Harry Henning ..thank you for supporting the hobby to keep all of us rolling .... also thank you for sharing real time perspective of pricing and quantities of sales needed to break even before paying the electric bill or perhaps a bit of food for the staff /serfs . 

If you are just stamping sheet metal ... you can probably get away much cheaper with less permanent dies ...  in the 70's both   Lion Lines in the San Fran area ...and Harlan Creswell  in Washington state,  stamped out State cars ......  Chuck Schaffer produced the 256 and 700 cars ..run of 100 ...using the Lion Lines guy for the tooling ...   all 3 were probably happy if they broke  even on the production ...  I believe these were  hard wood?  molds ...and had a very limited life ( small number of sharp stampings) .     Looking at one of these pieces compared to a  true  Lionel / MTH piece you can see the difference in the details of the stamped features, close yes but not as sharp .  No idea about the Brute sets .. 

cheers Carey 

Carey Williams posted:

Harry Henning ..thank you for supporting the hobby to keep all of us rolling .... also thank you for sharing real time perspective of pricing and quantities of sales needed to break even before paying the electric bill or perhaps a bit of food for the staff /serfs . 

Amen! Harry is the most honest guy I ever dealt with in any toy train transaction. I would highly recommend him if you need parts or something repaired or anything! 

Tom 

I can make steel molds.

But my first one will be f diesels..STD ga. 

But some can be made in pieces then rivited like full size engines.

The gp type would be easier to do like that.. Then sell as kit... 

Harry.  Thumbs up...

Riki

Hello all ...F units have been made ...alas in limited quantities...Dan Eubanks ..made molds for A&B's . ( 1980's ) + -

.. sold molds to Bob Thon of Robert's Lines ..but did not like the finished surface of the castings ..need lots of finishing .. 

 

DeHanes offered a beautiful set of F units  A&B's...poured resin ? ( along with a stunning set of extruded aluminum cars 24" & 30" in length!)    

 

 

 

 

mold and modelaa with 100 series boxA and obs

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Jim Waterman posted:

I will be building a small run of standard gauge GG1's but not for another year. For those familiar with the a gold Standard GG1 made by Bob Hendrichs, mine will be along the same size. About 30" long, drive wheels are 1.8" diameter and are already Cnc machined and chemically blackened. Body will be cast aluminum based on a 3D print I have already completed.  Expect to make 6 of them and then see what the demand is. Will have heavy can motors and Boston gears, and aluminum machined frames with electronic reverse.  

Stay tuned

 

jim Waterman

 

Jim,

After you finish your run of Standard Gauge GG1's, please consider making a short run of FM Erie-Built diesel locomotives.  Unlike GG1s, several railroads ordered and ran Erie-Builts.  Of course my favorite is Milwaukee Road's initial Olympian Hiawatha locomotive.

Olympian Hiawatha FM Erie Built diesel

Bob Nelson

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A very educational and well written set of posts on low count production. 

20 years earlier and I might have been moving my old mill into my own garage.

Thank you for being here gentlemen

(says the ant among giants  

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





If we can dream about potential locomotives to be built, as a lover of PRR steam switchers, I would be remiss if I failed to cast a vote for a remake of Harlan Creswell's 608E. I have zero/zippo/nada standard gauge equipment, but I would buy that one. As far as others being willing to purchase one, I think we can see the popularity of the B6 over the years, with all of its various incarnations from Lionel (recent ones and 1989), K-Line, MTH...not to mention Williams making a brass version several years ago and the original prewar scale and semi-scale Lionel releases. If the GG1 could be the most popular electric locomotive to be modeled, I think it is safe to say the B6 would be in the top 5 (or at worst, in the top 10) of steam locomotive models being made. 

On a related note, I had posted this topic a while ago... https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...02#81396264945688802

Photo of Harlan Creswell's 608E from Carey Williams:

harlan creswell B6 via Carey Williams

Tom 

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I have a hypothetical question based on this thread.  Would there be any interest in an O gauge tinplate GP-9 with box couplers?

There could be as much or as little detail as a manufacturer wanted to include, and nearly every possible paint scheme you could want. (Although  for tinplate, less is usually more.) A fair amount of room would be available for can motors and electronics based off of existing models to cut down development costs.  

Anyway, just a passing question, any interest in an O gauge tinplate GP-9?

May God Bless us all.

Jim,

Forget about the GG1s!   Only the PRR had them while several railroads ran Erie-Builts.   Therefore, the market of Erie-Builts would likely be greater than for GG1s, so why don't you fabricate a tinplate Standard Gauge Erie Built particularly in The Milwaukee Road's original Olympian Hiawatha livery as seen below in Brook Steven's original design concept drawing for the Olympian Hiawatha train,   

Brooks Stevens Eire Built Hiawathas

or as seen below in the original prototype!  

Milwaukee Road Erie Built

Bob Nelson

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riki posted:

As far as I know. Jim does not do metal Tinplate.

If Jim doesn't do tinplate, how would you classify the ten Olympian Hiawatha cars, which Jim custom built and sold to me?  I would call them Modern Era Standard Gauge (MESG} tinplate.

MILW Olympian Hiawatha

Bob Nelson

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jhz563 posted:

I have a hypothetical question based on this thread.  Would there be any interest in an O gauge tinplate GP-9 with box couplers?

There could be as much or as little detail as a manufacturer wanted to include, and nearly every possible paint scheme you could want. (Although  for tinplate, less is usually more.) A fair amount of room would be available for can motors and electronics based off of existing models to cut down development costs.  

Anyway, just a passing question, any interest in an O gauge tinplate GP-9?

I would be very surprised if there was much interest beyond "I never saw one, don't have one, I'll take one to shut my full wallet up".  But you obviously have an interest; which is cool.

  I think that  it would make for a good home spun unit. It isn't too hard of a shape to pull off even for a novice metalworker.  A 2x4 & hammer stuff. That could get to a Marx-ish level of build at least IMO. Sky is the limit and  cheap enough to try a shell attempt

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





riki posted:

News to me Bob.  I have only heard him talk. 3 d printing.

My Daylight set from Jim is a multimedia affair. Mostly aluminum, but includes some resin, delrin etc. My Challenger will have more tin in it. He has to be willing to use all types of media to produce the low volume items.

Steve

Steve "Papa" Eastman

Yorba Linda, CA

Left Coast, Home of the lunatics

riki posted: 

News to me Bob.  I have only heard him talk. 3 d printing.

Riki,

You are partially correct.  Jim uses 3D printing in the fabrication of some his MESG cars but not all.  For example, if you look closely at the photo of the Milwaukee Road Skytop observation car that I posted above, Jim used 3D printing to fabricate the rear "Skytop" portion of the observation car but did not use it to fabricate the front portion of the car nor did he use it to fabricate any of the other nine Olympian Hiawatha cars, which I ordered.  However, he did use other "modern" techniques to fabricate the cars including having the "tinplate" sides of the cars cut out using a computer controlled high pressure water jet machine, which followed the computer drawings he made based on the actual blueprints/drawings for the prototype Olympian Hiawatha cars that I gave him.  Electronic copies of these blueprints/drawings I had obtained from the Milwaukee Road Historical Association and from the Milwaukee Public Library's Milwaukee Road Archive and then emailed to Jim for his use in constructing the ten Olympian Hiawatha cars, which I had ordered.      

Bob Nelson 

navy.seal posted:
riki posted:

As far as I know. Jim does not do metal Tinplate.

If Jim doesn't do tinplate, how would you classify the ten Olympian Hiawatha cars, which Jim custom built and sold to me?  I would call them Modern Era Standard Gauge (MESG} tinplate.

MILW Olympian Hiawatha

Bob Nelson

Isn't mass-production one of the criteria for tinplate trains? Either way, Bob, that is one beautiful train. It blows away the detail of my JAD Hiawatha!

 

John

Image result for train collectors association emblem

  TCA 90-30847

  NJ HiRailers Associate Member

BlueComet400 posted:
navy.seal posted:
riki posted:

As far as I know. Jim does not do metal Tinplate.

If Jim doesn't do tinplate, how would you classify the ten Olympian Hiawatha cars, which Jim custom built and sold to me?  I would call them Modern Era Standard Gauge (MESG} tinplate.

MILW Olympian Hiawatha

Bob Nelson

Isn't mass-production one of the criteria for tinplate trains? Either way, Bob, that is one beautiful train. It blows away the detail of my JAD Hiawatha!

 

John 

John,

If one uses the categories established by Arno Baars (modernerasg) for Modern Era Standard Gauge (MESG) trains, "mass production" is not a requirement for all types of MESG tinplate trains.  I think Arno would have categorized the 10 Waterman-built Olympian Hiawatha cars I own as "craftsman-built MESG tinplate".  As I recall, Arno established four categories of MESG trains, the criteria for each category he described in detail in an article he wrote for the TCA Quarterly.  Unfortunately, I don't recall in which specific TCA Quarterly issue this article was published. 

Bob Nelson

MILW Olympian Hiawatha.8

Waterman-built Milwaukee Road diner

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Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:
riki posted:

News to me Bob.  I have only heard him talk. 3 d printing.

My Hiawatha set from Jim is a multimedia affair. Mostly aluminum, but includes some resin, delrin etc. My Challenger will have more tin in it. He has to be willing to use all types of media to produce the low volume items.

Steve

Steve,

How about posting some photos of your Jim Waterman-built Hiawatha set.

Bob Nelson

Having seen some of his beauthiful work in photos I would purchase anything he is willing to produce. I can really appreciate the dedication of small volume craftsmen.

Frank Ventura

choochoo@technologynation.us

 

 

... Another dedicated member of the model railroad quality control department. whenever I see quality, I try to control it...

 

navy.seal posted:
Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:
riki posted:

News to me Bob.  I have only heard him talk. 3 d printing.

My Hiawatha set from Jim is a multimedia affair. Mostly aluminum, but includes some resin, delrin etc. My Challenger will have more tin in it. He has to be willing to use all types of media to produce the low volume items.

Steve

Steve,

How about posting some photos of your Jim Waterman-built Hiawatha set.

Bob Nelson

Bob, mistake on my part. My set from Jim is a Daylight.

Steve

Steve "Papa" Eastman

Yorba Linda, CA

Left Coast, Home of the lunatics

I wonder if Jim would ever consider producing an Amtrak GG1 in phase 1 livery with aluminunum Amfleet cars?

Frank Ventura

choochoo@technologynation.us

 

 

... Another dedicated member of the model railroad quality control department. whenever I see quality, I try to control it...

 

ash standard posted:

Jim Waterman GG1 Standard gauge

has anyone seen one for sale recently? Or is there another batch being made.

I haven't built them yet. I have the wheels, motors, some of the patterns made (will be a cast metal shell), but quite a bit of work to go until I have a sample. Maybe Spring 2020 York.

I will have a Tuscan Bob Hendrichs GG1 available if anyone has any interest in that one.

Jim Waterman

Jim Waterman

Lee Lines Limited

Custom Built Standard Gauge

 

navy.seal posted:

Jim,

Forget about the GG1s!   Only the PRR had them while several railroads ran Erie-Builts.   Therefore, the market of Erie-Builts would likely be greater than for GG1s, so why don't you fabricate a tinplate Standard Gauge Erie Built particularly in The Milwaukee Road's original Olympian Hiawatha livery as seen below in Brook Steven's original design concept drawing for the Olympian Hiawatha train,   

Brooks Stevens Eire Built Hiawathas

or as seen below in the original prototype!  

Milwaukee Road Erie Built

Bob Nelson

Keep trying Bob, maybe one day, but have several projects before that one!

Jim

Jim Waterman

Lee Lines Limited

Custom Built Standard Gauge

 

Norm posted:

Jim Waterman,

Do you have a company website or email?  I did not see anything in your profile.

Norm

No website  - I think you found my email. I build to order - word of mouth (and this forum) have been the main ways that I connect with people. Also I tend to bring stuff to the York meet - the SGMA breakfast, some sold, some I build just for myself.

Jim

Jim Waterman

Lee Lines Limited

Custom Built Standard Gauge

 

riki posted:

News to me Bob.  I have only heard him talk. 3 d printing.

Riki,

I produce the Lee Lines Daylight, their aluminum passenger cars (engine is largely aluminum castings - all metal, cars are extruded aluminum with resin cast ends). Also producing the Harmon engines (Challenger, Hudson, Pacific) - these are all metal, aluminum castings, copper/brass, using bild a loco motors. Also the Harmon passenger cars (Bob Nelson's set for example). I did the CAD work on the car sides in order to get my water jet house to cut exact window patterns for the 1948 Hiawatha cars. Only the back half of the Skytop lounge is 3D printed. Those cars are all metal and pretty heavy.

Future stuff will be based on 3D printed models, attempting to make castable patterns so the shells will be all metal. Frames will be machined -  I have had good luck using aluminum extrusions as the basis, fitting the gears inside and using bronze bushings.

Bob's Harmon set is still one of a kind. I had a second set of the car sides made up so that I can either build for me or sell to others.

I have a local foundry that provides the castings from my patterns, they do pretty good work as well. And a good friend who works at a machine shop, so I can get fine machining done once in a while (the GG1 wheels for example are blackened CNC machined steel - extremely nice. )

Getting parts is getting tougher - thanks to Harry Hennings for all that he is doing. His suppliers are getting older too, and MTH is rapidly losing interest in standard gauge so parts are becoming more scarce - I pick them up as I can, especially Bild A Loco motors and the fine motors I'll use for the GG1's and other locos. And I typically build these locos and cars one set at a time, because each buyer usually wants something slightly different and I'm glad to customize to an extent.

Anybody got a medium sized milling machine they want to unload within a couple of hundred miles of South Jersey?

Jim

 

Jim Waterman

Lee Lines Limited

Custom Built Standard Gauge

 

A HAAS VF1 or minimill might be an affordable option. The little lathe and minimill used to start around 15k but thats been several years ago. One of those machines would be handy to attempt some pattern making as Harry discussed. If a good used machine could be purchased for 20k for example, add another 5-10k for tooling and you would need to make half a dozen of those tools using the 5k wheel example as a reference. It could pay for itself quickly in that sense but still it is a spendy outlay for a hobbist.  That said it could also be used to make cnc detail sheet metal stamping dies and other stuff. Downsides are it is big would need 480 3pf probably and that up front cost aint cheap. One interesting prospect might be would or could Harry use his casting machines to make castings for others using molds made or supplied by the others?  That might help two parties get some stuff made and more cheaply over all but of course would add several situational and  logistics challenges.

Dennis Holler If its old and broke, I like it

BlueComet400 posted:
navy.seal posted:
riki posted:

As far as I know. Jim does not do metal Tinplate.

If Jim doesn't do tinplate, how would you classify the ten Olympian Hiawatha cars, which Jim custom built and sold to me?  I would call them Modern Era Standard Gauge (MESG} tinplate.

MILW Olympian Hiawatha

Bob Nelson

Isn't mass-production one of the criteria for tinplate trains? Either way, Bob, that is one beautiful train. It blows away the detail of my JAD Hiawatha!

  John

John,

You are right!  The sides of the Waterman-built cars are detailed.  In fact, they are "spot-on" having been patterned on the original Olympian Hiawatha drawings.  However, the roofs and ends were not patterned after the original drawings as the same parts were used on all ten cars even when there were significant differences.   For example, the diner car, which should have had several vents installed over the kitchen has none.  In fact, the roof casting used on all 10 cars is the same, though it was cut-down in length for the shorter RPO and dormitory cars.  That said, unless you are a "rivet-counter" and I'm not, it's unlikely you would notice these prototypical errors. 

BOTTOM LINE:  IMHO, Jim Waterman did a super job in the fabrication of my 10 Olympian Hiawatha cars and I would recommend him to anyone wanting "customized" Standard Gauge cars built by a true craftsman!

Bob Nelson

Dennis Holler posted:

Jim, I see a couple of HAAS mini mills listed in NY for 12.5-13.5k. They are nice machines. I’ve only used a VF-1 but it was  really nice. Looks like starting price for a brand new one is about 31k plus options.

Thanks Dennis  - kind of out of my league, was thinking more like a used Bridgeport with shorter bed and adding digital readouts or maybe even a CNC kit.  Have a friend who has one stored, probably more like $1K, then some $ for tooling.  Just need to find space to put it and work the 3 phase issue.

Jim

Jim Waterman

Lee Lines Limited

Custom Built Standard Gauge

 

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