Was wondering what I had derailed on a back storage track had not pulled the train out for a while, and it was hanging up when I tried to pull it out.
Moved enough other trains out of the way that I could get at it and found this on the bottom of the box cars??
Anyone know why this has happened everything else is OK no humidity problems?
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Die cast metal floors? Then, the dreaded ZINC PEST!!!
Plastic floors? Dunno.
Anyone else?
BTW....If it IS zinc pest, I'm not real confident anymore about Atlas solving this catastrophic issue re their upcoming shipment of (the former Weaver) Troop Cars.
....and the suggestion that they might make replacement floors for the Weaver cars so plagued.
Dontcha just love the suspense of it all???
...........
Look like 50-footers, correct? If so, they have metal floors. I had one a few years ago that did the same thing...first it warped, then it crumbled. Zinc pest I suppose.
I contact Atlas looking to order a new floor (otherwise the car was useless) and they were kind enough to provide one at no charge. Based on that, I'm guessing they were aware of this problem!
http://www.atlaso.com/opspd1.htm
Are these from the same time period as the Weaver cars with expanding frames?
That sorta looks like warping caused by the plastic being too close to something hot. Were the cars near some sort of heat source while on the storage track...such as a light bulb or some sort of trackside item that was overheating?
-Eric Siegel
Please contact Bill in our Customer Service department. There were a lot of products from different manufacturers produced at the same factory about this time that have exhibited the zinc pest problem, including the Weaver Troop Sleepers. That problem has nothing do to with the product design, or the frames we are producing for the Troop Sleepers at this time.
Please for those of us who are not aware,describe "Zinc Pest" Nick
Impurities in the process of casting zinc alloys causes the finished castings to deteriorate in a short period of time. The deterioration often causes the castings to expand. If a casting is contained, like in the case of a frame secured inside a car body, it warps as it tries to expand.
Zinc pest, which was a problem in the prewar period, and occasionally in the postwar period, in American production has resurfaced in Chinese production in the past 20 years. It's still relatively uncommon, but we have been sharing a few examples here. In fact, the topic has been discussed at length in the past two weeks and was still active just several days ago.
You might want to acquaint yourself with the search function on this forum. The answers are typically already there.
ericstrains.com posted:That sorta looks like warping caused by the plastic being too close to something hot. Were the cars near some sort of heat source while on the storage track...such as a light bulb or some sort of trackside item that was overheating?
-Eric Siegel
Eric, the splitting of the metal seems to show where the bow up is in the second image as cracks.
Those are trainman box cars that have plastic floors. They use the old Roco molds. Is there heat or a radiator below that storage track? This cant be Zinc pest as they are not die cast floors
Humidity does not affect consumer plastics like styrene and ABS (I'm sure that there are some exotics and/or some designed to interact with humidity). It affects metals only as an oxidant, if the metal is capable of oxidation ("rust").
I have heard that humidity can add to the "zinc rot" process, but I don't see how. However, I also am not qualified to say with certainty one way or the other (of course, on Forums - anybody's - that seems to not be an inhibitor for many).
Did I miss it, or do we even yet know with certainty what the floor/frame material is?
bluelinec4 posted:Those are trainman box cars that have plastic floors. They use the old Roco molds. Is there heat or a radiator below that storage track? This cant be Zinc pest as they are not die cast floors
Thanks, didn't know Roco had made a 50' car. I think these cars are Atlas O Master line.
C'mon guys. Look before declaring your opinion. Those are not the Roco cars, which were made in Austria in the 1970s. Look at the picture. It clearly says "Atlas O" and "Made in China" on the length-wise supports.
I'd go along with the floor being made out of plastic. Have to wait and see what the owner of these cars has to say. Atlas description of these cars says "die cast chassis" which looks right. The floors are obviously separate.. hmmmmm I'll bet that they are made of plastic.
Jim : )
Paul Graf posted:Please contact Bill in our Customer Service department. There were a lot of products from different manufacturers produced at the same factory about this time that have exhibited the zinc pest problem, including the Weaver Troop Sleepers. That problem has nothing do to with the product design, or the frames we are producing for the Troop Sleepers at this time.
Is this a change of heart? I spoke with Bill at York, The Big E, and email, and his general response was:
" <<<crickets chirping>>> "
I have about ten pieces of rolling stock I purchased in the 2010 time frame that had various truck components fall apart from zinc pest. I broke my 'No New Atlas' vow and ordered six troop cars. Are you saying Atlas is now acknowledging this and hopefully supplying replacement components? A little to late though as I've purchased new trucks for the damaged ones. Here's to hoping the Atlas troop cars will have better results!!!!!
I just found one of my DL&W hoppers had the diecast under frames on both ends with lots of cracks. I foudn this because the screw mount nub just broke off, and the truck fell off.
I have also had many problems with the steel reefers. Atlas did provide replacement trucks for ones I still had, but by the time I got some feedback from them, I had thrown away 2-3 pairs that fell apart.
so far my 1937 boxcars seem OK, but I have not inspected them
Honestly I am afraid to to look at some of these underframes. I probably have 200 Atlas cars which is a big investment, and this problem really scares me.
Jim R. posted:C'mon guys. Look before declaring your opinion. Those are not the Roco cars, which were made in Austria in the 1970s. Look at the picture. It clearly says "Atlas O" and "Made in China" on the length-wise supports.
The post stated ROCO molds were used not that these are ROCO cars made in Austria. Please read the post correctly before you respond.
I don't see a response yet from the original poster to the question whether the frame/floor is plastic or metal. Until that is established, it sure would be nice to hold off on speculation about zinc pest or other causes.
If it's the 50' Master Line box cars, I'm gonna cry. I've got many of these packed away and never thought there would be this problem to deal with. 
Fred
Those are definitely the 50 footers. And, I have one of these that I never took out of the box. Now, I've got to go digging....
bluelinec4 posted:Hate to tell you guys but those are not 50 foot master line cars Its a 40 foot plug door box car. Oh yeah the plug door is molded into the car and doesnt open. Master line are completely different animals TRAINMAN . Which By the way use the Tooling and molds from the old Roco cars It is NOT A Roco car.
This is the same car
Not sure of the reason for the sarcasm, especially since you're incorrect.
1) Atlas did NOT use the Roco tooling/molds for the TrainMan production. They definitely DID use the same designs, but not the same tooling.
2) The original poster's cars are definitely Master line 50' Plug Door PS-1 Boxcars, not Trainman. Check out item #8857 here:
http://www.atlaso.com/opspd1.htm
TRW
The underframes look a lot different to me.
OP's
BLUELINEC4's
PAUL ROMANO posted:Jim R. posted:C'mon guys. Look before declaring your opinion. Those are not the Roco cars, which were made in Austria in the 1970s. Look at the picture. It clearly says "Atlas O" and "Made in China" on the length-wise supports.
The post stated ROCO molds were used not that these are ROCO cars made in Austria. Please read the post correctly before you respond.
I see your point if you mean you thought the Roco underframe molds were altered to indicate the Atlas O/China designation on 40-foot cars. But these aren't Roco if they are 50-foot cars, as the second replied noted and on which my reply is based. And another poster noted such tooling was not re-used for Chinese production. So again, not Roco.
I thinking it's zinc pest, too. If the frame is diecast, that's certainly the answer. But I'm not familiar enough with Atlas O's current 50-foot plug-door boxcar to be certain it's not plastic.
PaperTRW posted:bluelinec4 posted:Hate to tell you guys but those are not 50 foot master line cars Its a 40 foot plug door box car. Oh yeah the plug door is molded into the car and doesnt open. Master line are completely different animals TRAINMAN . Which By the way use the Tooling and molds from the old Roco cars It is NOT A Roco car.
This is the same car
Not sure of the reason for the sarcasm, especially since you're incorrect.
1) Atlas did NOT use the Roco tooling/molds for the TrainMan production. They definitely DID use the same designs, but not the same tooling.
2) The original poster's cars are definitely Master line 50' Plug Door PS-1 Boxcars, not Trainman. Check out item #8857 here:
http://www.atlaso.com/opspd1.htm
TRW
Concerning your first point, that's what I recall, too. Atlas worked with Roco in N, HO and O in the 1970s, but retained none of the tooling, as far as I know.
Roco continued using N scale tooling for its own line of freight cars in the 1980s. The N scale locomotive tooling was never used again. It's HO locomotive tooling was used in partnership with Con-Cor that same decade. The O scale line disappeared, presumably because Roco retained the tooling but could find no market for it, that decade.
Atlas produced similar products on its own after that point, but not from Roco tooling.
So the assumption that these warped-frame cars are Roco molds is likely not based on fact.
Ok, I did some sleuthing and...
The car number of the 1st car in the first photo matches 4 out of 5 number of the one as listed by a number of posters at http://www.atlaso.com/opspd1.htm as well as matching on every details I can make out.
I also found a Milwaukee road version 9858-1 from the same release (2007) with photos of the box on ebay, the box clearly states Master Line and it has a Die-Cast underframe.
Here is a photo of the underside of a Santa Fe version from the previous years release (2006).
I have two Atlas O Master line PS-1 Box cars, not the Plug door as the OP, but a single door and a double door. Would anyone know if the underframes on these models could be of the same batch and tooling? Both are less than 7 years old.
Ironhorseman posted:
Here is a photo of the underside of a Santa Fe version from the previous years release (2006).
I have two Atlas O Master line PS-1 Box cars, not the Plug door as the OP, but a single door and a double door. Would anyone know if the underframes on these models could be of the same batch and tooling? Both are less than 7 years old.
The CP car posted shows Aug 2007 as expected delivery date. What Atlas number are yours?
Big Jim posted:The underframes look a lot different to me.
Try rotating 1 of them 180 degrees?
mwb posted:Big Jim posted:The underframes look a lot different to me.
Try rotating 1 of them 180 degrees?
To what end?
Ironhorseman posted:Ok, I did some sleuthing and...
The car number of the 1st car in the first photo matches 4 out of 5 number of the one as listed by a number of posters at http://www.atlaso.com/opspd1.htm as well as matching on every details I can make out.
I also found a Milwaukee road version 9858-1 from the same release (2007) with photos of the box on ebay, the box clearly states Master Line and it has a Die-Cast underframe.
Here is a photo of the underside of a Santa Fe version from the previous years release (2006).
I have two Atlas O Master line PS-1 Box cars, not the Plug door as the OP, but a single door and a double door. Would anyone know if the underframes on these models could be of the same batch and tooling? Both are less than 7 years old.
Right die-cast underframe. no mention of what the floor is made of. Its plain to see that the floor and the frame are separate parts.
Jim
Rotating 180 degrees
To what end ?
They look like mirror images.
If you rotate one 180 degrees they may be the same frame
Try it, just to humor us
What is this, a game of "Blind Man's Bluff"?
Go humor yourself!
Jim R. posted:Impurities in the process of casting zinc alloys causes the finished castings to deteriorate in a short period of time. The deterioration often causes the castings to expand. If a casting is contained, like in the case of a frame secured inside a car body, it warps as it tries to expand.
Zinc pest, which was a problem in the prewar period, and occasionally in the postwar period, in American production has resurfaced in Chinese production in the past 20 years. It's still relatively uncommon, but we have been sharing a few examples here. In fact, the topic has been discussed at length in the past two weeks and was still active just several days ago.
You might want to acquaint yourself with the search function on this forum. The answers are typically already there.
I am well aware of the search function of this Forum.It was just a simple question as you were quickly willing to compose a two paragraph answer.No harm done.Nick
rockstars1989 posted:Jim R. posted:Impurities in the process of casting zinc alloys causes the finished castings to deteriorate in a short period of time. The deterioration often causes the castings to expand. If a casting is contained, like in the case of a frame secured inside a car body, it warps as it tries to expand.
Zinc pest, which was a problem in the prewar period, and occasionally in the postwar period, in American production has resurfaced in Chinese production in the past 20 years. It's still relatively uncommon, but we have been sharing a few examples here. In fact, the topic has been discussed at length in the past two weeks and was still active just several days ago.
You might want to acquaint yourself with the search function on this forum. The answers are typically already there.
I am well aware of the search function of this Forum.It was just a simple question as you were quickly willing to compose a two paragraph answer.No harm done.Nick
Absolutely. I was suggesting the option so no one would have to wait for an answer. And to honest, I have had trouble with the forum search function recently, because a post had a rather significant misspelling of a proper name that was critical to the search. Zinc pest also can be readily searched using Google.
The frames are the same. I took the image above, split it and rotated the bottom frame 180 degrees. Both say Atlas and made in China on them.
OP: Do you have the boxes these came in? If so please share a picture of the end flaps with catalog numbers.
Chris
LVHR
I posted the original photos and post on this topic.
Just to confirm they are metal I took them apart and one frame fell apart.
Got to go through some of the other cars I have and see if there is a problem.
The Bachmann trolley was another of these zinc rot topics a short while back. Mine is still looking good. I have to go dig through my other cars and take a look for other cars with this problem.
Will be in touch with Atlas after I check the rest of my freight cars extensive collection. Thanks for the comments.
I have checked just about all of my Atlas cars and have found one reefer car that has this problem, a Ballantine reefer car.
lehighline posted:The frames are the same. I took the image above, split it and rotated the bottom frame 180 degrees. Both say Atlas and made in China on them.
OP: Do you have the boxes these came in? If so please share a picture of the end flaps with catalog numbers.
Chris
LVHR
Well, you and a couple of other here missed the point COMPLETELY! Did you not follow and comprehend the context of this thread from the very beginning?
Yes those two frames are of the same type of model. This is a photo from the original poster "KL356".
It doesn't matter which way or how many degrees you flip them, they are NOT the same frame that poster "BLUELINEC4" said that they were!
Paul Graf posted:Please contact Bill in our Customer Service department. There were a lot of products from different manufacturers produced at the same factory about this time that have exhibited the zinc pest problem, including the Weaver Troop Sleepers. That problem has nothing do to with the product design, or the frames we are producing for the Troop Sleepers at this time.
I did contact Bill regarding a caboose I had witha similar problem and he was very helpful. Zinc pest/rot was evident as truck bolsters and detail mountings were crumbling and falling off. Then the whole thing broke into pieces. 
I spoke to Bill Serratelli at Atlas in reference to the warped floor problem and he stated that new floors have been ordered and should be available in a "couple of months". In the meantime Bill recommended that I remove the bad floor to prevent any possible damage to the body of the car. I removed the floor and it promptly broke into three parts. Below is what is left of the bad floor.
Well After I realized I was wrong that this was a Trainman car I went through my Atlas cars and I have the same exact car It was brand new never out of the box Still taped in and guess what Look at this
Yes I have over 100 Atlas cars and have found 7 with destroyed floors. Stored in climate control environment. I have just had enough of these issues, and the dead engine issues, that I have just given up and look at it as me being the fool. I stopped buying. Throw the broken crap out with much pain and moved on to firearms as a hobby. No more...how long do you keep banging your head against the wall???? Too bad I loved this hobby but the quality of all manufacturers is hopeless.
BobbyD posted:Ironhorseman posted:
Here is a photo of the underside of a Santa Fe version from the previous years release (2006).
I have two Atlas O Master line PS-1 Box cars, not the Plug door as the OP, but a single door and a double door. Would anyone know if the underframes on these models could be of the same batch and tooling? Both are less than 7 years old.
The CP car posted shows Aug 2007 as expected delivery date. What Atlas number are yours?
The item numbers I have are 8875-2 and 8428-1.
Atlas also has a big problem with brass roof walks and contaminated metal parts. Some will deny it but it’s real. Many of the AAR 40 footer car ladders and grab irons warp then just crumble like cookies sitting on the shelf. Even on non-run NOS, I receive cars with pieces floating around the carton.
PS master series brass painted walk ways buckle when the heat is on then return flat when cold.
Unless I see new advancements in tooling I avoid their products. Lionel & MTH later models are superior blowing away those old designs with rugged reliability and lower prices.
I'm not whinging I have lots of freight cars about 300 of all makes and buying more all the time, but.........
There is a history of problems right across the board in O scale not only with Atlas and Weaver but also with BRASS parts falling off on some of the older boxcars from Precision Scale/ Iron Horse Models were problematic I have a couple now where the solder is deteriorating and they are painted to make it worse. I still love the scale, and have no intention of ever leaving it till they cart me off in a box. Roo.
I really didn't want to hear about this plague in Atlas reefers!
colorado hirailer posted:I really didn't want to hear about this plague in Atlas reefers!
So far I havent seen it in any of my reefers This is a 50 foot plug door box car
bluelinec4 posted:colorado hirailer posted:I really didn't want to hear about this plague in Atlas reefers!
So far I havent seen it in any of my reefers This is a 50 foot plug door box car
With the 40' steel reefers being Intermountain tools with a 1 piece plastic body and floor, all we have to worry about is the redone metal bolster and trim detail.
N5CJonny posted:I have checked just about all of my Atlas cars and have found one reefer car that has this problem, a Ballantine reefer car.
As previously posted, it looks like wooden reefers are not immune to the problem.
Which run is that Ballantine reefer The first or second? You can tell by the road number. If its 109 or 100 its the second run . I have over 100 Ballantine reefers and haven't seen it on any Most are the first run though
Ben, here is a better photo of the car body
Looks like second run Ben as the picture shows car #102
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