Frustrated With Whistle

If you more experienced folks can figure this out, I'd be obliged.

I took apart a completely rusty and non-functional 2466W whistle tender. It is now rehabilitated so that the trucks and rollers perform beautifully, I rewired everything,  the relay works well, and the armature spins like a hero. I plugged up all the air gaps from replacing the backplate to install a new bearing, so there is no air loss from the seams. The only problem is

the darn thing won't whistle!

The armature spins rapidly and I can hear the brushes on the commutator give that dentist's drill effect, but no whistle! I don't have anything left to fix. It's fixed and runs, except it doesn't whistle.

Any thoughts from the brain trust ?

Thanks for your help!

Pete

Pete F.

Mahwah, NJ

TCA# 18-73568

Original Post
C W Burfle posted:

Did you try blowing into the opening on the backplate? If the whistle doesn't sound then you have one or more of the following:

Clogged chamber, leaky cover, or obstructed openings

 

C.W. when I blow in the back nothing happens. I had the backplate off and thoroughly cleaned the chambers. The openings are unobstructed, and  after I reattached the backplate I sealed it with Sugru putty cement to eliminate air loss.

Pete F.

Mahwah, NJ

TCA# 18-73568

C.W. when I blow in the back nothing happens. I had the backplate off and thoroughly cleaned the chambers. The openings are unobstructed, and  after I reattached the backplate I sealed it with Sugru putty cement to eliminate air loss.

Any putty cement in the rectangular openings?

If it won't produce sound when you blow into it, it will not produce sound when running.

C.W. Burfle

If blowing in it won't "toot" it, I think the reed alignment might be bad from agressive cleaning

 Feel the airflow amount from the reed port. Direction o.k.? Is the impeller close enough to the intake, a hair gap is needed, too much and chamber air is spun vs a draw from outside.

Does the whistle chime then "tweet out" (too much air) or never chimes? Never? Try to cover a small portion of the port with finger/tape (try the short length then along the high side of the port (non beveled). Reducing the port size reduces air needs. If changing the port size doesn't give sound, I'd have to think the reed's beveled angle was filed on or something.

To rule out a weak rpm motor & lungs both, try a vacuum's blower

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





Chuck Sartor posted:

Looks like your wiring is correct. Can you make a short video of it operating. It sounds like a air leak now, but if the back side is sealed, I'm not sure where.

Sure. Here is the video, Chuck:

Pete F.

Mahwah, NJ

TCA# 18-73568

Attachments

Videos (1)
2466W Non Whistling Whistle

In addition to external air leaks, I think internal passage to passage leaks can also impact the operation of the whistle. You might want to take the rear cover off again and start with a new fresh gasket. Then be sure all the pins get pressed back in with even pressure to avoid any leaks, internal and external. I prefer the earlier screw on covers. Much easier to get uniform pressure. 

David Johnston posted:

In addition to external air leaks, I think internal passage to passage leaks can also impact the operation of the whistle. You might want to take the rear cover off again and start with a new fresh gasket. Then be sure all the pins get pressed back in with even pressure to avoid any leaks, internal and external. I prefer the earlier screw on covers. Much easier to get uniform pressure. 

Thanks, David! I did replace the gasket with a fresh one. The trouble with the pins is that some go back in too easily (and fall out again easily) while others require a jackhammer to re-seat. This whistle does not have threaded grooves to seat screws instead of the pins.I wish it did!

Pete F.

Mahwah, NJ

TCA# 18-73568

hcsader when on track testing and looking from the brushplate side testing it make sure the motor is spinning counter clockwise . That is a must and if it is spinning clockwise it will spin and spin making no noise.

How do i know is because i have serviced some of the many i have and resoldered the wire wrong and i called myself names after looking in Greenbergs operating manual in the tender section and realized motor was spinning the wrong way .

It did sound just like yours in your video.

 

 

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The wiring does look correct thats what i had thought on mine regardless see if it is running counter clock wise if so like Chuck said look at the seal for air leaks or reseal.

One other thing check the solder joints or remelt them to make sure there good as well.

One other thing i read in the manual is the impeller slipping on its shaft but never have experienced that in all the years with tenders.

 

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The impeller is tight to the spindle and spinning well, but the air must not be going through the whistle chambers. There is no external air loss. I sealed every metal seam with Sugru. So the air loss must be internal, but where? I put in a new bearing and a new ball bearing (WS-106 and WS-107). Could the ball bearing seated inside the bearing against the armature spindle be pushing the impeller too far towards the brushplate? Isn't the ball a design necessity?

Pete F.

Mahwah, NJ

TCA# 18-73568

Dieseler posted:

hcsader when on track testing and looking from the brushplate side testing it make sure the motor is spinning counter clockwise . That is a must and if it is spinning clockwise it will spin and spin making no noise.

How do i know is because i have serviced some of the many i have and resoldered the wire wrong and i called myself names after looking in Greenbergs operating manual in the tender section and realized motor was spinning the wrong way .

It did sound just like yours in your video.

 

Thanks Dieseler. Which wires do I reverse to reverse test the armature spin?

Pete F.

Mahwah, NJ

TCA# 18-73568

You will need to straighten the front truck, too. I still say you ( the whistle,that is ) are leaking at the seams. Once the factory seal is broken by taking the back plate off, it is very difficult to reseal, as the pins that hold the back cover on are all pressed in at the same time by a jig at the factory.

Hcsader CW is correct after i saw your 2nd picture of wiring.

If you want to see if motor spins as it should counter clockwise it is easier to put back on track activate whistle and observe from the top which way the armature is spinning. If whistle button is near you to otherwise  just apply 12 volts to track and push up on relay plate using toothpick or with finger gently push down on the little tab located on the bottom in the back of the relay it will then activate.

Also i believe CW is correct and since wires are correct its probably still leaking air.

 

 

 

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So the air loss must be internal, but where

There are "walls" inside partitioning off the the required chambers.
I've cut my own gaskets using blotter paper (is it still available?)
And I am fairly certain I've seen reproduction gaskets (try Train Tender)
I have never used a putty or other sealant. I also wonder whether you have excess sealant inside that has altered the characteristics of the chambers and passages, killing the sound.

 

C.W. Burfle
C W Burfle posted:

So the air loss must be internal, but where

There are "walls" inside partitioning off the the required chambers.
I've cut my own gaskets using blotter paper (is it still available?)
And I am fairly certain I've seen reproduction gaskets (try Train Tender)
I have never used a putty or other sealant. I also wonder whether you have excess sealant inside that has altered the characteristics of the chambers and passages, killing the sound.

 

Good points, C.W.!   I did indeed replace the gasket with a new one from Train Tender. The sealant was applied in small amounts externally  after (obviously) the backplate was secured. Applying the sealant has not altered the problem one bit.

I will take a look at the armature rotation direction. If it is spinning clockwise, then I will disassemble the bugger and start again from scratch. But by gum that whistle is gonna sound if I have to stick a bird inside it with electrodes on its behind.

Pete F.

Mahwah, NJ

TCA# 18-73568

HCSader73 posted:
C W Burfle posted:

So the air loss must be internal, but where

There are "walls" inside partitioning off the the required chambers.
I've cut my own gaskets using blotter paper (is it still available?)
And I am fairly certain I've seen reproduction gaskets (try Train Tender)
I have never used a putty or other sealant. I also wonder whether you have excess sealant inside that has altered the characteristics of the chambers and passages, killing the sound.

 

Good points, C.W.!   I did indeed replace the gasket with a new one from Train Tender. The sealant was applied in small amounts externally  after (obviously) the backplate was secured. Applying the sealant has not altered the problem one bit.

I will take a look at the armature rotation direction. If it is spinning clockwise, then I will disassemble the bugger and start again from scratch. But by gum that whistle is gonna sound if I have to stick a bird inside it with electrodes on its behind.

  Great idea...

From the looks of the wiring it should be spinning in proper direction but would check anyways .Some years back bought a tender off the bay and it did similar to yours as armature spun well after cleaning the brushes and commutator only to find a piece of tissue stuffed in the sound box .

It was probably stuffed in there by a child long ago as we sometimes forget these were played with by children mostly.

Surely you cleaned the brushes to remove any residue and cleaned the armature commutator plate so it will spin fast enough to generate sound only thing left would be that sound box  as CW mentioned.

 

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At this juncture, and with my OCD, I would be SO frustrated, I would toss the whistle mechanism (minus the relay which obviously works) and purchase a restored motor/whistle from a reputable dealer like Hennings! You went the commendable "extra mile" and should have no regrets! :-)

vita sine litteris mors est  (Seneca)

Dieseler posted:

From the looks of the wiring it should be spinning in proper direction but would check anyways .Some years back bought a tender off the bay and it did similar to yours as armature spun well after cleaning the brushes and commutator only to find a piece of tissue stuffed in the sound box .

It was probably stuffed in there by a child long ago as we sometimes forget these were played with by children mostly.

Surely you cleaned the brushes to remove any residue and cleaned the armature commutator plate so it will spin fast enough to generate sound only thing left would be that sound box  as CW mentioned.

Yup, Dieseler, it is spinning counter clockwise, so it has to be an internal alignment issue with internal air leaks. 

Time to take it all apart and start over. At least it isn’t rusty any more

Pete F.

Mahwah, NJ

TCA# 18-73568

HCSADER73

for the sake of try it why not just remove motor assembly suck in full air into lungs and blow into air chamber if it sounds off look for issues elsewhere if no sound then pull it apart.

you say some pins are loose as in drops in easily? if so that might be the entire issue  where the plate is not sealed allowing air to go where ever it wants to. I would try disassembly of air chamber and use sealer again re-install pins and use a clamp and snug plate to air chamber and let it sit overnight. worth a try at this point nothing to lose and everything to gain I have used auto silicone gasket sealer with good results and you can still take it apart if needed.

you must be a taurus as bulls never give up!

out of curiosity can't the holes that pins go into be tapped for a screw?

StPaul

C W BURFLE was thinking it had to come off to test my Idea am assuming I kinda sorta goofed.

anyone else notice the picture showing top view of whistle chamber plate is bent upwards if same inside to internal seal this might be cause of no whistle sound? 

just thinking out of the box as that plate should be straight and smooth all the way around including the internal surfaces

StPaul

  I think an internal leak would need to be a big one that allowed a reversed airflow direction across the reed port.

  If air is flowing out of the port, correct direction, and it is enough air, the reed port is the issue. Mess with the side of the opening with a card or something. You need to adjust your mouth to whistle based on how much air you blow too A smaller port(blocked) will accelerate the flow and change pitch, but you have to start the sound before you can tune it.

Know anyone who plays clarinette, flute, etc?  Ask them their opinion on reed adjustment

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





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