York April 2016 Musings...

Was that the Reading T-1 under one of the Alleghenies?  What did you think of it?

Another great post, BTW.

Yes... the T-1 loco was on display directly beneath the Allegheny.  Unfortunately, I didn't grab a picture of it, since I didn't want to monopolize time in front of the display.  I would say the T-1 is definitely not as detailed as the Allegheny -- rather more in the league of detail that you see in the 0-8-0 switcher photos (as best as I can recall).  Still a step up from the last time Lionel released a T-1 in the MPC/LTI days... which is practically ancient history now.  I'm sure most folks thinking about a T-1 will be very happy with this model.

Lionel's Legacy steam locomotive display also included the American Freedom Train GS-4 as well as the UP FEF-3 (in the greyhound paint scheme).  I was a bit disappointed in the paint job on the AFT GS-4... didn't strike me as being as crisp as it could be.  But it's also a pre-production model.  I wish I would have grabbed a photo to illustrate what I'm trying to convey, but perhaps somebody else will post a photo.  The FEF-3 is definitely on my radar screen (as #8444 in black w/whitewall drivers), but the UP Greyhound FEF-3 locomotive was too high on the display for me to grab a good close-up photo of it.

All in all, I've gotta say I'm glad I didn't pre-order any of the steam locomotives in Lionel's latest Signature Catalog.  I'd much rather wait to see the production product that's actually delivered.  And as I've alluded to a few times, the pre-order prices are really up there nowadays.  So if it's possible that some of the products may be available at better prices after they hit the street, I'm OK with waiting/gambling.  If they sell out, that's OK too... 'cause none of these are must-have's for me anyway.

David

The T1 was a 3D print, not an actual pre-production model. I dont know the extent of detail applied to it, nor am I an expert on it, but it looked pretty decent to me. 

David, you sort of covered the SD60E. Lionel also had a model on the shelf. On one hand, Lionel got the modified dust bin correct (its flattened off and has a fan on top), but the side intakes and extra stuff that NS added onto it werent as pronounced as they should have been. I also couldn't get past that aweful underframe they used. The whole thing rides highwater, the wheels look too small. It takes what should be a great piece and just makes it look disproportioned. MTH on the other hand, got all the intakes and stuff correct, then screwed up and didnt modify the top of the dust bin. They claim tooling, blah blah blah. There's no reason why they couldnt block off the mold to leave a cavity in the roof and cast a brass lid for the dust bin. Its an inch square at best, and its a subtraction, not an addition. I'm not seeing their rationale other than lazyness. Its riding on the updated SD50/60 underframe, and is much lower on it than Lionel's model.  Neither is 100% but I think the MTH model is going to be easier to work with if have the fortitude to cut the roof open and fix it. 

Mike Reagan said the T-1 was 3D printed, along with the GG1. Pretty darn good printing if I say so myself. The painting already looks very sharp.

David's pretty spot on about the detail. Though I'll be holding onto the older Lionel LTI engines due to their bargain prices, seeing the T-1 back in the Lionel line is something I welcome with open arms, and it'll be cool to see the various production models.

I thought photography wasn't allowed at York?  I remember seeing signs on the doors...

Nice photo, Thomas.

Anyone else think the detail level is probably (going to be) comparable to the Milwaukee Road #261 and family?

Rocky (David) Mountaineer,

Did you, by chance, see the Lionel 2016 National Train Day prototype boxcar with 027 style passenger car graphics? It is quite quirky, quite unusual, a bit like a Saab, you either love or hate the design? I am asking since you seem to be a fan (previous posts) of dealer appreciation, national train day promotional boxcars.

Always good to hear when someone has the big "C" under control, a Dunham experience may just be the (train) pill you need to further your improving train health.

enjoy your trains...

Garrett76 posted:

I thought photography wasn't allowed at York?  I remember seeing signs on the doors...

That was true across the board until a couple of years ago.  Then the TCA Eastern Division stepped out of the Dark Ages and adjusted the rules for the 21st Century.    Photography is now allowed in the dealer halls.  Still not allowed in the member halls though -- except it's OK to photograph display layouts in a couple of the member halls.

David

Good luck with getting Dunham to do a layout for you.

Don't worry about getting a REALLY expensive gift for your wife. When I started with York over 20 years ago and was buying a lot of stuff, my wife was always supportive. What did I get, she told me whether she liked it or didn't like it, etc. Now I never bought trains with the thought of selling them or as an "investment". But when my wife saw what I bought, she would then go out and buy jewelry. Good jewelry. And without getting too anal about it, and certainly with no need to consider either an "investment", she has done a LOT better with her jewelry than I've done with the trains. 

But if you're willing to take some advice, don't go north of Lake George in the winter. It can get really cold up there.

Gerry

wtjohn posted:

... Did you, by chance, see the Lionel 2016 National Train Day prototype boxcar with 027 style passenger car graphics? It is quite quirky, quite unusual, a bit like a Saab, you either love or hate the design? ...  

Hhmmm... I missed that completely.  That's the tough part of doing York as a day-trip.  It's too easy to overlook something like that.

Will need to keep an eye out for it.

Thx for the well-wishes too!  I consider myself very, VERY fortunate right now.

David

Great report David and thanks for letting me lighten that load a bit for you that you brought.  My friends love those Atlas reefers and were very jealous of the deal.  That is why I try to convince them that there are better places to look than the bay sometimes and they should join the forum.  

Garrett76 posted:

I thought photography wasn't allowed at York?  I remember seeing signs on the doors...

As I walked into the Silver hall, at 9:00 AM, a voice came over the loud speaker that no photography was permitted.  I would have loved to come home with a cell phone full of photographs.  I guess I should have gone with the notion of getting forgiveness.....LOL

Good morning, my wife and I was looking at one of the layouts and she spied a scene she thought she would take a picture with her phone.

While she was focusing a gentlemen came over and in the utmost rudeness told her ne photos, don't you know the rules !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We just turned around and walked away.

I know this next comment will raise some eye brows and comments but if you are a dealer and if yourself or the people you have working in your booth are so miserable and you have a attitude, then why don't you stay home.

You are there to sell your product, so be a salesman !!!!!!!!!!

My  company attends and display our drilling equipment at trade shows every year that make York look like a yard sale.

If my employees acted like some of the people selling trains in York toward a prospected customer they would be looking for new employment !!!!!!

Dan Padova posted:

Garrett76 posted:

I thought photography wasn't allowed at York?  I remember seeing signs on the doors...

As I walked into the Silver hall, at 9:00 AM, a voice came over the loud speaker that no photography was permitted.  I would have loved to come home with a cell phone full of photographs.  I guess I should have gone with the notion of getting forgiveness.....LOL

Actually the details are that it's OK in Dealer (Orange, Purple) Halls and also in the Display layout areas ONLY (no pics of personal table holder's stuff) in the member halls that have layouts. 

So any Display Layout area considered a member hall (they include Black, the easy way to tell is the hours match the member halls with tables) it's OK in layout areas.  Dealer Halls is OK anywhere, obviously including any layout(s).  So if someone got scolded in a Dealer Hall, the person doing it was incorrect to complain about it.

"Could it be I might be a future owner of a Dunham Studio layout???   

Well, let's just say I'm seriously considering it.  Lots to sleep on for a while to be sure.  Still a lot to think about... and there would be a bunch of things I'd need to transport to Clarke's studio, as I've been accumulating goodies to build this layout for quite some time now, including all the track (MTH Scaletrax), four Lionel #305 Hellgate Bridges, some Korber buildings, a couple of curved trestle bridges from Bridge Solutions (remember that company?), and even a "centerpiece" 7-foot TW Trainworx Design arch bridge still in kit form.  And that's just to mention a few items right off the top of my head. "

I certainly understand your thinking.  Time becomes our most precious commodity.

I walked around the York meet this weekend and was reminded of the bittersweet qualities of life.  I liked seeing old friends and remember thinking how much older they looked (maybe I shouldn't look in the mirror, either? ).  And I stumbled across some childhood toys that I hadn't seen in 50+ years.  I was reminded of my fantastic childhood and my now departed parents.  It was a bit tough.  I, too still have lots of things to build and to do.  And with retirement and a move now in the near future (15 months), I need to give thought to how quickly the next layout might get built.

As you say, much to think about.

George

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

While at the MTH booth,......<snip>.................Generally speaking, I walked away with the impression that scheduling Asian factory manufacturing time is no small feat nowadays.  Multiple importers have told me near-horror stories that none of us could ever imagine.  Finding manufactures is getting more challenging.  And when good manufacturers are  found, they want more $$$$ each year to manufacture similar or identical product(s).  Then each importer ends up adjusting and re-adjusting production priorities multiple times throughout the year, so production schedules are in a constant state of flux.  Welcome to toy/model train production in 2016+.  
................................................................................

 

..........................  I saw TONS of 2015 BTO product at York on Thursday that was priced significantly below the pre-order prices for those items -- and that's something we thought we wouldn't see happening in the BTO era.  One of the most notable and aggressive BTO bargains I saw was Lionel's NYC ESE passenger set for $1400!    If that didn't move by Saturday afternoon, then it just proves how over-saturated this market is becoming.

I wonder if Lionel will really feel the price push-back this year from model train enthusiasts.  Time will tell.  When I was grabbing these iPhone pics, three guys that looked to be in their fifties were commenting to each other that they were so glad they purchased many of their trains years ago when they did... because they didn't want to spend these kinds of prices for the new stuff.  And they were looking straight at the Legacy steam locomotives Lionel had on display when they made those comments.  I just smiled inside, because you all know those have been my exact sentiments for a couple of years now with Lionel.

The MTH challenges on production are interesting, only because MTH was so vocal about setting up their own factory to theoretically limit such issues years ago.  Maybe it did help them to some extent when many other O Gauge manufacturers had their ties with production factories severed involuntarily due to higher level management/corporate decisions on the factory side, but it seems it was certainly not a cure-all.

I'm not sure none of us saw BTO reductions coming .  Certainly some BTO items disappear if you don't order them, it's probably hit and miss.  I think a lot of us discussed at the time how BTO is basically the latest flavor/variant of  previous descriptions of "limited", "dealer allocated", etc. from the past.  It's not really a new concept.  I recall probably 10 or more years ago seeing the warning on a pre-order sheet that "company X is not making a lot of excess trains these days, so make sure you order what you want..".  This was driven by the late 90's "in between" years when production jumped from a more manageable number of items in each catalog to the ginormous offerings we have today.  Back then, the companies did "guess" a little more I think, as you could probably find most items in surplus at a meet like York with relative certainty.

The conversation you witnessed with the guys in their 50's at the Lionel booth is a bit telling, even if on a small sample space.  Supposedly guys in that age range are Lionel's exact (or approaching) target audience. (kids grown, nearly out of college, mortgage paid off, etc.)  Granted your observation was of only a small subset of people, and the other side of that coin is the excitement we see here once in a while like when the VL Big Boy was announced.  Far more than a few people here went for that (many still happy with it, I think, though I was not a purchaser), even with it's large increment in price point (both MSRP and street). 

While not a deep discussion, I have had a similar exchange with my main dealer a few times recently.  I think he's asked me twice now if I still buy engines.  I am still a relatively frequent customer in terms of pre-orders, but he's right that I have not pr-ordered an engine in a while(mostly rolling stock and accessories, and maybe a smaller diesel here and there).  I'm not in Lionel's "sweet spot" target audience in terms of age (early 40's), but I am of a similar state of mind as the discussion you witnessed.  In my case, it's a combination of the price increases with a few significant QC issues (now several years ago, but I have a vivid memory for such things) over the years.  I find the combination of having enough items combined with the higher prices for "luck of the draw" QC on a few items in the past makes me hesitate.  I am more willing to take a QC gamble on smaller orders for rolling stock and/or accessories.

On a bit of a side note, there is a very small subset of themes that if they were to ever offer what I would like I would jump at it, but for whatever reason Lionel is not going down that particular path.  My specific example is Lionel and Disney.  After all the changing in having or not having a license for the brand, there have been at least 2-3 "series" of new rolling stock offered in the last 10-15 years that have not had any motive power offered to pull them.  A nice larger diesel with sharp Disney graphics (characters/company logo, etc) would be a sure thing for me, but I guess it's too much work for them to design a paint scheme to put on pretty much any existing larger model they chose to offer such a thing.   The required investment would seem to be small since we are not talking anything prototypical here, and they could use existing tooling.

P.S.  Good luck on your Dunham adventure if you pursue it.  I know I will never be able to justify the cost of the show quality layouts they produce, but they are very nice.  The pricing on the small layouts shown if scaled up to the size I would consider a "dream layout" would easily cost more than a decent sports car, so I am out of my league there.  (I think the one you showed photos of was $5K, the Angela Trotta one to the right was somewhere between $9K and $10K.)  Glad to hear your health scare is mostly behind you at this point.

-Dave

I also looked MTH's and Lionel's booths and compared the SD60e's. Neither mfg.has gotten it right. 

Right now MTH's is more right but they have no plans on changing what is wrong, I.E. The fan behind the cab. 

Lionel did say it he were still tweaking the model so they may improve the model. We shall see.

Hello David,

I'm curious...................What did the Lionel SD60e's look like? Is the fuel tank prototypical in size? Are all the wheels flanged?

Regards,

Swafford

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

 

And the NS "Honoring First Responders" SD60E:

Both looked spectacular, and I can't wait to triple head these two locos along with a regular black NS SD60E diesel with a bunch of military supply rolling stock.  Should turn out to be a terrific military train.

 

Here is the engine that really interests me. Very nicely detailed and painted. Looks great. For the real thing. This is my 2nd favorite painted scheme NS has done outside of the first being the Virginian Heritage SD70ACe #1069 & 3rd being the Lackawanna #1074. But because I love the Honoring First Responders unit, I also have a NS 911 T-Shirt as well.

Swafford posted:

....   I'm curious...................What did the Lionel SD60e's look like? Is the fuel tank prototypical in size? Are all the wheels flanged?

... 

Swafford, 

Since I had already pre-ordered the MTH models, I didn't even look at any Lionel Legacy diesel models at York this trip.  Sounds like some folks did though, and have chimed in with some thoughts on Lionel's SD60E earlier in this thread.  Perhaps someone here on the forum can post a photo or two of the Lionel models.  Sorry I can't provide any additional perspectives to help compare them.    

David

david1 posted:

... Right now MTH's is more right but they have no plans on changing what is wrong, I.E. The fan behind the cab. 

...

The little display cards next to the products at York showed an ETA of May 2016 for MTH's SD60E's.  If they're accurate, that probably implies these engines are already "on the water" (or very close to it).  So I doubt we'll see any changes.

I'm very happy with what I saw at York, so I'm OK with whatever compromises MTH made with their SD60E model(s).

David

gmorlitz posted:

...

But if you're willing to take some advice, don't go north of Lake George in the winter. It can get really cold up there.

...

Gerry,

Then again... Old Man Winter dropped some snow up there just a couple of weeks ago... in April!!!  

David

David - All I can say is that if a Clarke Dunham layout was in my budget I'd do it in a heartbeat.   Go for it - you only live once!

-Greg 

The Lionel SD60e was a unpainted sample of the engine. It looked good but it was also incorrect with the fan behind the cab. 

According to some others there are some other mistakes that I did not notice. 

It will be up to the buyer if you can put up with close enough. 

wtjohn posted:

...  Did you, by chance, see the Lionel 2016 National Train Day prototype boxcar with 027 style passenger car graphics? It is quite quirky, quite unusual, a bit like a Saab, you either love or hate the design? I am asking since you seem to be a fan (previous posts) of dealer appreciation, national train day promotional boxcars.

...

I just saw some York pics that Trainworld posted on its Facebook page, and one of those is a close-up shot of the 2016 NLTD boxcar.  Count me solidly in the camp that HATES this 2016 design.  That's gotta be the worst design for a boxcar -- even worse than the design that Lionel chose as the winner for the "design your own boxcar" contest last year.    Just seems silly that they'd decorate a boxcar to look like a baby passenger car.  Sorry, I just don't "get it".

So no... I don't plan to purchase this car -- even if it's part of some collectable series that Lionel is attempting to produce.  I'm at the point where I much prefer purchasing items I like -- not just spending money willy-nilly with collection-fillers (unless I really like everything in the collection).  Because as we've seen time and time again, these collectables are "moment in time collectables" at best.  And most aren't even that.  Lionel hypes these NLTD cars as being available "only one day" through onsite LHS pre-orders.  But even that is hyperbole, since MANY shops ordered extras and are now trying to sell them (i.e., the 2015 NLTD boxcar) after the fact.  So there's no level of "exclusivity" to these cars whatsoever.  None... It's all hype.

Bottom line... best to purchase stuff because you like it,  and only because YOU like it -- not because Lionel is trying to convince you it's important to own "the entire series". That ship sailed a long time ago for me.

David

I spoke to Mike Reagan and looks like my new bridges are undergoing a slight tweak and will be released soon.  Mike is making sure personally that nothing gets released unless its done right! Thanks Mike.

By the way they are Die cast with the base, abutments and some of the details are plastic.

They looked very nice.

Those logging disconnect cars on Lionel's display layout looked nice.  They did have a slight hint of an artificial look to them, but otherwise very nice.  I may grab a few of them to go along with other logging cars I own... just for a little variety.

David

Did anyone notice if the new Lionel SD60Es have the kinematic style pilot or did it have the dreaded gap?

Biggs767 posted:

Did anyone notice if the new Lionel SD60Es have the kinematic style pilot or did it have the dreaded gap?

Gap. Looks like the TMCC era running gear with a new shell

Great summary on the York show guys. Rocky you must have been up late typing that great report. BTW thank you for the great deal on the track!

Boilermaker1 posted:

Biggs767 posted:

Did anyone notice if the new Lionel SD60Es have the kinematic style pilot or did it have the dreaded gap?

Gap. Looks like the TMCC era running gear with a new shell

Thank you!!

David,

It was real nice chatting with you after not running into you at shows in some years now. Do what I am doing and retire from work and work on living life. You can see from talking with me at York that I am so relaxed since retiring from Kraft/Nabisco. You would have plenty of time to work on the layout but the Clarke Dunham way could be your alternative.

Thank you for the excellent York review.