Vision Bigboy - quality control issue - be careful

That’s definitely crazy. I’d suspect those screws never got torqued. mine was the same I’ve been greasing brand new locomotives for the past few years

There are like 3-4 running threads on the troubles of this new beautiful engine.   Mine included.  Hopefully that's all it is.   Watch my video and listen to my squeal.

Send these pictures to Lionel along with any videos that you make.

Hopefully someone from Lionel monitors this forum?

In any case, I would strongly recommend anyone with the new Vision Bigboy engine inspect and tighten the screws (with a bit of thread lock) on the two gear box covers (2 screws on each cover).  And while you are at it, make sure there is enough grease on the gears (there was very little on mine).  Even if your engine is running well now, those screws may not be tight enough, and good luck finding them if they fall out while you are running the engine.  I was lucky to find them in the box while unboxing the engine.

These screws are critical components.  They hold the cover, which presses the gear on the wheel into the worm gear of the drive shaft.  If the cover is not pressed in completely, the gear teeth can slip and may eventually wear out completely.

Sorry to hear this, and yet everyone still lines up to fork over top dollar.  Next time such a VL product is offered, if the take rate were very low, that would send the required message.  But instead people keep buying the stuff and then some will even compliment Lionel on the fast turnaround.  Product in this relative price range should not have these issues, period end of story.

Good luck to the original poster getting it fixed.  Hopefully this is the only issue.

Do not put thread locker on those screws!!……that bottom cover is the only access for servicing. If you strip the heads because they’re loctited in, it’s curtains! …

Pat

This is now the #1 thing I do when I get a new Lionel engine.  I check all the screws on the bottom of the engine and tender before it hits the track.  I have never done that in the past.  The last 3 engines all had screws falling out.  Not sure what's going on the with all the lose screws.  Yours is an extreme case where all 4 fell out before you even pulled it out of the box!  Hopefully everything else works ok.

This is not a criticism of you guys one bit. But the truth is until you stop lining up to buy these expensive engines Lionel will not change.

I am happy to report that after reattaching the gear covers, everything works well.

I ran the engine with no sound for about 10 minutes - it ran smoothly, no unexpected mechanical noise.  All the lights and smoke units work well.  Turned the sound back on - it sounds great.  One small nit, I have the 4024 and some of the announcements sounds like "4044".

I don't think there is any fundamental design issue with the engine - just manufacturing quality control.  If Lionel is a smart business, they would put more effort into quality control with their supplier.  It will save them the service cost and improve their customer satisfaction.

I can protest and not buy the engine, but then I don't get to enjoy this beautiful engine either.

The grease problem has been happening for years now.  If QC can't solve that, then I wouldn't hold out much hope for tightening all the screws.

@Ray Lombardo posted:

Sorry to hear this, and yet everyone still lines up to fork over top dollar.  Next time such a VL product is offered, if the take rate were very low, that would send the required message.  But instead people keep buying the stuff and then some will even compliment Lionel on the fast turnaround.  Product in this relative price range should not have these issues, period end of story.

@ThatGuy posted:

... But the truth is until you stop lining up to buy these expensive engines Lionel will not change.

I hear ya, but ...

It's never  gonna happen.

In case it's not obvious the overwhelming majority of us are deep-dive tinkerers.   By definition we'd rather suck it up, fix it, and then get on with it.  I can only emphasize the importance of this by reusing your phrase: Period end of story.

BTW -- I truly feel sorry for those who are not, but this hobby has always been about tinkering, whether it's trying out  alternative layouts, modifying rolling stock, kitbashing locomotives, cobbling together several structures to make one, machining a new motor mount, refurbishing or replacing e-units, or most recently electronics, or even writing software.  Not all of us are good at all of these things, but most of us are good, and have fun with, at at least one of them.  We like the challenge -- even if we're fixing a problem that quality control should have caught before it left the plant.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

I hear ya, but ...

It's never  gonna happen.

In case it's not obvious the overwhelming majority of us are deep-dive tinkerers.   By definition we'd rather suck it up, fix it, and then get on with it.  I can only emphasize the importance of this by reusing your phrase: Period end of story.

BTW -- I truly feel sorry for those who are not, but this hobby has always been about tinkering, whether it's trying out  alternative layouts, modifying rolling stock, kitbashing locomotives, cobbling together several structures to make one, machining a new motor mount, refurbishing or replacing e-units, or most recently electronics, or even writing software.  Not all of us are good at all of these things, but most of us are good, and have fun with, at at least one of them.  We like the challenge -- even if we're fixing a problem that quality control should have caught before it left the plant.

Mike

Mike,

Most of us have read your posts to this effect in the past.  I don't find it a convincing use of the word, as a "tinkerer."  Tinkering is making something work better, or repairing it.  Tinkering is not finishing or correcting someone's poor assembly.  In this case, tightening screws correctly.  This is just poor quality control.  I agree tinkering is part of the hobby, but I don't consider it tinkering when I open the box on a brand new item and pieces fall out.  That's called garbage and poor quality control.  Peruse Lionel's website regarding the Vision Line products and see if anywhere it is disclosed that "tinkering" will be required after parts fall out of the box when you open it.  Take a guess what the sales volume would be if that were prominently disclosed as part of the fun (e.g., "whistle steam, diminishing coal load, blow-down effect, realistic sounds, and the enjoyment and satisfaction obtained from tinkering when parts fall out of the box.  MSRP:  $2799.00")  

Now you may be right about the burden of having Lionel fix it versus just fixing it yourself.  I get that.  But that doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it acceptable business practice.  Respectfully, the more people make excuses for it, the longer it will continue.  

@Ray Lombardo posted:

Sorry to hear this, and yet everyone still lines up to fork over top dollar.  Next time such a VL product is offered, if the take rate were very low, that would send the required message.  But instead people keep buying the stuff and then some will even compliment Lionel on the fast turnaround.  Product in this relative price range should not have these issues, period end of story.

Good luck to the original poster getting it fixed.  Hopefully this is the only issue.

@ThatGuy posted:

This is not a criticism of you guys one bit. But the truth is until you stop lining up to buy these expensive engines Lionel will not change.

Couldn't agree more.  Personally, I stopped buying new steamers when they crossed the $1000 threshold - just too much money for stuff that is likely to need expensive repairs for which the parts aren't available.  I'm still waiting for the manufacturers to contact me and beg me to return as a customer.

At this point, the issues with these products are well known - I doubt that anyone drops the money for one of these without knowing the risks - so it's an individual choice.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

I hear ya, but ...

It's never  gonna happen.

In case it's not obvious the overwhelming majority of us are deep-dive tinkerers.   By definition we'd rather suck it up, fix it, and then get on with it.  I can only emphasize the importance of this by reusing your phrase: Period end of story.

BTW -- I truly feel sorry for those who are not, but this hobby has always been about tinkering, whether it's trying out  alternative layouts, modifying rolling stock, kitbashing locomotives, cobbling together several structures to make one, machining a new motor mount, refurbishing or replacing e-units, or most recently electronics, or even writing software.  Not all of us are good at all of these things, but most of us are good, and have fun with, at at least one of them.  We like the challenge -- even if we're fixing a problem that quality control should have caught before it left the plant.

Mike

Mike you’re 100 percent correct. I fix things all the time, I just get tired when it becomes a habit with certain companies. I think Lionel has very little quality control, I have worked with factories in China and you truly get what you pay for, go to the lowest number than you get “it built its boxed, it’s gone” I have a feeling that is what Lionel is doing.

@PRRick posted:

The grease problem has been happening for years now.  If QC can't solve that, then I wouldn't hold out much hope for tightening all the screws.

what quality control? seems like these model have no quality control. they go straight from the factory to the final consumer. that means the consumer is the only quality control when he discovers all its defects.

Quality issues with Lionel are not new to this point in time. Anyone whose been collecting trains for more than 25 years just needs to search their memory. Lionel has had QC issues since the 60s, the severity of problems has ebbed and flowed over time as the company has changed owners and plants. There are plenty of models they have made over the years that collectors just “know” are problem models and its buyer beware so you need to know what to look for. Sometimes its mechanical, sometimes decoration, sometimes electronics.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

Quality issues with Lionel are not new to this point in time.

For more recent memory, think Century Club Niagara.

@David Eisinger posted:

what quality control? seems like these model have no quality control. they go straight from the factory to the final consumer. that means the consumer is the only quality control when he discovers all its defects.

I've been willing to give Lionel a lot of slack when it comes to QC, and I do believe that they care about things being right, I'm not quite as cynical as others.  But it does seem to me that despite all the work they are clearly doing in the design and preproduction phase, where they get samples and approve/disapprove of them, I'd agree that it really seems like they are missing a step once they get product into the NC warehouse. 

Based on the grapevine/rumor mill, it seems that sometimes they are checking things and rejecting bad product (such as Strasburg 90), but a lot of other times it really seems like once they've approved the model in design, whatever shows up in the warehouse is removed from the container and sent out to dealers/customers without a step in between to check multiple examples of the received product to make sure things are up to par.  I don't think they need to unpack every single one (though I'm sure some people would disagree) but whatever they are doing now, they need to take many more random boxes off the pallet for inspection, or they are doing that they need to do a better job of convincing higher-ups to reject the product when issues are found.

If both of the gearbox covers were off as in the photo, was this loco even test run or function checked at the factory after final assembly?

@EMD posted:

If both of the gearbox covers were off as in the photo, was this loco even test run or function checked at the factory after final assembly?

That’s nearly impossible to answer, …..it could’ve very well been tested at the factory, if the screws were not tightened as they should, but they were tight enough for testing, then all that shipping across the globe, temperature changes in the container, vibrations from being rocked on the ship, vibrations from being loaded & unloaded, vibrations from being trucked, then on the end user’s final delivery truck…..all that stuff comes into play here,…..is it excusable?, certainly not, but think about how those screws could’ve come out before you jump to your conclusion….

Pat

IMO QC is not checking product in North Carolina.  It is checking product before it leaves the factory in China.  I will repeat what I posted elsewhere you can't complain about Lionel QC as there is none.  I mean think about it, wrong paint, wrong paint shade, screws loose, parts loose in the box, broken or missing parts.  The list gos on and on yet we still buy.

We are enablers of a business model that should have otherwise failed.  If we want to complain, look in the mirror.

Are there are production figures for how many Visionline models get produced? I would love to know if 100 out of 20000 are damaged or if 10000 out of 20000 are damaged. That would be interesting information to see. I wonder if shareholders can get that info.

Stockholders are only interested in the stock price IMO.

Lionel is selling the sizzle of new features, Cab 3, wheel slippage, swinging bell, whistle steam while not being able to deliver product that for enough of us do not operate correctly out of the box for reasons previously mentioned in this thread.

That is not quality, that is misdirection.

I for one am getting off at the next station.

@BillYo414 posted:

Are there are production figures for how many Visionline models get produced? I would love to know if 100 out of 20000 are damaged or if 10000 out of 20000 are damaged. That would be interesting information to see. I wonder if shareholders can get that info.

That is a pretty good question Billy, but I would say that it is hard to answer short of trying to get numbers from Lionel. You figure when they run a catalog, they have their minimum order quantity. If they don't meet that(like the GS Series had one I think), they don't make it.

Question really comes down to shops covering what they intend(Lionel) to sell. I know I had talked with Steve Nelson on one of the proposed custom runs(Legacy), he knew he could meet the 50 minimum easy.

Of course that is in a custom run scenario, what about regular stuff. Let's take a region like the northeast, or even the northwest. Say that in both of these regions, there is about 200 total hobby shops that order Lionel trains(or any other manufacturer for that matter). With whatever is being offered, some hobby shops can order at least a few out of the catalog that they can easily sell. Others like Mr. Muffin's, may be able to order a substantial more. So, maybe some will only do regional sales, UP, NYC, PRR, what have you. The numbers may be just to hard to crunch. We may only be looking at 500 to 1000 units depending on what it is.

@BillYo414 posted:

Are there are production figures for how many Visionline models get produced? I would love to know if 100 out of 20000 are damaged or if 10000 out of 20000 are damaged. That would be interesting information to see. I wonder if shareholders can get that info.

I’d bet this group here represents the minority, ….there’s how many forum members vs. how many locomotives out in the wild? ….not saying the problems the few are having are not legit, they absolutely are, but it sounds like so far the problems can be resolved, so I’m sure this falls into the acceptable loss margin….take that same minority and now subtract the number of owners willing to turn a screwdriver like Zach did, …..he probably saved himself some future aggravation, and the big L people love that, ….no phone calls from Zach, and he’ll probably buy the next big game item….that’s their bank!!……if 50% of the small minority are willing to fix it themselves, then the others that can’t just became a whisper instead of a roar,…..sorry fellas, but that’s how this game works….

Pat

I ran into Dave Olsen some years ago at one of the warehouse sales, ….he was very pleasant, and at the time it was the “great Mogul disaster” …….when I asked Dave what they planned on doing with all those broken Moguls ( cause on the forum it sounded like a mass flood of engines being returned ) …..Dave looked me right in the eye and said you mean all 13 of them?…..I said there wasn’t a big flood of returned engines, he said nope,….and that was the end of that ……

Pat

Obviously I feel pretty calm at the moment because I don't have a broken locomotive in my possession. My shop (CT Trains, the forum sponsor) runs a bit behind so I expect it to come in shortly. I feel bad for the people with problems on a brand new (and quite expensive) model but I just can't get too excited until I find out the actual scale of the problem. That's just me. I think new stuff should work out of the box, period. I also recognize we aren't talking about Tinker Toys here. I don't know what the solution is. I guess I'm trying to calm emotions but also empathize.

A lot of the reactions scare me into not wanting to sell 3D printed structures because my printer simply can't print perfectly. It's constantly on my mind as I go forward and develop the model.

First off no way there were 20000 of these engines produced not even close. The 13 moguls how many fixed themselves and how many were produced. Of Dave is going to downplay it lionel is good about sweeping dirt under the rug.

@harmonyards posted:

I ran into Dave Olsen some years ago at one of the warehouse sales, ….he was very pleasant, and at the time it was the “great Mogul disaster” …….when I asked Dave what they planned on doing with all those broken Moguls ( cause on the forum it sounded like a mass flood of engines being returned ) …..Dave looked me right in the eye and said you mean all 13 of them?…..I said there wasn’t a big flood of returned engines, he said nope,….and that was the end of that ……

Pat

And that was when the minimum was 25 engines. So we saw of those about maybe 3-6 members here complain about issues with the engine. Pete ran a fix which if I remember correctly Gunrunner John got one fixed. The one takeaway was that Dave said publicly, that they weren't giving all the same issues. Sure some we're having what was cited with the bushing solution(driver/running gear), others had some other things like brake shoes rubbing as well. I forget what some others were.

I very much appreciate the orginal poster nta-pa,  identifing this issue and another poster that recommended that we grease new engines.  I also apprecate Harmonyards shutting down bad advice regarding screws (the orginal post was deleted), and lastly, nta-pa getting back to us that the engine is running well, after adding grease and the putting the gear box covers backon.

Now back to our regular programing of having fun with trains and trying to help each other out when problems come up. 

@Former Member posted:

IMO QC is not checking product in North Carolina.  It is checking product before it leaves the factory in China.  I will repeat what I posted elsewhere you can't complain about Lionel QC as there is none.  I mean think about it, wrong paint, wrong paint shade, screws loose, parts loose in the box, broken or missing parts.  The list gos on and on yet we still buy.

We are enablers of a business model that should have otherwise failed.  If we want to complain, look in the mirror.

I assume that the factory is doing/telling Lionel they are doing some sort of QC.  I guess by checking product in NC I mean checking the product before accepting it.  Whether that's adding a step in China or doing it in NC, it does seem like a step is missing or not thorough enough, at times.

To paraphrase a train dealer, once you get your engine open it up right away and run it to be sure it is OK because if you wait there may not be a replacement because Lionel/MTH/Atlas  only make so many under BTO and when they are gone, they are gone.

Therein lies some of the problem of why these defects may be a disproportionate concern to the actual number of defective engines sold.

@PSM posted:

I assume that the factory is doing/telling Lionel they are doing some sort of QC.  I guess by checking product in NC I mean checking the product before accepting it.  Whether that's adding a step in China or doing it in NC, it does seem like a step is missing or not thorough enough, at times.

PSM, There is hopefully some QC being done somewhere at some point in the delivery process, however there seems to be more systemic issues with design/manufacturing  such as known problems with K4 and Mikado gearing, persistent paint color/shade complaints, and poor assembly techniques/results vis a vis missing pats/loose screws unattached components.

Maybe it already exists or is done on a behind the scenes basis however if not has Lionel ever considered an advisory group with such notables as Harmony Yards, and Gun Runner John among others to reengineer and fix these known issues in the production chain rather than apparently repeating them with each successive variation of these engines?

It reflects poorly on any manufacturer when as others have stated previously that they have a regimen that they go through before running any engine because of known persistent manufacturing issues.  

That speaks volumes to the effectiveness of Lionel's QC.

Maybe the perception that these engines/trains are only toys has a more insidious affect on the care taken in the manufacturing process than we would like to acknowledge.

@Former Member posted:

I get your points, continuing to vent this is over the top, especially since the orginal poster does not have a problem anymore.

@DL Brunette posted:

Now back to our regular programing of having fun with trains and trying to help each other out when problems come up.

That's what's up

@harmonyards posted:

Do not put thread locker on those screws!!……that bottom cover is the only access for servicing. If you strip the heads because they’re loctited in, it’s curtains! …

Pat

Just a thought why not use Allen head screws? Be a much better choice in my opinion.  If that engine was mine I'd switch to Allen head screws.

I have a data point that I think is relevant.  Over the past several years, I have purchased 12 brand new Lionel modern engines.  Of those 12, I have 4 cases of loose screws/fallen parts.  I can follow up with another post tonight when I have more time to document each case.

Although this problem can be resolved by reattaching the parts (if you can find the screws in the box), this is a very significant failure in QC or design for manufacturing.  It is a shame because I think they can be mitigated by just using a lock washer with the screw.  With the price of these engines I am sure Lionel can afford a few extra cents for the lock washers?

I’ve read engineering studies that point to lock washers actually can promote screws to loosen. Results very based on type of lock washer, type of fastener, and the application of how the fastener is used. Some cases it is effective, others it is a hindrance.

A properly torqued screw will hold without issue, especially after the model has arrived. With the amount of packing materials used in these big locomotives, a properly torqued screw isn’t going to vibrate loose. Once in the hands of the new owner, problem will be virtually non-existent so don’t worry about adding/changing hardware or using thread locker. Your model going around the layout should not see the vibration frequencies that cause screws to loosen, if you do, you’re model has more significant issues.

@feet posted:

Just a thought why not use Allen head screws? Be a much better choice in my opinion.  If that engine was mine I'd switch to Allen head screws.

Allen heads for those tiny 2mm screws would be a major PITA IMO, …..they are JIS drive, which would be the best choice for this application. JIS with the proper JIS screwdriver is pretty hard to beat. Much better than traditional Phillips….

Pat