Was lead paint used on postwar Lionel trains?

My sister just turned 50. She chewed the paint off her crib as a baby, before there was lead free paint. Today she is bi-polar  (not the Milwaukee Road kind) and has other mental and emotional issues. Maybe there is a connection and maybe not, but why risk it?

On the other hand, I shoot airguns and "real" guns both with lead ammunition. I fix and run old pre and post war O-gauge  trains. I use solder with lead in it. I feel I am pretty sane and very smart. But then again I am almost 52 and play with toy trains and "BB guns"!

Obviously I was kidding when I said postwar trains were not meant for children...
I would expect 99% of people on OGR forum played with postwar lionel trains when they were little. I have tons of postwar trains and feel they provide great entertainment for children along with a learning experience that no other toy can provide. I was pointing out how rediclious it is that someone would question the saftey of one of the most successful toys ever made.

BigJohn,

 

Surely your Lionel trains not meant for children comment was tongue in cheek.  I don't remember any Lionel commercial that didn't have children in it.   

 

I remember going to the LIonel showroom in NYC  around Thanksgiving as a kid and there were times the line to get in was out the door.  

 

On the other hand, maybe if more adults played with trains there would be a lot less stressed out people running around.  

 

Ed

 

Holy sow, I had bacon for breakfast this morning. Sure wish I would have read this yesterday...

In 7th or 8th grade (mid sixties) science class the teacher had a big jar of mercury that was passed around for us to play with in the same manner you describe here. Probably what's wrong with my memory these days (and why I can't remember if it was 7th or 8th grade, I'm leaning toward 7th?), surely it couldn't be an age factor?

Judging from a few of the responses, there's a third thing: Exposing kids to Lionel postwar trains may cause them to grow up into cranky misanthropes. Forewarned is forearmed. Welcome to the forum.

 

RM

RTR,

 

i also remember getting to play with mercury.  But for the life of me I don't know why but I just can't remember going to school.  I must have, after all where else could I have gotten mercury to play with. 

Crazy 'bout a Mercury. Gonna buy me a Mercury and cruise it up and down the road.

Many an old Mercury was turned into a way cool lead sled!  Wouldn't want to chew on one though.   LOL

I can understand the concern for lead-based paints and toddlers that are still in the handle/feel stage in conjunction with thumb sucking.

 

I'm also confident that the original poster is likely to be on top of things when the trains are to be enjoyed. (i.e. Not letting the toddler chew/suck on the trains/etc.) Otherwise he wouldn't be asking the question.  He's concerned, so he will supervise until the children are older and more cognizant of such issues.

 

It is encouraging that many of us have survived a childhood that had so few restraints in regards to exposure to hazardous materials/et al. Therefore, I'll just bet that the original poster's children will likewise be just fine.

 

As for me, I too, have been exposed to a lot of the stuff that's bad for you, including some really nasty stuff in industrial settings.  And so far, I ain't got none dain bramage to me worry about.

 

As for lead, it was said: "It comes out in the hair."

 

Okay... then I may have a bit of an issue. It seems the lead pushed my hair out and perhaps the lead has stayed in?  Or, hopefully the lead came out with the hair. Either way, the result was the same.  Darn.

What?  And get lip prints on them????? 

Maybe it WAS the mercury and not age?  

 

I still remember going to school, but a friend of mine asked me if I could name my teachers from school. Only a couple names came up, the rest were blank, especially after the playing with mercury years, can't remember science teachers name, but I can still vaguely picture her face and what she looked like.

 

 

Different Mercury, I think that one was Steve Miller's, or the one he wanted to buy anyway.

First, I too, enjoy this post topic and it has brought forth some very good discussion.  Yes, we all have concerns for the health of our children/grand children, as all good parents should.  Yes, let us get all the kids we can interested in model railroading / Lionel trains.  Let us all share the joy, education and creativity with younger generations as well as those in the hobby.  My 3 children grew up sharing the same trains my father and I enjoyed through my growing up periods, up to the time of my first son's early years.

 

Our hobby is more than simply a hobby... it is a big part of American history.  From 1900 and before, to the history and memories of many American families.

I'm sixty-seven and have been playing with trains for about sixty of those years and you know I can't remember any of my friends having a problem with elevated lead in our systems.

Of course none of us ever ate the paint. 

Or, have you just forgotten?   And what else have you forgotten.......

Like gg1man, I have played with trains most of my life. I am 63, played with trains since I was 5.  The first was a Kusan (KMT), 2 rail O gauge made in Kentucky, I believe.  But, we did have a Lionel and track on a piece of plywood.  I do not recall ever seeing it run, just me, at 4 or 5, using a hammer and screwdriver trying to find out why it didn't run!  Oh well, at least I have learned and more careful, now.  Have had my own Lionel, and others since 1977, since Christmas 1958 and still have the first one from then.  I have worked in construction all my life, exposure to many elements over time of 40 plus years.  I have Hazwoper training, a CDL with HAZMAT and tanker endorsements, performed lead check tests in plants, worn all types of respirators and acid/chemical suits in plants.  The possibility of ever a need to worry over exposure from running my trains?  I do not think so, and I have no health issues related to any exposure other than working my body too hard as an iron worker.  The joints and muscles talk to me daily, and I have learned to listen!  But trains are nothing but pure enjoyment.

bajinnova,

 

Will you be posting pictures of the trains you have? Taking precautions with very young children is always a good thing. I started teaching my daughter what to touch and not to touch at age three. She loved watching my dads PW Lionel and Marx at Christmas time. Her thing was putting her farm animals in the gondolas.

 

Have fun with the trains! Fixing them, operating them and teaching your children to respect your wishes regarding them.  In the end, You and your family will enjoy them!

Interesting post and some amusing responses. I don't think one has to run scared from every suggested or questioned threat, but there's nothing wrong with taking a reasonable look at it and acting accordingly. Some, however, think seem to think that the questions shouldn't even be asked, as if ignorance was a virtue. I'm reminded of my mother-in-law, who insisted on thawing out frozen turkeys overnight on the kitchen counter. Her answer to suggestions that she use a safer method was always that she never killed anyone that way yet, as if killing someone is what it would take to make her change, rather than paying even minimal attention to those who might know more on the subject or were born after bacteria were discovered. Some things likely don't pose a threat, like eating a dropped cookie after invoking the "five second" rule. Others may be a bit more risky. I prefer not to mock those asking the questions and simply make my own choices based on the best information I have.

If we got caught puting a pencil in our mouth the Nuns would slap us silly, now what idoit would stick a paint chip in there mouths. O that looks good I think I will eat the paint off the window.

John,

 

Your post conjures up some painful memories of 12 years education by the nuns and brothers.  I have often thought that chalk throwing by nuns should be made an Olympic sport. Never could understand how they could consistently manage to wing you in the head with the chalk from 10' away, sidearm nonetheless.

 

This led issue with trains IMO is, like many other things today, way overblown.  No question led it quite harmful when ingested by whatever means.  But other than being in a room where some one is sanding the paint off and inhaling the dust, or chewing on the train, the chances of any harm coming from PW trains seems non-existent. 

 

Ed

Way off topic but honestly you needn't worry about it unless you are consuming vast amounts of processed meats, then sure reduction will be beneficial (I.e huge reduction in sodium intake). Be careful about what main stream media reports as they tend to exaggerate the actual evidence and play on a few key words within the actual study. It's best to go directly to the source and look at the facts and methods used to gain the information. Be weary of the publisher as well. Like the whole red wine as a replacement for exercise! Nope, very weak evidence of resveratrol providing a slight benefit in mice. Anyways thought I'd share a bit of knowledge from my current area of study 

Yep, sensationalism runs amok in today's media.  Anything to get the ratings higher and make more denero.  Always best is to inform yourself, think logically about associated topics, make choices best for you and yours as you feel is best.  As I told my children daily as they grew up...learn something new every day, be honest and help others whenever you can.

Ok, now for a serious reply.  Everyone so far has expressed their OPINIONS, smart *** comments and off-topic banter.
I have a now 5-year old child, and I actually tested several representative pieces for lead using paint scrapings taken from unconspicuous locations. I tested a 2037 steamer, a yellow 6656 stock car, and a red 6464 box car. None exhibited a positive indicator for the presence of lead. I was therefore satisfied that my postwar trains posed no toxicological hazard to my child.

Wow, thanks.  Between this and Lionel's statement it seems like postwar trains are probably lead-free.

 

It's a shame that the medical community is so stupid to have been fooled into believing that lead is a danger to kids.  You know, since it's all just a bunch of hype from fear-mongering sissies according to most of the people here.

Greg,
It would seem your sample size is rather small to make the bold conclusion that postwar lionel is lead free.

Greg, and others....  Without knowing what size sample area you tested, glad to see the results came up negative.  I performed lead testing many times in chemical plants on the iron and structures.  This I did to verify, or to identify, lead hazards in areas built back in the early twenties or later.  Testing was performed before demolition or restructuring was undertaken by craft personnel.  To have a positive test result, it does not take much to swab and get the results.  Lead testing kits are still available at many welding supply stores, some hardware stores.  Yes, the hazards were once greater than now days, use your own discretion as you feel necessary.  

Big John,

I did not conclude that all postwar Lionel is lead free. I sampled enough to satisfy my curiosity, and to reach a comfort level with my family's exposure. Make your own judgments. For my part, I wasn't going to chip the paint off my entire train collection to achieve a larger sample population. 

bajinnova:

 

Your question was a legitimate and important one that deserved a reply. Unfortunately, almost all the responses to your post are from idiots who pile on with their irrelevant personal anecdotes, jokes or ridicule. Most should know better, and many just want attention. In particular, the worst of the dismissive vitriol seems to spew from the older hobbyists. In their time, they were taught that smoking was a healthy practice, and they similarly eschew seat belts, vaccines, and helmets. Shame on them. Ignore it and make the best decision for your family's health.

While it is quite convenient to complain about most of the replies on this thread I will point out the opposite. The original question posed really cannot be answered with any authority. Paint testing and child safe toys were not standardized when these postwar items were produced. The paints used then were not tested for lead content and likely the manufacturers do not exist today to contact them to see if someone has the appropriate MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for those paints.

 

So, for asking a question that could never be completely and correctly answered here the posts that were placed seem to want to reassure the original person who posted that it would likely be okay. Nothing is for certain. If only experts are wanted to respond then I think that either the original post should have stated that only those with chemical testing knowledge should have replied.

If one really wanted to know, couldn't they use one of the lead test kits that can be purchased at any home improvement store such as Lowes or Home Depot?

Maybe.  Those are more likely designed to test house paint and they may or not be appropriate for the type(s) of paint used on models from the questioned time period.  I don't know what the required sample size is as well those kits use; read out is probably based on a colorimetric metal specific dye interaction.  If you really want to test your paint, send 100 mg (used to be at least that amount) off for a ICP-AE testing at Galbraith labs - I'm probably wrong on the amount... but anybody can look this all up any time they want.  Been a while since I've sent any metal analysis samples out. 

quote:

 I don't know what the required sample size is as well those kits use

 

I was thinking of these lead test swabs.

According to the copy, they detect lead on the surface of the item being tested, and work on paint, steel, vinyl, and other plastics.

 

Non-quantitative y/n swipe off the surface which if the surface is baked on hard sealed paint, may not work and also then if they do, no idea how much is really there other than to trigger the detection limit of the test.  I can see how their use would be very popular among panic button pushers.  Those would probably turn red in the package in my lab environment,   They remind me of the remediation clearance guys telling me in near panic that they detected lead in my lab.......that also failed to notice the 32 lb lead brick 3' away holding the door open.....  I always wondered if they ever found the thorium?

 

I'd rather opt for a reliable quantitative assay that would provide real data. 

True, the lead test swabs do not give you precise quantity of lead/lead based particles that may be present.  But, they do inform of the confirmation of lead/lead based sources in the tested sample.

  This is the same type sampling procedure utilized in the industrial work environment.  I, and many others, as Industrial Safety and Hazard personnel made use of swabs to give indication of lead contamination in and on varied surfaces.  Lab test results, no doubt, will inform of greater specifics concerning lead contamination.  But, for a quick, reliable lead indication, the use of test swabs is used in many industrial and construction type practices.