Update on Kohs Big Boy

Sorry to hear this about several people losing their deposits. A friend has put a deposit down on the N&W Class before  a deposit was requested.  He may never see the model for years to come if not at all.

Stephen

unbelievable .  Looks like it as been 17 years in the making.

4/3/02 - This project has a new position in our schedule. A further update will be posted in the next few days.

Bob

Bob Harris posted:

unbelievable .

Bob

You're not wrong!

n.

wow... it does seem like about a decade ago that i got their initial sales pitch literature.  have to see if i saved it... may be a collector's item. 

Taking reservation on a project started 4/3/02 and last update 6/1/19 and still not a sample model of the BB with no idea when finished models will be ready for shipment or even started. Odd that refunds are not being returned on a 17 ongoing  year project with no end in sight.

Who says "O" scalers  don't have patience. Meanwhile have some future ocean site property for sale in Arizona.

Time for a lawsuit. My question is why would anybody ever deal with Kohs now or in the future? 

Dave

david1 posted:

Time for a lawsuit. My question is why would anybody ever deal with Kohs now or in the future? 

Dave

Very good question. he is doing this as in postal fraud and federal issues across  interstate lines. There are ways to get your refund back.

I would guest if a deposit was made by Credit Card the card company could take recourse for you.  If one got a lawyer what type of lawyer would you need?  Sad this project is turning out this way.  I was looking forward to future projects.  Maybe George diSanti has some advise since he made everyone aware of the what is going on.

Stephen

nw2124 posted:

I would guest if a deposit was made by Credit Card the card company could take recourse for you.  If one got a lawyer what type of lawyer would you need?  Sad this project is turning out this way.  I was looking forward to future projects.  Maybe George diSanti has some advise since he made everyone aware of the what is going on.

Stephen

ttis is noting new with him been going on for years, people just like to throw money away. Always looking for another fish to scam . ask him about the flat cars and cabooses.

Bob

Before you fine folks start to bash someone, maybe you should look into things a bit.

Copied from the Big Boy order form on the Kohs website:

Union Pacific 4884 class 'Big Boy' Order Form Before ordering please confirm availability with us directly. The price for all versions is $6,000USD (plus shipping), a $3,000USD nonrefundable deposit is required at the time of ordering to secure your reservation, this now includes a $1,500USD incremental payment previously specified at the outset of this project. The balance including shipping will be due prior to delivery.

This is copied from the project page and mentions the beginning of the reservation process:

10/28/14 - Good news........the production schedule for the remainder of this year and 2015 has been set........long story short, the reservation process for the Big Boy can now begin!

So Mr. Kohs has not had anyone's deposit for 7 years.

So sadly Mr. diSanti's friend has no case, and if he was really worried about sending his son to college he shouldn't have been blowing money on brass models.

Simon

Its only been a little under 5 years and really no projected delivery date and with the extended time frame I would doubt the 6k is a guaranteed final price. For most of the buyers at this level of investment 3k is not a big deal for most of us the term "non refundable should be a "red flag" like the market states " past performance is no guarantee for future investments" just saying.

.......and Key lists a Big Boy project on their website !  Maybe George is working in a saturated Big Boy market !?      So, hold the Big Boys, and do a Rock Island 4-8-4 !!!!

mark s posted:

.......and Key lists a Big Boy project on their website !  Maybe George is working in a saturated Big Boy market !?      So, hold the Big Boys, and do a Rock Island 4-8-4 !!!!

I don't have figures to back up the accuracy, but I have read or heard at various sites on the web, that the 2 most imported locomotives are the Big Boy and Cab Forward. Whether these sources are referring to O scale, HO scale or all scales combined I'm not certain.

Apparently there is a faction of devotees with deep pockets, searching for the ultimate model, that support production of these models, that proven by the fact that they (importers) keep having them built.

Mark, You'll have to lure away some of those BB buyers, and note: I am NOT one of them.

Simon

Actually, Simon a product has to be delivered in a reasonable time frame or a refund is required by law to be returned. Second, some people who have reserved a BB did not cancel their reserved version but was cancelled be Kohs himself without informing them. Law I believe is that a deposit has to be returned in 30 Days if the company does not produce the item ordered or is not produced in a reasonable amount of time unless that law has changed.

Second - Key is not doing the BB as he can not find a builder to do it. Maybe has to do with rumors that he did not take possession of the full run of Cab Forwards? Maybe someone has more information on what has happened. This is what I am hearing from a close friend in Texas.

George diSanti

Where the Tar Heels rule!

I believe Key imported 75 cab forwards and there were a number of buyers who bought more than one of the available variants so for all practical purposes the market at that price range was about 50 +/- buyers. With the real BB up and running that market could increase even with higher pricing in the future, Division Point is over 4k for newest HO articulateds, based on the response to the Cab Forwards Key would be my choice for the ultimate Big Boy [not that I am interested in that kind of investment] just saying.

Its interesting to visit the Kohs website and read the posted updates on the BB project.

I can understand why folks, with the discretionary funds, pre-order Kohs items.  As they are built to order, and in relatively small quantities, they are very hard to find on the secondary market. 

To some degree, this is also true of 3rd Rail/Sunset as well.  Interestingly though, they don't require any down payments, although I realize their offerings are priced at about half or Kohs items, so I understand they are carrying less debt on a project than Kohs.

Jim

Jim: I think you should take a look a the auction site to see all the 3rd rail locomotives for sale. There are more 3rd rail that any other company and then some. Yes there are some scorce items, but otherwise tons of it for sale!! 

Hibar: The Kohs would be a better buy on the BB. The Key cab forward was an inferior model even to the Kohs Challenger. The Key model was over price for the quality delivered. The key model didn't even have punched rivets, as Kohs models. Keys says his model was sold out, yet he keeps bringing cab forwards to the shows. (3 the last show). Lately Key has not mention the BB due to lack of builder per Gorge diSanti. He can't get enough orders for the F2 to FL9s, SD40-2, or even the GP38, GP38AC, GP38-2, GP40, and GP40-2s which is now put on the side bar.  The Key situation looks bleak to say the least.

Gosh, I saw the Kohs UP Challenger at the Chicago March O Scale Meet a couple of years ago, and I thought it was spectacular. Had the heft of the prototype and a myriad of intimate details.

What perhaps we are witnessing is the withering of the O Scale brass market - - - not enough buyers to support highly detailed, expensive models.

mark s posted:

What perhaps we are witnessing is the withering of the O Scale brass market - - - not enough buyers to support highly detailed, expensive models.

Maybe......if it's a repeat of a repeat of a repeat.....  Models of stuff that's not been done before or for a very long time have fared well - Sunset's N&W 4-8-0's come to mind.  Maybe the real market is more in that direction? 

I would agree, MWB. I have no interest in a model of a Big Boy, but interest in a batch of mid-sized and small steam locomotives. But given the aging-out of the interested buying population, the weakening of many folks economic condition, etc., I am not optimistic.

mark s posted:

What perhaps we are witnessing is the withering of the O Scale brass market - - - not enough buyers to support highly detailed, expensive models.

No, what you are witnessing is peoples patience boiling over. 

MWB: I agree the Sunset N&W M 4-8-0's was spectacular, I bought 4 of them. Yet that model according to Scott would not have been made if it wasn't for the Strasburg offering.

George diSanti posted:

Actually, Simon a product has to be delivered in a reasonable time frame or a refund is required by law to be returned. Second, some people who have reserved a BB did not cancel their reserved version but was cancelled be Kohs himself without informing them. Law I believe is that a deposit has to be returned in 30 Days if the company does not produce the item ordered or is not produced in a reasonable amount of time unless that law has changed.

Second - Key is not doing the BB as he can not find a builder to do it. Maybe has to do with rumors that he did not take possession of the full run of Cab Forwards? Maybe someone has more information on what has happened. This is what I am hearing from a close friend in Texas.

George diSanti

Where the Tar Heels rule!

Hello George,

I'm not an expert, or even a novice regarding contract law, but i"m guessing that they who fill out the Kohs reservation are signing a contract for GK to deliver 1 of 5 variations of the Big Boy, henceforth to be recognized as BB by members of the forum! Sorry, had to inject a little levity!

If reasonable applies (I do not know the law, but I would think it might not apply if a delivery time is not stipulated.) and if the production period is NOT stipulated, and reasonable does apply, then WHAT is the definition of reasonable?

As for GK canceling reservations, I don't think it would be prudent to comment without having the FACTS. Seems strange that GK would be canceling reservations on an project he is trying to bring in. Did he get a chest full of gold from the Sultan of Trainsylvania, thereby eliminating the need for all his prior reservations? Did the folks who were canceled miss a mandatory payment? Hard to comment without knowing all the facts!

The only thing I know about Key is that the factory they used in Korea burned to the ground

Simon

mark s posted:

What perhaps we are witnessing is the withering of the O Scale brass market - - - not enough buyers to support highly detailed, expensive models.

The problem isn't a lack of buyers.   It's a lack of builders.  

As the far east continues to develop the number of people (or factories) who can build Kohs and Key quality models continues to dwindle. 

mark s posted:

I would agree, MWB. I have no interest in a model of a Big Boy, but interest in a batch of mid-sized and small steam locomotives. But given the aging-out of the interested buying population, the weakening of many folks economic condition, etc., I am not optimistic.

Hello Mark,

I feel your pain. The smaller to mid-size engines have always taken a back seat to the BIG stuff....and it seems it hasn't changed.

Simon

Lots of half truths and assumptions floating around here. 

All the CF's sold, including 3 extras (after 75) that were assembled from spare parts. These a last 3 models were sold as DC only as the DCC systems were consumed in the 1st 75 models. I don't attend shows so maybe the 3 someone saw were Dave's personal models. 

I bought a KEY CF and a KOH's Challenger and both are remarkable models. The KEY was every bit as nice in detail and came with some nice electronic upgrades that weren't available when the Challenger was built, plus it had other items modeled that had never been done on a production model.  It remains to be seen how the KOH's BB will turn out. 

I haven't ordered anything from KOH's since the Challenger, as his business model just doesn't suit me..........I will never tie up that amount of money again and hope for a delivery.  Losing a $300 deposit (KEY) for any reason is one thing....the possibility of losing thousands, makes no sense to me. To me, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Someone will be left holding the proverbial bag IMHO. And now, hearing deposits being forfeited without the buyers knowledge, is just incredible. 

The KEY factory burned down a few years ago, if you will remember, and considering Dave's age I have no idea if he will jump in again or not.  I know the KEY BB project is on hold. 

BH

Isn’t Key’s priority to deliver the CZ? I thought he was looking for a builder 

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Isn’t Key’s priority to deliver the CZ? I thought he was looking for a builder 

Better ask Dave DeVita that question!

Simon

Santiago: Key on his last trip to Asia said he found a builder for the CZ.

Kohs stated that he would post photos the BB as the builders was unable to ship it to him for the March Chicago O Scale Show. Has anyone seen any photos?

Funny, at the March Meet I was told that it had shipped but UPS had failed to deliver it to the hotel in time.............................................

But they managed to deliver a tender.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/.../march-meet-analysis

n.

Just info, there is a legal term for "reasonable time" when a contract is entered, (the deposit makes it a contract). If all concerned got together  a lawyer to represent those that have put deposits down which indicates there is a contract to deliver in a reasonable time the item contracted to delivered. A lawyer can take to court and also file for loss of interest that the clients would have received and sue for the  anguish caused by the unreasonable time period. The Lawyer may be willing to take as Fee the loss of interest and anguish suit filed. Something similar was and happened in Illinois on smaller sized semi-truck. Deposits were taken, after 5 years still no product, nor even a production start finish date given.  Lawyer won without ever going to court and just filing and forwarding letters addressing his representing each as a client and an agreed amount anguish settlement.

Limey: I was originally told that the BB had not arrived in time for the show. Then later I was told that he told the builder if it was going to delay the pilot model not to ship the model. He then told me he was going to post photos when he got back home. Did anyone go to the meet and greet that Kohs held. He told me it did NOT go that great.

I managed, along with my trusty contemporaries, to resist the temptation of the fine selection of bourbons mentioned and hearing the great man himself pontificate at length. Vacation time is precious and I'm more of a single malt man.  

n.

nw2124 posted:

MWB: I agree the Sunset N&W M 4-8-0's was spectacular, I bought 4 of them. Yet that model according to Scott would not have been made if it wasn't for the Strasburg offering.

 

I'd file that under smart business as I'm pretty sure those all sold out fast, and you even got your 4.  Hard to find one for sale now, too.  Maybe something to learn.

nw2124 posted:

Limey: I was originally told that the BB had not arrived in time for the show. Then later I was told that he told the builder if it was going to delay the pilot model not to ship the model. He then told me he was going to post photos when he got back home. Did anyone go to the meet and greet that Kohs held. He told me it did NOT go that great.

 

Well I haven't seen any photos of the finished model and now three and a half months have elapsed since the March Meet: I think we can kohs goodbye to any hope of seeing them this year.  

n.

I hate to see Kohs go by the wayside.  I guess I will count on someone else to do the rest of Kohs remaining list of models. Looks like those who have put their second deposit down are now out a lot more money as there is no proof of model in all these years. So much for the 3D way of doing things faster.  Have you lost any money?

Kohs keeps saying on his website that he has never failed to deliver a project. Well, there's a first time for everything. In the model manufacturing business, you can not rest on your laurels, because all that they show is that you have produced and delivered models in the past. It does not translate in any way that you will continue to do so. The one thing that he HAS failed to deliver is the truth.

George diSanti

Where the Tarheels rule!

hibar posted:

Its only been a little under 5 years and really no projected delivery date and with the extended time frame I would doubt the 6k is a guaranteed final price. For most of the buyers at this level of investment 3k is not a big deal for most of us the term "non refundable should be a "red flag" like the market states " past performance is no guarantee for future investments" just saying.

Yea that would be enough for me to back away.

Like the commercials for financial planning and management say in their disclaimer, “Past performance is no indication of future results.”

George diSanti posted:

Kohs keeps saying on his website that he has never failed to deliver a project. Well, there's a first time for everything. In the model manufacturing business, you can not rest on your laurels, because all that they show is that you have produced and delivered models in the past. It does not translate in any way that you will continue to do so. The one thing that he HAS failed to deliver is the truth.

George diSanti

Where the Tarheels rule!

Yep, those pesky Koreans should have shipped that along with the locomotive.  Perhaps it got lost between Incheon and Detroit.

nw2124 posted:

I hate to see Kohs go by the wayside.  I guess I will count on someone else to do the rest of Kohs remaining list of models. Looks like those who have put their second deposit down are now out a lot more money as there is no proof of model in all these years. So much for the 3D way of doing things faster.  Have you lost any money?

 

NW2124, - In answer to your question , no I bailed out and got a refund, I had completely lost faith in this project and its management, I had had enough of being misled and when the penny finally dropped that the locomotive had in fact not even been manufactured despite its appearance at the MM being promised on the importers site common sense told me to get out.  A shame as I would have been interested in the AC12 too. Glossy brochures and lame excuses no longer cut it for me. 

Interesting to note that another importer got a museum build quality locomotive from drawings to pre-production sample in 11 months. Punched rivets, scale tire profile, working leaf springs and opening smokebox door with interior detailing. 

n.

You should only put money down when the product arrives, why should I as as a customer invest in his or hers business. Do I get a profit share? I don't think so. 

Sorry if this not the way some of you do business but this is way we should do business. Let the importer put up his own money not mine. 

What happens if it is never delivered, oh well! No money out of my pocket but how about yours?

Dave

David: You obviously have no idea how the market has evolved over the years. Even as a dealer I would take a deposit if I did not know you. Down payments have been done this way by some dealers since the 70s.  It is very rare if a deposit is taken that a customers will not take the model. If an importer ask for a deposit you do get a return on your money!  Overland took deposits for the O Scale SD70SCes and the SD70Ms. The price was $2200.00 or if a model was left over after delivery date it would $2800.00 full. Putting a deposit avoided the importer from borrow form the bank and paying interest and having to charge a higher price. When deposits are taken ALL save$$$$$$.  I love saving $$$$.  I have never lost money doing business this way. It doesn't sound like you are well informed on the brass market or participate in the market. There are companies in the HO plastic market that take deposit also. This nothing NEW!!!!!

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

So is the actual pilot model built and not delivered, or does it not exist at all?

Seven years is quite a long time for a brass engine, regardless of how fine the model is. I do understand that there are lots of complications when building brass models, mostly because of the low demand for brass when compared to plastic. One is that it has become quite hard to find people who want to build these models. This is because of the fact that the younger generation of Koreans are more interested in working at tech factories.

There no evidence of a pilot model as we speak/as promised by the Importer. Rumors from my Friend in Texas is that the plans have not been approved. As the law requires that the model has to be in production or a refund is required in 30 Days. This has happened in the past as the person's lawyer did not even have to show up for court and won the case.

Hi George,

I've placed orders with Kohs 3 separate times and each time he delivered. Over the past 20 YEARS the same rumors almost exactly have come out that George won't deliver for each project. For all three projects that I bought into was the same rumors. It's bound to come true at some point. I mean, he's going to die some day. 

Prices shifting into the $6,000-$7,000 has gone out of my league but there are a good number of people out there who would not lose any sleep over that amount. For some people the chance at having the ultimate Big Boy made is worth more than watching the money in a checking account. 

What is interesting to me is that after all this time the same story comes around about the guy who get's in over his head over trains in Kohs league. Twenty plus years is not an exaggeration for this exact same tale, over and over again. And again. Once more, again. Again.

Chris said. "What is interesting to me is that after all this time the same story comes around about the guy who get's in over his head over trains in Kohs league. Twenty plus years is not an exaggeration for this exact same tale, over and over again. And again. Once more, again. Again".

Chris,

All American O scale is constantly under fire not just Kohs from all fronts, all the time I even whinge about it sometimes but as I said to my mate Bruce yesterday while both of us were working on the layout  "we are doers not talkers we get around these problems and solve things and just enjoy the scale and don't take risks with our money" pity some on the fringe don't take the same attitude know your place and achieve your dreams.  Roo.

Chris: This time the story is true. I know of several brass importers that have not delivered projects. Peco Brass is a name that comes to mind. Kohs has lied to a group of people at the March O Scale Show that the pilot model did not arrive in time. Then told several people that he would post photos the following Monday. Then we find out that no pilot model even exists. So why do you believe that this is not any different than past models being delivered by Kohs? The fact is seven years and nothing to show for his efforts. Now explain to me how you believe these are just rumors.

George diSanti

Where Tarheels rule

George, 

I have been in the hobby since the 60's and I have heard these same stories time after time. I understand the theory of down payments for small importers and I understand why they do it but I don't agree the hobby customers should. I never have in the past and never will in the future but for those that do, its your money.

I have missed a few items due to my stand but that is how I feel. When it arrives I inspect it, test it and if it passes, I pay for it, never before. 

Dave

I think I am with Christopher.  These are non-essential items - contract for one any way that makes you comfortable.  If you are comfortable with non-refundable deposits and no guarantee date, then why not?  Enjoy your life.

If you are like me, just stand back, watch, and applaud the state of the art.  I love Daylight Northerns, and really enjoy the Marsh pictures.  But I'd rather build my own.  

If you contract with Kohs or MMW for a large deposit, get your conditions in writing, and get it signed.  Easy.

George diSanti posted:

Chris: This time the story is true. I know of several brass importers that have not delivered projects. Peco Brass is a name that comes to mind.

Explain please, what that has to do with Kohs? Can't blame old GK for stuff other importers did or didn't do!

Kohs has lied to a group of people at the March O Scale Show that the pilot model did not arrive in time. Then told several people that he would post photos the following Monday. Then we find out that no pilot model even exists. So why do you believe that this is not any different than past models being delivered by Kohs?

Not a good way to do business, I agree, but the only likely things that assure the model will never show is if he passes on or goes out of business.

The fact is seven years and nothing to show for his efforts. Now explain to me how you believe these are just rumors.

You obviously didn't read this: 

10/28/14 - Good news........the production schedule for the remainder of this year and 2015 has been set........long story short, the reservation process for the Big Boy can now begin!

Better check your math, hasn't been 7 years yet.

George diSanti

Where Tarheels rule

If you are so sure the guy is in the wrong, why don't you take him to court?

Simon

Simon: I can see your point. Even at 5 years and still no production that was supposed to be set in 10/28/14 and a 3D process that was to be a quicker turnaround and nothing to show for that amount of time would worry me. What I don't understand why lie to a group of people at a major train show and say the pilot model didn't make it to the show, Then say he would post the photos of the pilot model the following week (as that is what he had told me also at the show). Then George finds out that a pilot model doesn't exist. This is not Kohs normal delivery schedule for a model. Other importers have not deliver projects, and looks to be George's first to follow that path. looking down the track, does anyone see a train coming yet?

After being mislead at the MM and prior to this event by utterances on the website I decided this was a project I wanted nothing more to do with. Buying a model should be an enjoyable experience, from a £200 0-6-0 to a $6000 BB. I don't expect the importer to be my best friend but I do like to establish relationships with those with whom I choose to do business:

I don't expect to be lied to and yes when I signed up I had signed up for the long haul. 

I inferred from this sorry state that the project had 'stalled' (?) for want of a better word and it was time to exit.

It has, additionally,  somewhat soured my perception of the US 0 scale scene.  It will be some years before I bother to visit the MM again, if at all. 

Why anyone would build up a world class brand and then seek to undermine it is beyond me - reputations are hard won and easily lost. 

The lack of any plausible explanation is also illuminating, draw your own inferences....................

Limey posted:

After being mislead at the MM and prior to this event by utterances on the website I decided this was a project I wanted nothing more to do with. Buying a model should be an enjoyable experience, from a £200 0-6-0 to a $6000 BB. I don't expect the importer to be my best friend but I do like to establish relationships with those with whom I choose to do business:

I don't expect to be lied to and yes when I signed up I had signed up for the long haul. 

I inferred from this sorry state that the project had 'stalled' (?) for want of a better word and it was time to exit.

It has, additionally,  somewhat soured my perception of the US 0 scale scene.  It will be some years before I bother to visit the MM again, if at all. 

Why anyone would build up a world class brand and then seek to undermine it is beyond me - reputations are hard won and easily lost. 

The lack of any plausible explanation is also illuminating, draw your own inferences....................

 

 

 

People need to really go back and  read the first 3 postings from GK regarding the BB. it took 7 years for te first 3 from GK and hear we are 2019 and still no Pilot model that is 17 years still nada.

Bob

6/16/09 - Our 'Big Boy' project has not been updated in quite some time. The demand has certainly been building as we have worked through other projects, but the time is drawing near to push ahead on the 'Big Boy. We are currently reevaluating all of our remaining previously announced projects to make a firm determination of what our production schedule will look like for the next 18-24 months and that will govern what we do with the this project.

As I have worked on the development of our Challenger project, the versions of the 'Big Boy' to do are more clearly defined now and that information will be posted in the very near future, but in the mean time, the version count does remain at six.

7/06/07 - Our 'Big Boy' project continues to move towards production, unfortunately, not as quickly as most would like! The order of production will most likely change in the near future based on the lack of progress in obtaining reference material for other planned projects. If you are waiting for this project be assured that it will definitely be produced, we have over three thousand drawings on hand and a complete set of builder's photos, so all is in order to move ahead when the time is right. Be thinking about the versions that we should produce and do not hesitate to let us know your thoughts on that subject. Stay tuned for further developments in the coming weeks.

4/3/02 - This project has a new position in our schedule. A further update will be posted in the next few days.

George D.,

Everything that has been said here about the Big Boy project not proceeding IS THE SAME as what was said about the CHALLENGER project and the PENNSYLVANIA caboose project. Probably worse things were said about those projects and both of those WERE IMPORTED eventually. Kohs actually rejected an entire lot of the Pennsy cabooses for quality issues and they were sold out from under him in a hotel room during a show. Sheeeesh! We've been led down this road before. When I was buying the Y6 engines back in the early 2000's THE SAME THINGS were also said. If you are a high end train buyer and were awake at any time for the past 20 years, you'd know how this train rolls. 

Since this has been the way of it for 20 years, I'd say sure 5 years is a long time, too long for my taste, and might be 1 year longer than the last project which was 1 year longer than the previous project. Considering the announcement date as the start of the clock in 0 scale IS LAUGHABLE though. But after hearing about every project that wouldn't  be imported for the past 20 years, and then watching the projects actually get imported, I'll take the comments with a grain of salt. Still, I don't envy those who have money tied up who are concerned if Kohs is going to get hit by a bus or something.

christopher N&W posted:

George D.,

Everything that has been said here about the Big Boy project not proceeding IS THE SAME as what was said about the CHALLENGER project and the PENNSYLVANIA caboose project. Probably worse things were said about those projects and both of those WERE IMPORTED eventually. Kohs actually rejected an entire lot of the Pennsy cabooses for quality issues and they were sold out from under him in a hotel room during a show. Sheeeesh! We've been led down this road before. When I was buying the Y6 engines back in the early 2000's THE SAME THINGS were also said. If you are a high end train buyer and were awake at any time for the past 20 years, you'd know how this train rolls. 

Since this has been the way of it for 20 years, I'd say sure 5 years is a long time, too long for my taste, and might be 1 year longer than the last project which was 1 year longer than the previous project. Considering the announcement date as the start of the clock in 0 scale IS LAUGHABLE though. But after hearing about every project that wouldn't  be imported for the past 20 years, and then watching the projects actually get imported, I'll take the comments with a grain of salt. Still, I don't envy those who have money tied up who are concerned if Kohs is going to get hit by a bus or something.

 

 

Your a trustworthy man and a patient man. Hope you'll stay young enough to enjoy it if it ever comes.

But taking someone's money for a project with no updates, or when promised project is completed or stages of the project. Then following with words that a pilot sample was late in coming with then promising pictures of the sample yet not following through with those that have put hard cash into a project that is decades old, is on the verge if not already "Fraud". Ask this simple question of any Lawyer. Reading these post and yes even posting my thoughts, I decided to call my neighbor who is a Lawyer and put all the facts for him down and even gave him this Forum to read and when he had time, call me on what his opinion was. Interesting. If your tired of waiting and want a refund for outlay, contact your Lawyer. Continuing discussions here, won't solve the problems. But you who have made a deposit, my sympathy.

Josef,

If people are sure Kohs won't deliver as he has in the past, then certainly they should go for the lawsuit.

On the other hand, he's delivered in the past under the same circumstances, lawsuit threats and doubt for 20 years. Lawsuits would torpedo the project with certain loss to investors and including demise of the project. Ask Butch. He rode it out last time with a lot of heartburn but eventually got a Challenger.

The merry-go-round will stop at some point. But after being told it would stop for the past 20 years, why would I necessarily believe it will stop right now without some uniquely new information from his doubters or uniquely new practices from Kohs himself? That is what I am looking for but have not seen anything new here that hasn't happened almost exactly the same in the past. So far, all I've seen is Kohs doing what Kohs does on Kohs time.

Christorpher: It is obvious you are not aware of what is going on with the BB project.You have forgotten that there has always been a sample model up front and early on in the previous projects. The sample should have been out for a few years by this time if "everything is exactly the same". The fact remains that he posted in Feb that there would be a COMPLETED sample on his table in March - there wasn't. He told everyone at the show that it was in transit and would be there Saturday night - it wasn't. He told everyone that there would be pictures of the locomotive on his website the week he returned - there wasn't. And to make matters worse, he posted photos of the tender PROVING that the locomotive isn't in his possession. Kohs is flat out LYING to people now - which is not EXACTLY THE SAME AS BEFORE.

christopher N&W posted:

Josef,

If people are sure Kohs won't deliver as he has in the past, then certainly they should go for the lawsuit.

On the other hand, he's delivered in the past under the same circumstances, lawsuit threats and doubt for 20 years. Lawsuits would torpedo the project with certain loss to investors and including demise of the project. Ask Butch. He rode it out last time with a lot of heartburn but eventually got a Challenger.

The merry-go-round will stop at some point. But after being told it would stop for the past 20 years, why would I necessarily believe it will stop right now without some uniquely new information from his doubters or uniquely new practices from Kohs himself? That is what I am looking for but have not seen anything new here that hasn't happened almost exactly the same in the past. So far, all I've seen is Kohs doing what Kohs does on Kohs time.

Josef:  The purpose of this discussion is to bring attention to those with deposits that  there is nothing to show for in all these years and that we are not being told the truth.  I wish this was not true, but it is what it is! A sad predicament to say the lease. No rumors here just the truth of the current affairs with Kohs. 

Regardless of what happens to the BB project, we're getting a bumper crop of whine!

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

Regardless of what happens to the BB project, we're getting a bumper crop of whine!

Simon

And has it accomplished anything? 

Has there been a explosion of cheques in the mail returning deposits ?

After being kept in the dark so long can anyone see the light?

Doubt it on all counts. My opinion.  Roo. (American O scaler for 35 years)

Roo posted:

Simon Winter posted:

Regardless of what happens to the BB project, we're getting a bumper crop of whine!

Simon

And has it accomplished anything? 

Has there been a explosion of cheques in the mail returning deposits ?

After being kept in the dark so long can anyone see the light?

Doubt it on all counts. My opinion.  Roo. (American O scaler for 35 years)

Probably no cubed, but it is entertainment for the masses,

Sad that you guys think BB reservation holders finding out that the project is not coming to fruition as entertainment and whining.  I do not find deposit holders' anguish as entertaining or whining.  It's sad that you guys laugh at others' expense.  All I can say is shame on you.

George diSanti

Where Tarheels rule!

Well Said George!  It is SAD that others can find entertainment when misfortune happens. There will always be a few that  find it amusing at others expense.

I had herd that there was a dentist who did all of GK dental work and Gk paid him in 3 N&W Y6B models, for the work back when they were imported. Now this person seems to act like it is OK to get screwed and Bent over, judged  By his postings. And defends him GK  when this issue comes up. It is simple people need to Sue his *** to get there money back with interest. GK is 65+ years so how long will you wait , another 17 years.

Bob

Roo posted:

Simon Winter posted:

Regardless of what happens to the BB project, we're getting a bumper crop of whine!

Simon

And has it accomplished anything? 

Has there been a explosion of cheques in the mail returning deposits ?

After being kept in the dark so long can anyone see the light?

Doubt it on all counts. My opinion.  Roo. (American O scaler for 35 years)

Yes Roo it has accomplished one thing:

Sunlight is a powerful disinfectant - it's going to make it very difficult to pull this stunt off again as its now very much in the public domain. 

You and Bruce can discuss this at your leisure over the barbie  - The power of social media in scales 1.43.5 - 1.48.

Opinion :-)

Limey posted:

Roo posted:

Simon Winter posted:

Regardless of what happens to the BB project, we're getting a bumper crop of whine!

Simon

And has it accomplished anything? 

Has there been a explosion of cheques in the mail returning deposits ?

After being kept in the dark so long can anyone see the light?

Doubt it on all counts. My opinion.  Roo. (American O scaler for 35 years)

Yes Roo it has accomplished one thing:

Sunlight is a powerful disinfectant - it's going to make it very difficult to pull this stunt off again as its now very much in the public domain. 

You and Bruce can discuss this at your leisure over the barbie  - The power of social media in scales 1.43.5 - 1.48.

Opinion :-)

 

 

 

Well lets hope so nobody like to lose money even worse when they know where they lost it and can't get it back. Bruce and myself discuss lots of subjects over the kitchen table with our sandwiches but this is not one of them.

Based on the numerous grammatical errors appearing on this thread in the last 24 hours, I’d say most of you had a great holiday.  😁 

As for the sentiment expressed by a previous poster suggesting that the GK BB situation won’t happen again, I strongly disagree.  While a few may learn, the obsessive compulsive need to acquire more of these models combined with the power of the written word by someone who is an expert at propagating his own self-indulgent tripe, is a recipe for this scenario to be repeated over and over again.  

PRR 5841 posted:

Based on the numerous grammatical errors appearing on this thread in the last 24 hours, I’d say most of you had a great holiday.  😁 

As for the sentiment expressed by a previous poster suggesting that the GK BB situation won’t happen again, I strongly disagree.  While a few may learn, the obsessive compulsive need to acquire more of these models combined with the power of the written word by someone who is an expert at propagating his own self-indulgent tripe, is a recipe for this scenario to be repeated over and over again.  

You used the word tripe, I was originally going to use this word to describe the outpourings of the finest but hesitated as I was not sure it was a word in use in the US. My grandmother used it when still alive, I am not sure how she would have described this crock, as she didn't resort to expletives. My whole arsenal of expletives would be inadequate to describe the whole sorry saga.  What does amuse me though is that a certain someone is sitting up there in MI seething at what is being written here. 

In relation to the sentiment  I hope you are wrong for the sake of the hobby..........................

n.

Did all of the people griping on this thread follow any of the hay that was made during the Challenger and Pennsylvania caboose projects a few years ago? Or are all of you newbies to this stuff? If you were awake at any point during those episodes, you'd know that people were accusing Kohs of lying right and left. So no, I don't really see this as being much different. 

My guess would be that if you've been into 0 scale for a while, into high end trains and are following the Big Boy, then you followed the Challenger project. Did you guys buy Challengers, too?

From the posters here, some of this looks contrived, similarly to the onslaught of scare tactics during other Kohs projects when the projects came through, NOT fell through. 

At some point you guys will be right but the past 20, Kohs seems to have followed through eventually against some serious doubt.

I'm going to need a little more evidence of his demise.

Bob Harris posted:

I had herd that there was a dentist who did all of GK dental work and Gk paid him in 3 N&W Y6B models, for the work back when they were imported. Now this person seems to act like it is OK to get screwed and Bent over, judged  By his postings. And defends him GK  when this issue comes up. 

Really? I think I know who you are referring to, but I've rarely seen this doctor post anything. Where does he post his defense of Kohs?

christopher N&W posted:

Did all of the people griping on this thread follow any of the hay that was made during the Challenger and Pennsylvania caboose projects a few years ago? Or are all of you newbies to this stuff? If you were awake at any point during those episodes, you'd know that people were accusing Kohs of lying right and left. So no, I don't really see this as being much different. 

My guess would be that if you've been into 0 scale for a while, into high end trains and are following the Big Boy, then you followed the Challenger project. Did you guys buy Challengers, too?

From the posters here, some of this looks contrived, similarly to the onslaught of scare tactics during other Kohs projects when the projects came through, NOT fell through. 

At some point you guys will be right but the past 20, Kohs seems to have followed through eventually against some serious doubt.

I'm going to need a little more evidence of his demise.

 

Are you suggesting that because this situation having transpired before, those currently involved and aware of previous unpleasantries have no right to complain as they should have known better?

Chris: I have been a long time Kohs buyer of many of his projects with buying several variation of those projects. You have only bought a limited number of his projects. You Absolutely do not know what is going on! Have you gotten private emails on the many projects you have not purchased? You apparently do not have your glasses on (maybe you need magnifiers) to see the evidence in front of your nose. A blind cat can see that this is not the same as any other time! For those that have Dollars at stake and have already got a lawyer know the truth that this time it is much different. No one is complaining, but trying to inform others that do not know what is "NOT" happening. Fives years plus and counting and NADA is not the same as any other project. I do not know why you are stuck on the Challenger project. Get real, as those that are involved with this project know better. 

Kohs has been updating his rolling stock projects stating that he will soon be taking reservation/deposits. I was just wondering how many will put down deposits on the next projects when a pilot model for the BB does not exist . 

nw2124 posted:

Chris: I have been a long time Kohs buyer of many of his projects with buying several variation of those projects. You have only bought a limited number of his projects. You Absolutely do not know what is going on! Have you gotten private emails on the many projects you have not purchased? You apparently do not have your glasses on (maybe you need magnifiers) to see the evidence in front of your nose. A blind cat can see that this is not the same as any other time! For those that have Dollars at stake and have already got a lawyer know the truth that this time it is much different. No one is complaining, but trying to inform others that do not know what is "NOT" happening. Fives years plus and counting and NADA is not the same as any other project. I do not know why you are stuck on the Challenger project. Get real, as those that are involved with this project know better. 

I’d address you by your first name as you have addressed me by mine but apparently your preference is to HIDE behind a screen name.

1. You don’t know anything about my involvement in this hobby.  

2. You don’t know anything about my collection.

3. You don’t know anything about my previous transactions with Kohs.

4. I’m not “Stuck” on Kohs Challenger or anything else from Kohs.

5. If “No one is complaining” then why are some hiring lawyers?

6. Please don’t drink and type here again!  🤣🤣🤣

Chris

nw2124 posted:

Kohs has been updating his rolling stock projects stating that he will soon be taking reservation/deposits. I was just wondering how many will put down deposits on the next projects when a pilot model for the BB does not exist . 

I'd surely be interested in PFE and FGEX reefers.  

I'm very interested in seeing a sample of the work product of whatever builder is now building his rolling stock. 

PRR 5841 posted:

nw2124 posted:

Chris: I have been a long time Kohs buyer of many of his projects with buying several variation of those projects. You have only bought a limited number of his projects. You Absolutely do not know what is going on! Have you gotten private emails on the many projects you have not purchased? You apparently do not have your glasses on (maybe you need magnifiers) to see the evidence in front of your nose. A blind cat can see that this is not the same as any other time! For those that have Dollars at stake and have already got a lawyer know the truth that this time it is much different. No one is complaining, but trying to inform others that do not know what is "NOT" happening. Fives years plus and counting and NADA is not the same as any other project. I do not know why you are stuck on the Challenger project. Get real, as those that are involved with this project know better. 

I’d address you by your first name as you have addressed me by mine but apparently your preference is to HIDE behind a screen name.

1. You don’t know anything about my involvement in this hobby.  

2. You don’t know anything about my collection.

3. You don’t know anything about my previous transactions with Kohs.

4. I’m not “Stuck” on Kohs Challenger or anything else from Kohs.

5. If “No one is complaining” then why are some hiring lawyers?

6. Please don’t drink and type here again!  🤣🤣🤣

Chris

 

 

 

PRR 5841,

I think you are confused about who you are responding to. I'm not NW2124 who is Stephen. Stephen is on your side responding to me. I'm Chris and apparently you are Chris, also? Please don't type while you are confused.

At any rate, heck yes, long timers in the know should have known better.

I feel for the guys with deposits at risk. Like I said earlier, if you are sure the project is dead, then sue. But I think that'll kill the Big Boy project altogether and loss of investment for all involved.

Until it happens, I'll still hold out that the project will go on. I was convinced by the doubters last time that the Challenger project and the Pennsy caboose projects were dead. I was very surprised and amazed to hear that they were imported after all the commentary and threats beforehand.

As my old Daddy used to say, don't believe anything you hear and about half of what you see and you'll do OK! He made it to nearly 94.

Too much innuendo and bad grammar, and spelling, and people being plain hateful, and lynch mob mentality.

Simon

OK...this discussion has gotten ugly....has been getting worse over time and at this point as far as OGR is concerned, has no place on this forum.  There are personal remarks here that are against our TOS.  The topic is closed...  Take up your concerns and legal issues with the proper folks and leave the discussion privately via email....don't do it here!