US vs China Which do you prefer prewar or modern?

Personally, the newer trains, but I don't much care where they are made.

However, I enjoy ALL toy trains, and respect the right of others to choose whatever they most enjoy. As far as I am concerned, the concept of this-"versus"-that really has no place in this or any other hobby. A hobby is, above all, an individual pursuit.

Interesting question. I have appreciated pre war Hornby O gauge for many years and owned a commendable collection in the past. Today however, I run exclusively the modern coarse scale O Gauge by ACE & Darstaed. There is something special about them all. But there is a however.
I know just how silently smooth a well cared for and suitably lubricated Hornby train of some 80yrs of age can still run. Its gears were cut in Britain to a standard that other makers still struggle to match. That 80yr old locomotive, be it clockwork or the later electric versions is still perfectly capable of doing today what it was made to do all those years ago. Will a modern day model running on gearing made in China still be as capable in 80yrs time? I'd like to say 'yes', but knowing how fragile many 'made in China' products prove to be, I suspect not. It will nevertheless still look just as marvelous in the display case (I hope), although I'll not be around to care!

Dave Upton

Dear ARKWRIGHT and Allan,



I was leaning towards those ancient untouched and well worn trains filled with memories that looked like they had seen better days. I can't get over imagining a boy or boys having fun with them and all the collective memories that they must contain passed down through three or four generations.

That is what I truly love about this hobby the ability to look at an object and remember with fondness my youth and remember the good times with my Dad.

Mike

Does this thread ever end well?


Old all the way. I don't support communism.

Now there is a rip-roarin' STILLERS fan if I ever saw one

Mike, this is the oldest debate in the tinplate forum and the lines are sharply divided. Search back through, you'll find a lot in pages past.

As for me, I've collected and operated tinplate since 1974, everybody here knows my opinion - original equipment only unless original equipment is not available - such as in rare cases with Boucher, Voltamp, Carlisle & Finch, and products like that.

Half the charm of tinplate is the wonder and the history of it. New trains have no wonder or history, they're just new. For what it's worth, stick with originals, oddly enough they're cheaper in most cases, they're easy to work on, and they'll run forever. Ask yourself, if Cobra kit cars were more expensive than original Cobras, would anybody buy the kit car? And which would be the better long-term investment? I don't see any difference here.

Have fun, that's the bottom line.

I believe Allan says it all. Enough said.

Tim

Well, I was in O gauge trains for years and packed it all in for the usual reasons (life intruded, etc). Wandered into a train store about 2 years ago and the new MTH/Lionel tinplate offerings caught my eye and just pulled me back. Bought a set, started a new layout, and have been at it ever since. So in that respect it's the newer stuff I enjoy.

However, I've been totally impressed and intrigued by the posts here with folks who have the older trains that they restore, handle with care, and manage to keep going. I have no doubt I'll end up dipping my foot into that pool eventually. And I'll have questions!

Some of us prefer to play with a new Buzz Lightyear and others prefer old Cowboy Woody. There's plenty of room in a toy box for either or both!

For the life of me I can't understand why any true train hobbyist could not enjoy both the original pre-war trains as well as their modern reproductions. The originals have that magnificent patina of age, the pungent aroma of ozone and all of the history which enshrouds them while the modern reproductions are shiny, spiffy and have great sound packages. What in the world is there not to like in each of their eras? We have the golden opportunity to enjoy the best of both worlds.

Mike,
I prefer the originals for what they stand for. I've been enjoying prewar Std. & O-Gauge since 1959. Sure the new reproductions are nice to look at with their perfect paint and perfectly plated pieces. They do not compare to the originals.
To each their own in this hobby. Follow your heart, only then will you find the answer you're looking for.
God's Blessings.

quote:

Does this thread ever end well?

No, it doesn't.

If I am spending money, then it's on originals, unless it is a piece that I will either never find or never be able to afford in its original form. So far, I've figured out a way to afford originals in what I want, but do have a reproduction red comet, which falls in the "I can't find a decent one" category.

I buy only New Tinplate,I like it bright and I want it to have all its paint. I do have a few old pieces but 99% is Repro.But I like all trains. What you have and like is fine with me. This is a great hobby enjoy the trains. To me Who Cares where they are made I am just having fun with them. Thats what is is all about.

My first trains were post war Japanese tinplate, they still run 50 something years later. But, I love the modern tinplate, particularly Darstaed, that's why I'm now selling it. My 2-6-2 Great Western Railway, is a triumph in tinplate beauty, my Darstaed Pullmans are so beautifully made and detailed (I know that might sound silly) that my MTH Brown Chapelon is perfect pulling them. Like others have said, I like 'em all, but to be able to mix the finest MTH Premier locos with tinplate locos and coaches is a wonderful thing.
This Dave Upton pic goes some way to show the beauty of my favourite modern tinplate loco.

quote:

I don't think collectors of originals have any malice for new trains. Preferences are individual, and in this arena, the preferences are very strong.

As one who is fairly new to tinplate, I like both the old and the new. I especially like to collect old Marx and the new tinplate offerings from MTH/LCT. I have two layouts, one with DCS for the new and a conventional one for my old tinplate and enjoy running them both depending on my mood.

IMO some of the purists on this forum do seem to have some contempt at times for the new stuff. It might only be their passion for the old and maybe I am misreading them.

However the Tinplate Forum is generally a more tolerant type of Forum than some of the others with the Lionel/MTH battles etc.

As others have said, the most important thing is to enjoy the hobby in the way that you see fit.

Gentlemen,
I have them both and am greatful for my originals and my MTH Repros, the DCS stuff is just great,
always wanted a remote control 263E when I was a kid, now I have one thanks to MTH. Further I do not collect my Trains for their resale value, one of my hobbies is engineering nice layouts, it keeps my childhood memories alive.
However it does make a great deal of difference to me where they are being made, the Red Chineese
military controlling the VC in Viet Nam, they tried to kill me for over 3 years, I hate feeding these Commies by having our Trains being built by them, wish MTH would build here in the USA. I know its a business money profit thing, but it does not mean I have to like it.
PCRR/Dave

My Fathers SeaBee Coffee Cup is on every layout I Engineer and construct,
the monitary value of my original and Reproduction Tin Plate means virtually nothing to me.

Jsrfo observes:

quote:

"For me, the nicks and scratches and dulled down patina of the paint of originals are all stories of when the train was a kids toy. Modern tinplate will never have that kind of history to it. Adults buy it and play with it, so no there is no memory of the joy that a kid had by running his tinplate train at top speed until it came off the track in a corner. Oops, there's a scratch. Back on the track and the scratch is forgotten. Adults just get irritated when their new stuff gets a ding."

I, as a father of a young hobbiest, see it different...
My son is living those stories -making that history.

Gary,
You are a lucky man sir, I would give anything in the world to have a son
to pass my Trains on too, cherish what you have sir, the heck with the dings they mean absolutely nothing. In fact the scratch I put on my fathers original Lionel 263E were some of my fathers fondest memories, they are now mine also.
PCRR/Dave

quote:

Originally posted by The Nighthawk:
Does this thread ever end well?


Old all the way. I don't support communism.

Hey nighthawk do you have a TV, computer, camera, Ipad, etc. etc. Guess where they are made? Get a clue---Mostly China.
Who in the heck here supports communism? That kind of statement just shows your ignorance on how the world operates today. I don't really care where the trains are made, yea i do wish they were made in the good old USA but they are not. Get used to it and come into the 21st century.

Dave

PCRR/Dave

Thanks!

I posted my response last night (I like 'em both!), but it got me thinking about an old saying from the late Justin Wilson, also known as the Cajun Cook.

On his old cooking shows he liked to add plenty of wine to his recipes and he always said, "Drink what you like and like what you drink!"

So, for tinplate trains: "Run what you like and like what you run!"

I don't think this is the place to get into a back and forth on the political implications of the modern global manufacturing economy. Maybe we could just let that go?

As for the trains themselves, I'm still new to all this but am lodging myself squarely in the "enjoy them both" camp. Obviously some pieces (like Dorfan steamers) are essentially impossible to obtain in original form. But what I find interesting is that some pieces are more attractive to me as repros and others as originals, even when they're reasonably available both ways.

For example, I'm not an enormous Blue Comet fan - a set would be at least a few notches down my list. However, if I were to buy a set it would absolutely be an original. Something about the over-the-top design, recognizing just how enormous (and expensive) such a "toy" was over 80 years ago makes originality much more valuable to me in that case. Scratches or touch-ups wouldn't detract from that at all to me, nor would the lack of a full sound system.

On the other hand, I'm eagerly awaiting the release of the repro Brass Piper. Something about the magnificence of the engine's trim and the beautiful lines of the freight cars makes me want to see it in shiny, modern glory. I don't want an old, dinged-up one with character. And if I'm going to buy a totally restored and repainted one, I feel like I might as well get one with modern internals.

So for me it depends on the piece. But I certainly understand other folks having consistent preferences one way or the other. It's a hobby - buy what makes you happy.

quote:

Posted January 21, 2012 01:44 PM Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by The Nighthawk:
Does this thread ever end well?


Old all the way. I don't support communism.



Hey nighthawk do you have a TV, computer, camera, Ipad, etc. etc. Guess where they are made? Get a clue---Mostly China.
Who in the heck here supports communism? That kind of statement just shows your ignorance on how the world operates today. I don't really care where the trains are made, yea i do wish they were made in the good old USA but they are not. Get used to it and come into the 21st century.

Dave

I must have pushed a button.....We have no choice in the above markets, but i do in trains, so welcome to the 21st century!

I do prefer old fashioned made in USA quality, and it is nice to be able to repair my own trains instead of sending them back to China.

Be nice, i am entitled to my opinion just as you are yours!!!

Gary,

Point taken. I am glad to see that you are instilling memories that only running a train can bring. I see a kid, train, and transformer. Good memories and imagination building. I do applaud for letting him run the train at a young age.

What I am trying to state is that by and large, the modern tinplate owner/operators are adults. I understand that these operators probably do allow children to run their tin plate, but I seriously doubt that it is in a completely unsupervised setting, meaning that the train is truly a child's toy, in all but the most rare cases.

The original trains were generally considered toys to last a lifetime, but they were toys, placed in the hands of kids, not toys used by kids under supervision. To me, that's part of the allure. To see something like that still bringing fun some 80 years later.

As I've stated before, trains are and always have been expensive toys. People saved for a long time in order to buy one for their kids. In my case, my grandfather gave me a train that was probably a half of a month's pay when I was 5, and I did what I wanted to with it. No one watched that it was treated with respect, etc. It's a bit battered, but that's all the good stuff I am talking about.

There is a difference between modern and original, but it has little to nothing to do with the train part of it, but more to do with the history behind it. As I said, I commend you for building your history. That moment in the picture will be remembered by your son probably for a lifetime.

Being very new to Tinplate, I can tell you that I bought the new stuff because it is clean, works and the PS2/PS3 electronics allow for a great amount of control. I got rid of some AF to help pay for it just because it ran too fast.

but....both old and new make me smile!

The other side of the coin.....

I would never ride a 1948 panhead reproduction....no soul.

Dave

quote:

The other side of the coin.....

I would never ride a 1948 panhead reproduction....no soul.

To me they are the same.

Whats the difference?

First, it's ALL good!

I have settled on the MTH repros for several reasons that are valid for me:

1. Being somewhat obsessive-compulsive, I prefer shiny, new, and without-scratches trains and accessories.

2. I can afford them: The high-end items that I desire are especially reasonably priced compared to the originals in pristine condition.

3. Repros afford one a choice of traditional or contemporary motive power.

I DO appreciate those who collect and restore, but it is just not my approach.

Jsrfo. Thanks! He's a real good kid and loves tinplate toy trains!

quote:

PS2/PS3 electronics allow for a great amount of control. I got rid of some AF to help pay for it just because it ran too fast.

Good point. For operating, they are hard to beat. I love to run my steamers at about 5 scale MPH, listen to the chuffing and watch the smoke.
On the other hand, my Marx trains are fun in their own way. No neutral, just run 'em fast.
I enjoy them all or I wouldn't have spent the amount of money that I have.

This is probably the most unresolvable and contentious topic that appears in this forum.

I'm pretty sure that we'll be talking about this another 100 times, but the end will always be the same. And, in the end, it really doesn't matter too much, does it?

What attracts modern tinplate users to modern tinplate, the shiny paint, fancy electronics, newness, etc, are the exact same things that collectors of originals really dislike.

I'm sure there's a converse to that statement, but at least to me, it appears that the original guys, like myself, are a little more hard core than the modern guys.

I'm guessing that we're all pretty much set in our ways of thinking, and I doubt any argument on one side of this discussion is going to change the opinions of those on the other side.

Hey, remember, there are folks out there that think all of this is just crazy.

quote:

I'm pretty sure that we'll be talking about this another 100 times, but the end will always be the same. And, in the end, it really doesn't matter too much, does it?

Doesn't matter at all, let alone too much.

quote:

Hey, remember, there are folks out there that think all of this is just crazy.

So very, very true! And to a point, they are absolutely right.

quote:

Originally posted by King Mouse:
I got rid of some AF to help pay for it just because it ran too fast.
Dave

Too Fast???? No such thing.

There is NO FEELING like seeing the rods flash by at near lightspeed just before the Lionel 259e punches through the drywall at the end of the curve.



As an originalist here, I heartily agree with jsrfo's post(s) And would never hold anything against anyone here for collecting new or newer Tin. I prefer the old unless it is a "never find one in good enough condition" situation. Then the new slides right in... especially if it is "traditionally" operated, no sound needed IMO (but that is just me).

Lastly, this thread is about as non-contentious as I have seen on this topic. I was expecting a bomb drop or two....Well played gents!

I have and like both. I used to not care for the electronics but my new blue comet is very nice, love the smoke and speed control, but am not selling the original.

quote:

For me, the nicks and scratches and dulled down patina of the paint of originals are all stories of when the train was a kids toy. Modern tinplate will never have that kind of history to it. Adults buy it and play with it, so no there is no memory of the joy that a kid had by running his tinplate train at top speed until it came off the track in a corner. Oops, there's a scratch. Back on the track and the scratch is forgotten. Adults just get irritated when their new stuff gets a ding.

I agree. This statement also explains the reason I have no interest in restored items.

Trains is trains. I like them all, even the funny-looking foreign ones.

quote:

Lastly, this thread is about as non-contentious as I have seen on this topic. I was expecting a bomb drop or two....Well played gents!

It is good to see respect. The group I hang with in Greenville PA just loves trains. We travel to different layouts and it does not matter if the person has tinplate, AF, post war Lionel or new MTH, we just love seeing trains! We even go to a guys house that has HO.


Dave

It's nice to have good looking and good running repros for our club (Standard Gauge Module Association) to use on our outings. Sure I like to bring some of my originals and let them stretch their legs on the long layouts, but I wouldn't want them running all day long. I also have a resident reproduction set on one loop of my home layout, an MTH 384E Blue Comet set, to run because I enjoy the tons of smoke and the sound effects. Why not enjoy collecting originals and running both originals and modern electric tinplate trains?

quote:

Originally posted by Nachtjager:
Half the charm of tinplate is the wonder and the history of it. New trains have no wonder or history, they're just new.

I don't have anything to add to that. Nachtjager has summed it up for me.

Gentlemen,
Because I was lucky enough to have a Father who actually worked in the Railroad industry at the Union Switch & Signal, my view of model railroading might be a little different than other peoples. The picture of Gary's boy running his
Tin Plate Train, is what model railroading is all about, the memories he will build and the engineering skills he will acquire from enjoying what his father and he have shared, will last a life. I am greatful my Grandfather was the engineer that he was, and shared his incredible engineering talent with my father. One of my most vivid memories as a young 10 year old boy, was sneaking down stair on Christmas eve, and finding my father out cold on the coach, after decorating the Christmas Tree, and working 14 hours that day, then watching my Grandfather, Santa Hat and all, building my 263E train layout under the Christmas Tree, so that my Chrsitmas would be special for my father and me. Times were tough when I was a little boy, we did not get a lot of Christmas presents, however I got the greatest one of all, and it was wrapped in a Tin Plate Train memory, that will never fade away. My Grandfather finally noticed me sitting at the bottom of the stairs, picked me up and took me back up to my bedroom. On the way up the stairs I hugged his neck, I knew my Grandpa was really Santa Claus. To this day he still is, and the train still runs.
The picture of Gary's boy running his Tin Plate Train, and building his memories
is what model railroading is really all about, at least to me.
PCRR/Dave

The original 263E Work Train & GG1 Pa setting face to face.


The MTH P2 263E with modern MTH Rolling stock, under the latest Christmas Tree.