Barry Broskowitz posted:CPBILL, indicated that he used 10-12 drops which is below what is stated in the manual.
Not exactly correct. He said:
"I Try to put 10 to12 drops."
That's a general statement, not a statement of what he actually did on this occasion.
Ok plus or minus I drop . What happens when you blow air down the stack to remove air bubbles and I don't mean with a air compressor.
Interesting it seems that a lot of people's solution is not to use the smoke unit or run only PW. LOL have at it. So you pay for all these features and then...don't use them. Sorry I use the heck out of my smoke units. Either I've been extremely lucky or something as my smoke units have been pretty reliable. I have had a couple of fans replaced but considering the amount I have that's a small percentage. You're mileage may vary.
As far as Lionel warranting them, it is a little disheartening to hear there was a charge to repair it. Of course I didn't see the units so there may be some facts that we are not getting. It's easy to arm chair quarterback the situation when we are not on either team. I won't fault either without knowing all the facts.
As far as smoke units being re-designed, these are now doing more than ever, and more than other vendors units. I suspect that with complexity comes some issues that are almost impossible to design for. Tubes, funnels, and fans being used all over. You can only do so much. I hate the tubes and funnels but they are, for the most part a necessity to give us the "more" that we crave.
My question is are we asking to much from a smoke unit, Maybe just maybe we may need to step back and ask is all the complex smoke worth the trouble I found IMO that most people turn off or reduce the smoke, So maybe its time to just make it like they did in the past, Good reliable and fun
If it's such an issue of damaging the boards with smoke fluid, for a product that has an MSRP of $2700, they should provide some protection for the circuitry! It should not be so easy to destroy an expensive circuit board.
I will agree with Marty, this could have been an egregious case of overfilling, but in general I still believe there should be more protection if this is a frequent issue.
TrainingDave posted:snip...
Also to note - running an empty smoke unit will NOT damage the batting material or the heating element. This has been stated time and time again by Lionel. The residue left in the batting material are the impurities from the smoke fluid, not charred batting. This is why Lionel Premium is recommended in Lionel engines w/ fan driven units. There is no damage done to a dry smoke unit.
Ok. Now I want to get out a smoke unit and run it on the bench. I have only used Lionel fluid in some of the smoke units I have rebuilt and they were pretty crusty. But maybe that was before I got the Premium fluid.
Also, I remember some warning not to use the Lionel fluid that comes with cabooses, etc. and wonder why or what is different about that fluid from Premium fluid.
the smoke system needs to be revamped in its entirety. At present it is only a quirky feature that cannot be used in a continuous manner. there should be a reservoir in the tender which can hold a significant amount of fluid.
Bob C.
Actually I am shocked that smoke fluid would permanently damage the boards.
The things I have subjected my current boards too ( knock on wood) and they literally tend to survive is beyond me...
Legit question--and I don't own any super-high-end locomotives--but why are smoke unit failures/issues even a thing in 2016, and on an expensive model? That should be pretty bulletproof technology at this point, and there's at least a thread a week on smoke unit problems.
Also, why do smoke units from inexpensive 1980's starter locos blow like the dickens 30+ years later with few issues? I have six 4-4-2's and 2-4-2's bought used and heavily-used on the Bay, all powerful smokers. I don't do anything to maintain them.
cpbill posted:Ok plus or minus I drop . What happens when you blow air down the stack to remove air bubbles and I don't mean with a air compressor.
I believe it's in the manual somewhere, you are only allowed to blow 1.2 to 1.5 psi.
I was watching a young guy yesterday using his "vape" and he was blowing some really serious smoke !!! I told him I wished my Lionels smoked like that. Has anyone tried the vape fluid in a Lionel smoke unit ?? I really think with all the smoke outlets used on these new, expensive models- multiple stacks, whistles, cylinders and blow down, it is time to get a few of the old timers from Lionel, AF and Marx to design a unit that is designed to be used by the common man.
jim pastorius posted:I was watching a young guy yesterday using his "vape" and he was blowing some really serious smoke !!! I told him I wished my Lionels smoked like that. Has anyone tried the vape fluid in a Lionel smoke unit ?? I really think with all the smoke outlets used on these new, expensive models- multiple stacks, whistles, cylinders and blow down, it is time to get a few of the old timers from Lionel, AF and Marx to design a unit that is designed to be used by the common man.
No, no Vaping fluid here... too much nicotine. next I will start smoking again.
but the battery driver might be the way to go...
in the old days on the Forum we discussed the need for a Super Smoke/Super Steam system
Bob C.
You got it !! Now enjoy.
J Daddy posted:jim pastorius posted:I was watching a young guy yesterday using his "vape" and he was blowing some really serious smoke !!! I told him I wished my Lionels smoked like that. Has anyone tried the vape fluid in a Lionel smoke unit ?? I really think with all the smoke outlets used on these new, expensive models- multiple stacks, whistles, cylinders and blow down, it is time to get a few of the old timers from Lionel, AF and Marx to design a unit that is designed to be used by the common man.
No, no Vaping fluid here... too much nicotine. next I will start smoking again.
but the battery driver might be the way to go...
You can get it with 0mg of nicotine.
NJCJOE posted:J Daddy posted:jim pastorius posted:I was watching a young guy yesterday using his "vape" and he was blowing some really serious smoke !!! I told him I wished my Lionels smoked like that. Has anyone tried the vape fluid in a Lionel smoke unit ?? I really think with all the smoke outlets used on these new, expensive models- multiple stacks, whistles, cylinders and blow down, it is time to get a few of the old timers from Lionel, AF and Marx to design a unit that is designed to be used by the common man.
No, no Vaping fluid here... too much nicotine. next I will start smoking again.
but the battery driver might be the way to go...
You can get it with 0mg of nicotine.
Same stuff that's in the smoke fluid probably...except the nicotine.
If I were Lionel the mere existence of this thread would make me reconsider my approach.
Robert Coniglio posted:the smoke system needs to be revamped in its entirety. At present it is only a quirky feature that cannot be used in a continuous manner. there should be a reservoir in the tender which can hold a significant amount of fluid.
Bob C.
Really? It's that horrible? For the few people here that have issues, there are many others not. This forum is hardly scientific. And about that reservoir in the tender...have at it and design, build, and market it. I suspect that the cost to do so will make your $2700 engine increase in price. Smoke units in general with regular fillings (when needed) and wicking replacement (as needed) will and do last.
Lionel smoke units worked reliably in the past, although just not the smoke volume of others. It wasn't until they added the diagnostics to them that they've become a problem since it does shut down the units and no more smoke until the error is corrected. Many units in the past would most likely have shut down too if the same diagnostics were in place.
The OP has a valid concern but jumping to the conclusion that the whole smoke unit need a revamp is a bit of a stretch IMO.
We have a vape shop down the road and I would try some in a PW Lionel just for kicks t see what would happen. Probably too expensive. Will check it out. Easiest way to quit smoking is not to start.
I understand that the present smoke design can be used with some success if one wants to work at it but I stand with my opinion
Bob C.
Well if they are gonna charge 300 bucks to fix how about recalling all of them for there **** poor smoking they had.. I shouldnt of had to open my up to make it work ... I had 3 and fixed a few others.. I am standing by my words they didnt smoke well..
Robert Coniglio posted:I understand that the present smoke design can be used with some success if one wants to work at it but I stand with my opinion
Bob C.
Again I guess your mileage may vary. I would never dispute that anyone is having issues but to paint with such a broad brush that everyone is having trouble and the units should be recalled is IMO incorrect. At first my VL Big Boy smoked poorly. It turned out to be low track voltage. Got up past 17v and it did wonders.
Ray Lombardo posted:If I were Lionel the mere existence of this thread would make me reconsider my approach.
Well actually to Lionel's credit, as someone has already said, Lionel is quite generous and cares about the customer. I think to an extent that is unusual for many businesses. I can see where a repair might automatically be deemed to require non-warranty payment, but my feeling about Lionel tells me that a one on one discussion with a decision maker there might yield more favorable results.
A business has to have guide lines to follow for each department, and sometimes it takes an event to highlight a need to change some guide line with unintended consequences. This may be such an event. Or, as Marty said, we are assuming we know every detail here and we do not.
But...this entire thread, all responses included, does highlight a major concern about the "Mysteryof the Lionel Smoke Units". That it's a mystery to many loyal customers as to how not to overfill or cause other damage. I would like to believe that you cannot harm one by running it dry for example. But to believe that, I would have to see that written down somewhere by Lionel. If that were really true, think how that would release us from worry on when to add fluid.
I don't believe you can operate a smoke unit dry without doing damage.
Bob C.
CPBILL,
Email Mike Reagan at Lionel. Tell him your story, maybe he will be able to give you a pass. His Forum user name is MIKADO. Tell him you are a forum guy.
JohnB
I have always thought it would be nice if the engine had a lift out section so you could see the smoke unit reservoir when filling and remove all the guess work. I am thinking about the ones some engines already have for their selector switches and feature adjustments. I suppose they have probably thought of that already and may not be feasible? I am sure it sounds a lot easier than it would be to actually do, but it certainly would take some of the guess work out filling the smoke units if we could see what we were doing. IMO, the mystery of smoke units (properly filling them anyway) applies to all brands.
no has said why do we have to use lionel smoke fluid, I have many MTH and TMCC locos and have used different smoke fluid and they work great. Is it to sell only lionel smoke fluid, is that money in there pocket, or is it to cover up a bigger problem. The problem is that they are trying to do to much with something as simple as a smoke unit
MartyE posted:Robert Coniglio posted:I understand that the present smoke design can be used with some success if one wants to work at it but I stand with my opinion
Bob C.
Again I guess your mileage may vary. I would never dispute that anyone is having issues but to paint with such a broad brush that everyone is having trouble and the units should be recalled is IMO incorrect. At first my VL Big Boy smoked poorly. It turned out to be low track voltage. Got up past 17v and it did wonders.
Well Marty I am at 18.4 volts and the blowdown sucked .. This was a 2k engine .. No reason for a puffer unit from the 50s to do more smoke then this .. I am not tring to fight here I just think for what we paid for it should be right .. Back on the subject if you miss the hole to put the fluid down the blowdown there's only one place it's gonna go right on the boards .Theres nothing there to stop it .. Not really a good design and not fair to not warranty this engine.
A business has to have guide lines to follow for each department, and sometimes it takes an event to highlight a need to change some guide line with unintended consequences.
Yes they do. But that could easily include an escalation to an individual higher up the organizational structure before they decide to make an unhappy customer. A customer should not have to appeal to a higher authority to be well treated by a company whose entire business is based upon luxury purchases and customer satisfaction.
rtr12 posted:I have always thought it would be nice if the engine had a lift out section so you could see the smoke unit reservoir when filling and remove all the guess work. I am thinking about the ones some engines already have for their selector switches and feature adjustments. I suppose they have probably thought of that already and may not be feasible? I am sure it sounds a lot easier than it would be to actually do, but it certainly would take some of the guess work out filling the smoke units if we could see what we were doing. IMO, the mystery of smoke units (properly filling them anyway) applies to all brands.
exactly my point above.
cjack posted:Ray Lombardo posted:If I were Lionel the mere existence of this thread would make me reconsider my approach.
Well actually to Lionel's credit, as someone has already said, Lionel is quite generous and cares about the customer. I think to an extent that is unusual for many businesses. I can see where a repair might automatically be deemed to require non-warranty payment, but my feeling about Lionel tells me that a one on one discussion with a decision maker there might yield more favorable results.
A business has to have guide lines to follow for each department, and sometimes it takes an event to highlight a need to change some guide line with unintended consequences. This may be such an event. Or, as Marty said, we are assuming we know every detail here and we do not.
But...this entire thread, all responses included, does highlight a major concern about the "Mysteryof the Lionel Smoke Units". That it's a mystery to many loyal customers as to how not to overfill or cause other damage. I would like to believe that you cannot harm one by running it dry for example. But to believe that, I would have to see that written down somewhere by Lionel. If that were really true, think how that would release us from worry on when to add fluid.
If you have to ask multiple times, the opportunity to preserve the relationship is lost to a large degree. There shouldn't be a need to know the right person either, as CW indicated.
No dog in this fight other than I am shocked to read of such a response with respect to a premium product.
I'm on the fence about E-mailing Mike Regan don't know if it would help. Like I said before I fill all my loco's the same way (12total,4 are Vision line) never had a problem. When Lionel called to tell me I should of talk to the Tech that worked on it. I still may do that when I get the call for the final bill. Thank you for your Input.
Bill
jojofry posted:MartyE posted:Robert Coniglio posted:I understand that the present smoke design can be used with some success if one wants to work at it but I stand with my opinion
Bob C.
Again I guess your mileage may vary. I would never dispute that anyone is having issues but to paint with such a broad brush that everyone is having trouble and the units should be recalled is IMO incorrect. At first my VL Big Boy smoked poorly. It turned out to be low track voltage. Got up past 17v and it did wonders.
Well Marty I am at 18.4 volts and the blowdown sucked .. This was a 2k engine .. No reason for a puffer unit from the 50s to do more smoke then this .. I am not tring to fight here I just think for what we paid for it should be right .. Back on the subject if you miss the hole to put the fluid down the blowdown there's only one place it's gonna go right on the boards .Theres nothing there to stop it .. Not really a good design and not fair to not warranty this engine.
As I said "Your mileage may vary." This was the issue I was having and the voltage made all the difference. And I do not disagree, it should be right. I am just addressing the broad statement that everyone is having trouble. Again with out all the details from both parties I'm not willing to say who's to blame. IMO though the VL Big Boy should have a better warranty policy except in cases of blatant abuse. I do not believe adding smoke fluid should be the cause of loss of a warranty repair based on the information the OP gave to us.
I think perhaps he should contact someone at Lionel and express his displeasure. I certainly would have done that first though.
I think perhaps he should contact someone at Lionel and express his displeasure. I certainly would have done that first though.
Why? When the service person told our original poster that he would be charged $300, did anybody at Lionel think he would be happy? There is an old saw in the world of customer service: An unhappy person will tell ten others. A happy person might tell one.
Lionel knows that this and other "O" gauge model railroading boards exist. They should anticipate that any time they have a dissatisfied customer, that it will be brought up on one or more chat boards. Is there a business that doesn't have to deal with this?
A satisfied customer is a company's biggest asset. They advertise like crazy and really don't reach out to a less than happy customer. Poor marketing, poor business practice. The customer is always right. As I would tell some of the dumbies that worked where I worked "They pay our salaries". It wouldn't cost Lionel $300 t fix the board, that is what they wanted to charge the customer. Their cost was probably $10 and you shouldn't have to write Mike Reagan either.
MartyE posted:jojofry posted:MartyE posted:Robert Coniglio posted:I understand that the present smoke design can be used with some success if one wants to work at it but I stand with my opinion
Bob C.
Again I guess your mileage may vary. I would never dispute that anyone is having issues but to paint with such a broad brush that everyone is having trouble and the units should be recalled is IMO incorrect. At first my VL Big Boy smoked poorly. It turned out to be low track voltage. Got up past 17v and it did wonders.
Well Marty I am at 18.4 volts and the blowdown sucked .. This was a 2k engine .. No reason for a puffer unit from the 50s to do more smoke then this .. I am not tring to fight here I just think for what we paid for it should be right .. Back on the subject if you miss the hole to put the fluid down the blowdown there's only one place it's gonna go right on the boards .Theres nothing there to stop it .. Not really a good design and not fair to not warranty this engine.
As I said "Your mileage may vary." This was the issue I was having and the voltage made all the difference. And I do not disagree, it should be right. I am just addressing the broad statement that everyone is having trouble. Again with out all the details from both parties I'm not willing to say who's to blame. IMO though the VL Big Boy should have a better warranty policy except in cases of blatant abuse. I do not believe adding smoke fluid should be the cause of loss of a warranty repair based on the information the OP gave to us.
I think perhaps he should contact someone at Lionel and express his displeasure. I certainly would have done that first though.
Agreed .. To be honest with the price increase and Reading stuff like this and no school for techs I guess I am not a happy camper right now..Maybe the reason I didn't buy any sd40s and Didn't preorder the allegheny .
Actually if you get the fluid down inside the stack, or down inside the hole into the smoke whistle, there is really no way it can get on the boards. (If you miss the hole it will of course run all down the side of the loc.) At the entrance to the smoke unit there is a small brass "funnel" that fits around a corresponding boss in the boiler casting, and this prevents fluid from overflowing or running anywhere other than into the bowl. If you overfill the fluid bowl, the first place the excess will run is into the fan chamber. From there it will certainly overflow onto whatever is below it in the immediate vicinity. If you invert an overfilled engine so as to remove the shell, it will definitely run out of the smoke unit and will make a bit of a mess inside the boiler. But this is generally pretty easy to mop up once you have the boiler off.
As far as making a removable panel so as to visualize the amount of fluid, this may not be very practical. If the fluid bowl was made of clear plastic you might have a chance, but the wadding would prevent any real level indication I would guess. Remember, there is not supposed to be free liquid in the bowl; it is supposed to be completely absorbed by the wadding. Plus the bowl gets pretty hot in operation due to the resistor heat, so plastic may not be a good bet. Model aircraft guys often use clear plastic fuel tanks, just so they can see the fuel level, but they are not dealing with wadding, or heat.
While we are on the subject, an engine whose smoke unit has been used, even if only once, should NEVER be stored inverted or on its side. Residual smoke fluid will most definitely run out and make a mess over time if it is stored in any position other than right side up. I suspect that most of the mess on the boards in the OP's Bigboy likely occurred during shipping (with the fluid bowls full, but NOT necessarily over-filled). During shipping it would have been in god knows what positions, quite possibly never right side up.
Just my nickle's worth.
Rod
Having read most of this, I have yet to see a reason that the OP sent the VL BB in, only that he did and got a call stating there would be a fee. Why did the BB go back? If the locomotive was not working correctly, and the cause was issues with the boards the smoke fluid was on, then Lionel was in the right. If it was having issues with something no where near the boards with smoke fluid, then Lionel is within their rights, but made a choice we don't like. When I had to send mine back due to the tender coal load broken, I asked them to check out the smoke units. They told me if they saw too much fluid, then it'd cost me. They never said anything afterwards, so I guess it was clean inside. But they warned me up front it'd be a couple hundred if it was messy. Which leand me to another thought, perhaps the OP misunderstood the call. Perhaps Lionel was calling not to say there would be a charge, but there could be a charge if they found lots of fluid on the boards?
Make life easy. READ THE BOOK. Many of us have children and Grandchildren. They like to see all the action on the new trains. They also like the remote and Wi-Fi operation. Enjoy what you like. I am very happy for postwar guys that are happy. I know a few postwar guys and they are very happy with the low prices they can finally buy equipment at. This is a good time to build a postwar collection. Parts will always be available to fix them.
READ THE BOOK.
I didn't see an answer to my question about whether Lionel included a Quick Start Guide. I guess they don't.
C W Burfle posted:READ THE BOOK.
I didn't see an answer to my question about whether Lionel included a Quick Start Guide. I guess they don't.
The user manual is the quick start guide.
When I buy a car I tend to read the manual..
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