(07/12/21) SOLD OUT! Santa Fe F3 Diesel Locomotive from Menards!

I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I do think that having another manufacturer on the entry level can’t hurt.  Competition drives one of two things, differentiation, a unique offering.  Or innovation, ways to make things at a lower cost to increase margin.  

Asking a sub-200 dollar locomotive to support one of the more sophisticated control systems is probably unrealistic at this point.  Maybe once Menards gets some wind in their sails we may see something like that.  If I were them, I would team up with BlueRail or one of the DCC decoder folks and just make a simple plug and play connection for one of those control systems.  Athearn did this in their early DCC-ready Genesis series locomotives.  

It could still support the included remote in the absence of a decoder.  This way they can keep the unit cost low for entry level folks, and offer an “upgrade” path for people that get more into it.  

On the topic of what “makes Lionel money” (or MTH for that matter) I suspect that the margins are simply thinner on some items and padded a bit on others.  I highly doubt they are selling Legacy and Vision Line locomotives at a loss.  Economies of scale probably allow a bit more profit to be made compared to just selling high-end items or just selling entry level sets.  In fact it’s this product line diversity that often leads to a healthier company.

But let’s not forget, Scott Mann is making only high-end stuff, and while I don’t imagine he’s got a house like Bill Gates, I also doubt he’s not taking a salary of some sort.  So there is at least some money to be made.

But congrats to Menards on a new product that some said would never get made!

@coach joe posted:

So Cabinet Bob has given us some operating info, pulled 5 cars for an extended period, he maxed out at 18 cars.  A little more info would be appreciated, flat track or grades, what type, age, weight, size of cars.

BNSF Matt had a battery compartment issue that he rectified, now can we get some operating info?

Dewman51 is very happy with his maybe he can give us some more details on how it's running?

Tonight  I pulled 23 menards boxcars and flatcars with no problem. My layout is all flat.

@RadioRon posted:

Am I seeing correctly that the number boards are lit by red LEDs?

Yes, but they are very dim

@Madockawando posted:

How a locomotive operates is very much a part of any evaluation of a company’s product. Menards asked for a full wholistic evaluation. This is very relevant.

Correction.  They asked for in depth reviews from those who actually bought one.   They released only 200 at a Beta-Tester Price.    All this speculating and posturing is NOT what Mark asked for.

FWIW you can buy a Lionchief Plus board for 55 bucks plus you will need an encoder for the motor at 32 bucks. Half price in September with the LCCA sale. Compare to Lionel’s Lionchief F3. I think you could build three of these vs one Lionchief.

Pete

@laming posted:

I haven't checked this thread in a while, so this question may already been asked/answered.

I'm curious: How does the new Menards F unit compare in SIZE to the Lionel PW F3?

Andre

Pictures and info is in the thread. Not hard to find.

@EscapeRocks posted:

Correction.  They asked for in depth reviews from those who actually bought one.   They released only 200 at a Beta-Tester Price.    All this speculating and posturing is NOT what Mark asked for.

So Mark said he wanted no feedback on the remote control? I must missed that , can you share where you got that from?

I will be checking with the 2 members of our club who purchased one, and get first hand info as they run it, our layout has flat loops as well as decent grades to find out what the locomotive is capable of. FWIW, everything I am hearing and watching in the videos put out, this is a GREAT engine for the price.

The ones who want more can pony up the money and upgrade to their hearts delight, and still be money ahead.

Menards can do very well with these, and it shows that someone in the development was a train enthusiast, and all the better for us in the hobby.

It would be nice to see a video of this loco (to the best of its electronic ability) slowly starting,  running, and then slowing to a stop with a reasonable train. Maybe 8-10 cars?

Additionally, who's gonna try and get at the gearbox internals to see what the worm and axle gears are made of?

Plastic gears would certainly put an operational limit on these. I believe some of the early Lionchief stuff may have showed up with plastic gears.

With all due respect. We have pictures of it in the box. Video of it sitting still or clipping along, but nothing in between.

I dare say most will run the engine a lot before tear into it. There are going to be 200 out there, hopefully a large percentage are run hard and put through their paces. MTBF is always good to know.

Thanks Bob.  That's quite a train.  All modern needle point axles and plastic trucks.

@Madockawando posted:

So Mark said he wanted no feedback on the remote control? I must missed that , can you share where you got that from?

It's okay to stop moving the goal posts in your arguments.

Mark clearly asked the question based on people having one to run thru it's paces.  He also asked that said reviews/concern/what-have-you be emailed to them

From Mark's original post (highlights mine):

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Feedback Wanted

These engines have been in development for several years and delayed further by COVID-19.

This limited edition is our first locomotive, and we want to know your opinion of the model's appearance, functionality, reliability, performance, value, and most of all, did you have fun running it? This will help guide us in the future.

Please email your thoughts and feedback to Ray at Guest@menard-inc.com

Remember, the purpose of this test run is to gather feedback. The more people who get one, the better. With this in mind, and because the supply is so limited, we ask that you limit your purchase to one engine per customer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As fa as cost of adding these thing you want with the remote, they really do add cost.  Lionel is not just going to give it away.  No they did not give away TMCC, as has been mentioned previously.  They released the very limited serial code that talks to their Command bases.   So yeah, MTH can have DCS talk simply to a TMCC loco, but the end user still has to spend $$$ for the equipment the DCS system talks to

Related to my music world:  Shure is one of the leaders in wireless technology for monitors, mics, etc..   Aviom is another company that makes great in -ear monitoring mixer to be accessed at their station.   Aviom asked was granted the ability to buy a license to use so that The Aviom can talk to the Shure system you might have in your stage rack.  The Aviom without Shure compatibility was running about $799.    With Shure compatibilty it was running around $1199.  

My suggestion is for everyone to relax a bit on all these features one may want until the people who actually bought these to review start coming back with thorough reviews that can be collated

@Ron_S posted:

I dare say most will run the engine a lot before tear into it.

Understood.

However, I'd be looking at how to check for/add grease into those gearboxes just like I do with the higher priced stuff. At the same time see what the gear composition is.

Even if they have metal gears , they'll wear out eventually with no lube.

"Compare to Lionel’s Lionchief F3. I think you could build three of these vs one Lionchief."

I bought one of the first separate sale LionChief locos a year or two ago from Charlie Ro, an RS3 BN for about $200.  Hard to believe an F3 would be much more. Remember that Lionel has to build in a profit for distributors as well retailers into their MSRP, unlike Menard's, so the pricing structure is going to be different.  Charlie Ro probably buys at the same price as a big distributor I'd guess, unlike a small retail shop, so they may be more like Menard's.

If the final sale price of these Menard's  locos when they are made in volume is around $150, there will be a price difference, but more like 33% more, not 200% more . And as mentioned the current price may be a loss leader to get folks to try them out. No one is going to be surprised if the final price is a bit more than $150.  I know I will be pleased for $150 but I wouldn't quibble at $200 either,  for a command operated loco with remote and sound.  But  if they can sell them at $150 and make a profit, that's great.

At three times the price (i.e,. $450 street price), we're talking LC +2.0 locos with scale details, electrocouplers, RailSounds, TMCC, not LionChief.

@RickO

It looks like locktite on the allen head scews and attach points for the truck in Bob's pic. I would be very careful dismantling these, but lube is always critical.

I am wondering if a manual came with the Loco?

@cabinet Bob, great photos and video! Thanks so much for the wonderful review and your thoughts on this new engine.

@Landsteiner posted:

"Compare to Lionel’s Lionchief F3. I think you could build three of these vs one Lionchief."

I bought one of the first separate sale LionChief locos a year or two ago from Charlie Ro, an RS3 BN for about $200.  Hard to believe an F3 would be much more. Remember that Lionel has to build in a profit for distributors as well retailers into their MSRP, unlike Menard's, so the pricing structure is going to be different.  Charlie Ro probably buys at the same price as a big distributor I'd guess, unlike a small retail shop, so they may be more like Menard's.

If the final sale price of these Menard's  locos when they are made in volume is around $150, there will be a price difference, but more like 33% more, not 200% more . And as mentioned the current price may be a loss leader to get folks to try them out. No one is going to be surprised if the final price is a bit more than $150.  I know I will be pleased for $150 but I wouldn't quibble at $200 either,  for a command operated loco with remote and sound.  But  if they can sell them at $150 and make a profit, that's great.

At three times the price (i.e,. $450 street price), we're talking LC +2.0 locos with scale details, electrocouplers, RailSounds, TMCC, not LionChief.

700 bucks gets you a dummy too.

http://www.lionel.com/products...0-1620-1621-2034100/

Pete

@Csxcellent posted:

While I’m not happy with it being too big for scale, .....

Why are you suggesting that it's too big for scale?

It looks like scale size, but for a loco that is four feet longer than an F3. It looks like an FP7 and it looks correctly sized for a representation of that model locomotive.

@D500 posted:

It appears that the tooling is actually new, as it has a couple of obvious (at least to me) flaws, bases on the video. There may be others.

- the contour of the nose is incorrect, obvious from the top; there is a "sharpness" to it.

- the loco is too long for an F3, and/or the trucks are mounted too far toward the ends of the frame, an issue that afflicts the Williams Alco PA. Related: note the extra length of the fuel tank.

(Others may have seen this, but I did not read all the thread reply pages.)

If it’s reliable then all these little criticisms won’t matter. It’s a boost in the arm for the hobby if we can have a reliable engine at that price point.
Alan

wish i got one, This engine is a great start for Menrards with engines.

@RoyBoy posted:

Why are you suggesting that it's too big for scale?

It looks like scale size, but for a loco that is four feet longer than an F3. It looks like an FP7 and it looks correctly sized for a representation of that model locomotive.

Glad to see someone else recognizes that it's a representation of an FP7.  But as long as Menards calls it an F3, that's what a lot of people will think.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

Glad to see someone else recognizes that it's a representation of an FP7.  But as long as Menards calls it an F3, that's what a lot of people will think.

Rusty

That’s my point. From my (very limited) research, it doesn’t even look like atsf or a bunch of major railroads had fp7s. Thus, I wonder why they went with that model rather than the ft or f3.

@Norton posted:

700 bucks gets you a dummy too.

http://www.lionel.com/products...0-1620-1621-2034100/

Pete

Geez, I totally forgot those are going for that much! And a big price jump compared to the other LionChief diesels too.

@Csxcellent posted:

That’s my point. From my (very limited) research, it doesn’t even look like atsf or a bunch of major railroads had fp7s. Thus, I wonder why they went with that model rather than the ft or f3.

Maybe someone had already made that FP7 mold, or maybe it's an old/existing mold from another defunct manufacturer. I checked my old two rail Atlas/Pola F7 from the 70's, but the Menards loco mold  is not from that family/lineage.

Some of the German companies made O gauge American covered wagon locos. Maybe the mold came from one of them.

@cabinet Bob posted:

About 1 inch longer

Thanks Bob.

Interesting. I think I recall the Lionel PW F3 was scale length, but short in height? IF that's so, then at 1 inch longer, that's 4 scale feet. In other words, the Menard's F is the correct (scale) length for an FP7.

Andre

@Csxcellent posted:

That’s my point. From my (very limited) research, it doesn’t even look like atsf or a bunch of major railroads had fp7s. Thus, I wonder why they went with that model rather than the ft or f3.

While the Santa Fe didn't have FP7's.  SP, UP, WP, PRR, Reading, Milwaukee, C&O, Alaska, MKT, CGW, Soo, CP, CN, Ontario Northland come to mind.

The weird thing is, the Menards model has a little detail called a drip strip above the nose door.  That's something that was on the Ontario Northland FP7's.  It's not something I've seen on other F-units.  Go figure...

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

While the Santa Fe didn't have FP7's.  SP, UP, WP, PRR, Reading, Milwaukee, C&O, Alaska, MKT, CGW, Soo, CP, CN, Ontario Northland come to mind.

The weird thing is, the Menards model has a little detail called a drip strip above the nose door.  That's something that was on the Ontario Northland FP7's.  It's not something I've seen on other F-units.  Go figure...

Rusty

The Santa Fe Warbonnet is one of the big three of Lionel lore.  It along with the Hudson and GG1 have been the most popular models for decades.   It makes sense to use a recognizable locomotive for a first effort even if it’s not prototypical.  If they want to move locomotives and sets, Menards must fill in the gaps in the industry leaders assortments and simply offer copies at a lower price.  They have built a brand which is the hard part.  Now, attention must be paid so that the brand’s reputation is not tarnished with shoddy quality.

Second hand:  Amtrak, VIA Rail, Texas State Railroad.  For FP's

@RixTrack posted:

The Santa Fe Warbonnet is one of the big three of Lionel lore.  It along with the Hudson and GG1 have been the most popular models for decades.   It makes sense to use a recognizable locomotive for a first effort even if it’s not prototypical.  If they want to move locomotives and sets, Menards must fill in the gaps in the industry leaders assortments and simply offer copies at a lower price.  They have built a brand which is the hard part.  Now, attention must be paid so that the brand’s reputation is not tarnished with shoddy quality.

I'm not concerned about a fantasy Warbonnet paint job on a 150 buck entry level locomotive.

The only thing I'm sticking to is the model is representative of an FP7 and not an F3.  I doubt Menards will change the copy, though.

Rusty

Add Southern, Atlantic Coast Line, Seaboard Coast Line, RJ Corman, New Georgia, Stone Mountain to the list of FP7s.  Not an inconsequential amount of owners (new or used)

"And a big price jump compared to the other LionChief diesels too."

Those diesels Norton is linking to aren't LionChief, they are LionChief + 2.0.  Unlike simple LionChief (and the Menard's loco), they operate in conventional, Bluetooth, LionChief and TMCC modes.  They have more scale details, electrocouplers, full Railsounds, etc.  They are more like a TMCC loco from some years ago, or even Legacy than resembling a LionChief loco.  Apples and oranges .  $200 street price (single loco) vs. $600 (and that's for an A-A or A-B pair). I know people get a lot of pleasure at pointing out Lionel's "exorbitant prices," but let's try to be accurate and fair .

@Landsteiner posted:

"And a big price jump compared to the other LionChief diesels too."

Those diesels Norton is linking to aren't LionChief, they are LionChief + 2.0.  Unlike simple LionChief (and the Menard's loco), they operate in conventional, Bluetooth, LionChief and TMCC modes.  They have more scale details, electrocouplers, full Railsounds, etc.  They are more like a TMCC loco from some years ago, or even Legacy than resembling a LionChief loco.  Apples and oranges .  $200 street price (single loco) vs. $600 (and that's for an A-A or A-B pair). I know people get a lot of pleasure at pointing out Lionel's "exorbitant prices," but let's try to be accurate and fair .

I think folks also miss the point that Menard's can subsidize their offerings because they are selling so much more than trains.  The overhead on trains for them is minimal.

Lionel, MTH, and the other "only trains" manufacturers and importers have to make money on the trains they sell to pay for their employees and other expenses that are only train related.  Menard's has the luxury of a lot of other products, most with a higher profit margin than trains covering the same employees.  It really is hard to compare an only trains company pricing to a trains and (if you every been in a Menard's) everything else you could think of store.

I did see another video elsewhere that really did a good job showing the engine in operation.  Much like Bob's, the horn is a dog.  That would be a priority.  The first speed step is also a doozie.  If they could just tweak the low end speed a bit to get a less rabbit start and stop that would go a long way.  I think with a few adjustment Menard's has a nice entry into the motive power arena.

@Landsteiner posted:

"And a big price jump compared to the other LionChief diesels too."

Those diesels Norton is linking to aren't LionChief, they are LionChief + 2.0.  Unlike simple LionChief (and the Menard's loco), they operate in conventional, Bluetooth, LionChief and TMCC modes.  They have more scale details, electrocouplers, full Railsounds, etc.  They are more like a TMCC loco from some years ago, or even Legacy than resembling a LionChief loco.  Apples and oranges .  $200 street price (single loco) vs. $600 (and that's for an A-A or A-B pair). I know people get a lot of pleasure at pointing out Lionel's "exorbitant prices," but let's try to be accurate and fair .

A Lionchief +2 board costs 20 bucks more than the a Lionchief Plus board or ten bucks more at the half price sale. You could still build yourself a LC+2 engine for under 2 hundred bucks or a pair of powered units for 400 instead of one powered and one dummy. Welcome to the post MTH era. Still skeptical? The new catalog awaits.

Pete

"You could still build yourself a LC+2 engine for under 2 hundred bucks or a pair of powered units for 400 instead of one powered and one dummy. "

You could also perform your own appendectomy a lot cheaper than going to the hospital and having a surgeon perform it .  But most people don't have those skills and prefer the hospital and real surgeon.

If you're going to provide your labor and expertise for free, I'll send you my LionChief locos for upgrading .  These cost savings you project are only relevant to those who can do the work themselves with efficiency and skill.  Most of us don't have that capability.

MTH didn't provide their RailKing locos with PS3 for $150 or $200 either because their staff presumably like to eat and have a place to live.  So it's got nothing to do with MTH, unless you are predicting that Lionel's prices will go up because MTH isn't around to keep them in check. That might happen, but it's the least of our problems as a hobby.  In any case, it appears Menard's is preparing to serve the budget conscious end of the hobby well.  That's a good thing. 

The prices reflect the relative cost of production, not conversion. You will have to be a surgeon, and a successful one at that, to afford new trains today.

Pete

Good morning, below is the link to my review on the Menards engine. It's about 36 minutes long so I tried to cover everything I could which includes the box opening, review on the unit itself, and almost 4 minutes of running time. If there is something I didn't cover that you want answered then please leave a comment on my YT page, as this thread moves too fast for me to keep filtering through it.

Assuming Menard's will begin producing sets of their own, what are the implications?  Loco for $150, four freight cars for $80, track and power supply for around $20.  $250 for a set, perhaps?  About what most LionChief sets go for, give or take, maybe a bit less expensive. About 10 times the price of a postwar set, but incomes are much more than 10 times higher, inflation adjusted, today.  So still not a poor person's hobby, but maybe not quite as much the rich person's hobby as in 1955.

@BNSF-Matt posted:

Good morning, below is the link to my review on the Menards engine. It's about 36 minutes long so I tried to cover everything I could which includes the box opening, review on the unit itself, and almost 4 minutes of running time. If there is something I didn't cover that you want answered then please leave a comment on my YT page, as this thread moves too fast for me to keep filtering through it.

Nice review Matt.  Thanks.  Can't wait until mine arrives.  Speed control seems like the biggest issue (and the lack of continuous horn sound).    I'll see if I can resist opening mine.

Was it wobbly?  Looked like that in the video.

John

Enjoyed the video Matt. A few suggestions for Mark or anyone that has one of these. A piece of white translucent plastic behind the number boards will diffuse the light better. Wiring the motors in series will help and what I use to lessen the jump on Williams steam engines, a current inrush limiter on a motor power wire. They cost pennies and are a Negative Temperature Thermistor (NTC)  that quickly goes to zero resistance as current passes through it assuming you select the correct value for motor current. Unlike series diodes they don’t have any effect on maximum speed as they only drop voltage initially.

It would take further testing by someone with electronic test equipment to determine if the sudden acceleration is due to the characteristic of the speed pot or the resolution of the analog to digital convertor.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Enjoyed the video Matt. A few suggestions for Mark or anyone that has one of these. A piece of white translucent plastic behind the number boards will diffuse the light better. Wiring the motors in series will help and what I use to lessen the jump on Williams steam engines, a current inrush limiter on a motor power wire. They cost pennies and are a Negative Temperature Thermistor (NTC)  that quickly goes to zero resistance as current passes through it assuming you select the correct value for motor current. Unlike series diodes they don’t have any effect on maximum speed as they only drop voltage initially.

It would take further testing by someone with electronic test equipment to determine if the sudden acceleration is due to the characteristic of the speed pot or the resolution of the analog to digital convertor.

Pete

Pete,

How do we know that the problem is not in the remote itself?

John