Use of term "forestall"

Tommy posted:

Was use of this term mandatory by engineers when signals were called? Was this true on all railroads?

The term "forestall" was used by EMC/EMD for "forestalling" forward transition, i.e. the Engineer could place a switch in to the "Series Forestalling" position. I NEVER heard the term used related to signals.

At bottom, "to forestall" means to prevent or to delay, as in to STALL an event or movement beFORE it happens.

In railroad signal terms it was a device (button/switch) that allowed and engineer to prevent an automatic brake application, that is to forestall the application.  I remember reading about this in the DOT archives of railroad accidents.  Based on that, forestalling an automatic brake application did not always end well.  I could see where it might be needed to get a locomotive passed a automatic stop to couple to back of another train.

Danr posted:

In railroad signal terms it was a device (button/switch) that allowed and engineer to prevent an automatic brake application, that is to forestall the application.  I remember reading about this in the DOT archives of railroad accidents.  Based on that, forestalling an automatic brake application did not always end well.  I could see where it might be needed to get a locomotive passed a automatic stop to couple to back of another train.

In the cab signal, ATS, and ATC territories that I've been over, the term used was to "acknowledge" any restrictive signal indication, i.e. the Engineer operates the "acknowledger" button/lever. By "acknowledging", a penalty brake application is thus prevented. Even in all the various cab signal, ATS, and ATC territories that I've been over, I still never heard the term "forestall".

The term is used in a 1928 film of a ride in the cab of a New York Central locomotive. The engineer repeats the signal provided by the fireman and adds the word "forestall" after each signal is called.

You can read about forestalling on the NYC on Hobo Nickel site.

"the system required that the engineer operate the lever (ie. forestall) when passing each signal to prevent air brake automatic application"

http://www.hobonickels.org/combs02.htm

 

 

Thanx. I guess the use of the term after passing each signal was unique to the New York Central.

Hot Water posted:

Danr posted:

In railroad signal terms it was a device (button/switch) that allowed and engineer to prevent an automatic brake application, that is to forestall the application.  I remember reading about this in the DOT archives of railroad accidents.  Based on that, forestalling an automatic brake application did not always end well.  I could see where it might be needed to get a locomotive passed a automatic stop to couple to back of another train.

In the cab signal, ATS, and ATC territories that I've been over, the term used was to "acknowledge" any restrictive signal indication, i.e. the Engineer operates the "acknowledger" button/lever. By "acknowledging", a penalty brake application is thus prevented. Even in all the various cab signal, ATS, and ATC territories that I've been over, I still never heard the term "forestall".

Exactly.

The youtube video is titled "Cab ride in New York Central Hudson 5213 - 1928" And after the fireman calls every signal, the engineer repeats the words, adding the term "forestall"

Example:

Fireman: "yellow over green"

Engineer: "yellow over green, forestall!"

 

Tommy posted:

The term is used in a 1928 film of a ride in the cab of a New York Central locomotive. The engineer repeats the signal provided by the fireman and adds the word "forestall" after each signal is called.

There is an old NYC-produced information film called "The Railroad Signal" that mentions the term "forestall" in the context of an engineer acknowledging a wayside signal that is not green on a high speed train with the train control safety equipment used in the 1940s.  You can see this on Youtube.  Go to about 8 minutes into the video and you will see the term used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygt3ktpmQyE

Scott Griggs

Louisville, KY

Tommy posted:

Thanx. I guess the use of the term after passing each signal was unique to the New York Central.

Not according to the additional information in subsequent posts.

With ATS, any - absolutely every - signal other than Clear (green, or green over red aspect) must be acknowledged by activating a lever or a button on the ATS equipment.

So yellow over green must be acknowledged to the ATS equipment, which forestalls a penalty application (full service, not emergency).  With older equipment, such as used before Amtrak, a gong sounded or a light flashed, to indicate that acknowledgment was successful.  A steam engine working hard may have been too noisy for the Fireman to reliably hear the gong or not set up so that he could see the visual indication.  Therefore, that probably drove the practice of the Engineer calling "Forestalled".

Thanx SGRIGGSs, for the link to the NYC signaling film. And to NUMBER90.