Entry Level?

You are always going to get those who have an opinion about your way of doing things.  Opinions are like a certain part of the human body.  Everyone has one.  So do your thing the way you would like to.  

Over on G Scale Central there is "RULE-8".  It states that it's your railway, do it as you like.

Very true Dan, and I really like RULE-8.

What we are all experiencing is a tremendous amount of innovation in train control. It would be hard to classify LionChief as an entry level product line since it's the technically most sensible way to remotely control a train.

One nice thing about my "entry level" trains from the post war era is that they just keep running, and running, and......

It doesn't really bother me, Joe. I take that description as rather a type of shorthand to describe something of lesser cost and complexity, but which in no way implies lower quality.  Standards and expectations keep evolving, and looking back those "entry level" conventional units of today were often an uncomfortable stretch for most consumers of average means in the classic postwar years.  And I think we'd all agree those trains were certainly not considered entry level then!  You never know, though--maybe at some point I'll decide I've had enough of that description as well, and it will begin to irritate me.  Oh, the joys of being human...

  My roster doesn't have anything so new. My largest are a semi scale GG-1, a Berk (actually a Berk jr ) an E33 and a 2046 Hudson. And one of my favorites today is a starter loco I love to poke at for it's cheapness as delivered.  A dc RI dockside(5700?). After a bridge rectifier, weight, details, and some paint, it is loads of fun to run.... cab forward now too. 

 If it was nice from the get-go, I probably wouldn't love it so much.

   I'm always more attracted to the underdog it seems. So for me running a "starter" with a grin is a true badge of honor, not just a paper star... so what if it doubles as a target for others; it's not what I see, so I feel pity for those that can't.

   I also have a 2037(Adriatic, never actually produced in an American styled loco), DT&I switcher, and plastic motor Scout sets...a Kickapoo! (the most toyish bobber cars ever?)..( and talk about  paleing in comparison to the high end or modern, at least todays plastic motor frames wont shatter like when a plastic Scout is  dropped wrong.

BOB WALKER posted:

What we are all experiencing is a tremendous amount of innovation in train control. It would be hard to classify LionChief as an entry level product line since it's the technically most sensible way to remotely control a train.

   It is the least expensive "line" Lionel makes today makes today. Not trying to be mean here...but it IS entry level with Lionel now.

  Like it or not, it is what is is. Try to take pride in your stars, I do.

No big deal.  I'm into LC+ for the same reason: simplicity.  They already offered the SD60M in scale LC+.  So hopefully there will be more scale offerings.  The technology is coming on strong.  With advances in Bluetooth, you may see a day where Legacy is old news and everything is simply LC+ (or whatever they'll call it then).  Dare to dream.

I have everything from prewar to Legacy except Lion chief/Lionchief+ just could not get over ( in my thinking anyway ) that you take a great control system ( TMCC/Legacy ) and go backwards with the technology. Originally I have a system that I can run 98 engines on without having to change controllers, to I need a different controller to  operate each engine. To where now I think you can program it up to 5 or 6. It's still backwards in technology to me. I do thou see the goodness in them, for someone that wants a small layout around the Christmas tree or limited to space or for a child just learning about control for a train. And for those who like them, great for you, I hope you get all the use out of them you hoped for. I do not knock them or think of them as entry level trains. I do not see any conventional train as entry level either. I can set up my conventional trains to automatically throw the next switch in correct order from across the train table. I do not need all the electronics of today's systems  to do so.   

Tuscan Jim posted:

It doesn't really bother me, Joe. I take that description as rather a type of shorthand to describe something of lesser cost and complexity, but which in no way implies lower quality.  

Thanks Jim, I didn't think of entry level in that way. 

My roster is mainly 2 rail scale but I will always have a soft spot for Lionel 1938-41 and early postwar stuff.  I think the new LionChief stuff is great and would not consider it entry level by any means. Sure, it is easier to operate than the Legacy products so younger people can have fun with it but for folks with smaller, more traditional sized pikes, the LC engines are perfect for any skill level. The universal remote allows simultaneous three locomotive operation plus really neat sounds.  For people with the "old stand by" 4x8' layout, this is more than adequate.  Kudos to Lionel for keeping it simple AND fun!

If I was going to build a 3 rail pike again, I would definitely consider LC and I have been in this hobby for 45 years or more!

Mike

Thanks for all the responses. The term entry level has a very negative connotation to me. It's like the difference between the words plan and scheme. Scheme has a negative, underhanded connotation like Wylie Coyote scheming to capture Road Runner. I enjoy my trains and don't really care what anyone else thinks but I just get irritated when I hear that term applied to $300 diesel and $400 steam locomotives. 

I think it boils down to what you most like about trains.

For me there are several priorities.

The first always leads to a peak experience: to run my trains with my 6 year old grandaughter. The LC+ remote unit is a big hit with her. The way I,  and many of you, loved having our hands on the ZW throttle, feeling the power that we craved as little kids, is the way my grandaughter feels turning the knob and pressing the whistle button on the LC+ remote. I absolutely love to watch and make videos of my grandaughter doing this.

Another priority: ruggedness and reliability. So far so good with LC+, at least during the 1 year warranty. Lionel has been very good to me during the warranty period, correcting a couple of problems promptly, and it didn't cost me a penny. However, Postwar during the early 1950s is king when it comes to ruggedness and reliability IMO.

Fun and relaxation. Too complex an operating system makes me a little anxious. I have some features on my modern trains that I rarely use. I'm a meat and potatoes operator: run the trains, do some switching,  blow the whistle/horn, park the train on one of my 8 sidings, and move another on to the main line. I can run 2 trains independently on my layout, but rarely do. One at a time is just fine with me. Keeping things simple relaxes me, and relaxation is very important. LC+ gets an A+ from me when it comes to fun and relaxation. So does early 1950s Postwar.

Posting photos and videos of my trains and layout on this Forum. LC+ is very photogenic IMO.

Affordability: this is very important to me, actually it's a necessity. LC+ gets as A, a very good grade, but early 1950s Postwar gets an A+.

Creativity: this priority is satisfied mainly from scenery, solving problems on the layout and with the trains, rearranging things a little on the layout, and posting on the Forum. LC+ enhances my creativity together with all my other trains, the layout and the Forum.

Arnold

Country Joe posted:

Thanks for all the responses. The term entry level has a very negative connotation to me. It's like the difference between the words plan and scheme. Scheme has a negative, underhanded connotation like Wylie Coyote scheming to capture Road Runner. I enjoy my trains and don't really care what anyone else thinks but I just get irritated when I hear that term applied to $300 diesel and $400 steam locomotives. 

Depends on whether you use scheme as a noun or a verb.  Used as a noun it means:

a large-scale systematic plan or arrangement for attaining some particular object or putting a particular idea into effect.

The way Railway Post Office clerks set up their sorting was referred to as "schemes..."

Railroad equipment have paint "schemes..."

etc...

Rusty

Joe B.,

As a model railroader for 68 years, it is obvious that you have made your decisions based on knowledge, experience, personal preferences and what is best for you. In my opinion, any criticism of someone's personal approach to model railroading is always unwarranted and unjustified. And it is patently ridiculous for anyone to describe you as an entry level model railroader. Operating a layout with LC/LC+ remote controllers is a very sensible, modern and practical way to operate your trains without the expense and problems that Legacy/DCS users often seem to encounter. If you enjoy what you're doing, that's the only thing that matters. I say this as someone who has only bought and run scale-sized O gauge trains conventionally since I re-entered the hobby twenty-one years ago.

MELGAR

You will find these discussions in just about any hobby.  In addition to trains, I also play guitar..some of them are very expensive..some not as much. But, they are all good and usable instruments.                                                                                                                                        With trains, I have a few modern ones but prefer tinkering with pre and postwar.  Enjoyment for me is found in keeping these classics running and have even upgraded old transformers.   I was a lone wolf but it's fun hanging out here and getting a different perspective on what others are doing or have done.

My advice....do what you want and enjoy what you like.     Fendermain

Couple things, first to the main question, I think the entry level term is used more for regular LionChief sets and it does a pretty good job describing them.  a $100-300 complete set is pretty inexpensive, as far as O gauge goes.  additionally, these sets are basic affairs with cheaply made parts and engines not designed to be particularly robust.  They are children's toys or talking pieces for folks not really into model trains, for the most part.  

Lion Chief Plus, on the other hand is pretty much taking the quality of the tmcc semi-scale products and putting an updated and less expensive control system in it.  they are fairly good quality products rivaling the top end products of decades past.  These are not entry level, but instead take on the role of the main stable for many folks.  For me there is no difference in someone that runs LC+, Post war, or TMCC engines as far as their commitment to the hobby. 

Second thing, It upsets me that people still thing of LC/+ as a downgrade on technology.  The actual tech at the heart of legacy is the same tech used for x10 home automation in the 1970's.  LC/+ offers less features only because it was designed to be simpler.  You can already see the model shifting from the outdated system in legacy to bluetooth, the same tech as LC, and I suspect the next full command system will do away with the antiquated track signal entirely.  This entire argument is sort of like saying your new computer is worse than the one in Applo 11 because it won't get you to the moon.  It wasn't designed to.  

Are you really offended by someone characterizing LionChief Plus engines as "entry level"?

So that others can avoid offending someone about their trains, what would you prefer them to be called?

Don

rtraincollector posted:

I have everything from prewar to Legacy except Lion chief/Lionchief+ just could not get over ( in my thinking anyway ) that you take a great control system ( TMCC/Legacy ) and go backwards with the technology.

Don't confuse simplicity for a lack of technological innovation. Are the  Lionchief and Lionchief Plus control systems simpler to use and less featured than  than TMCC and Legacy? Without a doubt they are. However that simplicity is made possible by technology that is newer and more advanced than those used in the TMCC and Legacy systems. (Of course, the Legacy system is taking advantage of technological advances, but it is based on older, less-advanced technology than LC/LC+.)

To the original poster, I'm not aware of people calling Lionchief Plus entry-level. It certainly isn't marketed as such by Lionel. OTH, Lionchief sets are definitely entry-level, as others have pointed out. That doesn't mean, though, that an experienced model railroader can't acquire and enjoy them.

I'm a converted post war/traditional sized train guy who was bit by the scale/hi rail bug. I don't have a view where my way is the only way to enjoy the hobby. That sounds too much like the scale guys who can't stand the third rail! There's a guy at the Syracuse NY train show who sets up a Christmas layout on two tables and runs 027 trains at break neck speed around and around all day both days and I sincerely enjoy his passion to the point where I look for him every year I go. A saying I've adopted is "No person should place their values on another person's enjoyment"! The only time I may have referred to LC+ or starter sets as 'entry level' is when someone comes into my office and wants a recommendation for getting that first train set for them or their kids. I certainly wouldn't recommend a Vision Niagara in these scenarios.