Becoming a Lionel and/or MTH Service Technician: What Does it Take?

$$$$$$ for all the parts you would need to stock😄

@Lionelzwl2012 posted:

$$$$$$ for all the parts you would need to stock😄

That's good to know!

I think you’ll find there’s a number of us that would be willing to put in the work to be authorized, myself included. While I may be wrong on the current situation this is where I think we are. MTH obviously just went through it’s own transition so don’t expect them to put on a certification class any time soon. Lionel has not had any classes since the departure of Mike Ragon and while one time when I talked with Aaron last year and he indicated they were looking into doing some sort of class that’s never surfaced. Frankly I don’t know how Lionel  expects to go on like this, from what I know service stations got little to no information on the RCMC and now the the LCP series boards and the move to NC for all warranty repairs I don’t know if they’ll ever do another class

I simply read through threads and learn what I can from the experts. I’ve also had my fair share of oops when I open my own locomotives.

PS: If someone knows how to retrieve the tiny black screws that disappear without a trace I’m all ears 😅 (note the basement carpet is very dark blue)

I attended the Lionel class in the mid 2000’s and the technology then was radio and railsounds boards, a motor driver which was fairly easy to troubleshoot.  The last Lionel loco I opened up had about 6 different boards in it that I didn’t recognize.  It seems from year to year they change the boards, so I can’t stock anything but the original boards that I was trained on.  

For MTH, it was challenging at first because the training was nothing like what Mike Reagan provided under Lionel.  That was one reason I went to work there, to learn more about this stuff (they bugged me for a year after I retired and I had a weak moment and said yes).  For me, the experience of doing hundreds of repairs helped learn common problems with their products, but my go-to reference was schematics for the boards/locos and understanding the pinouts for each header.

With MTH service gone, I don’t foresee them having any training classes.  The new facility is tiny compared to the old place and does not physically have the room to hold a training class.

Being certified will get you the parts discount if you are not associated with a certified store, but we received calls from ASC’s that didn’t have a clue what they were doing and we questioned whether they should retain their rating.  A majority of board failures are caused by something external to the board and finding it through troubleshooting takes time, experience and expertise.  Just swapping out boards is not the solution.

Well since no one is having classes anymore I think you’re out of luck if you want to be a "certified" tech. You can certainly be an independent repair guy but I doubt MTH or Lionel are certifying anyone these days.

I think a basic electronics course is a good start as well as familiarization of the various products inside and out.

Know when to ask for help. This forum has the best ETs when it comes to our trains and most are eager to help.

@MartyE posted:

I think a basic electronics course is a good start as well as familiarization of the various products inside and out.

Short of going to a tech school and getting a Associates degree in Electronics.  Watch lots of Youtube videos on basic electronics/theory.  Learn ohms law, learn the resistor code, capacitors, inductors, transistors, some basis digital circuits.  Only then get into videos or learn from some of the experts here in train repair.

@MartyE posted:

Well since no one is having classes anymore I think you’re out of luck if you want to be a "certified" tech. You can certainly be an independent repair guy but I doubt MTH or Lionel are certifying anyone these days.

All things considered, I don't really expect to become authorized. I saw Lionel's announcement to move all warranty repairs in-house, and I don't know what to expect for MTH trains (have one or two but never ran them). Since I wouldn't be authorized I was thinking of building a portfolio website showing the work I had done as a means of demonstrating skill.

@superwarp1 posted:

Short of going to a tech school and getting a Associates degree in Electronics.  Watch lots of Youtube videos on basic electronics/theory.  Learn ohms law, learn the resistor code, capacitors, inductors, transistors, some basis digital circuits.  Only then get into videos or learn from some of the experts here in train repair.

I was thinking of looking at a local community college or finding courses online, but I forget how great a resource YouTube is as well!

Thank you all for the input.

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

All things considered, I don't really expect to become authorized. I saw Lionel's announcement to move all warranty repairs in-house, and I don't know what to expect for MTH trains (have one or two but never ran them). Since I wouldn't be authorized I was thinking of building a portfolio website showing the work I had done as a means of demonstrating skill.

To be honest, there are folks here that are not certified but could probably run circles around some of those that are.  I don't think being certified carries as much weight as it used to but word of mouth and a good reputation will work wonders for you.  I think you've got a good plan.  Absorb the information where you can get it.  See if anyone has any of the old technical manuals either company has put out that they are either willing to sell or share.

Handle every repair like you were working on your own item.  Good luck to you!  We could always use more repair folks.

If you're like me and some others, I think an apprenticeship would be the best way to learn. I took an electronic circuits course in college, and a course on EM, and while I am sure they were helpful to some I retained next to nothing, except maybe P = IxV . Others can pick up and learn from Youtube videos...I don't have that talent either.

You'd have be lucky enough to live near someone and that person would have to be willing to spend the time instructing. But, the neat thing about apprenticeships is that the apprentice then pays back the teacher by doing work (once they're able).

Good discussion of Part A (Service Tech.)

Part B (Business knowledge). Getting paid for your services.  Accounting, Self-employment taxes,  payroll, banking,  shipping, liability insurance(s),  mail/email correspondence, etc.

@Paul Kallus posted:

If you're like me and some others, I think an apprenticeship would be the best way to learn. I took an electronic circuits course in college, and a course on EM, and while I am sure they were helpful to some I retained next to nothing, except maybe P = IxV . Others can pick up and learn from Youtube videos...I don't have that talent either.

You'd have be lucky enough to live near someone and that person would have to be willing to spend the time instructing. But, the neat thing about apprenticeships is that the apprentice then pays back the teacher by doing work (once they're able).

Good advice and as an off-shoot, if you have an LHS near you that does repairs, talk to them about letting you come in to watch and learn (and help out) on the days they do repairs so you can get some experience.

I came back to trains about 20 years ago, and at the time I didn't know squat about command systems or the like.  I tinkered around with a variety of issues, both mechanical and electrical with various postwar models.  Then I discovered TMCC and later Legacy and started my wholesale conversion to command control.  On the way I acquired many dead or dying engines and did a lot of OJT repairs.  Along the way I was lucky enough to be able to get Lionel and MTH certified, though that didn't affect my repair abilities much, just added a nice wall hanging and access to dealer pricing.  I confess having a career in electrical engineering certainly helped when I launched into the electronics side of the products.

My advice to anyone that's wanting to get into the game is to start working on trains.  There's tons of help out there if you get stuck, and you'll learn a lot more by doing than by reading about it.  While it would be nice if Lionel and/or MTH were running training, that isn't likely to happen any time soon from the looks of things, so I'd just take it upon yourself to get started.

I doubt the manufacturers will be offering any kind of training , it sounds like these days it is like other appliances and the like, use it, it breaks, you throw it out (though that may work with a 40 buck coffee maker, not so good with expensive engines...).

There is an opportunity here for someone to produce a video series on troubleshooting and maintaining Lionel and MTH engines, similar to the ones that have been done over the years for postwar. Obviously there is a big difference, in the almost 30 year history of command control the number of components is staggering, the variations, post war are relatively simply beasts in comparison. And then how far do you go, is it at the board swap level (if you can even get them), or do you get into replacing components on a board? I could only wish this would happen, but given the amount of work to produce this kind of thing, doubtful you could get back a fraction of the cost of producing it. The only group that I could see doing this might be TCA (I realize they have never done this before) as a member service, but again the cost and the number of people likely interested in this would prob be too small.

And you don't repair this stuff with a screwdriver, toothpicks and cleaner. To do troubleshooting outside swapping boards would require equipment like a good oscilliscope and I would guess a logic analyzer (okay, GRJ, I hear you snorting, he is a hardware guy, I am soft (all over) *lol*). Diagnosing these is like diagnosing modern cars (though with cars at least you can buy an analyzer tool for less than 200 bucks that really helps), you don't do it with simple tools. And of course the first thing recommended, a good bottle of bourbon and a mason jar to drink it from (well, at least that is what Gibbs used on NCIS building his boats.

Just to add to what John suggests, get some broken trains and start fixing them, is get some books on basic electronics. Maybe take a course at the same time to help fill in the gaps.

The only electronic tool you will need is a good multimeter. The only time I ever used my scope was when analyzing serial data on TMCC and Legacy engines. Surely not a logic analyzer for repairs, maybe for aftermarket add ons.

Pete

While a good electronic background would help if your doing troubleshooting. A lot of the time your just switching out or upgrading components. I worked as a mechanic for years. In the summer we would get some kids from a local tech school for extra help. I didn’t expect them to know how to do the actual repair. I did expect them to do a neat job at whatever they did. I worked on School Busses that are inspected by the state. They expect things to look professionally done. I think if you want to get into this field. No one wants to open up their expensive Loco. and see a rats nest of wires or poorly mounted component.

If you watch some of Norm C’s recent videos. 3D printed brackets and wire routing on some of his upgrades. This would sell me on a repair person.

@MartyE posted:

To be honest, there are folks here that are not certified but could probably run circles around some of those that are.  I don't think being certified carries as much weight as it used to but word of mouth and a good reputation will work wonders for you.  I think you've got a good plan.  Absorb the information where you can get it.  See if anyone has any of the old technical manuals either company has put out that they are either willing to sell or share.

Handle every repair like you were working on your own item.  Good luck to you!  We could always use more repair folks.

EXACTLY......

If I could "LIKE" this reply a hundred times I would.

For what it's worth we asc techs are having a hard time getting ps 3/2 boards and many other parts are backordered! main problem is there is a silicon ic shortage everywhere effecting new cars being built and refrigerators computers etc ! and as said earlier Lionell and MTH are not having any more claesses

Good luck and wait!

Alan

Pick the part of the service field you like to do, and stick with it…..there’s a lot more to the industry than just electronics …..it’s no secret that I don’t enjoy the electronics side of it, I can do it, and I do it, but…… I like making chips on the floor, ….you have to find what you enjoy……, and your passion pours over into your customer’s work,….my passion is making the impossible POSSIBLE ,…..for me, the challenge is the juice….as soon as I retire, I’ll be in full bore as well,……I’ll echo the sediments above from the masters…..pick up some broken trains, and get busy!…you’ll find your niche soon enough!……..

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

My advice to anyone that's wanting to get into the game is to start working on trains.  There's tons of help out there if you get stuck, and you'll learn a lot more by doing than by reading about it.  While it would be nice if Lionel and/or MTH were running training, that isn't likely to happen any time soon from the looks of things, so I'd just take it upon yourself to get started.

@Norton posted:

Just to add to what John suggests, get some broken trains and start fixing them, is get some books on basic electronics. Maybe take a course at the same time to help fill in the gaps.

@harmonyards posted:

Pick the part of the service field you like to do, and stick with it…..there’s a lot more to the industry than just electronics …..it’s no secret that I don’t enjoy the electronics side of it, I can do it, and I do it, but…… I like making chips on the floor, ….you have to find what you enjoy……, and your passion pours over into your customer’s work,….my passion is making the impossible POSSIBLE ,…..for me, the challenge is the juice….as soon as I retire, I’ll be in full bore as well,……I’ll echo the sediments above from the masters…..pick up some broken trains, and get busy!…you’ll find your niche soon enough!……..

Pat

All great advice. I picked up a model last year that the previous owner had ripped the electronics out of, but I am thinking of taking that task on later as I think it will be more challenging (it's an articulated steamer). I've read suggestions that a diesel model is a good way to cut my teeth on ERR upgrades. As for buying broken engines, eBay has many listings showing as "for parts/repair", which is great except that they are almost all postwar. I am not a post war operator - oldest model I have is MPC. Are post war repair skills worth having in the proverbial toolbox?

@Alan Mancus posted:

For what it's worth we asc techs are having a hard time getting ps 3/2 boards and many other parts are backordered! main problem is there is a silicon ic shortage everywhere effecting new cars being built and refrigerators computers etc ! and as said earlier Lionell and MTH are not having any more claesses

All the more reason to hit the books first! that said, 3rd Rail has boards in stock that I could work with.

@Mike CT posted:

Good discussion of Part A (Service Tech.)

Part B (Business knowledge). Getting paid for your services.  Accounting, Self-employment taxes,  payroll, banking,  shipping, liability insurance(s),  mail/email correspondence, etc.

This reminds me, I recall reading that one of the biggest areas where freelancers, independent contractors, etc, lose money is failing to properly invoice. The  importance of the business aspect is not lost on me, and if I decide to take the business idea seriously I will have to think about all of that and more (eg, business plan, legal structure if I want to go a more formal route, etc). It's great that you bring that up, I wouldn't consider it the "fun" part but it's certainly pivotal to keep everything rolling!

Thank you all for your input, you all gave a lot of great information!

I have no formal "train technician" training, but I have somewhat of a knack for being able to take stuff apart and put it back together. Really it isn't all that hard. I've had some success at it.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ankenstein-s-monster

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...locomotive-from-junk

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...one-so-i-made-my-own

As for buying broken engines, eBay has many listings showing as "for parts/repair", which is great except that they are almost all postwar. I am not a post war operator - oldest model I have is MPC. Are post war repair skills worth having in the proverbial toolbox?

nothing wrong with being well rounded, sounds like a good way to augment a small cottage industry…..If you can pick up postwar/MPC or even Prewar at the right price and repair it, you can always turn around and flip it…..my son & I do that whenever the opportunity presents itself, and we feel like there’s meat on the bone ….that’s how I cut my teeth many many moons ago, my father had hobby shops, and we had enough postwar/prewar work to keep multiple repairmen busy all the live long day….then we became a service station and did warranty work for Lionel & KLine ……we also did high end brass 2 rail O, HO and others,…..we had relationships with just about every parts vendor there was, …..we had relationships with other techs, trading hard to find parts, & techniques…….some of those relationships I still have to this day, and it’s been 30 years since dad retired and closed his stores……so yeah, if the opportunity presents itself, pick up some inexpensive pieces, and perfect them, restore them as necessary, and flip them if you feel like you can churn a profit, …..even if it’s small……take lots of pictures of your progress on “how you did it” ……potential customers love that stuff,….neat & tidy wiring, correct fasteners, etc,…..there’s an old saying……ya gotta crawl before you can walk…..don’t matter if it’s model train industry, appliances, or automobiles……

Pat

@zhubl posted:

Lionel has not had any classes since the departure of Mike Ragon and while one time when I talked with Aaron last year and he indicated they were looking into doing some sort of class that’s never surfaced.

Actually, it was years before Mike left that the classes ceased being offered.  I think it's been at least ten years since the last Lionel training classes.  I actually asked Mike a number of times about when they'd have classes while he was still at Lionel, but it never happened.  I sure don't see anything happening at MTH anytime soon either.

Last Lionel Classes were in Ohio so at least a dozen years ago. Much of that info given out, essentially the pin out outs of the various boards at the time, can be found here on the TMCC forum. Very little if anything was taught on actual board circuitry. They were presented as black boxes with various functions. Most everything up to and including first generation Legacy was presented. Forum members, Bruk in particular have posted diagrams of later Legacy and Railsounds. Study those diagrams and you will have the same information as current service stations have.

Pete

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, it was years before Mike left that the classes ceased being offered.  I think it's been at least ten years since the last Lionel training classes.  I actually asked Mike a number of times about when they'd have classes while he was still at Lionel, but it never happened.  I sure don't see anything happening at MTH anytime soon either.

Thanks for the clarification John

@zhubl posted:

I talked with Aaron last year and he indicated they were looking into doing some sort of class that’s never surfaced.

I would suspect the last 2 years of the pandemic derailed any plans that they might have had.

I suspect you won't see any training going down the road, MTH is a shadow of what it once was and Lionel is operating much like MTH, in that they are stripped down as well (they don't exactly have a large team, in other words). If anything comes out it likely would be a third party creating a video series on repairing engines, but I can't see that either.

What I would like to see is more detailed maintenance information on the newer Legacy and PS/3 equipment.  The manufacturer surely has this information, it would be nice to get it in the hands of repair shops!  The best Lionel information on newer Legacy I've see is Bruk's excellent Legacy Wiring Diagrams!

I use these regularly, and I'm eternally grateful to Bruk for producing them!

I hope that maybe Lionel will produce similar documentation for the new crop of boards that showed up recently in the Legacy products.

@MartyE posted:

I would suspect the last 2 years of the pandemic derailed any plans that they might have had.

I don’t doubt that, although at the time it sounded like they were looking into some sort of online deal. Witch I’m sure that wouldn’t go over very well anyway.

@harmonyards posted:

nothing wrong with being well rounded, sounds like a good way to augment a small cottage industry…..If you can pick up postwar/MPC or even Prewar at the right price and repair it, you can always turn around and flip it…..my son & I do that whenever the opportunity presents itself, and we feel like there’s meat on the bone ….that’s how I cut my teeth many many moons ago, my father had hobby shops, and we had enough postwar/prewar work to keep multiple repairmen busy all the live long day….then we became a service station and did warranty work for Lionel & KLine ……we also did high end brass 2 rail O, HO and others,…..we had relationships with just about every parts vendor there was, …..we had relationships with other techs, trading hard to find parts, & techniques…….some of those relationships I still have to this day, and it’s been 30 years since dad retired and closed his stores……so yeah, if the opportunity presents itself, pick up some inexpensive pieces, and perfect them, restore them as necessary, and flip them if you feel like you can churn a profit, …..even if it’s small……take lots of pictures of your progress on “how you did it” ……potential customers love that stuff,….neat & tidy wiring, correct fasteners, etc,…..there’s an old saying……ya gotta crawl before you can walk…..don’t matter if it’s model train industry, appliances, or automobiles……

Pat

"Ya gotta crawl before you can walk" - this is probably the hardest thing to accept about learning anything new. You have to be bad at something before you can be good at it. But all in all that is a good case for post war, I'll keep an eye out for it. Thanks again for your input, I admire your work and appreciate your thoughts on the idea!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The best Lionel information on newer Legacy I've see is Bruk's excellent Legacy Wiring Diagrams!

I use these regularly, and I'm eternally grateful to Bruk for producing them!

I hope that maybe Lionel will produce similar documentation for the new crop of boards that showed up recently in the Legacy products.

Oh hey, I've seen that stickied thread but completely forgot about it, thanks for posting it!

@bigkid posted:

I suspect you won't see any training going down the road, MTH is a shadow of what it once was and Lionel is operating much like MTH, in that they are stripped down as well (they don't exactly have a large team, in other words). If anything comes out it likely would be a third party creating a video series on repairing engines, but I can't see that either.

I don't think this is a requirement to learn how to fix trains though. In my (inexperienced) mind, there's only so many ways to screw up an install or upgrade. Also the fact that I own any model I buy means I am free to change it and break it and buy replacement parts for it at my leisure (in our increasinly software-driven world, this is becoming less common as preference for licensable software has taken over). Granted, there is potential for some very costly mistakes, but I can still overcome those.

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

Granted, there is potential for some very costly mistakes, but I can still overcome those.

Trust me, anyone that's been doing repairs/upgrades for any reasonable period of time has seen a few costly mistakes occur on their watch!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Trust me, anyone that's been doing repairs/upgrades for any reasonable period of time has seen a few costly mistakes occur on their watch!

I don't doubt!

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

I don't doubt!

Developing a system of double or even tripe checking prevents installer errors…..it happens to the best of us, but minimizing it is the key, and never letting a failed component get into the hands of the consumer is paramount…..😉

test, test, and re-test

Pat

I am interested in doing some of my own repair. I read up above that they recommend an intro to electronics you tube course.  I am watching one that is titled Beginner Electronics. My question is how far should I go?   They are now into things like Arduino, logic gates and binary code.  Is this necessary or should I concentrate more on the basics IE: resistors,Ohms law, capacitors and diodes.

Thank you Rich R

No learning is bad learning, but I don't think you'll need coding skills for most train repairs, even electronics.