Anybody running with battery power? UPDATED ...AGAIN

I thought about it but still haven't yet decided any power supply. But with battery tech going forward sure seems a good idea especially if Atlas or MTH could come up with a battery that fits into a tender or the diesel fuel tank of engines. I can see it easier now that battery packs like home depot uses for manyof their tools all using the same battery. If battery  RC airplanes work then why not trains. Don't have to worry about wiring the layout and maybe just backing into a siding and positioning the engine over a P/U to charge.  

I had just bought a 6 battery charger for HD lith batteries that trickle charges and won't cook them. I can see something like this on a diesel fueling siding placcing any number of engines over it and charge. Refueling just like the protos. NO wiring the layout YES.wE CAN DREAM.

 There was a fairly long running discussion here

 

http://oscalemag.com/wordpress...ail-society-forum19/

Thanks for the link! I had not seen that yet.

Ben

Ben, take a look at the AirWire 900 RC battery system for G and O scale garden railroads.

AirWire claims several hours of runtime from lithium batteries @ 3 amps!

The wireless throttle is awesome. No track wiring or electrical block systems.

The receivers are small enough for O scale. Take a look at the CVPUSA website.

See: cvpusa.com

This is the real deal.

Bill

Thanks for the reply Bill.....i have their newest throttle sitting on my desk as we speak........yes it is very nice! I will be using it along with their new mini airwire convrtr.

Ben

Ed Reutling was tinkering around with battery power and RC boat controls. The CVP Airwire system looks promising, but the conversion cost per locomotive can get up there since you'd need to add the batteries and sound decoder. Still something to consider, expecially if looking at running outdoors.

I looked at it for a bit, but I'm so entrenched in 3-rail that I had to put it on the back burner for now.

 

In the OST posts I think the late Joe G. mentioned that in RC planes, the guys using LiPo batteries were having issues because they were constantly "fast charging" them and that if charged at a slower rate they were fine.  Still, read all that was posted there to be sure.

 

Even in 3-rail it would be nice to have, if slow engine speed can be achieved.  To me slow charging would be adding realism to the scene...nothing like having to refuel your locomotive before you run out of steam!

Here is a very good thread from earlier this year, IMO.  No wire to tracks  Two pages, a discussion of Lithium Ion and Lithium Polymer batteries, advantages and potential hazards.  Click on the underlined phrase to link.  Mike

I see the battery pack is quite expensive at nearly $90 but wondering if one can go to a battery + store and have one made up far cheaper and in a design needed to fit ones engine.

I am going to be using the following battery...at $13 its cheap. its the biggest mAh i could find that would still fit inside. The charge cycle on these are important so cost comes from a good li po charger/balancer.          http://www3.towerhobbies.com/c...amp;I=LXCFZK&P=6

Ben

the flying guys had issues with exploding  batteries largely because to fly the motors spin nearly top end and draw down current quickly, requiring hot fast charges to get back in the air. That's a tricky life cycle for LiPo's. I'm sure model railroading puts less strain on the battery life cycle, unless you plan to replicate an exploding boxcar

 

LiPo batteries require attention but have a super power/weight/ size ratio.

I was able to do a quick test tonight to check and make sure everything worked like it should. No problems so far, ran nice and smooth and worked without a hitch. I still have to add the sound and position all the items so the shell will fit. Hopefully within the next few weeks it will be in its final configuration.   

Ben

Hmmm. interesting...and how lithium batteries' unquenchability translates to the other

thread running about battery automobiles?

HAve we heard any Home depot lithium battery packs buring the house down or is it just these hugh use of lithium for jet airplanes needing massive power the problem. The bigger the power needs the bigger the problem??? If the house burns down I got insurance just as long as I am not sleeping at the time.

I like the battery use and will give it a greater look at when I get that far along.

Ben, them batteries look small for what work they need to do. I was thinking that the size of a 12 volt drill size would be the size needed.

Small but powerful they are....not sure of the run time between charges but it will be on a small layout pulling a few cars at a time so im thinking(hoping) the pack should be plenty.
  Yes i know they can be dangerous but so can electricity and many other things if not used properly.
  Im not saying this method of power its the best thing going but it is for sure worth at least some experimenting.

Ben

Ben,

 

Looks like a very simple installation

 

I see 5 components:

 

Motor

Battery

2 circuit boards

Throttle

 

Is the motor original?  Adding sound will add another circuit board, correct?

 

So far, what's the cost of a single install (not counting the throttle)?

Yes the motor is original to the P&D hobby repower kit for the red caboose GP9.
  The sound will add another board but i should still have plenty of room, decoders are getting tiny these days! The ones im using are some extras i had around so that is the reasoning for the ones im running.
   The convertr decoder will run $99+battery you use(mine was $13)+plus charger(all different price ranges, i already owned one  for rc helicopters)+dcc decoders you use(sound/no sound). 
   I will post some pictures down the road after i get everything in and hooked up.

Ben

What would be cool is to have a "charging station" that would look like a fuel or water tower/column, so an engine could pull up and "get a drink" just like the real thing.

I finally got around to installing the battery and wiring for a test fit/run and so far so good......





Battery is attached to the top of the body shell and has plenty of room.





Wired both the decoder and sound decoder with micro plugs so either one can be disconnected if need be.



LEDs wired ready to be installed after shell painting.
  I was able to do a few test runs with lights and sound and everthing checked out good. This has been an interesting project so far for me and im looking forward to completing it and seeing how well she pulls some freight.

Ben

I am so impressed with the  use of battery power but looking at your install, don't batteries get hot enough to melt the plastic shell being set against it. Please keep us posted on your run times.

If the battery get as hot as to melt the plastic then i for sure have an issue! In r/c applications they will get warm depending on how hard they are ran. For this set up and as long as they are not over discharged and are charged properly i dont think it will be a problem.

Ben

Good job Ben

 

I'm still looking (there's posts of mine and Ed Reutling's on another topic somewhere on this forum) so keep us up to date.  Can you post a video of your engine running?

I'm still researching and testing before committing to what is out there today.  Most of the R/C lipo batteries have acceptable discharge rates way higher than any O Scale locomotive could generate other than a short.

 

A 20C 1300mAh battery can discharge up to 26 amps for short periods.  A 50C battery up to 65 amps for short periods.  All of them are safely rechargeable in an hour or more; 1C.

 

It's a tradeoff between the size and the capacity.  A 5000mAh 4 or 5S battery can fit in most larger steam tenders but getting them in diesels can be tricky.  And a 5 Amp hour battery will run at a 1 amp constant drain for 5 hours.

 

Recharging can be a bit tricky too for multiple S batteries as they need balance chargers and finding a way to connect the balancer in addition to the charge current adds complexity if you don't want to remove the battery for charging.

Joe G., before he died, OST magazine, Was experimenting with RC O scale. Look at OST's web site and you will find it.

 

Dick

Heres a small clip if it will work..........

Now, to find a way to charge it by just running over a contact  to sit and charge.

Very nice Ben

 

I know the Red caboose Geep is scale width, so this setup should work in an Atlas or Lionel Geep.

 

My smallest locos are a MTH NW2 and an USRA 0-6-0.  If it would fit inside them then it should fit in everything else I have.

 

I'm still 3-rail, but if I could inexpensively convert them as you've done my next step would be to pull up the middle rail, keeping my 054 and 072 curves (cheapest way for me to go 2-rail).

For the life of me, I just can not understand why  you boys have to  think of the biggest, hardest, most expensive way to do something.

 

You can click on reutling and see all that I have said before and  it is so easy.  I stuffed  the stuff in side of  2  44 ton  loco hoods, can run for hours [longer than my attention span] and recharge   in  35-45 minutes.

 

A work of  caution---------------- FCC  frowns very seriously  if  you were to use the  aviation frequencies  for  surface operation of  our toys.

 

There are different  frequencies  assigned.

 

Also,  there are Li Ioin batteries and LiPo batteries.  Very different and  require  different chargers.  That is why  stuff burns up, using  incorrect chargers.

 

Watch my Youtubes to see how  it runs.

 

Ed Reutling

Oh, I forgot-------------  I am wondering how many of the  naysayers have actually done  self contained R/C  in a locomotive?  I tend to believe that  the proof in in the puddin', and not in the recipe.

 

Ed R

You should be able to convert most modern engines to battery power, as they use DC can motors and that is what a battery puts out. Lionel, MTH, Williams, Atlas and others should all use DC can motors as they are easier to mass produce as well.

You would need a control system, as others have mentioned should be easy to find if you search enough.

A slow charge is best for most batteries, especially your car battery.

 

Lee Fritz

Ed's correct about the FCC and using the proper band for 'ground equipment'. I have an older 27Mhz RC rig that still works great, but is an old band and cannot be used today due to the frequency width, compared to current units. Today's RC rigs use a very narrow width, besides they're pretty cheap to buy. I believe 72Mhz is the air band and 75 Mhz is the ground band (but I may have that backwards). Cheap RC toys use the 27Mhz band.

 

If you use the wrong band (air) and cause a nearby aircraft model to crash and possibly hurt someone, you can be liable. Though today's units do 'link' to each other, interference still can happen.

I use 2S and 3S LiPo batteries in my RC trucks - they put out a TON of power to the point where it's like they are being shot out of a cannon across the back yard.  They are scary-fast.   I would NEVER put a LiPo of decent size in anything in my house, let alone charge them indoors.  Google "LiPo Fire" and witness the damage they are capable of.  If you puncture one.... run.   I only charge outside and I store them in specialize containers in the garage far away from anything else potentially flammable.  

 

I also have a few LiFe batteries, and these I might trust indoors.  They put out slightly less power than a comparable LiPo but in something like a model train application, it wouldn't matter.  They are much more stable and not prone to exploding, and priced comparatively, but the selection is more limited.  I can charge both with my programmable balance charger.

 

Both types of batteries are capable of powering my RC's for around and hour or so at 25C-35C discharge for a 5000mah pack.  That's at crazy speed they whole time.  I would think you could get reasonable run time out of a slow draw on a 1000 mah pack for an O gauge train.   As with everything, it just depends.  

 

As for control, I continue believe that WiFi is the answer and would open up a world of operating possibilities.   Adapters are tiny and cheap, and you could go with a proprietary addressing/frequency model, or you could just use standard protocols.  Imagine being able to log into your train with a Java application from any computer or tablet device, anywhere.   MTH seems to be moving in this direction but you are communicating with the TIU; not the individual trains.   This has been discussed here before as well.  

 

I'm not a nay-sayer;  I would love to see true modern technology come to this hobby.  My kids have $20 Chinese toys that are more sophisticated than my trains.   Slow steps I suppose...

Andy Romano has been running with Battery power for quite a few years. He has articles in "O Scale Trains" on the subject and has posted here on the Forum: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...-on-the-ironbound-rr If you want all his posts, do a search for Ironbound which is his ID here. Simon

The stumper wrote:   I would NEVER put a LiPo of decent size in anything in my house, let alone charge them indoors.  Google "LiPo Fire" and witness the damage they are capable of.  If you puncture one.... run.   I only charge outside and I store them in specialize containers in the garage far away from anything else potentially flammable. 

 

I am lazy, and therefore have not googled as he suggested.  I am wondering  if the  LiPo fires were caused by mis-use of the   equipment?

 

As I have mentioned elsewhere,  I use LiPo batteries, and  am  perfectly pleased with the operation.  Have had no problems if used according to the 'rules'.

 

Regarding Andy Romano's  R/C, he has a box car  trailing around the loco  with  either all or  some of the electronics in it.  I would much prefer to see a light loco being turned or  going into the  shop w/o a car behind it.  That of course, is personal preference.

 

Ed Reutling

The December 2013 issue of Garden Railways Magazine contains reviews of two R/C products by G-Scale Graphics in Fort Collins, CO.  One is for a simple pushbutton command and the other, a power-and-charging-interface circuit for battery R/C installations.  They are geared towards large scale trains but might work in O scale.

David Vergun cobbled together some RC trains a few years back, but he too had a trailing battery car.  I believe he ran his O scale RC trains outdoors.

I have seen battery powered equipment at the Amherst train show in Springfield, MA. But could not get to anyone to answer questions.  I know that some modelers are using it and in two rail they use the rail circuits for signal aspects.  Just like the prototype!  A special issue of RMC about a year ago, focused on 19th century modeling and included a photo of an AHM Reno 4-4-0 with a battery and on/off switch in the tender. So the stuff and the technology is out there. I sometimes wonder about the system as I struggle to learn DCC.  Comments?? Sdy Loco