Does anyone know when these engines will be shipped? What is their status?
Norm
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Last I heard it is looking like a February delivery. Scott has been sending me questions about last minute detail issues so the project should be wrapping up production soon.
@GG1 4877 posted:Last I heard it is looking like a February delivery. Scott has been sending me questions about last minute detail issues so the project should be wrapping up production soon.
Great news !!! I’ll even give it an extra month as nothing Ever goes according to plan/schedule. I’ve three on order so this info allows me to plan/ budget my own pre-delivery payment schedule so as to have them “paid off” at delivery time !!!!
Cheers !!!
TrainBub
@GG1 4877 posted:Last I heard it is looking like a February delivery. Scott has been sending me questions about last minute detail issues so the project should be wrapping up production soon.
Can you share what the final count was for number of different roads? Somewhere 40-50? Lots of details to QC for sure !!!!!!!!!!
@TrainBub posted:Great news !!! I’ll even give it an extra month as nothing Ever goes according to plan/schedule. I’ve three on order so this info allows me to plan/ budget my own pre-delivery payment schedule so as to have them “paid off” at delivery time !!!!
Cheers !!!TrainBub
You could be right as shipping take a month PLUS there is the China Holiday for the whole month of January. Bottom Line, Im looking forward to my Torpedo GP7
and GP9s. Its the Quality not the Quantity!
I emailed Scott Wednesday asking the same thing, hes claims February/March delivery.
The pandemic is slowing things down,
@TrainBub posted:Can you share what the final count was for number of different roads? Somewhere 40-50? Lots of details to QC for sure !!!!!!!!!!
I don't remember the exact count but it there was a lot of overlap on GP7 vs. GP9. It was at least 35 plus as I recall though. The design matrix on this was a bit complex, but not any more so than the SD7/9. Looking forward to my GP7Ps in CNJ. :-)
@GG1 4877 posted:Looking forward to my GP7Ps in CNJ. :-)
You and me both. I have a combine and two coaches that have been waiting a long time for an accurate diesel to pull them.
They are at Sunset Models.
They made very limited numbers.
There were only 3 Grand Trunk Western GP9 locos produced.
Three numbers.
That is an extremely limited edition.
Andrew
Good news. Thanks for posting this. The wait will soon be over.Looking forward to ACL and Seaboard.
Did any of you read the last page of "Hey Scott GP7/GP9" on this site?
@falconservice posted:They are at Sunset Models.
They made very limited numbers.
There were only 3 Grand Trunk Western GP9 locos produced.
Three numbers.
That is an extremely limited edition.
Andrew
And I bet YOU GOT THEM ALL!
@superwarp1 posted:Email Scott, unlike Lionel, he answers his email/phone
It's true. I emailed him yesterday on another matter and I got a response in a couple of hours. Wow!
I wish I would have had the money in the train fund for one of these. You guys are lucky!
Scott
Can you share ?
What was the final count of Roads ? Which roads/models didn’t make the production cut ?
Got an email over the weekend, they are coming to a town near you!
@Big Jim posted:Got an email over the weekend, they are coming to a town near you!
For those that paid in advance for starters.
I got my formal shipping notice over the weekend. MY CNJ GP7s are supposed to arrive before 7pm today. UPS is stating out for delivery at the moment. Pictures as soon I can get get them!
Jonathan, You are on the hook for pics 
Mine are due Wednesday. Looking for your Photos Jonathon.
@GG1 4877 posted:I don't remember the exact count but it there was a lot of overlap on GP7 vs. GP9. It was at least 35 plus as I recall though. The design matrix on this was a bit complex, but not any more so than the SD7/9. Looking forward to my GP7Ps in CNJ. :-)
Jonathan,
Did you guys do the GP9's as the phase 2 only? I was actually going to send you an Email to ask if the phase 3's with the 48" pantop fans were made or if they would be possible as an option for a 2nd run? For guys like me who like the NKP, they had 3 different versions of GP9's. It would be fantastic to get the ph2, ph2 Passenger / torpedo boat and later ph3 all from the same builder with the same decoder.
Regards
I asked Scott M. Re phaseIII GP9 and his answer was a staunch NO WAY! Even if we ask to throw in the GP9 "B"units for UP, PRR, PC, CR.
Hard to understand how decisions are made on what is and isn't made. Seems like some people have more pull than others. That's just my opinion.
@jonnyspeed posted:Hard to understand how decisions are made on what is and isn't made. Seems like some people have more pull than others. That's just my opinion.
How so? Curious on your thoughts there. Truth is the factory has the most pull on variations to hold price point and this project is second to the SD7-9 in terms of variations.
My CNJs arrived today. Some quick cell phone selfies. Outstanding model all around.
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Looks phenomenal!
Thanks for posting the photos, Jonathan. They look great! My two CNJs have to travel all the way across the country so they’re due to arrive on Monday. Really looking forward to receiving these...my first purchase from Sunset/3rd Rail.
We really need videos!!!
Thanks for the pics
@GG1 4877 posted:How so? Curious on your thoughts there. Truth is the factory has the most pull on variations to hold price point and this project is second to the SD7-9 in terms of variations.
Since you asked, here is what confuses me:
1.) Falconservice is up above in this thread talking about how there were only 3 engines made for GTW in total:
They made very limited numbers. There were only 3 Grand Trunk Western GP9 locos produced. Three numbers. That is an extremely limited edition.
I know for a fact that there were at least that many requests for the B&O GP9's in the blue freight scheme. I had 2 on order when it was cancelled and then offered to put an additional 2 units on order right before the closing deadline just to help get them made and was simply told "NO".
2.) Based on Prrhorseshoecurve's response to my post on ph3 GP9's:
I asked Scott M. Re phaseIII GP9 and his answer was a staunch NO WAY! Even if we ask to throw in the GP9 "B"units for UP, PRR, PC, CR.
I know of at least 5 guys (myslef included) who reached out about the ph3 version and all got a firm no. I understand this run was apparently ph2 only, but I simply do not understand why ph3's cannot even be advertised to see the potential interest. In addition, I actually held off on purchasing the NKP GP7's and ph2 GP9's due to not knowing if the the ph2 torpedo boats and ph3 versions for NKP would ever be made.
All I am saying is it is hard to understand why certain models get advertised, then go into production, while some will not even be considered. I truly cannot understand the deciding factors, but to be 100% honest with you, it seems to me that it comes down to who is the most outspoken on this forum.
Hey, business is business, you guys are free to do what you think is best, but I'm just telling you: I went from a potential of having 8 different GP's to order to only getting 2 GP7's and no GP9's at all just as a result of how these decisions get made. I'll leave you with this: I still have quite a bit on preorder with Scott and I truly appreciate what you guys do for us in O scale - literally everything I have in B&O is from Sunset. But I think you guys are missing out on alot of potential sales because of how the decision process gets implemented.
PS. Those CNJ units are show stoppers BTW!
Start a second run campaign. It works.
- Crank
@Former Member posted:Since you asked, here is what confuses me:
1.) Falconservice is up above in this thread talking about how there were only 3 engines made for GTW in total:
They made very limited numbers. There were only 3 Grand Trunk Western GP9 locos produced. Three numbers. That is an extremely limited edition.
I know for a fact that there were at least that many requests for the B&O GP9's in the blue freight scheme. I had 2 on order when it was cancelled and then offered to put an additional 2 units on order right before the closing deadline just to help get them made and was simply told "NO".
2.) Based on Prrhorseshoecurve's response to my post on ph3 GP9's:
I asked Scott M. Re phaseIII GP9 and his answer was a staunch NO WAY! Even if we ask to throw in the GP9 "B"units for UP, PRR, PC, CR.
I know of at least 5 guys (myslef included) who reached out about the ph3 version and all got a firm no. I understand this run was apparently ph2 only, but I simply do not understand why ph3's cannot even be advertised to see the potential interest. In addition, I actually held off on purchasing the NKP GP7's and ph2 GP9's due to not knowing if the the ph2 torpedo boats and ph3 versions for NKP would ever be made.
All I am saying is it is hard to understand why certain models get advertised, then go into production, while some will not even be considered. I truly cannot understand the deciding factors, but to be 100% honest with you, it seems to me that it comes down to who is the most outspoken on this forum.
Hey, business is business, you guys are free to do what you think is best, but I'm just telling you: I went from a potential of having 8 different GP's to order to only getting 2 GP7's and no GP9's at all just as a result of how these decisions get made. I'll leave you with this: I still have quite a bit on preorder with Scott and I truly appreciate what you guys do for us in O scale - literally everything I have in B&O is from Sunset. But I think you guys are missing out on alot of potential sales because of how the decision process gets implemented.
PS. Those CNJ units are show stoppers BTW!
I don't get involved in the business side of things often on what roads stay or go. However, the phase III variation was a no go from the start for the first run because the factory gave so much push back on the the number of variations on this particular model at the price point they were sold at. When factoring the road specific details alone between GP7s and 9s there were 8 tooling variations on the body. 8 variations on the skirting, 21 horn variations, and 5 light variations all across 52 different paint schemes. This doesn't factor in the variations between GP7s and 9s when considering the variations on the same paint schemes between models.
As more photos come out, I'd say there will be enough interest for a 2nd run. While nothing can ever be promised there are possibilities to add roads and even perhaps the Phase III variation of the GP9. I can also say that there were more than 3 GTW units produced.
It is never the goal to slight anyone. Scott tries the best he can to get as many models out as possible. Sometimes though it does get overwhelming and this project was one of those projects.
For the CNJ GP7P I am ecstatic. This is the only accurate one I have seen in O scale and the flat long hood is a huge difference. I ordered four. My CNJ roster is starting to finally round out on power side as these were a mainstay of passenger and freight operations well past CNJ's existence.
CXS Troy: I owe you an explanation: At some point in time I had to trim the production down from over 70 to 50 GP7 and GP9 Road Names / Paint Schemes. When I did that I used the criteria anything less than 7 was suspect (expecting them to be 10 or more at the time of freezing reservations) and anything that was the same road for GP7s and 9s, the lesser order should be combined with the greater, only with customers permission. In the time between then and final production quantities some orders changed due to cancellations, substitutions and that left me with very few GTW orders. But I had already made my deal with the factory, created the painting and lettering drawings for those 50 and they accepted the smaller quantity for some of these roads in order to keep things moving forward.
This is not how I want to do business, but I am forced to make decisions to rein in a wildly diverse project. As it is, this project exceeded the tipping point that I often refer to. Where the pain of the previous project affects the cost and prices of all future projects. The factory (2 Guys that own it), made it clear that they will not do this again for the same price. Every paint color costs $100 in samples and more to order. Every decal color has to be proven and then sometimes re-ordered 2 or 3 times until they exactly match the paint color. There is no one stop shop for these guys to get this done. There are a variety of ever changing sub contractors and vendors for each project which they need to manage. This one took too long, cost too much and thus we have to pay more going forward, FOREVER.
There are no other builders than these guys that would go though so much trouble to make trains. If I pressure them too hard, they will fold and that will be that.
I have agreed to their reasonable demands and want to make sure they don't have financial difficulties in the process of making these projects. It's very much a two way street.
I do hope you all enjoy these models.
Furthermore: THANK YOU JONATHAN, RICHARD and ALL THE FOLKS THE REACH OUT WITH DATA AND INFORMATION DURING THE DESIGN PROCESS.
Many thanks for an in detail explanation on how these things are done!!!
one only hopes all the variations on the mopac cars will not jeopardize the whole project.
Thanks Jonathan. Ready for some boxes. They look great but need some N and W red and black.
Scott,
Thanks for the detailed explanation of what you did to make this project a success. Everyone involved should appreciate your effort to produce something terrific.
MELGAR
Just for some fun: Here's a picture of our warehouse with the 3R models matched up with invoices. We then go to each one, check again, put the UPS tags on them and slip the invoice in the box. Monday they went out. When someone calls to say they will be away and to hold their shipment, we have to walk up and down the isles of boxes to find their order. It's very tedious.
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@sdmann posted:Just for some fun: Here's a picture of our warehouse with the 3R models matched up with invoices. We then go to each one, check again, put the UPS tags on them and slip the invoice in the box. Monday they went out. When someone calls to say they will be away and to hold their shipment, we have to walk up and down the isles of boxes to find their order. It's very tedious.
Well, I hope not that many “holds”. But On the good side are a few extra “heart healthy” steps for the day. 👍👍👍
Cheers !!!
@sdmann posted:
Reminds me of the final scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark"
All I know is I got my UPS notice! I cant wait to see that PRR GP7 "torpedo tube"! Thanks again Scott M.for making such a unique unit!
Jonathan,
Nice units , Thanks for posting - Was the CNJ Red/White (Liberty) scheme produced
With all the build-up and excitement , it feels like Christmas eve. I am looking forward to seeing the big brown truck pulling in to my driveway.
@Conductor Earl posted:With all the build-up and excitement , it feels like Christmas eve. I am looking forward to seeing the big brown truck pulling in to my driveway.
Yah. Lots of us like that out there !!!! I’ve CB&Q, SP, and T&P scheduled to show up on Friday !!!! Can’t wait !!!
cheers !!!
@EMD posted:Jonathan,
Nice units , Thanks for posting - Was the CNJ Red/White (Liberty) scheme produced
Thanks! Only the as delivered scheme was produced. While in CNJ service the GP7P wore 4 paint schemes with the "Red Baron" or "Coast Guard" scheme being applied in 1972. I like that paint scheme as well. A little out of era for my 2 rail equipment, but still an attractive scheme. Not a lot of locomotives got that final scheme. Some RS3s, 1 SD40, and a handful of the GP7Ps as I recall.
The produced scheme known as the "Toothpaste" scheme was the longest lasting from 1952 to as late as 1964 on some units. CNJ simplified the scheme in the early 60's to remove the stripes when units were repainted. In the mid 60's CNJ adopted B&O colors for most of it's hood units while the cab units were being retired.
If there’s a second run, I’d be nice to see some CB&Q red birds!
Photographer credit K.B King Jr. Collection: Moss E. Hulsey.
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I hope another run will be in the future. I need some SP geeps and SD-7’s or -9’s. I’m just finally getting back to a position where I can once again spend money on trains. Been stuck on the sidelines for 9 or 10 years and missed out on a lot of cool stuff. Some of it is rather hard to find now.
@Ryan Selvius posted:I hope another run will be in the future. I need some SP geeps and SD-7’s or -9’s. I’m just finally getting back to a position where I can once again spend money on trains. Been stuck on the sidelines for 9 or 10 years and missed out on a lot of cool stuff. Some of it is rather hard to find now.
I wouldn't be surprised, if Scott has enough standby reservations a second run of GP7/9 will be in the offering like the second run of F3
Cant wait for more photos. Only Jonathan so far.
@SANTIAGOP23 posted:If there’s a second run, I’d be nice to see some CB&Q red birds!
Photographer credit K.B King Jr. Collection: Moss E. Hulsey.
I’d be in for one too ! Right now though, the “Q” of offerings is pretty long - as are My reservations. And I’d like to see a second run of E5-6s before a run 2 GPs. I bet after giving the GPs a “rest” for awhile, we might eventually see a run 2.
Cheers !!!
I hope someone can post a picture of the Nickel Plate Road version
@Cogen1981 posted:I hope someone can post a picture of the Nickel Plate Road version
Me too. Actually Scott I think said there were 50 models - so I hope to see pix of ALL of them !!!!
@Former Member posted:2.) Based on Prrhorseshoecurve's response to my post on ph3 GP9's:
I asked Scott M. Re phaseIII GP9 and his answer was a staunch NO WAY! Even if we ask to throw in the GP9 "B"units for UP, PRR, PC, CR.
I know of at least 5 guys (myslef included) who reached out about the ph3 version and all got a firm no. I understand this run was apparently ph2 only, but I simply do not understand why ph3's cannot even be advertised to see the potential interest. In addition, I actually held off on purchasing the NKP GP7's and ph2 GP9's due to not knowing if the the ph2 torpedo boats and ph3 versions for NKP would ever be made.
All I am saying is it is hard to understand why certain models get advertised, then go into production, while some will not even be considered. I truly cannot understand the deciding factors, but to be 100% honest with you, it seems to me that it comes down to who is the most outspoken on this forum.
Hey, business is business, you guys are free to do what you think is best, but I'm just telling you: I went from a potential of having 8 different GP's to order to only getting 2 GP7's and no GP9's at all just as a result of how these decisions get made. I'll leave you with this: I still have quite a bit on preorder with Scott and I truly appreciate what you guys do for us in O scale - literally everything I have in B&O is from Sunset. But I think you guys are missing out on alot of potential sales because of how the decision process gets implemented.
PS. Those CNJ units are show stoppers BTW!
I'm now a bit confused, what exactly is a phase III GP9? I would have thought that the N&W versions which have 48" fans (and as shown on 3rdRail's advertisement) would be considered phase III. Yes, there are other things like vents on battery box doors and such.
Steve
Those CGW units look excellent!
GG1, my CGW is due in from UPS Friday. Should be a good weekend.
@SANTIAGOP23 posted:Looks phenomenal!
Doesn't it, though?
@sdmann posted:Just for some fun: Here's a picture of our warehouse with the 3R models matched up with invoices. We then go to each one, check again, put the UPS tags on them and slip the invoice in the box. Monday they went out. When someone calls to say they will be away and to hold their shipment, we have to walk up and down the isles of boxes to find their order. It's very tedious.
Don’t people realize they can have it held at UPS or FedEx? Sorry you have that extra hassle.
And great job BTW, that model Jonathan posted is beautiful.
I regret sitting this one out, hope Scott does another run, but I am not holding my breath.
How high is the pilot off the top of the rails?? ...Just concerned if these could handle moderate grade transitions
The Pictures look 100% awesome so far, keep them coming!!
@Bruk posted:Got my SP&S today. #150 & #152. Wish they had the all weather windows. But I can live without for now. Colors are spot on with the paints I use. These are my first 3rd Rail Diesels.
Very nice. A classic color scheme for sure. 👍
Mark in Oregon
Videos??? Any one, any one???
@rplst8 posted:Don’t people realize they can have it held at UPS or FedEx? Sorry you have that extra hassle.
And great job BTW, that model Jonathan posted is beautiful.
My UPS "my choice" wanted approx $5.00 or $10.00 upcharge depending on what option I chose to hold or change delivery place or time. Not really "my choice" as far as I can tell. I took Friday off from work to get locos and they changed the delivery date to today on me...I prefer fed ex as they allow you to divert it and hold package at a local drug store or dollar store for free. Just my experience in my area..
@I'd rather be ice fishing posted:My UPS "my choice" wanted approx $5.00 or $10.00 upcharge depending on what option I chose to hold or change delivery place or time. Not really "my choice" as far as I can tell. I took Friday off from work to get locos and they changed the delivery date to today on me...I prefer fed ex as they allow you to divert it and hold package at a local drug store or dollar store for free. Just my experience in my area..
Shipping Anything has gotten Really Expensive !!! They have their ways to 5 & 10 you. I’ve been told that many ups stores are franchise stores. I guess these “extras” are how they boost income.
A train store that I deal with preferentially uses FedEx. He’ll only use USPS or UPS if necessary - like requested by buyer. Their (FedEx) rates are less expensive. The buyer wins obviously but the seller does too if selling via eBay - the eBay take % nicks shipping as if it’s no different than the shipped item. I personally have moved to FedEx for shipping. Has become my personal preference.
Just saying ... Do your own research. 😬
Cheers !!!
I've never been upcharged by UPS for requesting a package be held at the facility.
@EscapeRocks posted:I've never been upcharged by UPS for requesting a package be held at the facility.
Me either.
Is this a thread on 3rdrail geeps or shipping costs/methods? I'm confused
@EscapeRocks posted:I've never been upcharged by UPS for requesting a package be held at the facility.
UPS does charge for holding packages. I believe is a one time charge per year unless you join their premium service. I’m not sure if it kicks in after a certain number of holds. I did have quite a few holds last year and was charged once.
Here is a quick photo my my SP GP-9. The real 5623 doesn’t have the dynamic break (don’t know if it ever did), so I will likely renumber it to something more appropriate. She’s a beauty none the less. Sorry for the poor lighting.
-Brian
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@WinstonB posted:UPS does charge for holding packages. I believe is a one time charge per year unless you join their premium service. I’m not sure if it kicks in after a certain number of holds. I did have quite a few holds last year and was charged once.
I have never been charged for a hold at the facility, but I have been charged to redirect and hold for pickup at the UPS store.
-Brian
@WinstonB posted:UPS does charge for holding packages. I believe is a one time charge per year unless you join their premium service. I’m not sure if it kicks in after a certain number of holds. I did have quite a few holds last year and was charged once.
When I use UPS and have it delivered to my local UPS store, the UPS store charges me $8.00 per package for a "storage" charge.
My GP9 is being delivered to my house, which I didn't think I asked for, but that's that. The shipping notice says signature required, so I'll have to hang around the house all day Friday and watch for the truck, or else the Geep starts making laps on the UPS truck until I happen to catch it.
@superwarp1 posted:Is this a thread on 3rdrail geeps or shipping costs/methods? I'm confused
This Golden Book, Tootle, a childhood favorite of mine, explains how distractions will tend to get us off track.
When I was asked to help Dad with a project, chores, repair of my this-and-that, et alia, ...and my mind and/or body would wander off elsewhere for a brief moment..., it was "HEY, TOOTLE!! Over here!! Focus!!"
At that age it was always easy to learn lessons about life when it was presented in a choo-choo manner! After all, I was totally hooked by then...often to distraction.
And here we are, 70+ years later....
Meanwhile, 'back at the ranch'.....I believe the subject is geeps. Love the pics! They're all gorgeous!
KD
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@Valpac posted:Here is a quick photo my my SP GP-9. The real 5623 doesn’t have the dynamic break (don’t know if it ever did), so I will likely renumber it to something more appropriate. She’s a beauty none the less. Sorry for the poor lighting.
-Brian
Seems like an expensive mistake...
@Valpac posted:Here is a quick photo my my SP GP-9. The real 5623 doesn’t have the dynamic break (don’t know if it ever did), so I will likely renumber it to something more appropriate. She’s a beauty none the less. Sorry for the poor lighting.
-Brian
There's a lot about 5623 on the net. It was a dual purpose freight/passenger, no dynamic brake but it had torpedo tubes. It was also preserved, restored, and is in use on a tourist railroad.
@CentralFan1976 posted:Seems like an expensive mistake...
Only need to change one digit... https://railpictures.net/photo/584590/
And here's one with the over/under lettering - https://railpictures.net/photo/642150/
Here's another with only a one digit change, and has over/under lettering - https://railpictures.net/photo/642397/
@rplst8 posted:Only need to change one digit... https://railpictures.net/photo/584590/
And here's one with the over/under lettering - https://railpictures.net/photo/642150/
Here's another with only a one digit change, and has over/under lettering - https://railpictures.net/photo/642397/
It’s not one digit, it’s one digit, SIX times.
That’s only assuming the numberboards don’t need to be completely redone.
I’m with Mario...why is this a user fix?
If you want service, don't complain here, email me. I don't do customer service from the forum.
Scott Mann
1. Phase III requires an additional shell mold ($$$$) for the larger radiator fans.
2. Hold is many times a financial decision as much as who will be where when. I get many of my things from financial holds that end up being cancellations.
3. Blame Jonathan/us for the SP passenger units being freight units. WE, the reviewers, probably screwed up creating the matrix which is supposed to differentiate. Unless, SP passenger units were one of the variations the builder said no to and so an assumption was made, by who knows who, to do freight units. Yeah, that stuff happens and nobody knows it until they are here. Very frustrating on all sides.
Well, I got my C&NW Geep with the torpedo tubes on top. Beautifully done as always! No problems, complaints or gripes. Guys, you killed it.
Dick
@CBQer posted:Well, I got my C&NW Geep with the torpedo tubes on top. Beautifully done as always! No problems, complaints or gripes. Guys, you killed it.
Dick
Got pics to post [office]?
Scott
I'm sincerely happy you guys tried to do my GTW GP9's even though there were not enough orders, but I'm sorry to say they're terrible.
I mean, not even close.
Please know my criticism below is not personal.
Here's a photo of a RedCaboose model approved by the railroad in the 1990s alongside your model (front)
Black roof? No. Never.
The artwork for the logo is awful...
Wrong red and number boards
Prototype refrences
I'm not angry Scott, just really disappointed.
I'm going to need a refund or a professional re-paint.
let me know what you can do.
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If you google GT GP9s I see black cab roofs on several engines, but who am I to judge.
https://www.google.com/search?...imgrc=vn-KxCB0KhU_2M
Probably painted that way to protect against rust in their later years. I can't post those pictures here due to IP rules but I put the link up there. The return policy is in your paperwork. There were only 3 made, and I have someone waiting for one to become available. I am sorry your not happy with how we chose to paint them. But I am sure we can find a good home for her.
I am thinking the gp7 is a fantasy scheme? Can any c&o experts chime in? I think the gp9 looks good...but the 7 floored me with the dynamic brakes and low number, a google search did not help me..
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I received my L&N GP7 2 Rail Number 400. My only regret is I did not order a 3 Rail version too. This is my first 3rd Rail Locomotive. If it runs as good as it looks I got a winner. I have been collection 2 Rail L&N and Southern rolling stock since 2008. I am planning a small 1 switch shelf layout to enjoy my small 2 Rail collection.
@sdmann posted:If you google GT GP9s I see black cab roofs on several engines, but who am I to judge.
https://www.google.com/search?...imgrc=vn-KxCB0KhU_2M
Probably painted that way to protect against rust in their later years. I can't post those pictures here due to IP rules but I put the link up there. The return policy is in your paperwork. There were only 3 made, and I have someone waiting for one to become available. I am sorry your not happy with how we chose to paint them. But I am sure we can find a good home for her.
Hmmmm, me thinks he is talking about the lack of the bell on the long hood and the air tanks on the roof. No????
Awesome
@I'd rather be ice fishing posted:I am thinking the gp7 is a fantasy scheme? Can any c&o experts chime in? I think the gp9 looks good...but the 7 floored me with the dynamic brakes and low number, a google search did not help me..
C & O definitely had GP7s with dynamic brakes...
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/238488/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/552839/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/626117/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/313654/
The number does seem low though. Most pictures I’ve seen were 15xx and 57xx - 58xx series.
@I'd rather be ice fishing posted:I am thinking the gp7 is a fantasy scheme? Can any c&o experts chime in? I think the gp9 looks good...but the 7 floored me with the dynamic brakes and low number, a google search did not help me..
The lowest number I see on the C&O GP7 roster is 1503 (of the 114 GP7s they had). Not sure what the no. 246 represents.
BTW, the paint on the left side of the rear of the engine shown in one of your pictures (see below) looks somewhat uneven. Is that just something with the photo?
@rdunniii posted:Hmmmm, me thinks he is talking about the lack of the bell on the long hood and the air tanks on the roof. No????
No. Me thinks what you thinks is not what he's talking about. Besides the black roof, he specifically mentioned his objections only to the quality of the lettering and to the wrong colored paint on the ends.
@breezinup posted:The lowest number I see on the C&O GP7 roster is 1503 (of the 114 GP7s they had). Not sure what the no. 246 represents.
BTW, the paint on the left side of the rear of the engine shown in one of your pictures (see below) looks somewhat uneven. Is that just something with the photo?
If you mean the steps that is just glare from my bad photos. the yellow stripes are rather poorly done and not centered where the v starts though..My books don't mention any numbers below 5800 for the gp7. but I wanted to ask as I am not a c&o expert..
@rplst8 posted:C & O definitely had GP7s with dynamic brakes...
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/238488/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/552839/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/626117/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/313654/
The number does seem low though. Most pictures I’ve seen were 15xx and 57xx - 58xx series.
I did know some of the gp7s had dynamic brakes but was disappointed because the model illustrated by sunset did not have them and I wanted it to contrast to the gp9 with dynamic brakes, that is not the deal breaker that the fantasy number is though..I have emailed Scott. I just had the idea these all were to be based faithfully to the prototypes, I'm sure all will be resolved.
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...1#154730474185648651
I've been a member of the GTW Historical Society and worked with Atlas, MTH, Weaver, and Lionel on GTW models in the past.
The standard GTW locomotive paint specs. are blue car body with red ends.
They got rusty and dirty alright, (like the one below) but the roofs weren't painted black.
Fresh paint. Blue roof.
I didn't see any black roofs in the posted google search link.
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, I'm really not.
I just don't want any other manufacturers who may be viewing this or see the 3rd rail model that black roofs were correct.
I'll stop my foaming now... 🤣
I was just really looking forward to having a GTW GP9 from 3rd Rail
Thanks for the no-hassle refund Scott.
I appreciate it.
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@sdmann posted:If you google GT GP9s I see black cab roofs on several engines, but who am I to judge.
https://www.google.com/search?...imgrc=vn-KxCB0KhU_2M
Probably painted that way to protect against rust in their later years. I can't post those pictures here due to IP rules but I put the link up there. The return policy is in your paperwork. There were only 3 made, and I have someone waiting for one to become available. I am sorry your not happy with how we chose to paint them. But I am sure we can find a good home for her.
Some also did have the more squared off and taller “GT”
https://images.app.goo.gl/mRGhAFfi9w9vaBtw6
And white on black number boards
The Grand Trunk Western 'GT' logo looks distorted on the model shown.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/57688015@N08/5521195265
Andrew
The appearance needs to be focused on the GTW 4400 series.
Andrew
Can the GT logo be removed?
Perhaps a decal can be applied over it.
Andrew
http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...ture.aspx?id=1411182
This is a good photo of GTW 4439.
Notice the logo and the number boards.
Andrew
The number chosen could have been GTW 4930 with the black number boards and white letters
https://www.flickr.com/photos/irvinle1/39477013261/
The red color is how the bright orange-red looks in shadows.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/irvinle1/12917809265/
Andrew
This website has a photo of GTW 4432 for comparison.
http://www.railroadmichigan.com/grandtrunk.html
Andrew
Gotta love when all the “experts” want to throw in their 10 cents after the models show up!
Scott does his best and is in a whole different realm of accuracy and customer service than anybody else in O scale. 50 some odd variations with countless era and road specific details! Cut the guy some slack. If your not happy, he will take care of things one way or another!
And if your REALLY not happy, then have fun waiting till 2031 when the next Atlas engines are scheduled to show up
@BigJohn&theWork posted:Gotta love when all the “experts” want to throw in their 10 cents after the models show up!
Scott does his best and is in a whole different realm of accuracy and customer service than anybody else in O scale. 50 some odd variations with countless era and road specific details! Cut the guy some slack. If your not happy, he will take care of things one way or another!
And if your REALLY not happy, then have fun waiting till 2031 when the next Atlas engines are scheduled to show up
Or pay someone to paint it the way you want it and not hope the manufacture does it right.
@rplst8 posted:Some also did have the more squared off and taller “GT”
https://images.app.goo.gl/mRGhAFfi9w9vaBtw6
And white on black number boards
The logos were standardized with only two variations. None looked like the one on this model.
The 1960's era Black & Red scheme used black number boards with white letters.
All post-1973 GTW units in the Blue & Red scheme had white number boards.
The GP38 you linked to with black number boards was a repair job by the Illinois Central shops in Homewood.
This unit was repaired after the GTW was taken over by CN.
@falconservice posted:The red color is how the bright orange-red looks in shadows.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/irvinle1/12917809265/
Andrew
It may be possible to find a rare photo that appears to show that, but this really has no bearing on, and is not an excuse for, the fact that the cherry red paint used on the ends of the 3rd Rail model is nowhere close to the prototypical color used by the GTW.
That said, as everyone knows, there are a lot of moving parts in this manufacturing method, working with a Far East manufacturer doing numerous different models with different paint schemes, as Scott has mentioned, and sometimes unplanned "stuff" happens. Goes with the territory, both for the company selling the engine, and, it's apparent, for the customer buying it. At some point, an undertaking can become too large for the particular manufacturing method to handle, and mistakes may get made. When that threshold is reached in this type of production, I don't know, but maybe it was.
@Bruk posted:Or pay someone to paint it the way you want it and not hope the manufacture does it right.
There is no such thing as right with models, just close enough to right which is subjective. If you feel they aren’t close enough once they’re made then the best that can happen is good customer service and with Scott you can count on that. The next step would be an improvement if there is a second run which you can also feel pretty good about with 3rd rail/GGD products if second runs happen.
But I was getting more at the fact that all these GT&W historians came out of the woodwork after the models arrived. If you have a specific model that you have a vested interest in being “right” then offer your time and knowledge up in the design process... or don’t and take your refund and be on your way (which is what the guy ended up doing). Had the GT&W historian who has seemingly worked with every other company, done the same for his own roadname with 3rd rail, it would seem we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:There is no such thing as right with models, just close enough to right which is subjective. If you feel they aren’t close enough once they’re made then the best that can happen is good customer service and with Scott you can count on that. The next step would be an improvement if there is a second run which you can also feel pretty good about with 3rd rail/GGD products if second runs happen.
But I was getting more at the fact that all these GT&W historians came out of the woodwork after the models arrived. If you have a specific model that you have a vested interest in being “right” then offer your time and knowledge up in the design process... or don’t and take your refund and be on your way (which is what the guy ended up doing). Had the GT&W historian who has seemingly worked with every other company, done the same for his own roadname with 3rd rail, it would seem we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
I did contact Scott.
Right after he said they were doing the run.
Over the course of two years.
I never received an answer.
Save your lecture for someone else.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:There is no such thing as right with models, just close enough to right which is subjective. If you feel they aren’t close enough once they’re made then the best that can happen is good customer service and with Scott you can count on that. The next step would be an improvement if there is a second run which you can also feel pretty good about with 3rd rail/GGD products if second runs happen.
But I was getting more at the fact that all these GT&W historians came out of the woodwork after the models arrived. If you have a specific model that you have a vested interest in being “right” then offer your time and knowledge up in the design process... or don’t and take your refund and be on your way (which is what the guy ended up doing). Had the GT&W historian who has seemingly worked with every other company, done the same for his own roadname with 3rd rail, it would seem we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Excellent Comment Big John !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 100% with you !!! 👍😬
@richtrow posted:I did contact Scott.
Right after he said they were doing the run.
Over the course of two years.
I never received an answer.
Save your lecture for someone else.
He’s a busy guy running a small buisness. Sometimes a follow up email or two are required to get his attention (Kinda like posting the same thing multiple times in this thread).
But you got your refund, someone else will get some much discussed GT&W geeps, and life goes on.
I’m not trying to beat a dead horse either. There were some obvious shortcomings on that roadname and it’s now been well established.
I just can’t stand all the negativity around what is such a fantastic run of engines that no one else in their wildest dreams would even attempt... and I’d like him to keep attempting such ambitious runs in the future.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:Gotta love when all the “experts” want to throw in their 10 cents after the models show up!
@BigJohn&theWork posted:But I was getting more at the fact that all these GT&W historians came out of the woodwork after the models arrived. If you have a specific model that you have a vested interest in being “right” then offer your time and knowledge up in the design process....
Well, you can't really evaluate a model until you see what the finished product looks like, i.e., after the models show up, so it's hardly unexpected for people to critique a model after they actually see it.
Also, as to something as obvious as the cherry red paint on the ends of the GTW model, how many customers would have anticipated that an error like that could have been made? And who could have anticipated that the roof would end up being painted black? To what extent does the consumer have a responsibility to monitor every aspect of the design and overseas production planning, or else accept whatever he gets without complaint?
Personally, I don't think Rich (who critiqued his GTW model) was being negative. He was gracious to Scott, and simply pointed out the things he saw were incorrect in the model, and said he was disappointed by them. So what? If someone sees errors in his model, there's nothing wrong with pointing them out. They should be pointed out. Some people may want to label such comments as "being negative." I don't see it that way at all. A critique and negativism are different things entirely.
The Grand Trunk Western 1970 to 1990 scheme for the GP9 locomotives is very distinct and well documented in many books and on many websites.
The numberboards are the design that were applied to the black GTW locomotives between 1960-1970.
It does not match the much more accurate Lionel GTW SD38 that was produced and sold in 2020.
Andrew
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@breezinup posted:Well, you can't really evaluate a model until you see what the finished product looks like, i.e., after the models show up, so it's hardly unexpected for people to critique a model after they actually see it.
Also, as to something as obvious as the cherry red paint on the ends of the GTW model, how many customers would have anticipated that an error like that could have been made? And who could have anticipated that the roof would end up being painted black? To what extent does the consumer have a responsibility to monitor every aspect of the design and overseas production planning, or else accept whatever he gets without complaint?
You actually can. You can involve yourself in the design process, especially if you have a unique skill to bring to the table; such as expertise on paint tones.
I seem to recall this same paint color discussion every time a new product comes out...
The actual color tone as people perceive it, view it, and remember it is subjective. It changes over the years, looks different in different photos and yes can even look different on drift cards compared to the brand new painted prototype. It can even look different on 2 different engines painted with the same paint if the primer was applied in different conditions. There are endless factors which effect paint color.
That’s only one part of the conversation. The next is lighting. I believe you have read this before as excellently explained by Rusty Tarque.
Reflect back on everything that has happened in our world since these models were announced. Consider the size of the company and the tireless efforts by many (in o some cases through countless hours of unpaid research or contribution of information). Consider the incredible scale of what was accomplished in this production run. Scott bends over backwards to bring us the very best AND he makes it right when people are unhappy regardless of the merit of their grievance.
It really comes down to, you either like the color tones of the models you have personally purchased and are holding in your hands or you don’t. Same for all other aspects of the model. If you don’t like it, Scott goes way out of his way to make sure your are satisfied in the form of a full refund and I believe even covers the return shipping (I don’t know for absolute certain as I have never returned a model to 3rd rail).
Then someone else who thought they would never see such a uniquely detailed model and missed out on the reservation will have the lucky chance to purchase it. However, it really is a shame when people who have not purchased it or been involved in the design process whatsoever, ruin that excitement by doing something like endlessly trolling subjective paint tones.
This whole thing is supposed to be fun, exciting, and for many a brief escape from the troubles of the world. Don’t be the guy that ruins that excitement for potential new customers or those of us who are longtime loyal customers of GGD/3rd rail. I’ve got a lot of one off things I would love to see Scott make someday as many of his customers do. Please don’t get in the way of that. If it’s not good enough for you, then build it and paint it yourself.
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@falconservice posted:It does not match the much more accurate Lionel GTW SD38 that was produced and sold in 2020.
Except that red doesn’t match either, the logo still doesn’t look correct, and trucks don’t extend under the steps.
Well, I'm not the one who brought up the paint issue. And noone's doing any trolling. Not everyone looks at things through rose-colored glasses. If someone critiques something, you shouldn't let it spoil your fun, but if you want to criticize those who discuss issues, and paint that (sorry) as trolling, you're free to do that. You may have missed comments made earlier. Noone's blaming anyone. There's nothing easy about what Scott's doing, and everyone loves what he does. He works hard to give customers great products that noone else can, or does. But saying an occasional color is off has nothing to do with that. LOTS of people have been criticizing Lionel of late for their wrong colors. Does that mean they're "trolling?" Nope. The point is to call attention to things that can be improved, for the purpose of making them better.
Well, enough of all this, at least for me. You do have some valid points, at least to a point. But my Soo Line Geep is supposed to come in tomorrow; if it's painted purple, I may mention it.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:...If it’s not good enough for you, then build it and paint it yourself.
Yeah... whatever happened to doing stuff like that? 🙂
Mark in Oregon
I am mainly getting at the detrimental and skewed image this thread paints to new comers to 3rd rail or those who are eagerly awaiting geeps in the mail. I’ve got no problem with criticism but when a thread is posted about a product with 50 some odd variants and multiple pages of it are people rehashing a situation which was quickly addressed by Scott that represents a minuscule fraction of the production, it’s not accomplishing anything productive. I’d like more people to turn towards Scott’s products which ultimately helps his buisness and opens up the potential for more unique o scale models to be brought to market.
You are free to post whatever you want. If you want to criticize, go ahead. If you want to do the paint color thing, go ahead and I’ll continue to point out how pointless it is to do so. It is trolling when you do it every time a new product shows up and the same color/light debate is rehashed.
I’m just saying it’s not productive as it wrongfully turns people away or makes them more hesitant to purchase from a company they are just finding out about when they see all the incessant criticism that is not actually representative of the production run. What is productive is to email Scott and give him your criticism directly if you think it is warranted. If he receives enough of the same thoughts from people, it may help improve a future run and if it is just your perception of something, then it does not detrimentally effect the unique buisness that he has built up.
If you look hard enough, there is something wrong with every model you own and there always will be. Telling the world about it is not going to help but telling the guy that designs and imports them may just help.
When it comes to Lionel or anyone else, I vote with my dollars. Also of note, Lionel’s success as a buisness is not dependent on the prototypical accuracy of their high end models but more on how many ready to run sets they can sell. Some bad press about prototypical accuracy is not going to do all that much to Lionel.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:I’m just saying it’s not productive as it wrongfully turns people away or makes them more hesitant to purchase from a company they are just finding out about when they see all the incessant criticism that is not actually representative of the production run. What is productive is to email Scott and give him your criticism directly if you think it is warranted. If he receives enough of the same thoughts from people, it may help improve a future run and if it is just your perception of something, then it does not detrimentally effect the unique buisness that he has built up.
If you look hard enough, there is something wrong with every model you own and there always will be. Telling the world about it is not going to help but telling the guy that designs and imports them may just help.
When Scott did the E7s there was a paint problem with the NYC versions (on the first run). Inside the lightning stripe it was silver instead of gray. Thankfully, there were criticisms on this forum and I found out about it. I was on the fence on getting one but after hearing that I was glad I didn't order one. However for the second run Scott announced that the paint problem would be taken care of and I ordered one. I got it and it was perfect. I was very glad it worked out for me the way it did. I have yet to paint a model but I would not want my first paint job to the NYC Lightning Stripe scheme. All I am saying is that I don't think it is bad if someone politely posts criticism of any given model. It serves to educate everyone on that particular model not just now but also if the model comes up for sale on the secondary market years later. I was not turned away from Scott/3rd Rail products because of the criticism of NYC E7 on this forum. In fact the publicity of the E7s pushed me over the edge to wanting to buy one and I said to myself if there is a second run and the NYC paint is corrected I am definitely getting one which was exactly what happened. Hey, no train company is perfect. I know Scott makes a great product and a mishap once in a while will not turn me off to his products.
As for these GP9s I am sorry I didn't order one. I really like them. They look very realistic the way they sit on the trucks. I don't dislike the China Drive as much as other 2 railers but they always seem to sit a little too high on the trucks for me. Scott's drive system sits at the right height to my eye. My opinion. If there is a second run I will probably order one depending on the road names available.
@Ryan Selvius posted:I hope another run will be in the future. I need some SP geeps and SD-7’s or -9’s. I’m just finally getting back to a position where I can once again spend money on trains. Been stuck on the sidelines for 9 or 10 years and missed out on a lot of cool stuff. Some of it is rather hard to find now.
Yea...tell me about it! I missed out on the FP-7 and the SD7's as well as the GGD congo set!
It appears I waded in on a Lionel conversation.
On the 3 Rail Traditonal Toy Trains Section.
- Crank
You can always come to OGR for comedy!
Indeed my friend. Please stop me if I ever attempt to write an honest review of a released product here.
- Crank
Not wanting to derail this thread, I posted photos of the PRR GP7 and GP 9 in this weekend's photo fun thread
@I'd rather be ice fishing posted:I am thinking the gp7 is a fantasy scheme? Can any c&o experts chime in? I think the gp9 looks good...but the 7 floored me with the dynamic brakes and low number, a google search did not help me..
The C&O Historical Society published the book Chesapeake and Ohio Diesel Locomotives some decades ago. This is the best source for C&O diesel numbering, paint schemes, details, etc. All the GP-7's the C&O ordered in the paint scheme that's on your GP-7 were numbered between 5700 and 5797. Also none had dynamic brakes. The number appears to be an error. The presence of dynamic brakes appear to be a problem with too many variations amongst too many road names for the builder to agree to.
I can comment in more detail about what I see is right and wrong about your models but I didn't order any of these or get involved in the design process so I really don't have any skin in this. I already had four Atlas GP-9's and didn't need any more.
If you want, you can drop me an email and I can go into how the models compare with what's in the C&O diesel book.
Ken
@John Sethian posted:Not wanting to derail this thread, I posted photos of the PRR GP7 and GP 9 in this weekend's photo fun thread
NICE!!. Mine are Out for Delivery🤗🤗
@kanawha posted:The C&O Historical Society published the book Chesapeake and Ohio Diesel Locomotives some decades ago. This is the best source for C&O diesel numbering, paint schemes, details, etc. All the GP-7's the C&O ordered in the paint scheme that's on your GP-7 were numbered between 5700 and 5797. Also none had dynamic brakes. The number appears to be an error. The presence of dynamic brakes appear to be a problem with too many variations amongst too many road names for the builder to agree to.
I can comment in more detail about what I see is right and wrong about your models but I didn't order any of these or get involved in the design process so I really don't have any skin in this. I already had four Atlas GP-9's and didn't need any more.
If you want, you can drop me an email and I can go into how the models compare with what's in the C&O diesel book.
Ken
Thank you for your reply, I just wanted to make sure i was not missing some obscure prototype or something, I must say no sunset bashing here as scott has stated happy to take back but I needed some c&o advice which I got. Discouraging how some always jump into these threads and say "your problem could be worse" or "if you dont like it paint it yourself". A premium product is not supposed to be inaccurate or need painting but maybe i am insane for thinking that.
@kanawha posted:The C&O Historical Society published the book Chesapeake and Ohio Diesel Locomotives some decades ago. This is the best source for C&O diesel numbering, paint schemes, details, etc. All the GP-7's the C&O ordered in the paint scheme that's on your GP-7 were numbered between 5700 and 5797. Also none had dynamic brakes. The number appears to be an error. The presence of dynamic brakes appear to be a problem with too many variations amongst too many road names for the builder to agree to.
Here's a C & O GP7 numbered 5882 in that paint scheme - minus the "C & O for progress" emblem - with dynamic breaks.
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/383324/
Here's one with the scheme, emblem, and dynamic brakes #5828
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/330360/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/336973/
Other than that, the only inaccuracy on the model IMHO is the low cab number.
Im curious on how many ordered the GP7 demonstrator.
"Scott does his best and is in a whole different realm of accuracy and customer service than anybody else in O scale. 50 some odd variations with countless era and road specific details! Cut the guy some slack."
This argument is of course ludicrous 'Hey boss I finished up today but I did so much 25 percent of it may be wrong.' Give that man a..... cigar. This forum sub section was originally created so those that enjoyed the prototype could have fun discussions concerning the accuracy of individual models as they relate to details, paint, road numbers and a host of many other aspects that create an accurate model. If this is discouraged here where does one suppose these talks take place ? Any attempt to stifle valid criticisms of related models by any manufacturer I suspect would be unwelcome here as this is the very purpose of this forum. Ironically, to difuse any other arguement, Scott does in fact appreciate and wants criticism and reviews of his models. He knows this is how he gets better and what to correct and look out for in future runs. If everyone remained silent and bowed to the creator 3rd Rail would be putting out the same efforts as they did 10 years ago. However, what you do make a good case for is that 3rd Rail do smaller and more accurate runs. An interesting and vaild point.
- Crank
@Eccentric Crank posted:Scott does in fact appreciate and wants criticism and reviews of his models. He knows this is how he gets better and what to correct and look out for in future runs.
As much as it painful to read and experience dissatisfaction due to, this statement is spot on. Valid criticism is required even though Scott and all of us who help him take errors very personally.
We are going back and checking research, looking at painting diagrams, and documenting errors. Some are factory errors and some are not but Scott always tells me regardless an error is an error.
I know that is not much solace for someone who is disappointed, but that is why 3rd Rail does have a very fair return policy.
@Eccentric Crank posted:"Scott does his best and is in a whole different realm of accuracy and customer service than anybody else in O scale. 50 some odd variations with countless era and road specific details! Cut the guy some slack."
This argument is of course ludicrous 'Hey boss I finished up today but I did so much 25 percent of it may be wrong.' Give that man a..... cigar. This forum sub section was originally created so those that enjoyed the prototype could have fun discussions concerning the accuracy of individual models as they relate to details, paint, road numbers and a host of many other aspects that create an accurate model. If this is discouraged here where does one suppose these talks take place ? Any attempt to stifle valid criticisms of related models by any manufacturer I suspect would be unwelcome here as this is the very purpose of this forum. Ironically, to difuse any other arguement, Scott does in fact appreciate and wants criticism and reviews of his models. He knows this is how he gets better and what to correct and look out for in future runs. If everyone remained silent and bowed to the creator 3rd Rail would be putting out the same efforts as they did 10 years ago. However, what you do make a good case for is that 3rd Rail do smaller and more accurate runs. An interesting and vaild point.
- Crank
Never have been against valid criticism or discussing the accuracy of things on the 3RS forum. Obviously that’s how these get better. I’ll say it again though. The criticism is best sent directly to Scott where it won’t take on a life of its own and misrepresent the overall quality of the larger production run.
The GT&W engines with the grievances were not anywhere near 25% of anything so I’m not sure where you were going with that analogy. It was one road name that had a couple of discrepancies from prototype photos that people just couldn’t seem to get enough of. That being said if you were to have come to this thread to see photos of the geeps from this production run, you woulda thought Scott had cranked out a container full of black roofed GT&W geeps. The reposting photos of number boards, roof colors, and the GT logo after we had all seen it a few times by then was not advancing the conversation at all.
@GG1 4877 posted:As much as it painful to read and experience dissatisfaction due to, this statement is spot on. Valid criticism is required even though Scott and all of us who help him take errors very personally.
We are going back and checking research, looking at painting diagrams, and documenting errors. Some are factory errors and some are not but Scott always tells me regardless an error is an error.
I know that is not much solace for someone who is disappointed, but that is why 3rd Rail does have a very fair return policy.
Thank Jonathan and Scott, for being so responsive to this situation.
I sympathize with both sides, Scott runs a complex and challenging operation. I can’t pretend I understand all that goes into such enterprise. I really appreciate this attention to customer satisfaction.
On the consumer side, these are are boutique items in a boutique hobby with very high expectations. The wait time and cost of these models is significant to most of us with limited resources.
I had a similar situation last year with another manufacturer. I totally understand the disappointment and frustration on the consumer side. It was a CP SD-40, delivered in neon red with a defective drive.
Unlike Scott and 3rd Rail, I had very poor support from the vendors. No response from the manufacturer and the retailer did not want give me store credit for the return.
I appreciate the no hassle return policy. I really hope there is a 2nd run which corrects the short comings of this run.
@GG1 4877 posted:As much as it painful to read and experience dissatisfaction due to, this statement is spot on. Valid criticism is required even though Scott and all of us who help him take errors very personally.
We are going back and checking research, looking at painting diagrams, and documenting errors. Some are factory errors and some are not but Scott always tells me regardless an error is an error.
I know that is not much solace for someone who is disappointed, but that is why 3rd Rail does have a very fair return policy.
Kudos for taking this point of view. My efforts here (and on another thread) to "defend" 3rd Rail are simply pointing out that the initial impressions of what are "wrong" with a model are not always fact. Some folks have pointed out models that have say three errors, but then in reality, there did exist a prototype where that existed, but some other minor detail was different. So does the model have one or three errors? In another thread someone stated that all N&W Tuscan red GP9s were the latter configuration with 2 48" roof fans. A quick search on the rail photo sites proves that to be patently false. Yes the number was wrong - but fixing that doesn't require making any parts, just some paint and time. Sure it would be great if were all correct from day one - but we live in a world where I have four different types of DGLE across three PRR prototype models from the same manufacture respond with "no comment".
Personally I'd much prefer having models like these that accurate dimensionally, and have a wrong cab number - than have ones that are better characterized as caricatures of the real thing. I applaud your efforts Jonathan, both in the the attempt and your willingness to learn from mistakes.
Well my GP7 and GP9's have arrived. So far I have only pulled out the GP7.
I will upload better pics later. I received the #8551 which is correct for a PRR "torpedo tube" GP7. Most of the details are stunning! But I guess we cant have it all as Sunset went "cookie cutter" on the fuel and air tank undercarrige. The PRR GP7 had the air tanks on the roof and a 3 strap equipment box where the EMD "standard" air tanks went- hence the reason for the "torpedo Tubes". It appears the fuel tank/air tanks ate die cast so i will have to see if I can grind off or grind back the air tanks and install a psc 2 strap equipment box. Other than that, the paint, roof details, cab interior, wipers look awesome!
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@prrhorseshoecurve posted:It appears the fuel tank/air tanks are die cast so i will have to see if I can grind off or grind back the air tanks and install a psc 2 strap equipment box.
Everything is brass no die-cast here.
@rplst8 posted:Here's a C & O GP7 numbered 5882 in that paint scheme - minus the "C & O for progress" emblem - with dynamic breaks.
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/383324/Here's one with the scheme, emblem, and dynamic brakes #5828
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/330360/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/336973/Other than that, the only inaccuracy on the model IMHO is the low cab number.
The picture links you posted are indeed GP7's. However, I think you missed what I tried to point out. The particular GP-7 paint scheme 3RD Rail produced is from the first order of C&O GP-7's. These were characterized by the solid yellow frame and the yellow meatball /donut heralds. this scheme was only done on 5700-5797. They were ordered for the C&O Northern Division (ex-Pere Marquette lines) so they didn't need and weren't ordered with dynamic brakes.
The engines in the picture links are from the second order of GP-7's some of which had dynamic brakes. These engines had a blue frame and the "for Progress" heralds. This paint scheme was used on GP-7's 5800-5900 as well as GP-9's 5901-6048.
There were two more original order GP-9 schemes . The third scheme dropped the stripes on the hoods and went to a solid yellow frame. The fourth scheme looked like the third scheme except the lettering font was changed from Railroad Roman to Futura, the road number moved to the long hood, and the for Progress herald placed under the cab. window.
Unfortunately the GP-9 3RD Rail modeled is numbered 6089. This puts it in the third paint scheme (6049 - 6208) - yellow frame, no hood stripes. The order was for units 6009-6208 and the C&O changed from the second to third scheme partway through the order.
What it all comes down to is without a really good reference book or pictures of the exact prototype that's being modeled its pretty easy to get something wrong. I feel for what Scott had to go through with all the different variations between railroads and paint schemes and then having to deal with the builder about it. Plenty of opportunities for something to go wrong - Ugh!
Ken
Wait....this isn't from the same group of consumers who also buy "Thomas", "Polar Express" and "Spongebob" stuff, is it? Nah, couldn't be. Heck, you guys are pickier than the N and HO crowd... 😁😁😁
Also, isn't it interesting that both this and the S scale group are currently reviewing first generation diesels. I guess it's true that "the classics never die".
Mark in Oregon
@Strummer posted:Wait....this isn't from the same group of consumers who also buy "Thomas", "Polar Express" and "Spongebob" stuff, is it? Nah, couldn't be. Heck, you guys are pickier than the N and HO crowd... 😁😁😁
Mark in Oregon
I doubt that many in the 3 Rail SCALE section of the forum are running those items you mention.
Steve
Steve, I wouldnt be so sure of the SCALE Polar Express.
My two CNJ units are due to arrive on Monday. Questions for folks who have received any of these GP7/9's (or prior Sunset/3rd Rail diesels) in 3-rail configuration...
Have any of you added Kadee or Protocraft couplers? If so, is it a fairly straight-forward installation? These are my first purchases from 3rd Rail, so I'm not familiar with the pilot design/configuration.
I have some experience adding fixed pilots, Kadees and full-length handrails to a few 3-rail locomotives...I'm just trying to figure out how much work I'm in for with these.
Truth be told, I was seriously considering ordering the 2-rail version...but I chickened out at the last minute!! It would have been my first "straight" 2-rail locomotive purchase. I've dipped my toes in the 2-rail waters recently with a few MTH 2-Rail scale (3/2) Premier locomotives, but I haven't taken the full-blown 2-rail plunge yet!
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:Steve, I wouldnt be so sure of the SCALE Polar Express.
@L & N posted:I doubt that many in the 3 Rail SCALE section of the forum are running those items you mention.
Steve
I'm sure you're right... but I just couldn't resist! 🙂
In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy my Red Caboose Geeps...and hope you all find some satisfaction with these new offerings. How is the performance, by the way?
Mark in Oregon
@CNJ #1601 posted:My two CNJ units are due to arrive on Monday. Question for folks who have received these (or prior Sunset/3rd Rail diesels) in 3-rail configuration...
Have any of you added Kadee or Protocraft couplers? If so, is it a fairly straight-forward installation? These are my first purchases from 3rd Rail, so I'm not familiar with the pilot configuration.
3 rail offerings often have all the hardware needed to convert to a Kadee coupler including the bracket, screws, and the couplers. Other than a few small screws that are occasionally fairly tight, it is an easy change from 3 rail to Kadee couplers. The ones I have done take about 15 minutes. In this run though, all mine are 2 rail.
@Strummer posted:Also, isn't it interesting that both this and the S scale group are currently reviewing first generation diesels. I guess it's true that "the classics never die".
Mark in Oregon
That's because S Scalers don't have the variety available that the 3RS and 2RS folks have.
Rusty
@GG1 4877 posted:3 rail offerings often have all the hardware needed to convert to a Kadee coupler including the bracket, screws, and the couplers. Other than a few small screws that are occasionally fairly tight, it is an easy change from 3 rail to Kadee couplers. The ones I have done take about 15 minutes. In this run though, all mine are 2 rail.
Thanks for the reply, Jonathan. Seeing your photos of the CNJ's with the highly-detailed pilots earlier in this thread makes me wish I convinced myself to order them in 2-rail! I'll have some work to do to fill in all that open space in the 3-rail pilots.
CNJ, they come with the parts to cover the space up.
@Big Jim posted:CNJ, they come with the parts to cover the space up.
Thanks for your reply, Big Jim. I misunderstood Jonathan's explanation above. I was picturing the Kadees would just get mounted at the top of the large opening in the 3-rail pilot. Thanks for the clarification!
Umm. Bruck, was that battery in the unit or did you personally add it in?
Re SP&S GP9, can anyone explain the history on the decal below the #152?
Is it just me? Or is every single one of these missing a stanchion on the step behind the conductor’s side of the cab?
@Downwinder posted:Re SP&S GP9, can anyone explain the history on the decal below the #152?
That is the EMD builder/serial number plate (one on each side, under the cab on the underframe sidesill), generally referred to as the "football" style builder's plate.
@Boilermaker1 posted:Is it just me? Or is every single one of these missing a stanchion on the step behind the conductor’s side of the cab?
Nope. That is so the top of the battery box, i.e. the cover plate, can be lifted for access to the batteries.
@Downwinder posted:Re SP&S GP9, can anyone explain the history on the decal below the #152?
@Hot Water posted:Nope. That is so the top of the battery box, i.e. the cover plate, can be lifted for access to the batteries.
The other side of the cab.
I grabbed Rich’s photo from earlier in the thread because it makes it obvious.
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@rplst8 posted:EMD logo?
No, not the "logo", but the "football" design Builder/serial number plate. One mounted on each side. Those plates have since become quite the collectors item. I have an original builder's "football" plate from the very first EMD GP30 unit that I road on its first trip, on the N&W Railway in late June of 1962. When the N&W removed this GP30s from service, a good friend of mine in the N&W Mechanical Dept. had a plate removed and sent to me, prior to the units disposal. It is mounted on a nice piece of wood over my desk.
@Hot Water posted:"... very first EMD GP30 unit that I road on its first trip,"
This is a consistent error that I see you make. If one is to insist that others be precise, be it in the ID of models or the dashes in numbers then one should be precise as well. You rode your ride on the road. < See what I mean?
Not trying to be a smart *** or cause trouble. Just figuring I'm giving you an opportunity to improve yourself.
I received my Soo GP9 version today, and it's a beautiful model, except for one rather major thing....the color. Sorry Big John, if you think I'm coming out of the woodwork in saying this, but the color's incorrect. And yes, I'm disappointed. But hopefully this constructive criticism will be of assistance if these are run again in the future. It's certainly not meant to hurt the position that some people may want to hold Sunset in. (BTW, for those who think a prospective customer should intervene in the design phase, it's hard to imagine that a customer would think it's necessary to intervene with respect to the color when the photo used for the manufacturer's advertisement in fact shows the correct color! See below.)
I've attached photos of my model. If anyone's interested, they can google Soo Line engines as much as they'd like to see what the actual engines looked like (as well as the Soo Line Historical and Technical Society), but links to three photos are attached below. It should be clear that the Soo color is nothing like the light brown color of the model. No spinning of lighting conditions, or age, or shortcomings of photo quality, or any other rationalization applies here. The color's just wrong. It's light brown, not even in the maroon family like the prototype color. These things do happen, to all manufacturers. It may happen less with Sunset, but it certainly does happen. It's to be expected that some things may get off a bit during such a complicated operation of producing these trains, but getting an entire engine color wrong, well, that's a pretty gross error, far worse than just something like a misplaced stanchion or small paint error. I just wish it hadn't happened here!
Not sure if I'm going to keep it or return it. If only it were the correct color, I'd be thrilled, but I'm afraid I'll always look at it and the first thing that'll go through my mind is that it's the wrong color. Oh, well.
Note that the first photo was used in the 3rd Rail ad:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals...6b88c6629ff94350.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent....j3OWCHGT3mu8dI0RKQbk
Clean, freshly painted one from the Minnesota Transportation Museum and used on a tourist railroad:
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@Boilermaker1 posted:Is it just me? Or is every single one of these missing a stanchion on the step behind the conductor’s side of the cab?
You’re correct,
Scott is already on the fix for it....
The GT&W engines with the grievances were not anywhere near 25% of anything so I’m not sure where you were going with that analogy.
Just from here and on the 2 rail forum there are posted prototype errors on the SP, GTs, N&Ws and I can tell you the NYCs. Not 25 percent....yet.
That being said if you were to have come to this thread to see photos of the geeps from this production run, you woulda thought Scott had cranked out a container full of black roofed GT&W geeps.
I'm not sure where you were going with that analogy, but I have come into this thread as well as the other ones and thought either Scott or one of his team missed the boat on the GT&W, N&W and the SP. Most if not all of us on this scale forum and side of the hobby realize that the comments here do not misrepresent the overall quality of the larger production run. And if someone actually thought that perhaps their name was Hans Zimmer. Not sure if anyone here will remember that oldie but goodie. I have sympathy for anyone that waited so long and paid so much only to be disappointed. It appears to me they need to point our those errors a number of times in different ways with a group of guys they feel comfortable with. 10 to one I know these guys have also sent very detailed emails to Scott on those models.
If everyone emailed the manufacturer and did not post these mistakes on the forum, what would this forum be then? Happy time with the band? Scott can take the heat, as well as Jonathan. Trust me?
- Crank
Is it just me? Or is every single one of these missing a stanchion on the step behind the conductor’s side of the cab?
It appears Scott cranked out a container full of missing stanchions. I was 75% off. But Scott will make good, and a great thing it was posted here on the forum, as we all now can quickly rest easy.
- Crank
Hi Everyone,
I really tried not to engage in the conversation that has been taking place on this thread but...
My two cents is really simple. I believe criticism does have its place and perhaps even in this thread. For me, the thing that may not sit well with many of us about the criticism is that there is no balance. Unfortunately, there are some personalities in our wonderful forum that we expect a negative or rude comment from on just about any topic they engage. Does anyone think this promotes our hobby to the newbie? This man, Scott, is offering us a wonderful product and we all know that the O Scale market is already limited, so this is a blessing. I am not saying that we should "take what we get" but I'm a Libra so balance is important. Perhaps a word about the good things about the model would be a nice counterbalance to what could be an improvement. Especially considering that Scott has put out models that had he not, we simply would not have them. I don't believe anyone that has posted criticism has been "ugly" about it but the positives in the models perhaps may have circumvented the backlash.
There were several threads posted when we found out about MTH and modelers hoping the company would not go away for good. However, if you go back through the years there are many negative comments about some of their products. In some cases, downright mean! Again, I'm not speaking of constructive criticism and in some cases even disappointment. There is a difference between those kind of comments and just being rude. Scott, is a businessman and I'm sure he can take the criticism as any good businessman should. With that being said, what if he closed up shop and left this great hobby of ours? I learned that it's not what you say but how you say it.
Scott, if you're reading this please know I appreciate what you do for the hobby and though we all have been made aware of some flaws in the models, I will enjoy my units for years to come.
Dave
@kanawha posted:The picture links you posted are indeed GP7's. However, I think you missed what I tried to point out. The particular GP-7 paint scheme 3RD Rail produced is from the first order of C&O GP-7's. These were characterized by the solid yellow frame and the yellow meatball /donut heralds. this scheme was only done on 5700-5797. They were ordered for the C&O Northern Division (ex-Pere Marquette lines) so they didn't need and weren't ordered with dynamic brakes.
The engines in the picture links are from the second order of GP-7's some of which had dynamic brakes. These engines had a blue frame and the "for Progress" heralds. This paint scheme was used on GP-7's 5800-5900 as well as GP-9's 5901-6048.
There were two more original order GP-9 schemes . The third scheme dropped the stripes on the hoods and went to a solid yellow frame. The fourth scheme looked like the third scheme except the lettering font was changed from Railroad Roman to Futura, the road number moved to the long hood, and the for Progress herald placed under the cab. window.
Unfortunately the GP-9 3RD Rail modeled is numbered 6089. This puts it in the third paint scheme (6049 - 6208) - yellow frame, no hood stripes. The order was for units 6009-6208 and the C&O changed from the second to third scheme partway through the order.
What it all comes down to is without a really good reference book or pictures of the exact prototype that's being modeled its pretty easy to get something wrong. I feel for what Scott had to go through with all the different variations between railroads and paint schemes and then having to deal with the builder about it. Plenty of opportunities for something to go wrong - Ugh!
Ken
My point is that I don’t think every paint scheme ever worn by every cab number is settled science...
Here’s a low number that looks to have only had a yellow pilot and a blue frame.
https://railpictures.net/photo/654951/
Here’s another low number unit that looks to be yellow underneath but had the frame painted blue at some point.
https://railpictures.net/photo/146348/
Here’s another low numbered unit that looks to have the later GP9 scheme with the cab number on the long hood.
https://railpictures.net/photo/670272/
Here’s a second order unit that looks to have had a yellow frame, but a blue repaint.
https://railpictures.net/photo/383324/
Here’s a second order GP7 with the scheme you describe as the fourth GP9 scheme.
https://railpictures.net/photo/12183/
@Byrdie posted:This is a consistent error that I see you make. If one is to insist that others be precise, be it in the ID of models or the dashes in numbers then one should be precise as well. You rode your ride on the road. < See what I mean?
OK,,,,,,,big deal. So I misspelled "rode" and my spellcheck didn't catch it. That still doesn't excuse posters fron DELIBERATELY typing the EMD diesel models name with that stupid dash between the model and the number series.
Not trying to be a smart *** or cause trouble. Just figuring I'm giving you an opportunity to improve yourself.
I really don't need "improvement" at my age (79), as I never could spell worth a crap anyway, and spellcheck seems to help most of the time.
Paula just said, “I think they are beautiful.”
I was simply glad to open several new engines and not have broken pieces, screws, etc in the box or crammed into the cab. What a delightful change and well worth the wait.
Thank you Scott. We are tremendously pleased and appreciate the hard work that you and your team put into this project.
Would someone please tell us which hatch we open to set the engine up AND how do we get it open and not damage the paint.
Thanks
@Rusty Traque posted:That's because S Scalers don't have the variety available that the 3RS and 2RS folks have.
Rusty
Oh yeah, I get that. I guess my point was that in O, the hot topic is about the Geep 9; in S, it's the MTH F7. Both early- ish diesels. Hence, my comment about "classics"...
Mark in Oregon
I'm surprised no one suggested any Amtrak paint schemes. I've yet to see anybody do a scale prototypical model of them in O scale, or at least 3-rail.
@GG1 4877 posted:3 rail offerings often have all the hardware needed to convert to a Kadee coupler including the bracket, screws, and the couplers. Other than a few small screws that are occasionally fairly tight, it is an easy change from 3 rail to Kadee couplers. The ones I have done take about 15 minutes. In this run though, all mine are 2 rail.
L.O.L. speaking of "tight" was I the only one that had a really difficult time pulling out the foam cradle from the cardboard box? I swear that O.E.M. box was wrapped around its inner foam cradle tighter than a frog's AR$@! Talk about a "battle royal" to get out the foam without damaging the box!
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:Umm. Bruck, was that battery in the unit or did you personally add it in?
Came with the battery.
Bruk.
For the upcoming SD40-2s (and future 3rd Rail offerings), it might be a good idea to not install a battery at the factory)
Would anyone have a pic of the Conrail GP?
Yes Mr. horseshoecurve, I wondered if anyone ripped their box in (Christmas morning-like) anticipation of the Treasure inside. I now have difinitive proof I have learned something in my adult years. Thanks push-pops!
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:L.O.L. speaking of "tight" was I the only one that had a really difficult time pulling out the foam cradle from the cardboard box? I swear that O.E.M. box was wrapped around its inner foam cradle tighter than a frog's AR$@! Talk about a "battle royal" to get out the foam without damaging the box!
The struggle was real.
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:L.O.L. speaking of "tight" was I the only one that had a really difficult time pulling out the foam cradle from the cardboard box? I swear that O.E.M. box was wrapped around its inner foam cradle tighter than a frog's AR$@! Talk about a "battle royal" to get out the foam without damaging the box!
Have you tried upside-down on a padded surface such as a couch or bed?
@Lyle A posted:N&W GP9s
WOW! Those are great looking geeps.
@rplst8 posted:Interesting road number. 😈😯😂
💀💀! Wish I had that one. Inverted geep 9? Kinda.
@GG1 4877 posted:However, the phase III variation was a no go from the start for the first run because the factory gave so much push back on the the number of variations on this particular model at the price point they were sold at.
Jonathan,
Just how sure are you that those PH3's were a no go for this run?
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Apparently my memory is not as it should be on work that was done in late 2019.
However are we really making it personal now? That's classy.
@GG1 4877 posted:Apparently my memory is not as it should be on work that was done in late 2019.
However are we really making it personal now? That's classy.
Jonathan, I think you are reading something into what he said. He asked you how sure you were, to which you provided a direct answer. How does that make it personal or merit your "That's classy" response? If anything I think you are the one that is making it personal from my 3rd party view.
Also fwiw... If you are going to take on the responsibility of a Product Manager on a product that is advertised to offer road specific details and those details are incorrect then you should expect questions like this IMHO.
I am beginning to think we’d all be better friends if these conversations were had in person, like at a train show, rather than on the internet. Being a John myself I can empathize with both the Jonathons While in most cases people do not intend for these comments to be personal attacks, they certainly come off that way at times.
Imagine having just spent an incredible amount of time helping advise on a massive production run and then getting run thru the cheese grater by a bunch of keyboard warriors the moment these things get delivered. There will always be mistakes on these and every other model, some worse than others. It does seem that was amplified by the complexity of this production which is understandable given all that was going on while it was happening and it’s size.
However, while Jonathon and Scott and everyone else involved were working their tails off to bring you all the very best... MTH was closing its doors, Atlas is still trying to make product from 5 years ago, and Lionel is too busy with fantasy paint schemes to make anything half accurate. If you aren’t happy with your 3rd rail models, the customer service remains first class. BUT If you chase off the people involved in the only worthwhile show in town then you will be left with nothing. You won’t even have a fence to sit on anymore.
I know people often intend to be helpful with their criticism but it does not always come off that way over an Internet forum.
@GG1 4877 posted:Apparently my memory is not as it should be on work that was done in late 2019.
However are we really making it personal now? That's classy.
Jonathan,
Well, I'm still the same classy guy I was when we Emailed about me buying late run E7's and PA's. No, my intention was not to make it personal, it was a literal question - I'm just truly surprised there is this much confusion on something as basic as which versions actually got produced.
I considered you to be an expert, back in 2019 when you Emailed me telling me I could not get a Ph3 NKP GP9 because only Ph2 was getting produced and also 2 days ago when you said they were a no go, but apparently here they are.
Perhaps that was blessing in disguise as I would have an additional 3 grand in NKP GP's all sitting here with missing handrail stanchions.
That is a fair statement. I will retract my comment. I will also exit this conversation as I have lost my ability to he objective at the moment. My apologies. I meant no disrepect towards anyone.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:You actually can. You can involve yourself in the design process, especially if you have a unique skill to bring to the table; such as expertise on paint tones.
I seem to recall this same paint color discussion every time a new product comes out...
The actual color tone as people perceive it, view it, and remember it is subjective. It changes over the years, looks different in different photos and yes can even look different on drift cards compared to the brand new painted prototype. It can even look different on 2 different engines painted with the same paint if the primer was applied in different conditions. There are endless factors which effect paint color.
That’s only one part of the conversation. The next is lighting. I believe you have read this before as excellently explained by Rusty Tarque.
Reflect back on everything that has happened in our world since these models were announced. Consider the size of the company and the tireless efforts by many (in o some cases through countless hours of unpaid research or contribution of information). Consider the incredible scale of what was accomplished in this production run. Scott bends over backwards to bring us the very best AND he makes it right when people are unhappy regardless of the merit of their grievance.
It really comes down to, you either like the color tones of the models you have personally purchased and are holding in your hands or you don’t. Same for all other aspects of the model. If you don’t like it, Scott goes way out of his way to make sure your are satisfied in the form of a full refund and I believe even covers the return shipping (I don’t know for absolute certain as I have never returned a model to 3rd rail).
Then someone else who thought they would never see such a uniquely detailed model and missed out on the reservation will have the lucky chance to purchase it. However, it really is a shame when people who have not purchased it or been involved in the design process whatsoever, ruin that excitement by doing something like endlessly trolling subjective paint tones.
This whole thing is supposed to be fun, exciting, and for many a brief escape from the troubles of the world. Don’t be the guy that ruins that excitement for potential new customers or those of us who are longtime loyal customers of GGD/3rd rail. I’ve got a lot of one off things I would love to see Scott make someday as many of his customers do. Please don’t get in the way of that. If it’s not good enough for you, then build it and paint it yourself.
I do not subscribe to this apologist mentality. Nobody is personally attacking Scott or the folks that helped research this project at a personal level. As a company building a product for customers that pay money to get a product that arrives as it was marketed though....That is fair game IMHO.
As a "longtime loyal customer of GGD/3rd Rail" myself this is my opinion - If you advertise a product as having road specific details, but cancel versions, make mistakes on common details, mix details between phases, paint black where it shouldn't be, and have customers subjectively questioning the color tones I think you should be expected to answer those questions. I understand that there are reasons, mistakes, and oversights that happen. Scott has always stood behind his products and I expect he will this time as well, but the idea that we should all just keep our mouths shut and be thankful that products are still being made is silly.
At one time I wanted 8 GP7s and GP9s. Due to production changes/cancellations and other issues that I won't go into here I ended up with just 2 GP7s in Erie. They are on their way to me now and without even seeing them yet it seems like they are going to be missing a handrail stanchion at the very least. Some people suggest that this is being too picky. I disagree. If I buy Lionel or American Models I know I am getting a generic model. If I buy an Athearn/Rapido/Scale Trains HO model I know I am getting Road and Road-number specific details. I remember when Shane was at Athearn they had an issue where a molded in door on the hood of a Genesis GP model was off by 6" inches and the HO community went nuts. Athearn gave refunds and made new hoods to satisfy customers if memory serves me. I have no doubt Scott will take care of his customers, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to point out issues real or perceived just because it may affect people's ability to buy more toys in the future.
The real danger of running people off isn't what people think or say about a product as much as not delivering what was marketed IMHO. Getting details correct is under your control much more so than how people will receive your product. if you get things correct people will complain less, trust more, and buy more. The inverse is also true though.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:However, while Jonathon and Scott and everyone else involved were working their tails off to bring you all the very best... MTH was closing its doors, Atlas is still trying to make product from 5 years ago, and Lionel is too busy with fantasy paint schemes to make anything half accurate. If you aren’t happy with your 3rd rail models, the customer service remains first class. BUT If you chase off the people involved in the only worthwhile show in town then you will be left with nothing. You won’t even have a fence to sit on anymore.
I know people often intend to be helpful with their criticism but it does not always come off that way over an Internet forum.
I could not care less what is going on at Lionel, MTH or Atlas as I stopped buying their stuff almost 5 years ago when I switched to 2R. Where did my $$$ go - yeah to Sunset. So I have no clue as to what you mean with " I won't have a fence to sit on anymore " Also, please see what I posted earlier:
I'll leave you with this: I still have quite a bit on preorder with Scott and I truly appreciate what you guys do for us in O scale - literally everything I have in B&O is from Sunset.
While I am not trying to chase anyone off, I'm also not afraid to call a spade a spade on these issues. All I wanted was to confirm the PH3's actually got tooled up from the guy who did the design matrix for the project. Even with a missing handrail stanchion I was looking to see if the NKP's versions I like could get a shot in a 2nd run.
@jonnyspeed posted:I do not subscribe to this apologist mentality. Nobody is personally attacking Scott or the folks that helped research this project at a personal level. As a company building a product for customers that pay money to get a product that arrives as it was marketed though....That is fair game IMHO.
As a "longtime loyal customer of GGD/3rd Rail" myself this is my opinion - If you advertise a product as having road specific details, but cancel versions, make mistakes on common details, mix details between phases, paint black where it shouldn't be, and have customers subjectively questioning the color tones I think you should be expected to answer those questions. I understand that there are reasons, mistakes, and oversights that happen. Scott has always stood behind his products and I expect he will this time as well, but the idea that we should all just keep our mouths shut and be thankful that products are still being made is silly.
At one time I wanted 8 GP7s and GP9s. Due to production changes/cancellations and other issues that I won't go into here I ended up with just 2 GP7s in Erie. They are on their way to me now and without even seeing them yet it seems like they are going to be missing a handrail stanchion at the very least. Some people suggest that this is being too picky. I disagree. If I buy Lionel or American Models I know I am getting a generic model. If I buy an Athearn/Rapido/Scale Trains HO model I know I am getting Road and Road-number specific details. I remember when Shane was at Athearn they had an issue where a molded in door on the hood of a Genesis GP model was off by 6" inches and the HO community went nuts. Athearn gave refunds and made new hoods to satisfy customers if memory serves me. I have no doubt Scott will take care of his customers, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to point out issues real or perceived just because it may affect your ability to buy more toys in the future.
I have never been against criticism and I am not saying that those reasons make it ok for errors. I’m just saying watch how you deliver it and consider that even if it is well intended on your end, others may not take it that way especially on the internet. If those others are the folks at/with 3rd rail, eventually they will get sick of it when the effort is no longer worth the headache and we won’t have the option to order anything at all or at a minimum, there will be less of a chance of such unique offerings in the future.
In the meantime, if you order something that you are not happy with, it is fully refunded and taken care of and you are back to where you started before ordering it.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:I have never been against criticism and I am not saying that those reasons make it ok for errors. I’m just saying watch how you deliver it and consider that even if it is well intended on your end, others may not take it that way especially on the internet. If those others are the folks at/with 3rd rail, eventually they will get sick of it when the effort is no longer worth the headache and we won’t have the option to order anything at all or at a minimum, there will be less of a chance of such unique offerings in the future.
In the meantime, if you order something that you are not happy with, it is fully refunded and taken care of and you are back to where you started before ordering it.
I understand your point of view, I just respectfully disagree. What will cause 3rd Rail or any company to exit their market is economic in nature. I think you are implying way too much emotion involved in the decision making process here. I don't think you give Scott enough credit. He isn't going to run off because his feelings are hurt. Not selling models is what will drive any mfg. out of their market however. Not delivering on expectations and eroding trust from your customer base is the real risk in a market like this. Customers are asked to commit to pre-orders sight-unseen years in advance with only the trust that the company will get it right to go on. If things don't arrive as expected or advertised, this is what happens. It's not personal, it business...
I have no doubt that Scott will offer refunds and take care of customers, but those people wanted and waited for trains - not refunds. How many will be reconsidering their pre-orders now? I have no idea, but the root issue here is that mistakes were made... not that people are publicly discussing them and scaring would-be buyers off.
Just my opinion...
@jonnyspeed posted:I understand your point of view, I just respectfully disagree. What will cause 3rd Rail or any company to exit their market is economic in nature. I think you are implying way too much emotion involved in the decision making process here. I don't think you give Scott enough credit. He isn't going to run off because his feelings are hurt. Not selling models is what will drive any mfg. out of their market however. Not delivering on expectations and eroding trust from your customer base is the real risk in a market like this. Customers are asked to commit to pre-orders sight-unseen years in advance with only the trust that the company will get it right to go on. If things don't arrive as expected or advertised, this is what happens. It's not personal, it business...
I have no doubt that Scott will offer refunds and take care of customers, but those people wanted and waited for trains - not refunds. How many will be reconsidering their pre-orders now? I have no idea, but the root issue here is that mistakes were made... not that people are publicly discussing them and scaring would-be buyers off.
Just my opinion...
I understand your position and also respectfully disagree. Emotion is very much a part of it for those who make the models just as much as it is for those who pre order them.
If it was purely a financial/numbers thing, those who got their refund would be satisfied with having not lost out once they sent their model back and received their refund. Scott does not require a deposit, so customers money is never tied up for a large amount of time in the case of a refund. However, as you’ve said, customers have waited a long time for these since preordering (without any financial commitment). So what have they then lost out on? The excitement and anticipation (emotion) of their trains showing up as they have imagined them to look.
It’s unreasonable to think that Scott and others so heavily involved in designing and delivering these do not also have the same excitement and anticipation (emotion) in delivering what they have set out to.
My point is that even if everyone is financially taken care of, it is in-fact possible that a manufacturer would exit the market place if the headaches from production errors got to be to be too great. Just as it is possible that prospective or past customers would avoid future ordering even if they never lost out financially from a messed up order.
Well I choose to go high !!! 🙂🙃😜🤗 Here are two beauties I received yesterday and got to unbox today. I’m VERY PLEASED with these models !!!!!!!!!!!
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Hi Folks,
I haven't had a chance to read all the posts above because there are so many emails coming, and it's the weekend. Many of the emails are praises, and few are wanting to return their models.
Yes, we make mistakes. Yes, we accept models back for refund. Just email me you desire.
I'll tell you a little story of how I usually check all these paint schemes and roads.
I go to China, and after a few days of getting my bearings, they have a desk for me at their office in the small assembly factory. They present me painted samples of shells, which I hold, and look at them, and google pictures of prototypes, and review our data for the road name. I use my years of experience of seeing good and bad color matches, and I instruct the factory make changes and corrections on the spot. We have a color library that we refer to when there is a question of accuracy. Some times it take 4 trips to the painter (downstairs) to get the color spot on. I usually am there through the most critical parts of production to catch not only their errors, but ours.
Now, after being stuck here, I get digital photos of color matching with samples chips. I get engine by engine views of each side, front and back and sometimes the tops of the finished models. It's too late to correct color variations as they tell me, "Everything is already painted". It's too late to correct detailing errors, "Everything is already assembled". When I see pictures of these models they are basically finished.
Occasionally, I spot a glaring error from our design and they will go back and fix them. But now, being stuck at home in the US, it's not possible to do any of that "in person review".
So I offer you my heartfelt apology, "I AM PERSONALLY SORRY FOR THE ERRORS AND MISTAKES IN THESE MODELS". It was the best we could do with the situation at hand. For those of you that cannot accept what you have received, email me and we will discuss returns, repairs or exchanges per our Warranty Policy. There is no point to jousting with each other about how much you know or how much you should accept. If you are disappointed and want to return your model (s), do so.
In the future, we will focus harder on each road variation of a project and post more information for customers to review and discuss with us. My goal is and always has been to please you, our customer. Without you, there is no business.
First class all the way Mr. Scott Mann. Your a rare breed in this hobby, in more ways than one.
Thank you Scott.
You are a stand up guy, and a credit to the hobby.
I have purchased products from just about everyone the last few years and you are consistently at the top of the list in terms of product, service, and quality.
My GPs will be waiting for me when I return home next week and it is just like Christmas for me. I know they will be great additions to my collection.
Jerry
Thank you Scott for an explanation. Your idea of sharing more information before the models are delivered is spot on IMO.
I will remain a loyal customer because you always make things right.
Leon
I’m sure not going to stop ordering and buying your models. No way! You are the miracle worker! I think we are blessed you are here with us Scott. Keep up the great work.
Thanks Scott for doing these models. My CGW is a beautiful model and runs perfect. Maybe you could post any returns as stock on hand. There are plenty of us out here that don't mind color variations. Looking at color books of roads, there are many differences due to many factors. Again, thanks so much. I am headed for the weathering powder booth soon!
@SANTIAGOP23 posted:Hate to say it, but I smell trouble
If there’s a problem, just email Scott. Don’t spoil my fun/pleasure !!!!
Your welcome... Just doing what I would expect others to do for me.
@BobbyD posted:Have you tried upside-down on a padded surface such as a couch or bed?
Yes! Even opened up the other flap and tried to push! It wasn't easy without a hydraulic ram NOT to rip the box!
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:Yes! Even opened up the other flap and tried to push! It wasn't easy without a hydraulic ram NOT to rip the box!
WOW! Yep, some are really a tight fit. I feel sorry for the factory folks having to package these products without ripping the boxes.
Maybe they assembled the boxes around the inner one. That might account for the tightness.
Has anyone posted a video yet? 
@0-Gauge CJ posted:Has anyone posted a video yet?
All this hemming and hawwing over paint ,grab irons, fans and getting it out of the box.
No one knows if they even run ....
@0-Gauge CJ posted:Has anyone posted a video yet?
Just my opinion but, I would much rather see lots of good quality close-up photos instead of videos. With videos, the model moves past a hand-held camera so fast, the details get lost.
