3rd Rail Presents the SF 2900 Class 4-8-4

Hi Scott,

Will this model be on display at the upcoming TCA York, Pa show? First ever Santa Fe 4-8-4 model with roller bearing side rods!

Steve

I'm not a Santa Fe modeler, but that model is just un-real!!!!! Would there be any chance of installing larger engine truck wheels?

you mean pilot truck wheels. when gary was with 3 rail you could call and request he change the pilot wheels before shipping and it was done, now with a dead phone operator you have to leave a message and you do not know what you will get. robot progress I guess.

In 3 Rail we have to reduce the size of the pilot truck wheels to clear the cylinders on curves. The flanges are just to big in 3 Rail. But if you want, we can order you larger pilot truck wheels for display purposes. The 2 Rail models have scale size pilot truck wheels. You can't have scale everything and run on tight curves. Somethings gotta give.

I believe I answered the question about calling and leaving messages on a previous post. We just don't have the money to hire some one to answer the phone all day. We ask our customers to leave a message or email us so we can get back to them when we are at our desks. We did hire 2 new people last week to handle the customer service calls that increase during this period of time. Christopher Jackson is coordinating all service functions and now we have 3 men working on models with various schedules. We focus on warranty repairs first, non-warranty second, and parts for old models 3rd. But we do try to handle everyone's requests the best we can. We still get calls asking for parts for models that are 15 - 25 years old. But usually there is not much left but some screws and springs after that length of time.

Gary is sorely missed, but he decided not to follow us up to San Ramon. It is over 40 miles from his house.

Scott

"We ask our customers to leave a message or email"

I recently emailed Scott with a question about one of my 3rd Rail engines. A few hours later, Scott emailed me from China saying he would refer my question to his tech in CA. The tech got back to me within 24 hrs. I think that's pretty good customer service.

Gary

Are you offering road number 2926? The one being restored in ABQ, NM.

quote:

you mean pilot truck wheels

NO, ironlake2, I DO NOT mean pilot truck wheels!!!! The correct technical term is ENGINE TRUCK!

But I do understand why they have to be smaller on 3-Rail models, due to the darned big flanges. Too bad a happy medium can't be reached on those flange sizes, though.

quote:

But I do understand why they have to be smaller on 3-Rail models, due to the darned big flanges. Too bad a happy medium can't be reached on those flange sizes, though.

Hot Water,
I was discussing this with a mutual friend this AM (he went to the Illinois Railway Museum with us last March).

Our mutual opinion is that Sunset's 3 rail steam locomotives are generally not run on tubular track and that these locomotives could possibly be made with a smaller flange than that currently being used - essentially a compromise between 2 rail and current 3 rail flange depth. To my knowledge there are no NMRA standards governing 3 rail. Correct me if I am wrong.

Since Joe and I are both 2 railers I need guidance from you 3RS guys as to whether to even consider addressing this with Scott. Let me know,please.

Bob,

You and Joe are absolutely correct! Although NMRA has no "standard", or even guidance for that mater, for 3-Rail wheel tread/flange specifications, many of us 3RS modelers have felt for a long time that SOMETHING needs to be done about the huge "pizza cutter" flanges. I know that Dave Hikel has been "looking into" a wheel/flange profile that will work for 3-Rail, Hi-Rail, and 3RS modelers.

You are also correct in that NONE of Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot products are designed to operate on 027/031 track systems, so why bother with the early 1900s "pizza cutter" wheel/flange profile? Our Independent Hi-Railers, Mid-West Division modular layout is all gargraves/Ross track and I personally have had no problems using many of my cabooses equipped with 2-Rail wheels/trucks.

Just my opinion, but I think the timing is right for a long hard look at flange size for the 3RS market, especially since MTH has been offering more and more products for the 2-Rail & 3RS modelers.

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Why not start a new thread to invite comments/opinions??? (I'm not an expert here, so I defer to others for this one!)

Probably a good idea, KD. However, the last time we had a separate thread on this subject, which I started, we got a bunch of the 2-Rail guys complaining that, "Why didn't we just model in O Scale 2-Rail?". THAT seems to come up a lot.

quote:

Too bad a happy medium can't be reached on those flange sizes, though.



these locomotives could possibly be made with a smaller flange than that currently being used - essentially a compromise between 2 rail and current 3 rail flange depth

Be careful what you wish for guys. The 'typical' 3-rail flange measures 0.095" on Weaver, MTH and 3rd Rail models. The flangeway depth at the frog of Ross switches also happens to be 0.095" which allows smooth operation even though the flangeways are much wider than scale.

The Sunset High Iron K4s was delivered with flanges that measured 0.065" on all locomotive and tender wheels. I measured them when I noticed the locomotive bumping through the switches in my engine terminal with each truck on loco and tender dipping past each frog. At speed the wheels didn't have time to dip but crawling through the engine terminal looked terrible. I returned the locomotive.

Scott - I anxiously await delivery. Aside from the engine truck wheel question, I thought red class lamps were a thing of the past. Wouldn't white or green have been more appropriate? If Gary Schrader helped you on this project, did he comment on that?

Nit picking aside, the engine is superb. Thanks for taking care to produce such a wonderful model.

quote:

Just my opinion, but I think the timing is right for a long hard look at flange size for the 3RS market, especially since MTH has been offering more and more products for the 2-Rail & 3RS modelers.

To see if this is feasible, perhaps 3rd Rail could include a post card for those that actually purchase 3rd Rail products with a survey. Posing the question at York or similar 3 rail oriented event tends to skew the outcome of such a survey. It would be very interesting to see how many run on tubular track. After all Lionel even offered models that only ran on T-Rail track and at the end of the original Lionel they moved into Super O. People that buy these engines are at least Hi-Railers.

I would need the 2900 class in hand to make the comparison, but it looks like 3rd Rail used smaller engine trucks on the 2900 class than it did on their Santa Fe 3751 class Northern of a few years back. Are the engine truck wheels that small so that the engine will negotiate 054 instead of 072?

Looking at some of the coming offerings from 3rd Rail, like the E7, I have thought perhaps 3rd Rail could take the lead, with MTH, Atlas, and Weaver close behind to offer the 3rd Rail engines ready to run as a 3RS engine out of the box, couplers and all. The buyers that should be making the modifications are the Lobster claw, swing pilot guys. I'm sure they could be accommodated in the same way we have to buy Kadee's etc. I don't think you would be isolating yourself in the market, but creating a market.

I feel those buying very near scale equipment that runs on 3 rail track are doing so because of the radius limitations of 2 rail.

Scott - I will be emailing you to include the scale 2 rail wheels for mine. I'll be glad to compensate you.
There is a lot of air between the cylinders and the engine truck.



To all looking at this post and buying this engine. How many of you are using tubular track? How many of you need the engine to operate on 0-54 track?

I know this is a done deal, but there is the future.

quote:

In 3 Rail we have to reduce the size of the pilot truck wheels to clear the cylinders on curves.

What would be the min radius with the larger scale wheels?

quote:

Be careful what you wish for guys. The 'typical' 3-rail flange measures 0.095" on Weaver, MTH and 3rd Rail models. The flangeway depth at the frog of Ross switches also happens to be 0.095" which allows smooth operation even though the flangeways are much wider than scale.

The Sunset High Iron K4s was delivered with flanges that measured 0.065" on all locomotive and tender wheels. I measured them when I noticed the locomotive bumping through the switches in my engine terminal with each truck on loco and tender dipping past each frog. At speed the wheels didn't have time to dip but crawling through the engine terminal looked terrible. I returned the locomotive.

Perhaps there is something in between 0.095 and 0.065 and I think that the 72 inch diameter has been a milestone for so long that one couldn't go past there and keep the vast majority of 3 rail buyers. I don't know how many buyers you gain when you go down to 0-54, but perhaps it can be enough to seriously affect profitability.

Trevize - Do you have a picture handy of one of your Santa Fe 3751 class Northerns?

You should be able to see the difference in the wheel size that was used on the engine truck. Mine looks larger than the 2900 class.


Again, Scott has made a fantastic engine. Looking at the drivers, trailing trucks, and tender trucks, they look very special!

there are several other great photos of the engine on the website. Beautiful engine! Note that 3rd Rail says that only 25 of each road number will be produced, but they don't say how many road numbers will be produced. Seems like 3rd Rail usually makes up to 6 numbers, but Scott has said they got a company that is willing to make less total models than before.

Scott;

I may have missed it somewhere, but will the 2 rail version have DCC/QSI?
Thanks, Allan

The UP does run on the ATSF/SNSF over Cajon Pass. So it is possible to have a layout with UP and AF power!

The engine looks drop dead great!

Anyway, if engine truck = pilot, then what does call the trailling truck? And are these univeral terms, or used just on UP?

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Anyway, if engine truck = pilot, then what does call the trailling truck? And are these univeral terms, or used just on UP?

The name "Engine Truck" is a universal term, or sometimes call a "Lead Truck". The term "pilot truck" is only a hobbyist term. How did the the UP get into this anyway.

The Trailing Truck is called,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Trailing Truck!