Effect of the third - the middle - rail on layout scenery and overall layout impression.

jonnyspeed posted:

Looking good Bob. You've just about convinced me to build up a Dead Rail (Battery powered wireless DCC/Sound) Diesel as a test bed. I have a Lionel S4 and GP30 that should work well for this purpose.

Jonathan, That's more or less what I did.

I took 1 steam engine to use as a testbed for the Deltang-based system, from there it took of to all 10 steamers.

Then BlueRail came out with their bluetooth board and, again, I used another engine (Weaver RS3) as a testbed.  Now I've added the Williams E7.

So now I'm back to 2 systems, Deltang-based and bluetooth-based, both battery operated.

Of the two, I'm leaning towards the BlueRail system more.  For one thing, it's a US (San Diego) company.  I ordered it Tuesday, got it yesterday, and had it installed in a couple of hours!!!  Any changes (firmware/software) are being made "online" when you turn on the App.

I look at the price of O-gauge transformers (upwards of $700-800 list for top of the line models) and another $200-300 for a command control system and wonder how a newbie can afford to jump in the pool.

Finally, look at all the issues/posts (many self-inflicted) with TMCC and DCS, the amount of paperwork that has to be perused, and all the comments that appear on this forum that need to be squirreled away for future reference.  I think the BlueRail Manual is 3-4 pages long and not really necessary to read, other than the wiring of the components.

About the only thing holding BPRC back is nobody (yet) is offering a RTR O-scale engine.  Bachmann (along with BlueRail) will surely be the first with their EZApp setup.

You can take a single engine (shelf-queens make good candidates), convert it, and run it on your present 2 or 3-rail layout, no need to take up the middle rail or add anything to the layout, you just need a device (Ipad), which a lot of people already have, a circuit board, on/off switch, charging jack, battery, charger, and some LEDs and wire.  OK, you do need to be able to solder and read instructions, but if I can do it anybody can.  The Ipad device and the charger are one time purchases for the most part.  I got my 1st NiMh battery pack and charger for under $40 from All-Battery, additional battery packs are $15 (their Ebay sales are even cheaper, usually with free shipping).

I would not use the word ridiculous. Compared to a well-done O-scale 2-rail layout our 3-rail track systems look odd. Once a person understands the nuances and challenges of actually implementing a solidly-performing model railroad we compromise and accept the 3 rail, as well as the higher and wider rail dimensions. Very few people have ever asked about the 3rd rail ~ and the questions have been from a technical perspective.

C W Burfle posted:

FYI; I think the man you mean is Teslaw not Tessler, not 100% sure.

It's Telsa.

 

Hmmm....  And here I thought it was Tesla....Nikola Tesla.

Silly me.

KD

C W Burfle posted:

Control systems have come and gone.
I think one was called Astrak.
And there was one that was made by GE (maybe it was Astrak).

 

Close. It's ASTRAC

---PCJ

This is 3 rail scale.

With the people who have tried battery power, how long does it run for before needing charging, and how long does it take to fully charge it? Batteries have come a long way, but they still have limitations on capacity. Plus if you took let's say a legacy engine and used the rails only for the command control of the various things on the engine while the power came from a battery on board, could the battery last any length of time running all that stuff, especially smoke units?

That also raises an interesting thing, and that is that this doesn't mean that people will switch to 2 rail scale and run a battery. Why? For the other attraction of 3 rail, that it is built to much more tolerance to tight curves, so if people switched to 2 rail from 3 because of the battery power, they likely would be running equipment with the same compromises as current 3 rail ie 2 rail 'semi scale', whatever that means. 

I suspect it is going to be still a while before battery power becomes mainstream in people's trains, it is going to take manufacturers offering the option and is going to take batteries with better capacity and quicker recharge times then today, but it likely will happen, with electric cars they are pushing the envelope with capacity and charging technology, likely will push down. 

Looks like I ruffled some feathers........good, got you thinking. Maybe I'll go over to the two rail forum and start a discussion on "Does the LACK of a 3rd rail bother anyone?"

The 3rd rail doesn't bother me in the least, and I really don't care what anyone else does. I understand the classic 3 rail train guys, but when someone is modeling everything perfectly except three rail track, I wonder why they just didn't go 2 rail? It's just as easy to model one as the other, and I suspect RC Battery Power will soon supplant a lot of what's out there as power.

You guys should re-read Bob Delbridge's post!

Simon Winter

FYI... for those interested, the Prewar AF "O" Gauge track with the 4th rail......     The rail was used to energize the whistle sounds in the tender, whenever the pickup shoe came into contact with the 4th rail.

Tesla was into trying to convince others of the possibility of transmitting electricity through the air... or "ether" as he called it.  Tesla actually demonstrated this in Colorado when he illuminated a couple miles of light bulbs without any connecting wires between them.  Look at pictures taken of him, and there are many, standing close to his Tesla Coils and being "lit up" or energized by the static, without any adverse effects.   Also, Westinghouse developed the AC system, and was in direct competition with Edison's DC system.  Both built generating stations in the New York City area and provided service.  Both also built generation stations along Niagara Falls at one time.  It was when Westinghouse was given the bid to electrify the World Exposition Fair that his method gained greater acceptance and won out over DC. 

Bob, you have gotten my curiosity started on the BPRC, again, as I have watched it and found it interesting.  It could be used in conjunction with my three rail Hi-Rail on some basis and make for some interesting operations.....IMHO.

Jesse   TCA 

Simon Winter posted:

Looks like I ruffled some feathers........good, got you thinking. Maybe I'll go over to the two rail forum and start a discussion on "Does the LACK of a 3rd rail bother anyone?"

The 3rd rail doesn't bother me in the least, and I really don't care what anyone else does. I understand the classic 3 rail train guys, but when someone is modeling everything perfectly except three rail track, I wonder why they just didn't go 2 rail? It's just as easy to model one as the other, and I suspect RC Battery Power will soon supplant a lot of what's out there as power.

You guys should re-read Bob Delbridge's post!

Simon Winter

They didn't go to two rail because 3 rail, because of its roots as 'toy trains', is designed to run on tighter curves. Those O72 only engines in three rail, for example, likely if built to 2 rail scale standards would take curves with what we call O96 and beyond. The engines MTH makes that work in 2 rail or three rail have the tradeoffs to allow going through tighter curves than they otherwise would, true 2 rail scale steam engines on the order of the legacy vision would likely take curves much larger than O72, and other engines built to scale would require larger curves. The scale couplers, body mounted couplers, tight drawbars, scale passenger cars with diaphragms, require much larger curves, pure and simple. 

On the other hand, if batter power worked out, the three rail people could remove the third rail with their 'toy' train equipment, remove the rollers, and have two rail that doesn't require a huge space (or be limited to a switching layout or the like in 2 rail scale), it would be 2 rail semi scale. 

Tesla invented the system that Westinghouse commercialized. Westinghouse was in severe financial straights (in large part because of the behind the scenes work of JP Morgan, who was allied with Edison, to keep him from getting financing), and he convinced Tesla to basically give away his inventions to him, for the good of humanity (Tesla may have been an erratic genius, but he was one of those people who seemed to feel he was there to benefit humanity, not necessarily his own pocket), and he did. 

Tesla actually built a transmission tower out on Long Island on the eastern end to try experiments with transmitting power, but I don't think he ever really got to try, I know the tower was wiped out in a storm (some are trying to get it made a national monument and rebuild the tower as part of it). 

In terms of power, with trains, A/C doesn't hold any kind of particular value (other than Lionel's hack of superimposing DC over AC to run the whistle) over DC. Modern engines in fact are running on DC that is put through a rectifier. Diode based rectifiers have been around a long time, the DC powerpacks (or anything that is plugged into AC and puts out DC) uses them, so Lionel could have switched to DC a long time ago. I believe that the open frame motors they used back in the post war era will run on DC (they are technically a so called universal motor), the only thing you would have to do is disable the whistle in the tender. 

DC is actually easier for speed control, it is a lot easier to speed control a dc motor than an ac one if I recall what my dad said (he was an EE), with a DC you just need a rheostat. The reason A/C was adopted was for long distance transmission, Edison's DC relied on localized power plants initially, with A/C it is a lot easier to step up/down, and losses over long distance are significantly less with AC, to transmit long distances with DC required bigger cables and also other gimmicks to make it practical. Edison finally threw in the towel with DC and his alliance with Morgan ended up forming GE , and they ended up building A/C plants, including at Niagra Falls. 

No, the number of rails do not detract from the scenery.  There are a lot scenery artists in both 2 rail and 3 rail.  They work in the medium they have available to them to create a miniature representation of a world they see in their imagination.  To me this whole argument would like a sculpture artist deriding a oil paint artist because his art lacks actual depth.

Lionel bought out American Flyer around the early 1970's(give or take a few years, not 100% sure of the year) and have been using the American Flyer name since then. It's sort of like what Lionel did with K-Line except for the lawsuit, A.F. was in financial trouble and Lionel or Fundimensions bought out A.F.

The Lionel Corp "purchased" American Flyer in the mid-1960's, when they went under. I am not 100% on the year either.  They didn't get the whole business lock, stock and barrel. Amato's Toy and Hobby got a bunch of stuff from the American Flyer factory. Mr. Amato posted the story on his website: Amato's

Not too long ago I read a piece on how Lionel actually acquired American Flyer. If I remember correctly, it said something about getting the company in exchange for services provided, as opposed to paying cash. I forget the source.  Maybe somebody else might know.

Apparently Lionel helped with the liquidation of finished goods. I have seen mimeographed sheets from Lionel that offered AF items at blowout prices.

There are at least 3 companies that make A.F. 2 rail track or were 3 companies. Gargraves,  and S-Helper make 2 rail A.F. track and switches. K-Line used to make 2 rail A.F. track; curves & straights, but no switches, at none that I know of.

I can only comment on Gilbert American Flyer "S" gauge two rail. It's the only product line with which I have experience. 

Hmmm....  And here I thought it was Tesla....Nikola Tesla.

LOL, well at least the link was good (I hope).

bigkid posted:

With the people who have tried battery power, how long does it run for before needing charging, and how long does it take to fully charge It?

 

I can normally run 2 to 2.5 hours on a charge and it generally takes that long to recharge as well.

I suppose I could change the charge rate from 1amp per hour to 2amps, but with 12 engines now sporting batteries I simply put another engine in service if I need to.

There's a few folks who are charging from the track, so that is a possibility.

You can get high capacity batteries, but they may not fit inside your loco.  I'm using 9.6v 2000Mah NiMh or 11.1v 2200Mah LiPo battery packs, the LiPo packs go in engines where the larger NiMh packs won't fit.

BlueRail's website has some customer showcase videos in a variety of scales showing what has been done.

There's 3-4 other systems that are available to so take a look at them all.

I could have just as easily left the middle rail in place (now I don't have a layout to run my remains 3-rail engines!), just decided that wasn't what I wanted any longer.

I don't use smoke so I can't tell you anything about it.

2 rail is nice and yes you can run it in a small space but... Bigger stuff you need a Barn to have a good size layout. Thus the allure of 3 rail = space. Otherwise folks here would be into HO or N or even G scale outside.

How many model in 2 rail O compared to 3 rail, or better put. How many out of all the scales model O 2 rail? 5%? 10%? Only S scale or TT has a smaller following.

Many I have over have no idea of 3 rail vs 2 rail, make that none unless they are a model train nut.

Regardless of what your track looks like, I hope you're having fun with your trains.

I prefer 3 rails.  Mainly because the pick-up rollers catch on the ties on 2 rail track.

Tom

I never thought it was an issue. Real railroads some times have an outer third rail to catch derailed cars, or to provide power. (Though outside third rail has mostly been changed, or become rather limited due to the risk of electrocution.)  If it works it works. the easy of set up for 3 rail is a definite plus, while the accuracy of two rail is just as good, depends on what you want from it.

There's a third rail?

There isn't a third rail?

I was too busy looking at trains to mind to it.

Adriatic posted:

There's a third rail?

There isn't a third rail?

I was too busy looking at trains to mind to it.

Are you counting rail cars jumping the tracks?

Bogie

To me those that complain/say something about it, are just looking for something to complain/say. A lot of your 2 rail look for things to complain about 3 rail. They still can not drop a load off from the engine unless there at certain spots.( from what I understand) I like how easy you can do a reverse loop with three rail instead of 2 rail. The 3rd rail doesn't bother me. When I ballast I put the rocks low towards the outside and high in the middle so it looks like the wheels have pushed them in and kinda hide the middle rail.

A fixed heavy metal turnout:

The real question is why do grown men argue and complain about the rails on a toy train layout?   Just have fun and enjoy what you like.   To each his own....

Yes indeed it's not what's best but best for you ! 

We don't care what mama don't allow, we're gonna play our guitar anyhow !   Over on G Scale Central, we have rule 8.  "Run what you like, how you like, where you like".   "Not that it matters..............but we don't even care.............whether or not.............we even care.............  ..    ...      ....     .....        ......

I much appreciate and Thank  all who replied in this conversation:

John C; Garrett76; Ingeniero No1; Marty Fitzhenry; Milwaukee Road Dave; bogdodgetrain; 645; brianel_K-lineguy; ScottR; zoradt; TrainingDave; bigkid; Putnam Division; El Classico; jay jay; OldBogie; texastrain; Dominic Mazoch; Jerrman; D500; Laidoffsick; handyandy; J Daddy; aussteve; mwb; RonH; Texas Pete; rtr12; Bob; AGHRMatt; Bobby D; Matt Makens; Pat Kn; George S; chessie1971; Stinky 1; Michael Hokkanen; leapinlarry; hah3; MrMuffin'sTrains; jonnyspeed; modeltrainman22; clem k; Roo; Gilly@NEW; flanger; dkdkrd; Oman; phillyreading; William 1; AMCDave; Engineer-Joe; Bobby Ogage; banjoflyer; Norn Charbonneau; sinclair; Scrapiron Scher; rex desilets; CW Burfle; bob2; AlanRail; Mark Boyce; New Haven Joe; scale rail; theteejmiester; nickaix; Hugh Laubis; Terry Danks; davia 1; Landsteiner; WindupGuy; Smoke Stack Lightnin; bigkid; 86TA355SR; Ace; Simon Winter; p51; Bob Delbridge; Rule292; Seacoast;Number90; Paul Kallus; RailRide; ssm; Allin; Tom Densel; Dan Padova; Panther97; Tom Tee; rtraincollector; Adriatic.

And I Thank  those who sent me"Likes" for this thread: Garrett76; Pat Kn; Putman Division; texastrain; BobbyD; George S; Fridge56Vet; suzukovich; hot; trainromgary.

The conversation was very interesting and provided some viewpoints I had not anticipated. All of it was edifying. And it was especially nice to see that some voices were able to get passionate without getting heated, IMO.

Thank you, all, for your input. That was fun.

FrankM., Moon Township, USA

Not too long ago I read a piece on how Lionel actually acquired American Flyer. If I remember correctly, it said something about getting the company in exchange for services provided, as opposed to paying cash. I forget the source.  Maybe somebody else might know.

Apparently Lionel helped with the liquidation of finished goods. I have seen mimeographed sheets from Lionel that offered AF items at blowout prices.

I found the reference. It's in Bob Osterhoff's book: Inside the Lionel Trains Fun Factory

If age has given me one thing of value it is the ability to discriminate between opinions that matter and those that don't.

Curt

I too have really enjoyed reading this thread.  The comment I wanted to add tonight involves  THE THIRD RAIL.  My line I model is "patterned" after the Great Northern in Montana around Glacier National Park; hence the name of the layout: THE GLACIER LINE.

The REAL line had three rails for a short time.  There was a narrow gauge line nicknamed: The Turkey Trail--a nod to the manner in which it was constructed--that crossed over and interchanged cars with the Great Northern near Shelby, Montana.  The GN purchased the NARROW gauge Turkey Trail.  For years, the third rail was there in that area to allow the passage of narrow gauge and standard gauge rail cars.

So THAT IS WHY I HAVE A THIRD RAIL!  :-)  

What effect does the lack of coal or oil fires in the fireboxes of actual boilers or diesel engines in the locomotives have on the overall effect of the layout?   What effect does not having real growing, in-scale trees and grass water by 1:48 scale rain and nurtured by a 1:48 scale sun have on the overall effect of the layout?  What effect does the fact that the cars and trucks on the layout don't have internal combustion engines in them to move with have on the layout?  What effect do the little plastic people as opposed  to living human beings have on the layout?

The effect, in every case, is that we are dealing with representations of reality in miniature, every aspect of which is a compromise to some degree or another. 

Each person decides which compromise to make with each aspect of the representation.  There is not--nor can there be--a truly accurate representation without compromises.  "Ridiculous" is in the eye of the beholder, not the representation.  Most folks who are in the hobby long enough undergo shifts in the extent of compromises they are willing to make:  number of rails, scale and gauge, diameter of curves, kind (or absence) of scenery, oval or point-to-point, many others.

Until you show me a perfectly Proto48 steamer with a coal or oil fire in the firebox, water in the boiler, air brakes, grease in the cellar boxes and waste in the journals, and valves to make it all work operated by a 1:48 scale human crew who do their own coupling and uncoupling (and eat their lunch at a fully functioning diner along the right of way which has every rail bolted together), I tell you that there is no truly accurate miniature replica whether you call yours a model or a toy. 

And no one has the right to look at another's choices and declare ex cathedra "That is ridiculous."

Palallin, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you ! A refreshing perspective, indeed.

frankm

I like the thought but......

They have the right, but it doesn't mean it's not mean to wright that right; right?

Finding the right line between toy and scale is  a rite  on left and right of all of our lines; no?

Adriatic posted:

I like the thought but......

They have the right, but it doesn't mean it's not mean to wright that right; right?

Finding the right line between toy and scale is  a rite  on left and right of all of our lines; no?

Huh?

What third rail?  I don't see a third rail.  Do you see a third rail?