Can 036 run on traditional Lionel tubular 031 track?

If 36 inches is the specified as the minimum by the manufacturer; 31 is less than that and so the simple and proper answer is "no".

Consumers tend to oversimplify the problem by thinking the minimum specifies the ability for it to track around a simple singular curve piece of that size or greater. What is forgotten are more complex track scenarios, such as S curves and clearance for switch machines in various configurations which the manufacturer tests.

To further compound the matter, there were times when the number of curve sizes was more limited (not as many graduations) and so the minimum rating may only reflect the smallest curve size fully navigable available at the time. (This isn't necessarily an issue with your query as 31 and 36 goes back to the postwar days).

Your best bet (if the minimum is close to your desired value), is to actually ask your LHS to let you take the piece and guide it over some sample track of that size for you to make the determination. An alternative would be to ask someone, say on this forum, if a particular model will run over a particular set of track configurations.

Fred:

Not 100% analogous but; I used 0-27 track and switches on my entire layout yet regularly operate engines that are listed as a minimum 0-31.  

That said; BMORAN4's response is spot on; i.e. test before you buy.  I have done exactly as he mentions and asked hobby shop owners to assemble several pieces of track and a switch on the floor of the store so I can be certain an engine will clear before I buy it.  Generally you need do this only once for a particular type of engine as similar models from the same manufacturer should work if one does. 

Curt

fsileo posted:

Hi all

This may have been previously addressed.  If so, apologies.  Can Lionel engines labeled as “036 minimum” run on traditional Lionel tubular 031 track? Intuitavily, it doesn’t but I heard it will run from a friend.  Wondering . . . .

Thanks 

Certainly not universally.  Case in point is the Lionel Hogwart's Express.  It's rated at O36 and will NOT run on O31 track, the pilot wheels hit the steam cylinders.

FSILEO,

   The reality of the situation is that some Engines and Rolling stock will and some will not.  The best way to see if a particular 036 rated Engine will run on your 031 or 027 Track is to actually try it yourself, on the particular track you are using, and see what that particular engine actually does.

Still the best thing to due with any Engine & it's rolling stock is run it on the mfg's listed min Track curvature.  

PCRR/Dave

The numbers 036, 031, 027 , 072, 054 and so forth are actual measurements - not "specifications". It's geometry and physics. If the loco says 036, it means 036 - that's a physically larger curve than 031.

Now, the makers tend to rate these things conservatively at times, and there are pieces that can squeak around tighter standard-spec curves that what is stated on the box, but not many. Physics can't be fudged, but a stated number can be. 

Or maybe Lionel is just pushing 036 track . . . . .  

Thanks all

When they specify the minimum size it means a lot of things, it means that it can actually traverse the curves without derailing, but it also can mean, for example, that the overhang on the engine is not likely to hit things adjacent to the track, or bind in certain circumstances. a 2.5 " difference in radius should make much of a difference, but if the O36 was already a tight tolerance where, for example, the truck just misses something on the frame or the drivers (if steam) won't bind, then O31 likely will fail. If someone you know has extra O31 tubular track, you could create a circle and see if it can navigate it (if you have the engine), or if you a buying it locally if the store has O31 curves ask them to try it through there. 

The one thing is even if Engine A can work through O31, Engine B might not, I can pretty much guarantee you that Lionel (In this case) when they specify that don't have some scientific specs where all the engines are the same, it will vary between diesels and steam and between engines of the same type (IE diesel to diesel, steam to steam), so your best bet is always to test the engine or give a specific model on here or elsewhere and ask if anyone has tried it), O36 can either be a 'suggested' minimum or "no way in heck you could run it less than this". 

While we're on the subject, anybody know why is Ross and Gargraves O31 is a larger diameter then O31 Lionel tubular? Is it actually O36?

Lantom posted:

While we're on the subject, anybody know why is Ross and Gargraves O31 is a larger diameter then O31 Lionel tubular? Is it actually O36?

You should probably follow internet etiquette and create a new topic for this question, but to answer your question, it is simply because of slight inconsistencies of how manufacturers measure (center rail to center rail, outer extreme to outer extreme, inner to inner and so on). This is another reason to simply test before you buy.

Often a locomotive rated for 31"  really won't work well on 31.  It may throw traction tires ( my articulated steamers rated for 31" do this) and often they look really out of place on such small diameter turns.  Even my Rail King Dash 8's dislike 31" curves, even though they are rated for it.  But some engines run 31" just fine, especially shorter locomotives.  I think a short Lionel , even rated for 36", would probably run on 31".  But it would be good to test it first, and long enough to see if the traction tires will stay on.

Great, helpful comments. I strongly recommend that even if the manufacturer says an engine can negotiate 031 curves, if you have any doubts (maybe because the engine looks like it might be too big to handle such tight curves), then, if possible, take it for a test drive (preferably on your layout) or ask knowledgeable people (Forum members) about it.

Here's an example why. I have a beautiful MTH Railking smoking diesel with great realistic diesel sounds. I bought it from a local train store about 3 or 3 years ago. The packaging and store owner said it is fine on 031 curves. Now watch the video below closely as it goes through my 022 switch tracks (which have 031 curves):

Have you ever heard of the dance known as "the bump?" When you watch the above video carefully, the engine  does the bump when it goes through the switch tracks. It makes contact with and nudges the plastic switch machine cover.

It turns out that even at high speed the engine won't derail when it goes through the switches. I'm sure that there is no such nudging when this MTH engines goes through MTH switch tracks.

Initially, I was very disappointed when I noticed my engine nudge my Lionel post war 022 switches, thinking that I'm bound to get derailments. But, I've  now run it through hundreds of switch tracks on my layout without any derailments, and I'm fine with it. It's my engine that does "the bump," a rock and roll dance I love to do with a beautiful woman. 

I guess it can be said that this MTH locomotive barely qualifies as being able to negotiate post war 022 switches that have 031 curves.

Yup, I have the same “bump” on MTH engine GE ES44AC.  And I have two of them! Not good. 

Update for all, with specifics.  A friend of has Lionel’s subway set 6-31751.  R27’s (Green).  From 2008 I believe.  Legacy.  The Lionel manual for them says minimum radius is 036.  He successfully ran them on K-Line’s 031 shadow rail.   Not sure what this means.  Like I said, is Lionel pushing their 036 track?  Or are they incorrect without knowing it?  Or is this just an anomolity?  We may never know.  

P.S. just got the above info tonight. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

fsileo posted:

Hi all

This may have been previously addressed.  If so, apologies.  Can Lionel engines labeled as “036 minimum” run on traditional Lionel tubular 031 track? Intuitavily, it doesn’t but I heard it will run from a friend.  Wondering . . . .

Thanks 

Certainly not universally.  Case in point is the Lionel Hogwart's Express.  It's rated at O36 and will NOT run on O31 track, the pilot wheels hit the steam cylinders.

The engine will not do O31.  However the cars can.  

Ask and test are good policy.

fsileo posted:

Update for all, with specifics.  A friend of has Lionel’s subway set 6-31751.  R27’s (Green).  From 2008 I believe.  Legacy.  The Lionel manual for them says minimum radius is 036.  He successfully ran them on K-Line’s 031 shadow rail.   Not sure what this means.  Like I said, is Lionel pushing their 036 track?  Or are they incorrect without knowing it?  Or is this just an anomolity?  We may never know.  

As Lionel is no longer cataloging O31 tubular track, O36 is the new reference point for minimum curve for O Gauge.  That's what's included in the starter sets.  A new person with no previous experience getting into the hobby would unlikely have any knowledge of O31.

That doesn't mean some stuff couldn't go around O31 or even O27, just the advertised minimum is O36.  Back in the olden days Mantua/Tyco's HO 2-8-2's and 4-6-2's were advertised as 18" minimum radius, but they could go around 15" radius.

Rusty

fsileo posted:

Yup, I have the same “bump” on MTH engine GE ES44AC.  And I have two of them! Not good. 

On the O22 switches one may have to remove them and switch the switch machine to the outside.  But test first so this does not create more issues!

The K-line switch used lower switch machines, so that may be a help.  Also Ross now makes a O22 type.

But the best is ask and test before buying.

Thanks Rusty,  When did Lionel stop 031?

Rusty Traque posted:

As Lionel is no longer cataloging O31 tubular track, O36 is the new reference point for minimum curve for O Gauge.  That's what's included in the starter sets.  A new person with no previous experience getting into the hobby would unlikely have any knowledge of O31.

Rusty

 Rusty, Lionel has O31 Fastrack and switches in their latest catalog - however, you are correct that Lionel is moving away from tubular:

http://www.lionel.com/products...urved-track-6-37103/

http://www.lionel.com/products...-right-hand-6-81253/