auto block system relays, rectifier, etc

Need more information. What kind of signals? What exactly do tou want the signals to do?

Hi Trainman,

I would like to run two trains on the same loop automatically stopping and starting the trains.  I have a basic understanding per this article http://www.toytrainrevue.com/ 

However, it does not give specific specs for these electrical components. Other sources of information have outdated part numbers. I have a basic understanding of relays but not a clue as to rectifiers and capacitors.

Thanks!

Forum member Dale H has a lot of stuff like this on his blog here J&C Studios - Dale H

There is a lot of information on block controls, relays, and lots of other items for conventional running. Worth a look. Maybe he will see this and offer further comments?

Thank you for the information rtr

It's refreshing to hear that someone wishes to do some simple track and signal controls using the old-fashioned methods. I have been designing, installing, and enjoying relay controls for 50 years. If there's anything you wish to discuss you may email me privately and I will give you as much, or as little, help that you ask for.  Unfortunately, I have been spoken to harshly here several times by "experts" who like to dispute most anything. They make the interchange of ideas tedious. Therefore, my policy is to have private conversations with folks who want to learn how to do these things the right way.  Dale is no longer an old-school electricity advocate here on this public forum for much the same reasons, but he is always willing to help privately, I've heard.

 

There is hardly a feature or action that you can't get working with relays and the associated hardware.  Recently, I revived an old circuit that I designed while daydreaming at my real job several decades ago.  It's a crossing signal circuit for two-directional travel, that can simulate the real thing, regardless of speed or length of trains. It uses 9 relays (!). There are very fine electronic circuit boards that will accomplish the same things, of course. You will hear from the folks who like them better than relays. It's a matter of ease and taste.

 

Since relays, capacitors and diodes are so inexpensive, there's no reason not learn this technique, if for no other reason than just to say that you know how to do it.

 

info (at) SIBTA (dot) com

 

 

You are welcome. Although I am all command control (DCS & Legacy) I do enjoy the conventional block control systems just as much. You can do simple things or very complicated things. While I also like the electronics, it is all very interesting to me which ever control method is used.

 

After I posted the link to Dale H's blog, I got to thinking I have not seen him posting here lately and got to wondering if he was ok. From what you say I take it he is still well. I am really sorry to hear he is not posting as much, I always enjoyed his posts. I almost suggested to the OP to email him, but I didn't want to get him any unsolicited requests. Anyway good to hear he is ok.

 

I also enjoy your posts on conventional relay control, I am sure some here still appreciate the information on the old school methods of controlling things. I would like to someday set up a small table of track to be able to fiddle with conventional relay and block controls. Think it would be fun. I have done some relay related stuff many years ago and always have liked it. Been a long time and I have to really think about these things now, seemed much simpler back in the '80s when I was a lot younger.

Reading RTR12's comments about liking both command and traditional block control, caused me to wonder about using both.  First thought is that they are incompatible.  Is anybody doing this?  If so how is this set up?

 

Bill

The basic concept of using relays is that insulated outside rail sections are used to trigger relays to operate, to hold, or to release, depending upon the design of the circuit, as metallic wheels bridge from the constantly-powered outside rails to the insulated rail.

 

There is no reason that this method cannot be employed on a layout that is using a command control system.  In fact, real railroads, even electrified ones like the former PRR and subway systems, use essentially the same control rail methods without interference from their traction circuits, which have voltages ranging from 600 Vdc to 12,000 Vac.

One implementation of a traditional block system with insulated rails and relays would have a train trip a relay that would turn off the block behind.  If there was a command locomotive in the block that was powered down, then that loco would have power cut while it is running and not go through normal shut-down.  How will that command loco come up when power is restored?  Can the command loco be programmed to handle this scenario?

 

Bill

I am using the isolated rail method for some crossing gates and things like that. I don't know how you would be able to do block control of engines like you are talking about with command control stuff in command control mode? I don't know about Arthur, but Dale H was running conventional only on his layout. He had some very interesting things going on that he had posted about on the forum previously, and he posted drawings and other information as is posted on his blog.

 

I just got back in the hobby a few years ago and was considering trying to do something like block control and going all conventional. However, I just couldn't resist the command control and the electronics end of the hobby so I went that route instead. Bought an MTH starter set and it has grown from there.

For an in depth treatise on a model auto block system find the December 1930 Popular Science Magazine.  In it and the following issues in January and February of 1931 a complete system is described including build it yourself 'relays' and signals and their associated wiring.

Several years ago I designed a very simple circuit that will do exactly what you asked for, run two trains simultaneously on the same loop. If you would like, I can send you the datails.

Here's a simple method for controlling two trains on the same track that was published in PS 1962. The pictures illustrate pretty clearly how it works.  Whistle tenders will obviously need to be disconnected or they will sound continuously.  Space inside your loco will need to be allocated for a single diode to compliment the supply diode.

 

Each train will respond to its own throttle in this system!

 

 

Gentlemen,

I'd like to thank you all for your feed back. I am a child of the 50s and have always had trains. The bulk of my roster is post war and MPC.  I would prefer to attempt a control system that complements the era.  Old school, yes but so am I! 

 

You can search the archive for popular science.  Here is one article from 1942.  Cool that you can do it. 

http://www.popsci.com/archive-...in%20control%20relay

I'm with you I prefer the elegance of the simple PW solutions that were used in the 50's.

 

Search the Popular Science archives as posted above, you will be amazed at some of the setups that were described for model trains.

Rkenney,

 

what month is that concept reviewed in 1962?  Can you post the link.  Can't find it. 

December 1962, pg. 136 Popular Science.

I wish you all the luck in the world trying to get it to work with engines with electromechanical E-units. Even a solid state E-unit such as what Williams has/had might be a tad easier, since if you leave the power off for a while, you know what direction the engine will go. Unfortunately its not standard. I think MTH PS2 engines, when run in conventional mode, have a 'standard' direction too. Lionel TMCC might too, but for the life of me I can't remember, its been so long since I have run one conventional.

 

If you really want to do this, you might have to switch to DC operation. That is a lot of time on modifications that would reduce the resale value of your postwar engines unless you can put it all back the way it was.

 

There are these neat devices called micro PLCs that could help, but if you aren't familiar with relays, capacitors, diodes, I would recommend against it. I'm fond of Siemens Logo! 24VDC units at work, and I once goofed around with them at home, but I am too busy goofing off on the computer to get serious about it. Other companies make them too. Idec? Koyo? Allen-Bradley? Moeller?

 

Personally I would take gun runner john's advice. Or the MTH equivalent. (I Forgot, which is better, Ford, or Chevy?)

Here are a couple of Lionel publications that might help too. I think there is info on blocks in there and a lot of other good postwar information too.

 

The 1954 version was posted by Susan Deats in the Electrical forum under the "Electrical Reference Materials & Manuals" thread that is a sticky at the top of the Electrical forum.

 

I can't remember who posted the 1965 version so I can't give proper credit here, sorry. I think it also may have been Susan Deats, was thinking I got these both from the same place, but I don't see the 1965 version listed in her post over in the electrical thread. Sorry, I just don't remember?

If by "old school" you mean to stay true to the technology of the era such as fabricating your own relays by winding wire around nails to make a relay electromagnet (or whatever), then the hobby is a big tent and there are many ways to enjoy it.

 

If you are willing to take advantage of component technology advances such as modern relays, capacitors, rectifiers and such but still use the fundamental old school techniques, then you can accomplish what you want for, say, $10-20 and there have been OGR articles about this (or Dale H's blog as noted earlier).

 

As noted, one question to resolve is what your particular engines do after power is removed to stop them using the old-school method.  When power is re-applied does the engine stay stopped, go forward or backward, etc..  That will depend on what engines you have and the kind of reversing-units they use, and then whether you are willing to modify the engine or track voltage system to accomodate this.  So more specifics on your engines would be useful.

 

Separately, wrt the command issue. one block relay method is to reduce (not remove) the voltage so there's just enough voltage to keep the electronics alive but not enough to move the motor.  This may or may not work for your particular command engine.  If you are willing to make small modifications to the engine, you can insert a small cut-off relay between the electronics and the motor to only remove motor power.  This way the electronics (sounds, lights) continue running and when the cut-off relay is disabled the engine starts moving again.  So the idea is the controlled block sends a localized signal to the local engine to activate the cut-off relay.  Or you can insert a string of diodes between the electronics and the motor so when you drop track voltage the electronics stays alive but the motor gets a greatly reduced voltage that is not enough to move it.  Again, this depends on what exact command electronics are in your engine.

 

 

I run conventional and there are a couple of books that are very helpful. Besides the basics they include information on automatic train control using relays.

They are volumes 1 & 2 Wiring Your Lionel Layout by Peter Riddle published by Greenberg and The Lionel Train Book with a wide variety of information.

All are out of print but an internet search should find them.

Scotie

Wiring Your Toy Train Layout by Peter Riddle is also good and a current publication (Kalmbach). I would like to get the Peter Riddle Greenberg volumes 1 & 2 myself, but when I last looked they were out of print and pretty pricey. 

The circuit I referred to in my earlier posting does what RRRJohn requested, runs two trains on the same loop with the engines starting and stopping automatically without operator intervention. Isn't this the original request?

Do share! We'd like to see your method.

Yes, please post. I would like to look at it also.

Thanks to all for the help.  I think I have the info I need to give it a try.  I did enjoy the publication links especially the Popular Science articles from the early 30s.

Thanks for the email, Bob.

RRRR John

I will try to explain the construction of two train operation on a loop.

 

My layout is conventional control and I use relay operated isolated sections of track to control two of my three loops to operate two trains per loop.   This has been in operation since 1977 when the layout was built in Kingston, Jamaica.  To show how this works see youtube video below which shows two train operation on the outer loop only.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szGr4ymfJEs

 

I used the Lionel Book referenced earlier as “Lionel Train and Accessory Manuel” 1954 but a later addition called  “Lionel Train and Accessory Manuel “Copyrighted in 1975 but it is the same. 

 

Page 35 of the 1954 ed shows the circuit.  I use a 12 vac relay with signal pole double throw contacts (good for at least 10 amps) and only use one set of contacts. The relays are triggered by a single section of isolated track on one outside rail with the train wheels making contact with isolated track and the common outside rail on the other side of the section (see pg 37 of 1954 ed).

 

 I installed a feed from the transformers variable voltage output to isolated 5 or 6 section of track, where the train stops, with 5 ohm, 25 watt adjustable resistor to allow a couple of volts to go to the section to keep the e units from cycling (see pg 31 of the 1954 ed).

 

To allow trains to operate in both directions in the loop I have two isolate 5 to 6 sections, one on each side of the trigger sections where the relay gets it signal. I select the direction with a single pole double throw slide switch that lets me select which isolated 5 or 6 section will be controlled and thus the direction.  (Note the trigger section must always be ahead of the isolated section). 

 

I also have single throw switch in the 12 vac line to the relay of each loop to turn off the relay when not in operation.  The relay reverts to send power to the 5 or 6 isolated section when power is off of the relay.

 

Hope this helps.  Two train operation is lots of fun but you must keep the trains somewhat balanced as to operating voltage so that a lighter train can not over run a slower one before it reaches the trigger section!

 

 

 

Picture showing control panel switches for Two Train Operation per loop switches.  In and Out refer to inner loop system and outer loop system. 

 

Top Red reset button on LW trans circuit breaker with red light tripped indicator to right of button.

 

1 trans and 2 trans switch allows red light LW to run whole board, or when to 2 trans to allow red light LW to run main board inside loop only.  And Green lighted LW to run main outside loop and all of new board. 

 

 

 

 

Charlie

 

 

 

 

 

Great description of the circuit!  Sums it up very nicely, and enhanced by the experience of building and running it.  Thanks 

Thanks Choo Choo Charlie.  That gives me more options. I like the idea of a minimum voltage to stop the e-unit from cycling. I would have just put it in manual.

PS 1962 what was that if you dont mind me asking?

 

December, 1962 Popular Science

Lionel made at least one slot car set that worked on 1/2 wave D.C., as shown in the popular science article. I have one, and have used it plenty.
The only problem with the slot cars is that they ran a whole lot better on straight D.C.
I suspect that Lionel trains also run a whole lot better on either A.C. or straight D.C.

I never actually tried the system posted in that article.  It does look plausible and intrigued me, but I realize as well that you are going to have to run pretty much full throttle just to get any motion out of your locos!

 

I'd be curious enough to try it some time just to find out how much more throttle (voltage) is needed.   

That's how the old Eldon slot car sets worked. Very reliable operation. You're right; it will definitely drive whistle tenders crazy.

Hi Folks,

 

      With this technique:

were the motors permanent magnet DC or open frame universal?

 

Thanks!

 

Take care, Joe.

That circuit may independently control two trains but in addition to requiring modifications to your engines and whistle/horn units, it won’t do what the OP wants to do which he stated in his 2^nd posting above “I would like to run two trains on the same loop automatically stopping and starting the trains”.  The key word is “automatically”.

 

So it’s back to the “old school” such as Choo Choo Charlie’s layout or by following the diagrams in the post-war operating manuals like that 1965 manual posted above (BTW to rtr12: that is a scan of my copy which I had posted a year or so ago). 

 

I noticed that Charlie used 12-volt AC relays which simplifies the circuit and wiring.  When building a previous layout many years ago I got lucky and found some 12-volt AC DPDT relays at a local electronic surplus store which I’m still using.  They don’t carry them any longer.  I’m sure Arthur Bloom and the other “older” telephone guys are familiar with those relays! 

 

And Charlie added a useful extra twist to allow operation in either direction. 

 

Bill

My intent was not to suggest that the Popular Science diode article would provide automatic control, merely to present some interesting methods.

 

In fact, my first reply suggested a Popular Science article that provided automatic block control.  In it the author presents instructions to build what are essentially SPDT latching AC relays with which he controls individual blocks.

 

 

 

Lionel did provide this automatic stop and go feature for a single train in their 132 Station.  The wiring diagram is shown below.

 

 

 

Thanks, I have noted proper credit so I get it correct next time. I used to be able to remember these things.  

 

Automation Direct has 12 volt AC relays in SPDT, DPST, 3PDT & 4PDT. Linking to the relays here has failed in the past, but if you got to their site and drill down through the menus to the General Purpose, 15A, (781/782/783/784 series you will find them. Lots of nice features as well. Sockets are available also (links from the relay pages).

 

The menus would be:

Relays / Timers > Electro-Mechanical Relays > Square / Cube Relays... > General Purpose, 15A (781 / 782 / 783 / 784 Series)

 

 

That twin diode circuit from 1962 will work to run two trains, but it doesn't do what was originally requested which was the auto start and stop.

That observation has already been made several times.  Since you have a circuit that does what was asked for why don't you share it with the group?

If you message Bob, he'll send it to you you. It was printed in a "klassic" publication that kind of precludes sharing it in this forum as he presented it.

I had this at my house for a bit. Using insulted center rails, pressure, & at other times, insulated rail triggering 12volt relays. When activated by the toggle switch, turnout "A" auto derailing, throws turnout "B". Green=B straight, Red is B diverted to a turn. Another toggle switch(not shown) controlled a power jump to the outlined "stop" sections(blue,green come into play one direction, purples the other, but all were not active)

I added the blocks from memory, the blue sensor and stop were to the left a bit more after adjusting for timing.

 

It was fun. Started as a single train route reversing on itself, with an optional small oval, away from the more active area.

Then I started to want two trains at once.

 

 

 

 

Edit: were not active

Dallee has an auto control system, more complicated, but, if it works as well as the Stop and Go trolley system it should be reliable.

Two Train Automation with Momentum

Wiring diagram

 

Maybe I am the only one with this challenge but when I look at the illustrations I can't make sense of them based on looking on an actual relay.  I want to do this but I can't for the life of me figure out what goes where on a dpdt relay.   3 vertical inputs on each side and one horizontal on each side and one confused person.

Post a picture of your relay please.


Sent from a smart phone....please excuse the brevity and any typos

I would post a pic if I knew how to do that.  I posted them to my profile but I can't for the life of me post them in this thread.

Here is a spec sheet on the relays I posted above. There are diagrams and terminal markings. Also on most relays of this type the terminals and a little wiring diagram is printed on one side of the relay. Take a look and see if this helps.

 

Ask if you have questions and I will try to answer them as best as I can.

Thanks.  I think I will pick up a few of these.  

 

http://www.automationdirect.co...,_Plug-In,_3A_-_15A_(78x-z-_Qxx-z-H78x_Series)/General_Purpose,_15A_(781_-z-_782_-z-_783_-z-_784_Series)/781-1C-12A?showReviews=true

 

 

i want to wire a loop and have two trains running at one where the leading train kills the block behind and activates once it leaves the block.  

 

For some reason that relay site won't link here? Many have tried and many have failed! Either follow the link in my post above following the menu structure I posted or when you get to the search box from bdobson's link use 781 relay for your search. Following the menus from the main page gives a bit better of a page layout for some reason also?

 

Those really are nice relays, IMO. They come in quite a few coil voltages as well, some harder to find ones. Lots of features, the socket locks the relay in place and has a place for labeling on the lock bar. There are even plugin MOV and diode modules available for them. Free 2 day shipping on orders over $49 also. (No, I don't work there, just like the relays. )   

 

In the diagram above showing running two trains through diodes if both throttles aren't set to the same voltage a portion of the transformer will be shorted through the two diodes.

Relay info to at least check out. In simple terms, diodes here, help a relay from "fluttering". (used on ac & dc alike, some are built in)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...e:FlybackExample.GIF

 

 

common is not always = to a ground in electronics, it can cover different meanings. Even with power, common does not necessarily mean negative, and negative doesn't mean always mean ground.  It has to be taken in context. In a relay common means the one lead common to the two positions of the relay points, NO & NC.

A relays electrical mechanics, are a simple electromagnet solenoid (linear motor) (a coil of wire around a loose nail).

I just checked out the relay specs above. I sure could have used those plug in diodes on a few coin-op machines. (if you have a coil issue, its normally that diode, or the switching components just before it)

The slight offset of pins on the center rail, and green isolated rail is to account for wheels activating relay before a roller can make un-broken power You can divide this easily too. Energizing connect pink. For a dead stop, remove pink wire

and if you choose only 2-3 blocks, maybe this

If you run lighted/operating cars/cabooses, etc.. LED lights with a good capacitor might be needed. Or something going to the motor(diode) to slow them down till voltage at the cars achieves a "normal level" on a "slowed" track.

Ebay is your friend for small parts, just search 12 vac relay, and look for at least 5 amp contacts.  Free shipping and buy it now are also good in most cases. 

I would prefer the open style versus the kind that plug in.

 

 

Example

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magnec...;hash=item58b2ad5850

 

 

Charlie

Curious question. How come nobody seems to want to use the Potter and Brumfield KUP-11a15-12ac relays anymore? Industrial strength, these don't need a bridge rectifier and work great off a small AC transformer. I have 10 of them driving signals and have never had an issue in 15 years. Newark and Mouser stock these and their bases.  

Two reasons.

 

#1: $12.72 is pretty expensive for a relay.  Add the cost for a base and it's pretty steep.

 

#2: With a dc relay you can add a capacitor to eliminate chatter.

 

It is interesting to note that this original posting has generated as expansive a discussion as that late 2014 discussion on the merits of battery operation for OGauge. Looks like model trains are not all that simple.

And the amount of that offset should be more than "slight" if you are running certain engines like the early post-war Alcos and GP-7’s.  On the Alco’s the center rail pickup is 5” back from the front axles.  When running post-war Geeps short-hood first, that  measurement is 8”.  So in that case you need to offset the center-rail insulating pin at least 8 inches back from the outside rail insulating pin to avoid the engine stopping completely at low speeds.  How did I learn that?  The hard way, of course!

 

Bill

P&B were prevalent in coin-op, and large industrial applications. Coin ops can do 10,000 cycles in a week. If I had the cash option, it would be my 1st choice. 

And another 9 for a screw base. So for about the same price as the Train Electrics AC DPDT you get a Heavy Duty industrial rated relay? It still amazes me how an OGauger will spend Kilo bucks on a scale essentially handcrafted Locomotive, but cheap out on the essentials. Its not too long afterwards that they post up that they can't understand why said locomotive runs disappointingly on their layout.  

Whatever floats your boat.  P&B isn't the only relay that is reliable, and I prefer DC relays for the reasons stated.

 

Potter and Brumfield KUP-11a15-12ac

Mechanical endurance 10x106 ops.

 

Then I go to the American Zettler model that Jameco is selling for 99 cents.

 

AMERICAN ZETTLER  AZ942-1CT-12DE

Life Expectancy Minimum operations
Mechanical 1x107
Electrical 1 x 105 at 10 A 277 VAC Res.

 

So, I get a relay that has an expected lifetime 10x the P&B one, and instead of $12, I get it for $1.  What's not to like?

 

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

You go with what you know. Industrial HVAC industry relied mostly on P&B too.

P&B may offer an identical relay to the AZ.

I think we are also comparing two case styles with different industrial classifications.

But...Now I know something new, GR John likes AZ.

How old is American Zettler? Did they once have an inverted diamond-like triangle logo? Actually seems familiar, but not as prevalent.  

 

 Aluminium, or Aluminum screws to hold the base?

It seems American Zettler is a pretty robust company with a diverse product line.

 

Truthfully, while I understand the desire to have bulletproof construction, the primary selection criteria I use is the functional aspects.  For signaling, DC relays offer me more flexibility, the ability to eliminate contact chatter is big in my book.  Our modular club modules have a bunch of salvaged DC relays from industrial controls, we've never experienced a relay failure, and I seriously doubt I'll live long enough to see one.  Any decent quality relay will probably stand the test of time for the types of applications we're doing.

 

As a counter-point, I had a Potter & Brumfield T-92 Relay DPDT 120VAC 30A T92S11A22-120 in my power panel to switch my generator in, the coil failed in less than a year, maybe a dozen or two activations at most.  Any part can fail.

P & B is owned by Siemens. I used to work for Siemens, different division. We used Idec relays, P & B were too expensive. Go figure? The Idec's were very reliable, about the only failures were when someone (usually new) tried using one to start a motor directly. The contacts close, never to open again after that first start up. Don't ask how I learned this.  

 

Anything can fail is right, just like our trains. Most are quite good and well designed and built, but as you say, any part can fail at any time.

 

I am fairly new to DC relays (everything we did was AC) and also beginning to like that as a power source and for relays. No chattering is nice.

GunrunnerJohn,

 

Do you have a suggested vendor/part number for a capacitor to eliminate DC relay chatter?

Kirk, you can use any generic electrolytic capacitor once you have a DC supply to the relay.  To be honest, it's such a simple circuit that I've never drawn an "official" diagram.

 

A diode, a 10 ohm resistor (inrush limiting), the capacitor, and the relay.  If you run DCS locomotives, I add a 22uh choke in front of the diode.  The capacitor is sized for the coil current of the relay, the more coil current, the larger the capacitor.  Typical values would be from around 220uf to 1000uf.