Vision line Bigboy in for repair

When I buy a car I tend to read the manual..

You are in the minority.

Remember for $2000; the quality goes in before the name goes on.

Wow, with all this banter I am going to have to build up courage just to take it out of the box! Let alone turn on the smoke unit.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

I think Lionel is setting a bad precedent not honoring the warranty in this case.

On the contrary, I think that Lionel is setting an excellent precedent. This clearly is not a warranty item. Why should Lionel pay the bill for someone's operator error and/or not reading the engine's manual?

This engine's cost was in the neighborhood of $2,000. If you pay that much for something, it's only common sense to take care of it. This problem was completely avoidable.

On the contrary, this type of response is nonsense. Anyone with any common sense sees the obvious flaw in "follow the instructions or your stupid" comments, which is - it's a guessing game, created by the manufacturers.

The locomotive unit doesn't come with any fill line markers to know how filled the unit is at any time.  Even if you fill the first time per instructions, you have no way of knowing thereafter at what point 10 or 20 (or whatever) refill drops are the right amount.  So, it's basically a "gotcha" by the manufacturer. Don't fill enough, and you're SOL if the unit fails because you didn't fill enough. Overfill and you're SOL because fluid seeped into other parts.  So tell me mr. manufacturer, how is anyone to know with any certainty the fluid level?  And please, no irrelevant anecdotes about how you've never experienced a problem. All the prudence or luck in the world is not science.  The issue is caused by design, literally.  

Peter 

I am shocked that no one has developed a better way to measure and add smoke fluid.  Why can't there be a reservoir that you simply fill like you would washer fluid on your car?

I am loathe to put fluid in my locomotives.  You pay $1000+ and then have to worry about overfilling it, or dropping the fluid perfectly straight into the cylinder etc... How has no one designed an idiot proof (i.e. Me proof) way to do handle smoke fluid?  Seems like it would avoid a lot of returns and frustration.  I would definitely love to see that over depleting coal function, etc.  

Ben  

the problem is that there is not enough available space in locomotives. the next place to turn is the tender. this would require some sort of tubing connection to the locomotive and that is undesireable

Bob C.

PJB posted:

Barry Broskowitz posted:

I think Lionel is setting a bad precedent not honoring the warranty in this case.

On the contrary, I think that Lionel is setting an excellent precedent. This clearly is not a warranty item. Why should Lionel pay the bill for someone's operator error and/or not reading the engine's manual?

This engine's cost was in the neighborhood of $2,000. If you pay that much for something, it's only common sense to take care of it. This problem was completely avoidable.

On the contrary, this type of response is nonsense. Anyone with any common sense sees the obvious flaw in "follow the instructions or your stupid" comments, which is - it's a guessing game, created by the manufacturers.

The locomotive unit doesn't come with any fill line markers to know how filled the unit is at any time.  Even if you fill the first time per instructions, you have no way of knowing thereafter at what point 10 or 20 (or whatever) refill drops are the right amount.  So, it's basically a "gotcha" by the manufacturer. Don't fill enough, and you're SOL if the unit fails because you didn't fill enough. Overfill and you're SOL because fluid seeped into other parts.  So tell me mr. manufacturer, how is anyone to know with any certainty the fluid level?  And please, no irrelevant anecdotes about how you've never experienced a problem. All the prudence or luck in the world is not science.  The issue is caused by design, literally.  

Peter 

This is so true.  A member of our club, who I won't name, had the opposite problem with his two M1A locomotives.  The smoke units stopped working and then the main board shorted.  This happened to both of them in the space of a few hours running!  Lionel's diagnosis was that he didn't use enough smoke fluid!  I happen to know how he runs, and I was there for the running of these when they failed at our modular show.  He used more than the recommended amount of smoke fluid, not less.  Lionel did cover the repairs, but this just further illustrates the vague nature of trying to properly feed the smoke units.  Obviously, those boards were not soaked with smoke fluid, so what happened there?

I will hasten to add, I've never personally had a board killed with smoke fluid.  I've taken some customer units apart that were so soaked in fluid that I had to remove the board(s) and wash them, but they all functioned properly after the immersion in smoke fluid and the subsequent cleaning. 

I don't know why smoke fluid would automatically destroy a circuit board, my feeling is there are more factors involved in this kind of failure.

I agree with John, I have had boards fully soaked in smoke fluid and after a good washing they worked just fine. Its hard to say one way or the other if too much was used or not enough was used. It could be that it was finding another channel out of the smoke unit. I am very familiar siwht smoke units both inside and out and every once in a while for some unknown reason I find myself with a smoke fluid mess on a locomotive, One of my Lionel diecast ES44's had a huge smoke fluid mess after running for 3 hours at the last show. Smoke fluid and smoke units is far more art than science

correct!

Bob C.

So you buy a big, fancy, expensive locomotive and if you run the smoke unit you are ****ed if you do fill it too full or don't.  Would you tolerate that situation with the A/C in your new , expensive automobile ??  It is rather obvious that the smoke units are a design weakness that the manufacturer  is avoiding and sticking the customers with. Not good business.  Ask V W about that.

jim pastorius posted:

So you buy a big, fancy, expensive locomotive and if you run the smoke unit you are ****ed if you do fill it too full or don't.  Would you tolerate that situation with the A/C in your new , expensive automobile ??  It is rather obvious that the smoke units are a design weakness that the manufacturer  is avoiding and sticking the customers with. Not good business.  Ask V W about that.

To be honest it's no one gives a crap about coustomer service anymore .. It's not just Lionel I have owned 3 dodge chargers in 10 year never had a issue with any of them.. The day I had one issue with the u connect they have no idea how to fix it .. I had to call dodge to get anywhere finally it's suppose to get fixed today. 

I am with John. I don't believe for once over filling the smoke unit was the root cause of the problem...

I have boards that have survived high voltage shorts and still survive, smoke fluid all over the place with locomotives are tipped upside down, and boards with cigarette/ nicotine/tar damage, and they seem to work fine.

I think the " over filled the smoke unit" was a way to get the customer to pay for main driver board issue.

I would have called Mike...

Matt Makens posted:

I agree with John, I have had boards fully soaked in smoke fluid and after a good washing they worked just fine. Its hard to say one way or the other if too much was used or not enough was used. It could be that it was finding another channel out of the smoke unit. I am very familiar siwht smoke units both inside and out and every once in a while for some unknown reason I find myself with a smoke fluid mess on a locomotive, One of my Lionel diecast ES44's had a huge smoke fluid mess after running for 3 hours at the last show. Smoke fluid and smoke units is far more art than science

I'm thinking that if you do a lot of smoke for a long time, depending on the design, the path the smoke takes in getting to the outside,  the vapor can possibly re-condense inside the boiler or shell. Not the result of over filling, just the way it's designed.

jim pastorius posted:

So you buy a big, fancy, expensive locomotive and if you run the smoke unit you are ****ed if you do fill it too full or don't.  Would you tolerate that situation with the A/C in your new , expensive automobile ??  It is rather obvious that the smoke units are a design weakness that the manufacturer  is avoiding and sticking the customers with. Not good business.  Ask V W about that.

I think Lionel is so desperate to sell product at ever decreasing cost to them , QC takes a back seat to the bottom line.  Lionel has been reinventing  old tooling with barely tested new features   My B-6 switcher has an annoying and loud popping sound when quilling the whistle that is not evident on any of my earlier steams . I sent the engine in but the service tech told me its a software issue and it can't be fixed.  It was returned with no improvement    My 2005 GN 0-8-0 switcher has the IR connection (no wired tether).  I've never had a connectivity problem and it runs perfect.  The new reissue cost more and has the old ugly cost saving tether wire.

Bottom line, Lionel knows their smoke units are crap with flaws but they keep putting them out.   Six of the last seven Lionel steams I've bought has been returned for smoke or other issues.  The seventh, the VL Bigboy has a smoke blow down problem . but its too expensive an engine to risk sending it back.  Until customers complain loudly and simply reject products that appear faulty, we can expect more of the same at increased cost,  

Joe

cjack posted:

Matt Makens posted:

I agree with John, I have had boards fully soaked in smoke fluid and after a good washing they worked just fine. Its hard to say one way or the other if too much was used or not enough was used. It could be that it was finding another channel out of the smoke unit. I am very familiar siwht smoke units both inside and out and every once in a while for some unknown reason I find myself with a smoke fluid mess on a locomotive, One of my Lionel diecast ES44's had a huge smoke fluid mess after running for 3 hours at the last show. Smoke fluid and smoke units is far more art than science

I'm thinking that if you do a lot of smoke for a long time, depending on the design, the path the smoke takes in getting to the outside,  the vapor can possibly re-condense inside the boiler or shell. Not the result of over filling, just the way it's designed.

Really? Begs the question then shouldn't the boards be covered or sealed?

Lots of negative comments on this subject.  My bet would be those making the most noise against the engine do not own the engine.  Again    READ THE BOOK.  .  Many common sense responses are also present on the post.  These come from the same guys that have common sense. READ THE BOOK and you will have NO problems.   READ THE BOOK  goes for all engines or operating situations.   I see many with nasty letters about smoke.   Many come down to DUH-turn the smoke unit switch on.   That part is in the book.

Lionel is very decent on helping people with problems.  If you screwed it up from not reading the book, you should pay.   If you buy a new engine and have a legitimate issue, Lionel will take immediate care of you.  You are better off to contact them ASAP and get an RA number than slam the engine and Lionel on this or any other forum.  

Remember Boys and Girls, Lionel and MTH  may also  watch this forum.  

Just from what I read here and personal experiences with customer service(not Lionel or RR), I get the feeling the "over fill"  claim is a cop out on the service person's part or the company.  I have been reading early issues of CTT for the last week or so and some of this stuff is not new. But, and a big but, is that in the olden, golden days the stuff was made here  with a whole different attitude.

Marty is right. 

Plus, Lionel has excellent customer service. Compare to MTH turnaround time and parts dept.

I would agree that customer service is lost in many industries. But Lionel to me still goes above and beyond. Like a number of people here have already commented, asking for Mike R. or the Service Dept manager would have been the right course of action. A service tech is only going to do what they've been trained to do. You're not going to get a different result without asking someone higher up.

And I'm sorry, but this is not a QC problem. There are countless smoke units out there working just fine. Just because people here say they're having problems doesn't mean everyone is. There's always going to be issues with a certain percentage of manufactured goods. That's why products come with a warranty.

But honestly, most problems in these engines most likely stem from user error. People are just too full of pride to admit it. They'd rather point the finger at the manufacturer than own up to making a mistake. That's why companies build in safeguards. Companies have to make money to survive.

Nonetheless, it is entertaining to read all the rants from the keyboard warriors here. Please let me know when you all have started your own train company and are putting out perfectly designed products with zero defects. I'll be the first one on the order list.

Jim, overfull is not a cop out.  It is a real deal.  I can tell you that first hand.  I see it every week.   The cop out is guys looking to put their actions on Lionel and not accept responsibility for their actions.  My bet is the guys that make the most negative noise here are guys who did not step up and buy the engine.  Posting against the engine/Lionel makes them feel good for not buying the engine.  

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Lots of negative comments on this subject.  My bet would be those making the most noise against the engine do not own the engine.  Again    READ THE BOOK.  .  Many common sense responses are also present on the post.  These come from the same guys that have common sense. READ THE BOOK and you will have NO problems.   READ THE BOOK  goes for all engines or operating situations.   I see many with nasty letters about smoke.   Many come down to DUH-turn the smoke unit switch on.   That part is in the book.

Lionel is very decent on helping people with problems.  If you screwed it up from not reading the book, you should pay.   

Marty - Really ? Insulting the OP about being mindless and not reading a BOOK really is not what we are talking about here. Most people who purchase this locomotive and operate it have been buying and operating Lionel products for years. I can smell a burnt wick a 100 ft. away.

I believe the point being made here is for a premium locomotive there should be a fail safe on the electronics to avoid a board being burned out... a few dollars more to make the engine more robust should be the norm.

And I'm sorry, but this is not a QC problem. There are countless smoke units out there working just fine. Just because people here say they're having problems doesn't mean everyone is. There's always going to be issues with a certain percentage of manufactured goods. That's why products come with a warranty.

Measuring and controlling the percentage of defective goods is part of quality control.

But honestly, most problems in these engines most likely stem from user error. People are just too full of pride to admit it. They'd rather point the finger at the manufacturer than own up to making a mistake. That's why companies build in safeguards. Companies have to make money to survive.

If there are a significant number of user errors, then the product is poorly designed. If overfilling the smoke unit can cause board failure, then the boards should be protected. (better yet, design a system that prevents overfilling, or directs the overflow where it can do no harm) A cop-out alternative would be to ship the engines with a one page quick start guide that includes any and all warnings about things not to do. (better than nothing) Someone mentioned reading their car's owners manual. The last time I purchased a car, the salesman insisted on showing me all the controls. The previous car did come with a quick start guide. I look in the manual when I have a question.

How many guys on this post purchased this engine????     

TRAININGDAVE  could not have said it better.     This can go on forever and it will be sparked by people who screw up engines and people who did not buy the Big Boy for whatever reason.

CW, BTW the smoke unit is not poorly designed.  I as a Lionel Tech can say nothing but good things about it.  I speak from first hand knowledge.  You speak from no knowledge.  What makes you an expert on making an unfounded statement about the smoke unit?   Do you own the engine?  

Hopefully the Webmaster will lock it.

My bet is the guys that make the most negative noise here are guys who did not step up and buy the engine.  Posting against the engine/Lionel makes them feel good for not buying the engine.  

I didn't buy one, I don't buy any newly made Lionel product, but I do care about what is going on in that market.
Lots of folks purchase new Lionel product, and I want them to be happy with their purchases. Unhappy people are not going to stay "O" gauge model railroaders. They'll find somewhere else to spend their money.

How do you "grow the hobby" by making dissatisfied customers?

C W Burfle posted:

And I'm sorry, but this is not a QC problem. There are countless smoke units out there working just fine. Just because people here say they're having problems doesn't mean everyone is. There's always going to be issues with a certain percentage of manufactured goods. That's why products come with a warranty.

Measuring and controlling the percentage of defective goods is part of quality control.

Units can become damaged in shipping, they can become defective after a short time of use, etc. Hard to hold QC on things that are no longer in your hand. Again, hence why products have warranties.

Lionel must have done something right as they sold many of those engines.   If you do not care to buy any newly made Lionel products, why have so much to comment about.   None of the others care what you run and have no negative comments on your trains.  Enjoy what you run and have fun.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Lionel must have done something right as they sold many of those engines.   If you do not care to buy any newly made Lionel products, why have so much to comment about.   None of the others care what you run and have no negative comments on your trains.  Enjoy what you run and have fun.

I bought one. And a JLC version. Just because I have no issues today, does not mean I it will become an issue 2 months from now.

I know you have serviced plenty of these locomotives and I am sure you have become frustrated with fact that if things were just thought out a little better, standardized, or design/ engineered better, your and my time would have been spent better running them.

Terry Danks posted:

Ya' know, this forum is choc-a-bloc FULL with people who understand these toys inside and out.

That's a good thing! It's why I came here in the first place.

But nobody is born with this knowledge! Many never acquire it. They have lives that are centered on other matters and trains are a simple diversion that they never bother to delve into deeply enough to become masters of. Nothing wrong with that!

I am of the opinion, now that I understand how smoke units work, that they are accidents waiting to happen. Best to use them with great care . . . and probably best to use them only occasionally.

There was a thread here in the past year by a pretty knowlegeble fellow about how his VLBB had a prodigious appetite for fluid. And that far more than the niggardly owner's manual recommendation produced great results. And very frequent refillings were necessary too. Sounds like a recipe for trouble, no?

I'd look for a another serviceman if one refuses to work on a repair he thinks might be messy. Cleaning up the engine and explaning things patiently would be a better attitude IMO.

I also remember the thread that Terry is referencing where none other than MIke Reagan himself advised adding at least double the amount recommended in the manual for this engine. I think if you go back and look there was even a video attached.

I do indeed own the engine, but I haven't had any issues filling smoke fluid.  I did have a minor issue with the blowdown, but that's all better now.  From all the fluid soaked engines I've worked on, I can't see the damage from smoke fluid killing boards with great regularity.  I'm sure it can happen, but it's certainly not a certainty.  What does happen is smoke fluid hardens the plastic insulation on the wiring and makes it brittle, that is a real problem after being fluid soaked for some time.

Overfilling is a real problem, and I agree it's a user issue for the most part.  The issue is the difficulty for the average user to diagnose why he's not getting proper smoke in many cases.  Also, the problem of actually determining how much fluid is in the smoke unit is a factor.

FWIW, this is not just a Lionel issue, smoke units in general are probably one of the most problematic parts of model locomotives.  It's why this topic gets so much traction when it comes up.  It just happens that they're also one of the cooler aspects of the locomotive, that's why we put up with the issues.

Monster thread on filling Lionel smoke unit:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...f-smoke-fluid?page=1

It was not a VLBB though, as I thought.

Point, as I see it anyway, is that filling these things is really a Russian Roulette sort of deal.

One never really knows how saturated, or how dry the wicking may be. If it's truly dry, it may take a whole lot more fluid to saturate it than a more "normal" refilling.

Kind of like filling your car . . . except they have guages, the pumps have auto shut off and, oh yes, if you DO overfill, the excess immediately becomes obvious and you stop! So, really not like filling your car at all!

One could push the analogy . . .

I have worked on a ne BB smoke unit (broken wire) and never had an issue with any others.  It is the best designed locomotive Lionel has ever made in my opinion.  It opens up in seconds and very user friendly to work on.    The sounds, 4 chuff, and operation are excellent.

I use a pipe cleaner carefully inserted into the smoke stack and then removed. in this way I determine the wetness of the unit by feeling the pipe cleaner.

Bob C.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

I have worked on a ne BB smoke unit (broken wire) and never had an issue with any others.  It is the best designed locomotive Lionel has ever made in my opinion.  It opens up in seconds and very user friendly to work on.    The sounds, 4 chuff, and operation are excellent.

I do agree that it's a pretty clean design, and very easy to open up and access, no argument there.  There was a lot of design effort put into this one.

I have owned several of them and still own one.. I can see how fluid gets on the boards from the blowdown fill hole . Not really a good place for it. 

The RCMC is way back from the smoke unit.

Marty Fitzhenry,

You should change your forum handle to "Don Quixote". You have about the same chance at convincing these folks that you are correct, as he had tilting at windmills.

Fewer and fewer people take responsibility for their actions in our society, and fewer still pay attention to documentation.

I truly believe that most of the issues with our toy trains are owner-inflicted, myself included. We just hate to admit it!

Barry, you are very correct.    Many would like to go with something they heard and I must be an idiot trying to pass on first hand information.  I have always tried to share information but it is a waste of time.  I feel I might stay clear of fielding questions and just stay with the buy sell forum.  My trains run great as you know.  

Marty

 If you do not care to buy any newly made Lionel products, why have so much to comment about.  

As I already posted, I care about the future of the hobby.

 I read the book more than once. When I started this thread it wasn't to slam Lionel service or the B.B.if that were the case I would not own one. I have my first PW  trains from 1958 Most people think there brand new .There is no way I would do something to damage  this engine. What Lionel told me there was signs of smoke fluid inside the engine and caused damage to the PCBs. how much is that a few drops A whole bottle? I tend to run my smoke units on the dry side I would think the wick would be burnt rather than fluid inside the Loco.  I know people here don't me. I can tell you this I'm not to proud to admit when I'm wrong. In this case I don't think I am. 

MARTY

your input on this issue is important. So don't give up on stating your views.

Bob C.