, restoration projects, 844 & 4014. The 1225 steam shop is located in Owosso, Michigan.  That would be about 75 miles north of my train room.

As the UP 4014 project progresses, I plan on hanging out at the 1225 Round House to see what I can learn about steam restoration. You can read books, watch videos, but for myself, I feel the Round House in Owosso will be one more great source for information.

Click here, Michigan Steam Train  /  Below are two photos to help tell my story about steam power as related to the UP 844 & 4014.

Gary - Railfan

R. Hales posted:

I was not aware of any controversy  surrounding the restoration of Big Boy 4014 until today.  I am actually quite shocked to read this thread.

How can any train guy not want to see this marvelous engine moving under it's own power?  Regardless of who you like or dislike?  Regardless of which railroad it comes from?  Regardless of whether you think it is ugly or not?  Or that Challenger 3985 is better looking?  Just a few days ago I sent a picture of an operating Heisler engine to a friend of mine and commented that "I love this engine because it is so **** ugly".  I love trains!  Just two weeks ago, I took my youngest grandson to see Big Boy 4005.  He liked it.

I am also optimistic that UP will not abandon the operation of 3985.  And I look forward to the possibility of seeing three of the largest steam engines in the world operating out of the same barn.

To you guys working on 4014, I congratulate you on what you are doing and wish you the best!

Mr. Hales, you have done a magnificent job telling it like it is sir......And I commend you!......................Brandy! 

Goshawk posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

If the 4014 just happens to be crossing York Road in Elmhurst one fine day, I'll be more than glad to pull out my cell phone an snap a picture of it, but personally I'm quite happy with the Pentrex video's of when the Big Boys did the REAL work they were designed for.

Rusty

I grew up in the Chicago area, and your comment just reminded of a certain Chevy dealer at the corner of York and Roosevelt Rd.

Celozzi-Ettleson Chevrolet was I think on RT 83 and Roosevelt. "Where you always save more money".

i don't know if 4014 would fit on the Proviso turntable. Where would they turn that thing anywhere out this way? Wasn't there a story of 611 hitting something on CNW bridges in Chicago. Can 4014 run this far east?

I believe the incident with the 611 occurred on the IHB when a crosshead guide yoke struck a bridge support, but that was back in the early 80's so I don't know what if anything has changed.

Tranz4mr posted:

If it's easily removed I guess they arrange to swap it with a different one. If not they have a lot of grinding and welding to do. 

Boy you aren't kidding...what a job. 

trainroomgary posted:

Yesterday August 20, 2016, to help with my learning more about the Union Pacific Steam Shop Program, 844 and 4014, I went out to watch the Pere Marquette Berkshire / 2-8-4 run on the main line in Howell , Michigan.

I learned about there restoration and maintenance programs and of course I asked questions about the Union Pacific Steam Shop, restoration projects, 844 & 4014. The 1225 steam shop is located in Owosso, Michigan.  That would be about 75 miles north of my train room.

As the UP 4014 project progresses, I plan on hanging out at the 1225 Round House to see what I can learn about steam restoration. You can read books, watch videos, but for myself, I feel the Round House in Owosso will be one more great source for information.

Click here, Michigan Steam Train  /  Below are two photos to help tell my story about steam power as related to the UP 844 & 4014.

Gary - Railfan

Ha I'm in the first photo. Furthest to the left in the hat. Glad you came out! And I encourage anyone to visit a local or preferred railmuseam to learn more about how machines like this operate. Sure there are drastic differnences but it helps to have a better appreciation and understanding of steam locomotives and the work that goes into them.

The Bellcaptain posted:

 

 Ha I'm in the first photo. Furthest to the left in the hat. Glad you came out! And I encourage anyone to visit a local or preferred railmuseam to learn more about how machines like this operate. Sure there are drastic differnences but it helps to have a better appreciation and understanding of steam locomotives and the work that goes into them.

Hi Bellcaptain / Thanks for the tips  on the Steam Railroading Institute / This video will show what I have been up too. As we wait for the next U.P. update. Play time five minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZt83PevSyM

KEY FACTS

01:02 Drive Wheel Diameter 69 inches

01:52 Uses 150 gallons of water per mile

01:58 Holds 22,000 gallons of water per mile

02:04 Holds 22 tons of coal

02:55 Steam shop is at Owosso, Michigan

03:04 Uses 1 ton of coal every 12 miles

04:20 Great Lake Central Railroad, Diesel Helper

04:28 Steam Railroading Institute

Thanks: Gary, railfanning in Michigan

Steam Update: Big Boy Progress No. 4014, and ’Trek to Tennessee' Preparation by Union Pacific Steamshop Manager, Ed Dickens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...ature=em-uploademail

Published on Oct 12, 2016 - On YT - Play time: One minute, 34 seconds.

Ed Dickens, Union Pacific senior manager - heritage operations, discusses progress on the restoration of the Big Boy, locomotive No. 4014, and what's involved in preparing for locomotive No. 844's trip to Memphis, Tennessee.

Gary - Railfan

The Union Pacific No. 844 is on it’s trek to Tennessee,  This was filmed today, Oct 13, 2016. One hour out of Cheyenne, Wyoming.

You Tube: Play Time is; 23 seconds. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...ature=em-uploademail

Cool video. Thanks TRG. 

Great shot !!  Hope there is more posted.

What was the last car on the train?  HEP power car?

trainroomgary posted:

The Union Pacific No. 844 is on it’s trek to Tennessee,  This was filmed today, Oct 13, 2016. One hour out of Cheyenne, Wyoming.

You Tube: Play Time is; 23 seconds. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...ature=em-uploademail

Are we sure this isn't CGI or a model on a layout?  I'm pretty sure we were told that this wouldn't happen.

I'm glad the naysayers were wrong.

Well that is the longest train 844 has pulled unassisted since 2010 

Dominic Mazoch posted:

What was the last car on the train?  HEP power car?

That is the Bunk Car from the rotary snow plow equipment. Maybe they eat & sleep in it.

Gary,

      Thanks for the video.  I learned yesterday, the 13th, of 844 getting underway to the Big River Crossing in Memphis.  There will be the opening of the "Big River Crossing" on Oct. 22 in Memphis, Tenn. and 844 will be on a planned 19 day round-trip running.  After spending a layover in Van Buren, Ark. the night of Oct. 25th on the return trip, she will run West/North through Oklahoma with scheduled brief stops in Sallisaw on the 26th, then on to Kansas with stops in Wagoner, Claremore and Nowata, Oklahoma.  Not bad for a 72 year old, after 3 years of restoration, and proof of the power of yesterday's steam power. 

  I was fortunate to see 3985 on excursion through the Chicago area in 2002.  They had to run her up to Milwaukee and use the wye "up there" for turning her around and also witnessed/taped the return trip on the next day.  OK... so where have I put that CD of 3985 run through the North Illinois area????   My wife and I are considering the 3 hr. drive to Sallisaw on the 26th and I plan to record that visit, and hopefully some of her running.  Now for getting footage of 4012 when she, also, is back on the rails and strutting her stuff.

Again, Gary, thanks for the information and video.

Jesse    TCA  12-68275 

Thanks for the video.. brings a little smile to me.   Sometimes you can tell who's running the engine by the whistle.  I don't think it was Ed Dickens but the video was very brief.

I'm not even a fan of UP, and that brings tears to my eyes.............

The more locomotives under steam, the better!

Barring any problems at home or work, I'll be waiting on 844 at a convenient spot south of Durand, KS on 10-27. Will be the 7th time to see this engine and the first time since October of 2012.

There is no plan for the 4012 at steamtown to be rebuilt. Being outside and not taken care of all these years will doom it to scrap if not taken care of. 

The main rods were also cut in half. 

david1 posted:

There is no plan for the 4012 at steamtown to be rebuilt. Being outside and not taken care of all these years will doom it to scrap if not taken care of. 

The main rods were also cut in half. 

Are you sure you don't mean the piston rods were cut?

Day 2 • Today, October 14th, 2016 • The 844 stops at Gibbon, Nebraska on it’s was to Tennessee.                                   On YT - Play time; 3 minute & 22 seconds.  Enjoy.

Gary - Railfain

Gregg posted:

Thanks for the video.. brings a little smile to me.   Sometimes you can tell who's running the engine by the whistle.  I don't think it was Ed Dickens but the video was very brief.

Yes that was Ed.  

N&W Class J posted:

Gregg posted:

Thanks for the video.. brings a little smile to me.   Sometimes you can tell who's running the engine by the whistle.  I don't think it was Ed Dickens but the video was very brief.

Yes that was Ed.  

Correct. Nobody, but NOBODY, operates 844 except the current manager.

Hot Water posted:

N&W Class J posted:

Gregg posted:

Thanks for the video.. brings a little smile to me.   Sometimes you can tell who's running the engine by the whistle.  I don't think it was Ed Dickens but the video was very brief.

Yes that was Ed.  

Correct. Nobody, but NOBODY, operates 844 except the current manager.

I don't believe you and I don't really care one way or the other.

Gregg posted:

Hot Water posted:

N&W Class J posted:

Gregg posted:

Thanks for the video.. brings a little smile to me.   Sometimes you can tell who's running the engine by the whistle.  I don't think it was Ed Dickens but the video was very brief.

Yes that was Ed.  

Correct. Nobody, but NOBODY, operates 844 except the current manager.

I don't believe you and I don't really care one way or the other.

Believe it! Ever since his Fireman, Ted, was running and forgot the MU'ed diesel was still in throttle 6/7 while he was trying to stop, and wound up flattening all the drive wheels, nobody but NOBODY runs 844.

Hot Water posted:

Gregg posted:

Hot Water posted:

N&W Class J posted:

Gregg posted:

Thanks for the video.. brings a little smile to me.   Sometimes you can tell who's running the engine by the whistle.  I don't think it was Ed Dickens but the video was very brief.

Yes that was Ed.  

Correct. Nobody, but NOBODY, operates 844 except the current manager.

I don't believe you and I don't really care one way or the other.

Believe it! Ever since his Fireman, Ted, was running and forgot the MU'ed diesel was still in throttle 6/7 while he was trying to stop, and wound up flattening all the drive wheels, nobody but NOBODY runs 844.

1.  Was that disaster with UP 1982 near Austin TX?

2.  But how can you train new people to tun her if only one person is always in 

Hot Water posted:

Gregg posted:

Hot Water posted:

N&W Class J posted:

Gregg posted:

Thanks for the video.. brings a little smile to me.   Sometimes you can tell who's running the engine by the whistle.  I don't think it was Ed Dickens but the video was very brief.

Yes that was Ed.  

Correct. Nobody, but NOBODY, operates 844 except the current manager.

I don't believe you and I don't really care one way or the other.

Believe it! Ever since his Fireman, Ted, was running and forgot the MU'ed diesel was still in throttle 6/7 while he was trying to stop, and wound up flattening all the drive wheels, nobody but NOBODY runs 844.

1.  Was that disaster with UP 1982 near Austin TX?

2.  But how can you train new people to tun her if only one person is always in the right seat?

OK..... do not know if it was a slip of the finger or the mind... or both.  YES it is 4014 as everybody knows.  May have been sub-thinking of the BB I have, as many do, #4012, and that transposed to the fingers and keys...........

I am just glad to be witness to the great restoration and running of such wonderful, excellent examples of solid technology.  Not simply tech outdated in one year and dependent upon software not messing it up.  Just as we still enjoy getting our hands greasy and glowing in the light of hearing the rumble and roar when the throttle is pressed.  And AWAY we GO !!!!!!!

Jesse     TCA   12-68275

Hot Water posted:

david1 posted:

There is no plan for the 4012 at steamtown to be rebuilt. Being outside and not taken care of all these years will doom it to scrap if not taken care of. 

The main rods were also cut in half. 

Are you sure you don't mean the piston rods were cut?

 The last time I was there about 7 years ago I do believe it was the main rods that

were the ones cut. 

david1 posted:

Hot Water posted:

david1 posted:

There is no plan for the 4012 at steamtown to be rebuilt. Being outside and not taken care of all these years will doom it to scrap if not taken care of. 

The main rods were also cut in half. 

Are you sure you don't mean the piston rods were cut?

 The last time I was there about 7 years ago I do believe it was the main rods that

were the ones cut. 

 

Well, probably not. The standard practice on UP was to cut the piston rods, on steam locomotives being donated. But simply cutting the piston rods, the running gear was still "in balance", thus could be towed dead at fairly reasonable speeds. If the main rods had been cot, the the running gear would have been seriously out of rotational balance, and could have only been towed at pretty slow speeds.

david1 posted:

Hot Water posted:

david1 posted:

There is no plan for the 4012 at steamtown to be rebuilt. Being outside and not taken care of all these years will doom it to scrap if not taken care of. 

The main rods were also cut in half. 

Are you sure you don't mean the piston rods were cut?

 The last time I was there about 7 years ago I do believe it was the main rods that

were the ones cut. 

 

The main rods look intact to me.  However, the piston rods and crosshead links are gone.

Rusty

Why would anyone cut the rods ?? To move it?  Were they frozen ?  Stupid.

jim pastorius posted:

Why would anyone cut the rods ?? To move it?  Were they frozen ?  Stupid.

Look at the photo, posted above. The main rods are NOT cut, just the piston rods are gone.

I talked to a buddy of mine who lives about five minutes from steamtown and he confirmed that it is the piston rods that were missing. The main rods are intact. 

Sorry for the misinformation. 

jim pastorius posted:

Why would anyone cut the rods ?? To move it?  Were they frozen ?  Stupid.

I'm Surprised Hotwater didn't answer this one, it wasn't "Stupid" to cut the piston rods, they were cut because moving a steam locomotive dead will cause damage moving it with dry cylinders.

 Even running down a long downhill grade, some throttle needs to be used to keep some steam flowing to lubricate the cylinders.

Doug

I am not a railroader but have read a lot about steam engines and realize the pistons and rods need lubed  when they are moving.  If they didn't have a functioning lube system I thought they would disconnect the rods.  Too much work ??

jim pastorius posted:

Why would anyone cut the rods ?? To move it?  Were they frozen ?  Stupid.

challenger3980 posted:

I'm Surprised Hotwater didn't answer this one, it wasn't "Stupid" to cut the piston rods, they were cut because moving a steam locomotive dead will cause damage moving it with dry cylinders.

Hot Water posted:

Look at the photo, posted above. The main rods are NOT cut, just the piston rods are gone.

Nobody cut anything! Good grief!

The pistons and the piston rods were REMOVED from the Steamtown Big Boy years ago. This was done so they could move it without damaging the dry, un-lubed cylinders.

I think we could use a dose of common sense here...wow.

OK. Then that puts to rest the "they cut the rods"  myth that has circulated a loonnngg time!  Thanks. I bought your magazine today at my LHS !!

jim pastorius posted:

OK. Then that puts to rest the "they cut the rods"  myth that has circulated a loonnngg time!  Thanks. I bought your magazine today at my LHS !!

Well, that only puts to rest that rumor for the Steam Town 4012. There are many other UP steam locomotives on display around the U.S. with the piston rods cut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71OEmDIVfu8

Day 3 • Today, October 15, 2016 • Union Pacific 844 stops at Marysville, Kansas.

YT • Playtime. one minute & 32 seconds. Enjoy.  On time, UP Yard Office, 609 N. 2nd. Street.

Gary; Railfan

4018 had some cutting done.......

Quick and easy.

I took these pictures of 4012 at steamtown 4 years ago.

Day 4, Today Sunday October 16, 2016 

The 844 is On Display at Union Station, (All day)

Kansas City, MO  /  30 W. Pershing Rd.

Photos are from Union Pacific Corp.

Gary - Railfan

Just so long they are using the right chemicals to treat the boiler water, "blow out" the sludge from the boiler (I guess there is a proper term for this) and treat her well.

Day 5, Today • Monday, October 17, 2016 - Union Pacific 844, Leaves Union Pacific Station, Kansas City, MO