Steamfan77 posted:Good luck to you Mark. Looking forward to your progress.
Andy
Thank you, Andy!
John,
Here are a couple quick thoughts while I am on break.
I am really hoping to run my H9 Consolidation which takes 042 curves. I realize expanding the curves to 042 stretches the canyon loops out into the middle of the room. However I got to thinking, I don't need to provide for continuous running on this layout. If I want to do that, I can just step through the door and run trains on the Ceiling Central RR. So, besides some sidings, buildings, and wye/turntable at each end, I don't need room for a turning loop.
Do you think this idea would work?
Marc Williams really wants to see that H9 I got from him on a trade run on this layout.
Right Marc? ;-)
Oops, gotta go for now!
Mark:
I'll see what happens with 42 as the minimum. Yes it will stretch it out a bit. I'm just trying to ensure that you have a three foot wide aisle way in order for you to have ease access and at least two people may run the trains and get by one another.
Having a turntable at the ends or a Wye will make it more interesting and cut down on a bigger "blob" return loop...I don't think there would be enough aisle way remaining with 42 blobs at both ends...
Dear Mark:
I changed the curves to a minimum of 42 diameter. Your baby will work! :-)
The passing siding curve is a 48 diameter. Since we increased to 42 as a minimum a reversing loop at each end became impractical because of everything needing to be with a 30 inch maximum reach and people space.
I discovered that my "Wye" suggestion also became impractical because of aisle way widths. The turnaround "solution" is a 24 inch turntable. Atlas does make one that size that is inexpensive. However, you will need to "weather" it well. I placed turntables at both "ends."
There are three lanes leading to the turntables on both ends. That means you could have another train or two (might be pressed for space) on any of the "free" spokes. Another advantage of this arrangement is that it will allow an engine to get on either end of a train so you may easily "classify" (arrange) your loads/empties in Davis or Hendricks. There are staging drawers at both towns. And you will need to switch the caboose from the front to the rear of the trains at both locations. Talk about realistic!
At Davis, 60 inches off the floor is high for a turntable in my opinion. Maybe not in yours. You may want to consider the height of this layout. I have the bottom at 41" and the top at 60." I wanted a dramatic difference to illustrate the steep grades and sharp curvature.
You may maintain that same grade by "adjusting" the entire profile. I mean make the top of the layout 55" up and the bottom 36" from floor. That 5 inches will make a world of difference in Davis as it will be easier to reach the rear track which is 28 inches back from the aisle way. At your height, you'd be okay at 60" but it may be a stretch. I'm 6'2" and I'm stretching at 60 inches high to reach. TEST YOUR REACH AT DIFFERENT HEIGHTS.
Whatever you decide, everything, that means EVERYTHING must be within 30 inches of reach, and less is better. As layout height increases your reach decreases. And factor in there are two lines of track in front of the rear track at Davis. You would have to reach over to fix a problem. You would need a step ladder/stool.
I have multiple step stools at my layout. As we clean track or install scenery we need to reach over trees and buildings at times. Those objects "reduce" (restrict) your reach. I have library rolling stools which are also a step. These are great because you can sit at Hendricks, stand at Davis and roll this library stool anywhere you need it to be including out of the way.
This track arrangement is fantastic for operation as trains pass each other going up and down the canyon. I can "picture" two Operators running the line. There would be four trains total. Two trains in Davis and Two in Hendricks. The first two would start, one each from opposite ends, and "meet" in the canyon. When they arrived at their respective towns for water and coal, the crew would switch to the other train, already standing by, and make their return trip to "home" and finish their "trick." If a third person was there, he or she, could "stage" additional trains or remove already used rolling stock to the staging drawers.
I suggested the "bare bones" of this theme and operational plan. You may have a better idea for a spur along the way or a different track arrangement at either town. The turntable at Hendricks is pretty much stuck where it is because you will want to maintain a 36 inch wide aisle way. It isn't worth one or two more spoke tracks to store an engine because your people space is at a premium! You and any one else viewing or operating the layout is far more important than one spoke track.
I think this is a great theme and good for the space. If you go with this, you will have to very carefully plan the bench-work. If you don't have it buy Linn Westcott's "How to Build Model Railroad Bench-Work." USE THE L-GIRDER method. This layout is ideal for that support system.
Also plan to include BACKDROPS. You will need them to make the BCL awesome. You will want to curve your backdrops around the corners of the room. It will make the layout look far, far better than square corners. Hardboard works very well.
I would also recommend you extend your backdrops all the wall to the ceiling. I would paint the ceiling a very light sky blue. Think about your lighting prior to constructing all of that bench-work which will swiftly become an obstacle.
I will attach the revised larger curvature diameter plan tonight; which includes suggestions for the "ends" of the line.
John,
Thank you for speedy work! I'm surprised you don't have something else to do!! lol
I agree with all your suggestions, I think. I built layouts using Westcott's book. I still have the book, but think I have it pretty well down pat. Yes 60" is a bit high for reach especially. The highest I built was about 50 to 52" if I recall correctly. I already use a two-foot step ladder for accessing the Ceiling Central, and have a cheap rolling low seat for working down low. No more crawling on my hands and knees. Mine took a pounding working as a technician for over 30 years before moving to engineering almost a decade ago. ;-)
Ill say more later. Back to the old grind! lol
Mark:
I adjusted the height based on your response. The highest point is 50 inches up and the lowest is 31 inches. I dropped all 10 inches lower.
Ultimately, you can determine where you want it to be. There are two places where the tracks cross over one another. At those points the closest one is 7 inches up which is extra room and you aren't going to run tall equipment. 6 would be fine for 99% of O scale stuff anyway. Think about it...
01-13-2017
Mark:
Here is the amended version with minimum 42's.
I'm disappointed with my printer scanner. I don't know why the scanner is NOT picking up dotted lines. It is showing them as solid. I use the dotted to indicate a line is "hidden" from view. A lot of the passing siding is under Davis. There is sufficient space to access everything through the access hole. I don't know if you can kind of envision this set up because the main is constantly on a steep grade less the turnouts on the grade that are flat/level and the tracks connected to the turnouts are flat/level for at least one foot in all directions.
I also used dotted lines to show the aisle ways...it appears as solid on the scan.
Well here it is. Point to Point. About 50 to 55 feet of run--very good for a room this size. Three yard tracks and one turntable each town. Maximum four trains. 1 lane in each town should always be available. You need it to put the caboose on the correct end of the train for the return trip. Every time a train makes the journey, regardless of direction, the caboose will need to be put on the "new" end of the train--very prototypical.
Constructing this will require precise bench-work because there's just enough room to maintain a 36 inch aisle way in the area making it relatively easy for two people to pass by one another.
I really like this arrangement and theme. I've been checking out photos today. There is a hiking trail there now. You have great information to know how to make the scenery similar.
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Mark
Try a higher resolution on you scanner.
C
Mark Boyce posted:John,
Here are a couple quick thoughts while I am on break.
I am really hoping to run my H9 Consolidation which takes 042 curves. I realize expanding the curves to 042 stretches the canyon loops out into the middle of the room. However I got to thinking, I don't need to provide for continuous running on this layout. If I want to do that, I can just step through the door and run trains on the Ceiling Central RR. So, besides some sidings, buildings, and wye/turntable at each end, I don't need room for a turning loop.
Do you think this idea would work?
Marc Williams really wants to see that H9 I got from him on a trade run on this layout.
Right Marc? ;-)
Oops, gotta go for now!
You bet! I must say that it will look great on the new layout! If I can, I'd be happy to help out with the build and I'd definitely love to see it once it is completed. This Blackwater Canyon line looks incredible! Certainly it is designed for your smaller locomotives, but I think the H-9 will function well. Just be sure that the grade at the bottom of the hill is small. I have had some problems with my 734 touching the center rail at the bottom of my grade and shorting out the layout. Be very careful with this! I run a 4% grade. I think the outdoor carpet worsens the problem.
-Marc
I want to see it when it's done too! But to do that layout justice, it's going to take a very long while. Unless of course Mark is independently wealthy and has been holding out on us! I wish that I was close to help build. This is going to take some careful planning and loads of plaster cloth and some scratch built stone arches??? This layout has masterpiece written all over it.
People forever get hung up on the size thing. Some of the best most realistic layouts I ever saw were on a shelf. The detail was out of this world. It's not the size. It's the quality, coupled with a Design theme.
Model Railroading is so much more than just arranging track pieces to fit a space. You need a theme. You need a place. You need a purpose. You need something for the Operators to do.
Plausibility
Purpose
Participation
You'll need some custom logo for the BCL Mark! :-)
Mark...I am very happy for you!! Glad you have a place to build your new layout!!
Alan
John,
Yes it does look like everything will fit nicely. You did a great job! Don't worry about the lack of dotted likes for now it is just fine. You are right, I am working on visualizing how the scenery will work out on the curves. You are right, I can picture some scenes from memory and a few photos I found on the Internet. I think I will have time to dig the books and photos out of the closet tomorrow. Also, we will have to take a trip down there come better weather.
Yes Rome was not built in a day. Cecil B DeMille's 1934 Cleopatra is on right now; probably why I thought of the old saying. It will take quite a while to build as I am not independently wealthy, and still have to work for a few more years. LOL
I'm thinking about the towns too, as to what will go in them. I have seen various arrangements for car staging drawers or shelves. That will work!
The scenery will be challenging but fun. I will like doing the stone work.
Marc,
I understand what you mean about hitting at the bottom of the grade. You have to have a section that gradually changes from level to the full grade percentage. I would be glad to have help. However I can envision this year spent planning and finishing the room. I need more lights, and do some painting. I might need to add a separate power circuit for the room. Thank you!!
OGR Ad Man posted:Mark...I am very happy for you!! Glad you have a place to build your new layout!!
Alan
Alan,
Thank you very much!!!
Mark, I don't if this will help, but while watching TV this evening I threw this together using GarGraves O42 curves and Ross O42 switches. I deviated from the O48 curve and used O54 because neither GG nor Ross many O48 curves. My goal was just to show how John's design appears to work using GG/Ross track. I guesstimated the measurements for the bench work and the whole layout obviously needs to be refined using/cutting GG flexible track if you go with this design or something close to it.
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Dave,
That is really cool you did that, and it really looks good! I will certainly look it over along with John's. Thank you very much!
Just thought I'd save you some work since you still have a day job and I don't. 
Ha, Ha! Much appreciated!!
Actually, I have a pretty decent gig right now. I get two small pension checks each month, and work as a contractor/consultant at my old company. Best thing is, I don't have the pressures I had as a regular employee! If it holds out until I can collect Social Security, I'll be in good shape! If not, I'll ask one of my sons-in-law for a job! 
Well, after that one warm day we had, the snow is gone. Since it is in the low 30s, I decided to do a few odd jobs outside I normally do in November, and take down Christmas wreaths and lights. As I was on the patio, I decided it would be a good idea to take a photo of the doors outside so you can better visualize what I am talking about. First is where you can see the addition in white vinyl siding with the infamous glass sliding door. The door on the tan brick and aluminum siding part is where the sliding glass door originally started and continued into where the addition went.
I am now inside sitting at the desk right beside the newer 36-inch door. Here you can see where the sliding glass door was taking the space of the 36-inch door, a pillar, and the 20-inch wide entrance to the train room. Part of the Ceiling Central RR is above. Also, you can see on the left where the laundry is and the window through the brick wall. Beyond the washer and dryer is the firewall separating the living space from the garage, so there is nowhere else to move the laundry. As you can see in the train room with the single three-bulb fixture, my outside work is not complete as I have power cords and part of the Nativity I need to box up and put in the attic.
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I'd be happy if someone proved me wrong, but I believe Atlas doesn't make that turntable anymore. I can't find one anywhere except the occasional used one on eBay.
Well Keith, you have a good point. I have not seen them myself new for sale for a long time, but I haven't been looking for one before either. Thank you for the tip that they may be out of production! That is a key element to make sure I have access to before finalizing plans.
DoubleDAZ posted:
LOL, Dave! Leave it to you to be submitting the source just as I was typing my response!! Thank you!! 
I have following this thread but keeping my mouth shut because I am marveling at people who have the ability to see a space with obstacles and come up with an actual plan. You guys are amazing......I am learning a lot about conceptual planning. My biggest weakness in seeing things in 3 dimensions....I think in only 2. I am learning loads......a big thank you to all!
Peter
Actually, Mark, I just searched for Atlas turntable and that link popped up. Of course, that doesn't mean they're in stock. 
I had missed that John mentioned Atlas, so my SCARM file has a Ross TT. Then when Keith mentioned the potential supply problem, I noticed the price for a Ross TT and said "Wow!"
Mark Boyce posted:DoubleDAZ posted:LOL, Dave! Leave it to you to be submitting the source just as I was typing my response!! Thank you!!
I see that page was from 2002 at MSRP $149. When I search O 3-rail accessories, I see it listed MSRP $255, which seems that would be a newer page. I'll have to do some investigating to be sure.
DoubleDAZ posted:Actually, Mark, I just searched for Atlas turntable and that link popped up. Of course, that doesn't mean they're in stock.
WOW is right!! Maybe I will have to rely on the 0-5-0 switcher to turn my locomotives! Just one of many problems to come! There will be an answer to all of them. I may not like some of the answers, but there will always be an answer!!
Putnam Division posted:I have following this thread but keeping my mouth shut because I am marveling at people who have the ability to see a space with obstacles and come up with an actual plan. You guys are amazing......I am learning a lot about conceptual planning. My biggest weakness in seeing things in 3 dimensions....I think in only 2. I am learning loads......a big thank you to all!
Peter
Peter,
I am with you, I have trouble visualizing in 3 dimensions myself. That is a big reason why I decided to ask for input on this layout. I know it is possible to fit an exciting layout into a space this size, but I have trouble visualizing it. I wouldn't have any trouble if I was stretching it out over a whole basement. But then, I would never have time to build it. John has certainly come up with a plan that does it. I am sitting here at that desk typing and then looking over through the door at that pink wall, and I am starting to see the Blackwater Canyon folded over itself for lack of a better term. Without John's ideas, the only way I could have done it was to keep circling the room, then what would I do at the doors. And how do I eliminate those turnback blobs that eat space? I am learning a lot from each entry.
I am so glad you joined into the conversation!
Sorry, Mark, I totally missed that 2002 date. I couldn't find 1 in stock either though I did find a site saying Pre-Order and another saying to call for availability. This is one of those instances where if they are releasing it again, you'll need to buy 2 as soon as they get released or buy from eBay if you want to pursue this design. Now you can appreciate my decision to forego ScaleTrax in favor of GarGraves because of availability concerns. It really sticks that the hobby is not popular enough to have items in stock all the time.
The Atlas turntable is listed in their 2016 catalog, page 126, but I don't see any prices and I don't have the price sheets for the catalog, if there were any.
Mark:
As far as the turntables go, just keep an eye out. The Atlas ones surface from time to time and will continue too. I'm betting that if you posted WANTED on here someone would have 1 or two. BEFORE you do, and again you've got time, you might keep an eye out for someone selling an old used Bowser or another higher quality turntable. Here's more great news for you, you don't need a motor, indexing etc. as both turntables are easily accessible. Yes if they had motors that would be fine, but you won't need motors. Manual is fine. You will find a good deal if you are patient.
Also, you could go crazy like I did and build one. I built a small one that catches everyone's attention. They ask me who made it. I'm kind of embarrassed to admit it's a cake pan with an upside down HO scale girder bridge. I use it for turning the old rotary snow plow. It's functional and looks realistic. No it's not in a league with Ross or MillRiver Studios, but it cost me $17 to make and not $1200 or more.
NEXT: INTERESTING FACT! Davis is the highest town at 3100 feet in all of West Virginia! Second, under Cheat Mountain there's a tunnel leading out to a connection with the C & O and B & O. It would be cool to put a turnout o the line with a track leading to a backdrop portal (painted or 3D) that gives the appearance the train is entering a tunnel...that would be your interchange/connection to the world. If somehow you can position a small mirror inside a tunnel portal facing out it provides a great illusion like track is traveling through tunnel. I've never tried it but I've seen photos.
There's an Atlas O on ebay with 22 hours left. Bid is at $105.00 with multiple bidders.
Atlas 2 or 3 Rail O Scale Turntable #6910 - Manual or Electric Operation
- $105.00
- 33 bids
- Take your time Mark...the right ones will come along and you may do better than the Atlas. I have one that Connie weathered. It is in a hidden part of the layout. We weathered it for us. It's okay, but you may find some highly detailed really great looking table for not too much. People will see both of your tables. Atlas isn't bad weathered but the others are better done which is what they cost much, much, much more! That is my table. We made it dirty.
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Thank you Dave, RTR12, and John on the turntable advice. Yes, I have seen many folks remark about Atlas O and MTH Scaletrax being hard to get at times. That is why I have tried every kind of track out there except for those two. Now as far as the atlas turntable goes, I can either mate up GarGraves to it or put GarGraves on it, so there is no concern.
No, I don't need one immediately, but it is something I need to get a handle on and be watching for. This sounds like a scenario I have heard before as to things folks find at York. They find something they never found anywhere else, even online. Yes, I only live 240 miles from York, but I have never been there.
John, I am familiar with Davis as I worked about 15 miles from there at the power station 20 to 25 years ago. It is on a plateau area that is rather stark for West Virginia because of the elevation. Quite a difference in appearance from Hendricks down in the valley. Those are differences to capitalize on. I do not know whether I was aware of the tunnel or not. If I was, I forgot. I agree, that would be something cool to do too. I have always wanted to try a mirror, but never have.
I saw your homemade turntable on the latest videos you posted last weekend! Pretty neat! That rotary snow plow looked pretty neat as well. I have an MTH plow that can be pushed by an engine. I ran it this Christmas some. I see what you mean about weathering the Atlas turntable. I also like manual. Even though my career has been in electronics, I like to keep things as simple as possible at home. One less motor to maintain and a few less wires to tag and document works for me!!
No I need to get back to digging out that closet to find my Western Maryland information.
DoubleDAZ posted:
Dave
I have seen this kind of thing before. You do a google search and you think you found what you want. But, in reality, it is just an orphan web page that was left behind. I really believe that Atlas is not producing this turntable anymore.
Looks like Atlas is still taking orders online for them Atlas O Turntable and this time I found a price (just a tad higher ), I didn't try to order one. Probably calling Atlas is the best way to know for sure.
Woops, I got brave and clicked on the order button, nothing happened...still a mystery? Maybe they were cancelled?
I've seen that too Keith, but I simply missed the date. When I looked for it, I didn't look down there.
Thank you everyone! Yes I think it is worth a call to see if they still stock it and if so what the manufacturer price is.
Dear Mark:
I woke up this morning (Sunday the 15th) thinking about the track plan. I'm concerned that the lengths of the lanes in Davis are too short. I'm envisioning short consists meaning a maximum of four 10-inch cars and one eight inch caboose maximum, about 50 total inches. I want to leave room for at least one engine, and a few cars, to be parked on a turntable spoke/spur ready to go when another arrives. I increased the length of the lanes.*READ In the drawing...below
And, I reduced the grade (It is still steep--intentionally--) from Davis to the first turnout in the canyon. I moved the other main line turnout back toward the tunnel to reduce the grade in the lower portion of the grade. I also increased the Height from the floor of Hendricks by 2 inches--better for your back.
I like the longer lanes and slightly reduced grades better.
In the drawing, I didn't put tracks directly over/under one another for CLARITY of the drawing. At my computer, I can turn on/off the various lines by color. Showing a photo, I can't do that. When you construct this arrangement this you will discover you have a little more room to work with than what is shown in this drawing, because I on purpose left more space between upper/lower tracks than necessary to give you a less cluttered and more easy to understand view.
It is great that there is a trail on the old roadbed your are modeling! You can see firsthand what the scenery looks like. I realize it's expensive, but I think you should consider photo-realistic images for your backdrop. Your entire backdrop, with curved corners, will be about 25 to 30 feet in total length. It would appear as a mural of shorts from the edge of the wall as you walk in the room from the house (NOT the small section between the opening and sliding glass door) and go 3/4 of the way around the room ending at the sliding glass doors (nearer to rear wall side).
Lastly, I went to the website of the Western Maryland Historical Society yesterday. Good stuff.
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PS: I used my highest resolution on my scanner, 1200 DPI and the dotted lines showing hidden tracks in tunnels will appear as solid lines.
John,
You are really hooked on this if you woke up thinking about it! I do like the longer lead into Davis, that does give more flexibility. At Hendricks it is hard for me to tell how long it is compared to Davis, but I would think I don't want it any longer because I do not want a turnout/switch inside the tunnel where I would have to go into the access hole to get to it. Once built, I want to go in the access holes as little as possible. Also, I would have to put some kind of detection system it to be sure which way the switch is thrown and if there is something in the way of a moving train. I want to keep maintenance to a minimum. I like the idea of raising Hendricks a bit and lessening the grade a bit. I think 40" is ideal for the lower town.
I was already thinking about the backdrop, and agree I want to spend the money to get something printed. I do not have the talent Connie has as she demonstrated on your layout, and my artist daughter doesn't have the time to do something for me. Besides, my mountains would end up pink and not green.
Yes, I want to get on the trail sometime. I hate to leave my wife behind, as she has had one knee replaced and needs the other done. If we can go this year, I'll just look for the easy access points - the two ends. I doubt there is access anywhere in the middle.
I agree the WMHS has a lot of great information. I dug out some of what I have last night. There are a couple other boxes that I need to look at because there are some books I did not find when I was looking last evening. I piled up a bunch of locomotive and rolling stock boxes in the train room so I could get to the boxes that have the books. Some of those books I haven't seen in 6 years since we bought this house from my mother-in-law. It's like meeting up with old friends!
One last thing, about the hidden track on the drawing. If you put lines across the track to show tunnel portals, then I can see where you are thinking the track will be hidden, and I can see if I agree. Thank you again so much!!!
John,
You are really hooked on this if you woke up thinking about it! I do like the longer lead into Davis, that does give more flexibility. At Hendricks it is hard for me to tell how long it is compared to Davis, but I would think I don't want it any longer because I do not want a turnout/switch inside the tunnel where I would have to go into the access hole to get to it. Once built, I want to go in the access holes as little as possible. Also, I would have to put some kind of detection system it to be sure which way the switch is thrown and if there is something in the way of a moving train. I want to keep maintenance to a minimum. I like the idea of raising Hendricks a bit and lessening the grade a bit. I think raising the lower town to 33" is good.
I was already thinking about the backdrop, and agree I want to spend the money to get something printed. I do not have the talent Connie has as she demonstrated on your layout, and my artist daughter doesn't have the time to do something for me. Besides, my mountains would end up pink and not green.
Yes, I want to get on the trail sometime. I hate to leave my wife behind, as she has had one knee replaced and needs the other done. If we can go this year, I'll just look for the easy access points - the two ends. I doubt there is access anywhere in the middle.
I agree the WMHS has a lot of great information. I dug out some of what I have last night. There are a couple other boxes that I need to look at because there are some books I did not find when I was looking last evening. I piled up a bunch of locomotive and rolling stock boxes in the train room so I could get to the boxes that have the books. Some of those books I haven't seen in 6 years since we bought this house from my mother-in-law. It's like meeting up with old friends!
One last thing, about the hidden track on the drawing. If you put lines across the track to show tunnel portals, then I can see where you are thinking the track will be hidden, and I can see if I agree. Thank you again so much!!!
