GGD Southern Crescent Passenger Train

Thanks Dave! I think the 8 car consist you outlined in the spreadsheet is perfect! I am definitely hoping for W of A, AWP, and L&N cars to be available as add ons. I would like to see the 14/4 sleeper produced. Having both name plates included for the obs car would be really nice, and now that you mention it, that might be an option for all cars to be able to do the non Southern road names. Scott could just sell Southern cars, but in each box include name plates for one or two of the other railroads. I am definitely fine forgoing the full width diaphragms.

In regards to the inclusion of an observation car, the question is, if the car is dropped all together, would people rather have a 70s era consist with black roofs. Obviously the majority of the photos of the train come from these late years. This time period also allows the use of green E8s and you could use the Southern dome car Lionel offered a year or so ago.
I have already placed my order and look forward to whatever the end result is, but these are my thoughts on it.

As a side note, I'm also planning on getting a pair of F units repainted with one as W of A 503 and one as AWP 551 since there are many photos of that pair pulling the train through south Alabama.

@Will Ebbert posted:

"In regards to the inclusion of an observation car, the question is, if the car is dropped all together, would people rather have a 70s era consist with black roofs. Obviously the majority of the photos of the train come from these late years. This time period also allows the use of green E8s and you could use the Southern dome car Lionel offered a year or so ago."

Interesting question on the roofs. While the black roofs would set it apart from other silver roofed streamliners, watching an all stainless finish Budd streamliner glide around a layout does look spectacular.

I currently have a reservation in for a full set plus extras (whatever they end up becoming). I would be ok with either roof color or OBS car but would hope to see some extra cars in FEC or NYC. Those are just my choices and the group votes could make for a very interesting constant based on which roads individuals chose to model.

Thank you for sharing such a wonderful resource for the Crescent and add-on cars. With this data and Scott's keen eye it should become a great set to own!

@Will Ebbert posted:

Thanks Dave! I think the 8 car consist you outlined in the spreadsheet is perfect! I am definitely hoping for W of A, AWP, and L&N cars to be available as add ons. I would like to see the 14/4 sleeper produced. Having both name plates included for the obs car would be really nice, and now that you mention it, that might be an option for all cars to be able to do the non Southern road names. Scott could just sell Southern cars, but in each box include name plates for one or two of the other railroads. I am definitely fine forgoing the full width diaphragms.

In regards to the inclusion of an observation car, the question is, if the car is dropped all together, would people rather have a 70s era consist with black roofs. Obviously the majority of the photos of the train come from these late years. This time period also allows the use of green E8s and you could use the Southern dome car Lionel offered a year or so ago.
I have already placed my order and look forward to whatever the end result is, but these are my thoughts on it.

As a side note, I'm also planning on getting a pair of F units repainted with one as W of A 503 and one as AWP 551 since there are many photos of that pair pulling the train through south Alabama.

You bring up some interesting ideas.

First, I think if Scott is able to sell enough 8-car sets and SOU add-on cars to meet the minimum building requirement, and doesn't get enough orders for any other roads in add-ons, then perhaps thats something he could consider.  I obviously don't speak for him.  There may also be a roadblock in that the factory is thinking its a part and may not allow Scott to produce interchangeable name plates. I guess it all depends on if there are enough email requests for the other roads to get added to the reservation page, and then to see those roads get enough reservations to be made.

Second, as for the roof color, I would still leave them stainless as that would maximize the in-service lifespan these cars had from the 50's all the way up until about 1971/1972.  Not every car got a black roof at the same time. It's also much easier to put 4 pieces of blue tape and spray a black roof than it is to take a black roof and backdate the roof with a color that actually matches the carbody. :-)

That will look pretty neat pulling the Crescent. The WofA had a neat blue/silver (gray?) scheme on their locomotives. You know what else would look cool?  Some Pennsy modelers buying this train and putting it behind GG1's.  This train ran all the way from New York City Penn Station down to New Orleans and it would get switched at Washington DC for some electric power.

I also look forward and will make do with whatever is produced.

The primary color in the locomotives in the early years was black, green cane around in the 60s. The secondary color many people assume to be white. Southern called it "imitation aluminum" and it definitely has a metallic gray shade to it.

And you're definitely right about being able to paint the roofs black. I have considered that possibility myself.

@vash44 posted:

I currently have a reservation in for a full set plus extras (whatever they end up becoming). I would be ok with either roof color or OBS car but would hope to see some extra cars in FEC or NYC. Those are just my choices and the group votes could make for a very interesting constant based on which roads individuals chose to model.

Thank you for sharing such a wonderful resource for the Crescent and add-on cars. With this data and Scott's keen eye it should become a great set to own!

Just make sure Scott is aware of your desire for FEC and NYC cars via an email.  Just note that those cars ran on the Royal Palm and technically not on the Crescent, but I don't see why Scott couldn't make those cars too if he got enough orders to justify them.

@Will Ebbert posted:

The primary color in the locomotives in the early years was black, green cane around in the 60s. The secondary color many people assume to be white. Southern called it "imitation aluminum" and it definitely has a metallic gray shade to it.

And you're definitely right about being able to paint the roofs black. I have considered that possibility myself.

I was referring to the WofA unit, not the Green or Black Tuxedo units.  Yes, both black and green came in two separate schemes decades apart, which always makes things difficult in modeling, except when it comes to second generation diesels and beyond. I think Scott's and even MTH's rendition of the imitation aluminum is really good.

@DaveJfr0 posted:

I was referring to the WofA unit, not the Green or Black Tuxedo units.  Yes, both black and green came in two separate schemes decades apart, which always makes things difficult in modeling, except when it comes to second generation diesels and beyond. I think Scott's and even MTH's rendition of the imitation aluminum is really good.

Oh my mistake. Yes it's a cool scheme.

As with all GGD aluminum streamlined cars, it is about the correct extrusion for the car.  If there are cars that share the same extrusions as the Crescent, the rest is easy.  Windows are done by CNC and interiors if similar can can work across multiple roads.  For example, the Congressional and the Sunset limited shared the same Budd extrusions making both trains possible.  It is about time for a Crescent.  I rode the train in 1973 prior to Amtrak assuming the train and even though I was 4, I still remember the quality of service and the dome cars.  So many good locomotives made for it (3rd Rail being the best of course!) and no accurate cars too pull.

@GG1 4877 posted:

  So many good locomotives made for it (3rd Rail being the best of course!) and no accurate cars too pull.

That has always been what stopped me from getting some nice Southern passenger power. As soon as this set was announced though, I placed a reservation for the 8 car set and 2 or 3 add on cars as well as 4 Lionel Southern E8s.

Thinking that when the Southern ran the train in the 70s after Amtrak began, Southern E8s were in the Green colors . The nose of the engine was marked "Southern Crescent"

Lionels recent E8 set has this detail

As a Southern Railway fan, I am excited about this offering and I appreciate David and others that are doing the research to make these car as accurate as possible.  I ordered the 8 car set in early December and was fortunate to find a set of Lionel's new E8's to pull them with.  I was also really pleased with the Lionel units, especially that both units were powered.  I was also pleased that the color matched the E8's that Weaver offered in the 90's.  Except for the tanks on top, they look like they belong together.  I intend to remove the motors from the Weaver engines and make them dummies so that I can run four E8's pulling the consist.

Although I have been fascinated by trains my whole life and been into model trains for 61 years now, the only train trip I have ever taken was the Southern Crescent from Danville, Va to Washington, DC in 1978>  Although as I understand it, at that time, Amtrak had taken over the route but the engines, cars and personnel were still Southern.  I will never forget having breakfast with my two young sons in the dining car with its fabric table cloth and fresh cut flowers on the table.  The train was close to Charlottesville and there was a light snow on the hillside with cows grazing.  The food was freshly prepared and delicious.  On the way back, we were admiring the engines before boarding the train and the engineer invited my 8 year old son up into the cab.  he was thrilled!

Happy railroading,

Don

If Scott does announce extra cars one being decorated pennsylvania as a 10-6 sleeper, i would be in for it.

Btw Dave, you should have posted this in the 3Rail Scale Forum as Scott frequents and posts in that forum.

@DaveJfr0 posted:

You bring up some interesting ideas.

First, I think if Scott is able to sell enough 8-car sets and SOU add-on cars to meet the minimum building requirement, and doesn't get enough orders for any other roads in add-ons, then perhaps thats something he could consider.  I obviously don't speak for him.  There may also be a roadblock in that the factory is thinking its a part and may not allow Scott to produce interchangeable name plates. I guess it all depends on if there are enough email requests for the other roads to get added to the reservation page, and then to see those roads get enough reservations to be made.

Second, as for the roof color, I would still leave them stainless as that would maximize the in-service lifespan these cars had from the 50's all the way up until about 1971/1972.  Not every car got a black roof at the same time. It's also much easier to put 4 pieces of blue tape and spray a black roof than it is to take a black roof and backdate the roof with a color that actually matches the carbody. :-)

That will look pretty neat pulling the Crescent. The WofA had a neat blue/silver (gray?) scheme on their locomotives. You know what else would look cool?  Some Pennsy modelers buying this train and putting it behind GG1's.  This train ran all the way from New York City Penn Station down to New Orleans and it would get switched at Washington DC for some electric power.

I also look forward and will make do with whatever is produced.

I also prefer the stainless steel roof color.  Were the black painted roofs really only a 1970's change?  So, the roofs were unpainted stainless steel up until the early 1970's?  I know a lot of people look at black and white photos of stainless steel passenger cars and swear they have black roofs when they were really just dirty roofs!  It seems then that the roofs should be unpainted stainless steel, unless you are modeling a 1970's train.

Some photos attached from the PRR Technical and Historical volume covering Passenger car paint schemes. . Yhe book mentions in the late 1940s some 46 cars built for New York to Atlanta and New Orleans service were built to plan 4140. These were 10-6 sleepers . Southern had 29, PRR 8, L&N 2 FEC 5 cars , Atlanta and West poinrt 1 and Western of Alabama 1 car.

The 8 PRR cars were assigned names in the River series. PRR's normal naming for 10-6 cars were in the Rapids series. . The photo below shows Raritan River from about 1968. It has a black roof . I recall as a college student in the early 1960s seeing Southern cars at Sunnyside from the Number 7 elevated as it passed over Sunnyside and the Southern cars did have Black roofs. I believe equipment used in the 1970s version of Southern Crescent had black roofs.

Here is the painting guide illustration from the book for the 10-6s

and a list of PRR 10-6s in the River Series

I had bought the Lionel cars released a few years back. They have black roofs. The Lionel E-8 set is probably colored for 1970s service after Amtrak was formed. So a PRR lettered car in the consist would be a bit of fantasy from a time aspect

Another interesting thought for through cars on this train was the last of the transcontinental sleepers, the service started in 1968  with a through sleeper operating from San Francisco through LA to New Orleans on the Southern Pacific and then being carried by the Crescent from New Orleans to New York and later Boston . I believe this service lasted into the Amtrak era so it would be interesting to know if there were Amtrak 10-6s in the 1970s consists or would the car have always been a Southern badged car.

Although my model train focus is mainly on PRR trains in the early 1900s through the mid 1940s, I have enjoyed reading the informative posts about the various  Southern passenger trains. Interesting history on the passengers cars  and consists including PRR sleepers. I hope your collective enthusiasm for the GGD proposed Southern project is rewarded. BTW, photos of the engines and cars are great.

@LIRR Steamer posted:

Some photos attached from the PRR Technical and Historical volume covering Passenger car paint schemes. . Yhe book mentions in the late 1940s some 46 cars built for New York to Atlanta and New Orleans service were built to plan 4140. These were 10-6 sleepers . Southern had 29, PRR 8, L&N 2 FEC 5 cars , Atlanta and West poinrt 1 and Western of Alabama 1 car.

The 8 PRR cars were assigned names in the River series. PRR's normal naming for 10-6 cars were in the Rapids series. . The photo below shows Raritan River from about 1968. It has a black roof . I recall as a college student in the early 1960s seeing Southern cars at Sunnyside from the Number 7 elevated as it passed over Sunnyside and the Southern cars did have Black roofs. I believe equipment used in the 1970s version of Southern Crescent had black roofs.

 

Here is the painting guide illustration from the book for the 10-6s

and a list of PRR 10-6s in the River Series

I had bought the Lionel cars released a few years back. They have black roofs. The Lionel E-8 set is probably colored for 1970s service after Amtrak was formed. So a PRR lettered car in the consist would be a bit of fantasy from a time aspect

Another interesting thought for through cars on this train was the last of the transcontinental sleepers, the service started in 1968  with a through sleeper operating from San Francisco through LA to New Orleans on the Southern Pacific and then being carried by the Crescent from New Orleans to New York and later Boston . I believe this service lasted into the Amtrak era so it would be interesting to know if there were Amtrak 10-6s in the 1970s consists or would the car have always been a Southern badged car.

That black roof PRR car is from 1968?  If you check the website below, there is a photo of the Crescent from 1973 where only about half the cars have black roofs:

http://www.railphoto-art.org/c...s/lamb/group-four/#!

There is also a 1970 photo of a Southern passenger train on that same website where all of the cars appear to have unpainted stainless steel roofs.  Maybe stainless PRR cars had black roofs by the late 1960's, but Southern cars appear to have been still in the process of having the roofs painted black in 1973.

I did not buy those Lionel cars for that reason (and because they are plastic and incorrect generic car types).  The Lionel cars have the black roofs, so it seems they are only correct for modeling early 1970's or later.

The GGD cars will be aluminum (not plastic), be the correct car types, and hopefully will have silver (not black) roofs.

First off thank you Dave for all of your work in researching and being a booster for this.  Secondly I applaud any efforts to make authentic southern and SOUTHERN specific passenger cars available in O scale.

What concerns me is the idea that demand for southern specific passenger cars would be based on the reception for this particular offer.  There are a number of reasons why SOUTHERN RAILWAY fans might pass on this.  It is duplicating a train that came along at the end of SOUTHERN's steam era.  The cars are not appropriate for many of the lesser trains that graced SOUTHERN's rails during that period.  An eight car set is more train than many would want to buy.  Some of us have minimum mainline curves tighter than O-72.  That people like me are not the target market for this particular offer does not mean we are not in the market for southern specific passenger cars.

@Bill N posted:

First off thank you Dave for all of your work in researching and being a booster for this.  Secondly I applaud any efforts to make authentic southern and SOUTHERN specific passenger cars available in O scale.

What concerns me is the idea that demand for southern specific passenger cars would be based on the reception for this particular offer.  There are a number of reasons why SOUTHERN RAILWAY fans might pass on this.  It is duplicating a train that came along at the end of SOUTHERN's steam era.  The cars are not appropriate for many of the lesser trains that graced SOUTHERN's rails during that period.  An eight car set is more train than many would want to buy.  Some of us have minimum mainline curves tighter than O-72.  That people like me are not the target market for this particular offer does not mean we are not in the market for southern specific passenger cars.

I understand those concerns, but the only other scale lightweight Southern cars in O scale that I am aware of are the Lionel cars.  But they are plastic, generic cars, and they have black roofs, so are 1970's specific, apparently.  I have a nice set of K-Line aluminum 21" cars modified and re-lettered for Southern, so they are somewhat correct.  But it would be nice to have some very accurate cars.  Also, I think that a lot of people want complete train sets.  So, I think this is a good idea for GGD.  I hope they get made.

@DaveJfr0 posted:

Hi all,

I don't have any update on @sdmann's Southern Crescent Project.  I can see that there hasn't been an update on the GGD site, but the MP train doesn't look to be updated either, so I am thinking that doesn't necessarily mean bad news for us Southern modelers.   Hopefully the reservations are getting to a point at where its worth it as a business for Scott to continue.  (Glad to read that the SD40-2 project is still a go after all these years in limbo!)

In any case, I wanted to share some of what I provided him early on and to keep the discussion/interest in this train flowing in its own dedicated topic, similar to how the MP Eagle Train has its own topic by forum members. This topic hopefully will show current and perspective customers some additional information about the train that including additional add-on cars that could be done. The only way add-on's appear are if enough people email Scott to make it happen.  Also of note, everything below is my suggestion. Scott has the final say based on all customer input.

I don't post here often anymore, but did come across https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...passenger-set?page=2 after I did my research, so I imagine @Tom Morris, @Dj'sOgaugetrains, @Will Ebbert will be interested in reading and contributing to this thread. They seemed to have come to similar conclusions as my suggested consist.

First up, I provided Scott a potential roster to use, along with all of the foreign road add-on possibilities.  For Add-On cars, the SOU possibilities I suggested were limited at 3 each, and with most car names based on cars the most famous cars still exist today (or ended up in museums/historical societies).  The overall list was generated using information from the PCL and Official PS Library books, other books in my Southern Railway library, and also discussing this specific train with several ex-Southern professionals who are considered experts on this topic.

(Click on image to enlarge...forum shrinks it.)

As mentioned in the other post, the Crescent was a pool of cars from several railroads.  The train itself ran from New York City (Penn Station) all the way down to New Orleans.  The train itself would have been behind GG1's from Penn Station down to Washington, DC, when they slipped on SOU power.  I suggested Scott keep the train purely Southern and then offer other roads as add-on's for anyone who wanted those, including some cars that were made specifically for the Royal Palm, rather than the Crescent, but were of the same design.  Let's say the 5-Buf-Lng-Obs gets made (read on for why I even question it) and there are 20 people who would never purchase a Crescent, but want an NYC Royal Crest 5-Buf-Lng-Obs separate of the train itself, it can't hurt the project, right? Same goes for PRR 10/6 sleepers...which were identical to the SOU cars except for the “Pennsylvania” on the letterboards and the rivers were all in PRR’s territory. Inside, they were similar, but the PRR cars had slightly different fixtures in the roomettes and bedrooms.


As far as the 8-car consist itself, the only car I've suggested that probably shouldn't be there is the 14/4 sleeper, but I figured why not.  If model railroaders of the Southern ever want a 14/4, this is probably the only chance to ever have it made with the high quality that GGD provides and at a reasonable price.  If the add-on orders are poor for the 14/4 and/or the customer base doesn't want a 14/4 in the consist, then it can be removed in favor of another 10/6 sleeper or 52s coach.

Regardless of the 14/4 sleeper suggestion, there are unfortunately some other equally important decision points, which further influence the micro-era of even a "1950's Crescent". As the website says, overall customer feedback should dictate what is made. I wanted to highlight these decisions here, since it will greatly affect the overall appearance of the train. The re-equipped Crescent was officially inaugurated in March 1950, and below are three changes that should be discussed:

1. 5-Buf-Lng-Obs Royal Arch was renamed Luther Calvin Norris almost right away - in November 1950.  That means while you see so many pictures of the 5-Buf-Lng-Obs car with the Royal Arch nameplate, those photos were all taken during the first 9 months of its life. I have suggested that Scott either put both nameplates in the box, or have a way to hold the nameplates on with magnets, so if the 5-Buf-Lng-Obs is made, customers can choose which name to use.  The same applies to the WofA's Royal Palace, which was renamed Charles A. Wickersham in 9/1952 (if that add-on car was to be made).
2. The 5-Buf-Lng-Obs cars only lasted 6 years in service and were converted to 11DBR sleepers, which appeared in 9/58. If the majority of modelers actually want to model this train (or others) in 1958 or later, then the 11DBR is the better car to tool instead of the 5-Buf-Lng-Obs car. There is really no easy way to offer both without paying extra for the tooling.  Perhaps whichever car is not in the 8-car consist, can be made as a very special car at an obviously higher price similar to how Scott is doing the 3/4 SP dome cars. (In the neighborhood of $700 each).
3. Full-width diaphragms were removed within 1-2 years of original service. I have suggested that to maximize the target market of the train, and ensure easier operational aspects around actually running the train (on say O-72 for some), to forego full-width diaphragms.  Obviously if the majority of customers want the March 1950 train exactly as it was at inauguration, then there should be full width diaphragms.  I would still vouch hard if that was to case, to make it possible to remove them for those who wants to model 1952 or later, and/or help those thathave issues negotiating curves with them.

I provided Scott some other files that should be useful for producing these cars.  AFAIK, several folks have car plans beyond the PCL/PS books, so Scott should be all set there.

My thoughts:
From what I understand, it took awhile for the SAL Silver Meteor to get to critical mass.  It will be interesting to see if the Southern Crescent can acquire sufficient interest to be made at all.  If it does get enough interest, it will be more interesting to see if there is sufficient interest in non-Southern add-on cars.  I have added another three SOU 52s coaches and three SOU 10/6 sleepers to my order to help support the project to get made.  Sure beats trying to make any of these cars from scratch.

Hopefully there will be a good tracking mechanism for customers to help Scott decide on the four main decision points above:

1. 14/4 or not?
2. OBS or 11DBR? (1950-1956 or 1958+)
3. If OBS, Royal Arch or Luther Calvin Norris (if not both)? (3/1950-11/1950 or 11/1950+)
4. Full Width Diaphragms or not (if not both)? (1950-1952)
   
   

I'm currently for:

1. Yes
2. 11DBR
3. N/A (Royal Arch if not both)
4. No FWD (if not both)

Southern customers are spread across the modeling spectrum. It will be interesting to see what is desired at the end of the day by who is actually trying to purchase these, but for anyone on the fence, or that has recently made Lionel, MTH, 3rd Rail or even a Key Green E8 consist, they'll want to match my answers above and get in on what will be an amazing train to own.  If one is unfamiliar with GGD quality, just look at high quality finish of recently finished projects: http://www.goldengatedepot.com/reservation.html

I will offer my services to Scott to review the CAD and artwork if we're lucky enough to have this train made. For O-scale, this is once in a lifetime and will be worth every penny.

I would like to have the observation car and silver roofs so that I could pull it with an E6 set.  Lionel (AA) and MTH (ABA) made E6 sets, I think 3rd Rail did too.  MTH also made DL109/DL110 sets in the same 1940's-early 1950's paint scheme.  Here is an E6 photo posted by another forum member a couple of years ago:

I'm fine with whatever color roof people prefer. The reason Southern painted them black in later years is they were very hard to keep clean.

@Jtrain posted:

That black roof PRR car is from 1968?  If you check the website below, there is a photo of the Crescent from 1973 where only about half the cars have black roofs:

http://www.railphoto-art.org/c...s/lamb/group-four/#!

There is also a 1970 photo of a Southern passenger train on that same website where all of the cars appear to have unpainted stainless steel roofs.  Maybe stainless PRR cars had black roofs by the late 1960's, but Southern cars appear to have been still in the process of having the roofs painted black in 1973.

I did not buy those Lionel cars for that reason (and because they are plastic and incorrect generic car types).  The Lionel cars have the black roofs, so it seems they are only correct for modeling early 1970's or later.

The GGD cars will be aluminum (not plastic), be the correct car types, and hopefully will have silver (not black) roofs.

Thanks for the link. I will say that Southern Cars that I saw in Sunnyside Yard usually had black roofs. This doesn't mean that all Southern cars had black roofs at the time but there were quite a few based on observation.

I think that Golden Gates offering will be a good opportunity for those who would like to have a Southern lightweight passenger train . I have the Lionel cars and they work for me.

@LIRR Steamer posted:

Thinking that when the Southern ran the train in the 70s after Amtrak began, Southern E8s were in the Green colors . The nose of the engine was marked "Southern Crescent"

Lionels recent E8 set has this detail

Lionel did a decent job, depending on the road number. Biggest flaw I saw is the missing pipes between air tanks themselves and the roof.  The yellow handrails and dulux gold lettering signify later 70's, though I'm not exactly sure...maybe 1974-1978.  Horns and/or antennae may not be quite right either, but at least they were willing to make anything at all.

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Btw Dave, you should have posted this in the 3Rail Scale Forum as Scott frequents and posts in that forum.

As several folks have suggested here, I agree - I think at minimum, Scott should offer the PRR River series at minimum as add-on's.  They share the same tooling with the SOU 10-6 sleepers.  Of course, I guess enough folks need to email Scott that they want them before its added to the website.  Same goes for any of the other items I've documented in my spreadsheet.

As for 3RS/3R forum, yea that is probably a mistake and it should be in 3RS, but its up to the mods if they want to move it. Just don't delete it please. I tagged Scott, so he should see this either way.  Or hopefully reservations and emails grab his attention to this as well.  I know he's got a lot of projects in the iron, so hopefully the commentary here helps if the project hits the minimum needed.

@Jtrain posted:

I also prefer the stainless steel roof color.  Were the black painted roofs really only a 1970's change?  So, the roofs were unpainted stainless steel up until the early 1970's?  I know a lot of people look at black and white photos of stainless steel passenger cars and swear they have black roofs when they were really just dirty roofs!  It seems then that the roofs should be unpainted stainless steel, unless you are modeling a 1970's train.

Let me go digging a little bit more, but AFAIK most of the repainting (and addition of heralds by the doors) was done in the early 70's. I'm sure there were exceptions, as goes with most everything on the SOU.

I think the general consensus will be to stick with stainless.  I'll buy the spray paint for those who want them black. Herald decals are another story.

@pennsynut posted:

Although my model train focus is mainly on PRR trains in the early 1900s through the mid 1940s, I have enjoyed reading the informative posts about the various  Southern passenger trains. Interesting history on the passengers cars  and consists including PRR sleepers. I hope your collective enthusiasm for the GGD proposed Southern project is rewarded. BTW, photos of the engines and cars are great.

Thanks for following. I am not allowed to post any links to my blog here (despite me not using it for any sort of revenue stream), otherwise I'd say I've had images of my 3rd Rail E8's (and other SOU gear) on my blog for years now.

@Bill N posted:

First off thank you Dave for all of your work in researching and being a booster for this.  Secondly I applaud any efforts to make authentic southern and SOUTHERN specific passenger cars available in O scale.

What concerns me is the idea that demand for southern specific passenger cars would be based on the reception for this particular offer.  There are a number of reasons why SOUTHERN RAILWAY fans might pass on this.  It is duplicating a train that came along at the end of SOUTHERN's steam era.  The cars are not appropriate for many of the lesser trains that graced SOUTHERN's rails during that period.  An eight car set is more train than many would want to buy.  Some of us have minimum mainline curves tighter than O-72.  That people like me are not the target market for this particular offer does not mean we are not in the market for southern specific passenger cars.

I personally think there is demand for earlier pre-war cars too for trains like the Tennessean.  They unfortunately ran totally different cars than this train, so its really hard to cross-use anything between the two.  I think regardless of the outcome of the Crescent, that Scott should look at a Tennessean or similar train sometime in the near future.

Interestingly enough, add one or two more car types, and you could actually turn this Crescent offering into a Peach Queen, and a few of the other lesser known trains that Southern ran from the 50's into the 60's/very early 70's.

Eight cars is ironically not a complete Crescent, but its O-scale, so there are space limitations due to size. It's tough, but I think that the economics of the situation requires an 8-car train. It's nothing against the Southern market, but its everything Scott has produced recently, B&O, NP, MOPAC, and even ATSF.  As for non-scale length cars, I'm not sure anyone can help you there from a RTR standpoint.  MTH cars are not accurate and I'm not sure if K-line ever did 18" lightweight cars that were truly representative of anything the Southern had.  I'm not sure Lionel is going to do "prototype" stainless 18" cars anymore.  They seem to be on 21" bandwagon too, at least for new tooling. That new Lionel Rio Grande Ski Train is super cool, but not something I model.

@Jtrain posted:

I understand those concerns, but the only other scale lightweight Southern cars in O scale that I am aware of are the Lionel cars.  But they are plastic, generic cars, and they have black roofs, so are 1970's specific, apparently.  I have a nice set of K-Line aluminum 21" cars modified and re-lettered for Southern, so they are somewhat correct.  But it would be nice to have some very accurate cars.  Also, I think that a lot of people want complete train sets.  So, I think this is a good idea for GGD.  I hope they get made.

Yep, I was very disappointed when Lionel took their NYC Empire State Express and slapped a few other roads on the same tooling, including Southern.  Then the next catalog they made a bunch of new 21" car tooling for PRR, Conrail, and some others.  Oh well, that opens the gap to get this train made by Scott, if it all works out in the end.

@Jtrain posted:

I would like to have the observation car and silver roofs so that I could pull it with an E6 set.  Lionel (AA) and MTH (ABA) made E6 sets, I think 3rd Rail did too.  MTH also made DL109/DL110 sets in the same 1940's-early 1950's paint scheme.  Here is an E6 photo posted by another forum member a couple of years ago:

We will see how Scott wants to handle it and what the numbers look like I guess.

3rd Rail did do the E6's.  I didn't buy any, but I know because I was asked to review the artwork. Good thing, as some of the striping was horribly off on the A and B unit. I don't think Jonathan had a hand in that one though.

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Btw Dave, you should have posted this in the 3Rail Scale Forum as Scott frequents and posts in that forum.

I disagree!  I am glad David posted it here.  I have a "Hi Rail" type layout and I run scale sized equipment.  But I do not want to deal with Kadee couplers or scale wheels as so many on the 3Rail Scale forum seem to demand.  I only check that forum once or twice a week but look here two to three times per day.

This has been a great discussion and with 30 replies in less that 48 hours, it seems to be well received right where it is.

Thanks again David of posting here.

Happy railroading,

Don

I agree, this forum gets a lot more foot traffic so hopefully more people will see it and place orders to make this train happen.

Here it is crossing Lake Ponchatrain east of New Orleans

I almost hate to admit it, but until this thread I didn't realize that the Southern ran their 4 unit locomotive in this configuration!  Never too old to learn something new!

Well this train is surely welcome to Hi-Railers as much as it is 3RS or 2R. I think its time for something accurate for those who are in the market for 21" cars.

And if the train isn't made, at least Sam was able to see one of the nicer photos of the Crescent. (Which is also in the album below.)

I came across some other photos of interest, albeit it looks like 50's photos are hard to find online and only have several throughout my library.  Posting only links to abide by forum rules; I do not own any of these photos or media.

• Crescent behind a GG1 in 1972.  I took a look on google maps, person-view, and it actually does look like this is New Haven station in the background. I'm confused since that's another hour or so past Penn Station, NY.  They are indeed SOU coaches behind the GG1. Second coach looks to be a Budd coach with a black roof for those stuck on roofs.
• Photo of late 70's Crescent leaving what looks like Washington Union Station under the wires: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/247346204509217252/
• Third photo is a late 70's Crescent leaving DC, still under the wire.  Looks like only 3 A units on this one. http://capitollimited.blogspot...and-viscinity-5.html
• 1973 Crescent (note, gold leaf lettering and no yellow handrails, also dirty, but not late 70's dirty) https://www.pinterest.com/pin/233694668143226893/
• All sorts of interesting mid-late 70's photos of the Crescent.  Very good album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/...ms/72157685611545394
• YouTube video of NBC news story on the Southern Crescent in 1978 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJSW0cDTiJw  (You can see some car interior colors, including the 1602 or 1613 Dome. Also what a Nathan M5 sounded like on these. About 5:17 shows the ride of Lake Pontchartrain.)
• Not quite in scope of this project, but supposedly an Amtrak GG1 pulling the Crescent through Philly in 1976 http://www.trainweb.org/railpi...RR_GG1k_906-5-76.jpg

@LIRR Steamer posted:

Some photos attached from the PRR Technical and Historical volume covering Passenger car paint schemes. . Yhe book mentions in the late 1940s some 46 cars built for New York to Atlanta and New Orleans service were built to plan 4140. These were 10-6 sleepers . Southern had 29, PRR 8, L&N 2 FEC 5 cars , Atlanta and West poinrt 1 and Western of Alabama 1 car.

....

Another interesting thought for through cars on this train was the last of the transcontinental sleepers, the service started in 1968  with a through sleeper operating from San Francisco through LA to New Orleans on the Southern Pacific and then being carried by the Crescent from New Orleans to New York and later Boston . I believe this service lasted into the Amtrak era so it would be interesting to know if there were Amtrak 10-6s in the 1970s consists or would the car have always been a Southern badged car.

I unfortunately only have records for various trains in 1971-1978. It contains several hundred entries and does not have everyday.  It looks like a SP 10-6 sleeper was very common for awhile.  In 1971, it looks like there are 10-6 sleepers from C&O and 11 DBR's from the IC that were put on the train from time to time too. Between 1972-1974, it looks like Amtrak, N&W, and SCL coaches (and Amtrak 10-6 sleepers) found their way in once in awhile as well as the rare UP, or CBQ 10-6 sleeper. Even a random NYC baggage car once or twice for the days shown.

Not in this document, but previously, I've seen photos of PRR B60 baggage cars on the train earlier in either the 50's or 60's.

Looking at the consist documentation I have, the car length varied anywhere from 6 cars to 20 cars.  I'd say the average is somewhere around the 11 cars.

Looking at the options, I don't see anything other than the SP Sunset Limited 10-6 that Scott has already done. That 10-6 is different tooling than Southern's 10-6 (but I assume Scott's factory still has the old SP SL 10-6 tooling?), and also with a the SP general-pool decals instead of SP SL decals. It would be a valid add-on for those who want to do 1968-1974 modeling. (Which at least on this post seems like there are quite a few.) I would most likely add one if it was listed as an option.

Thanks for the all info, Dave. I’d also be interested to see Scott make some PRR, A&WP/WofA, and L&N add on cars. Speaking of the consist, how many cars would a prototypical Crescent have in the 1950’s?

I'm really curious as to the status of this project. There hasn't been much talk about it so I worry about reservation numbers. I also think the consist listed on the GGD website is still wrong. Southern didn't have separate dining cars and kitchen cars.

Well this is awesome!

Funny that this thread came back, as I just last week reserved this very set.

I hope this project moves forward.

-Brian

I want to reserve this set but as mentioned above, the sleeper kitchen car need to go. It’s not a real car. Maybe the 14-4 sleeper can take its place.

Also need the run through 10-6 sleepers in PRR, L&N & A&WP. Lastly the observation car can also be offered in L&N as a separate sale car. With the L&N sleepers & an L&N obs plus a mixture of heavyweight cars one could make the L&N Gulf wind.

@sdmann Could you please offer any updates on this set?

@Will Ebbert posted:

I'm really curious as to the status of this project. There hasn't been much talk about it so I worry about reservation numbers. I also think the consist listed on the GGD website is still wrong. Southern didn't have separate dining cars and kitchen cars.

Can't believe I wrote this post over a year ago, but yes I supplied this and more to @sdmann back then.  I haven't followed up since then either.  He's got a lot of projects in the fire, and this one may not have as much traction as the others, but hopefully it finds a way to get done. If the SAL Meteor got the MOQ, I'd be surprised if this project couldn't also be a winner, especially when you consider all of the possible add-on cars.

If this is still slow, I do think that it would probably help reservations if he updated the listing to a more correct consist and added options for the add-on's in other roads such as PRR, A&WP, WofA, and L&N. I think he might as well list the Royal Palm cars for the FEC and NYC. If you get the MOQ's for those cars too, then great.

If stretched for MOQ's to reach critical mass, he can also look to the recent popularity of GGD's Amtrak cars, and offer cars like the 10-6, the bag-mail, and the 52-seat coach in Amtrak with very little differences (black roof, Amtrak 4-digit numberboard on either end). There's also the the 44-seat diner (ex-AWP [but same tooling], Amtrak 8026 ).  Crescent series cars survived SOU, but I don't think any ended up on Amtrak. I consider @GG1 4877 the Amtrak expert on here, so he can also probably chime in if this train's tooling could be used for anything else Amtrak. Maybe offer a 3 or 4-car Amtrak offering or just add-on's.

The tooling could also be used for a diner car that was sold to the Ringling Brothers if Scott wanted to toss a bone to the Circus modelers.

IMHO, in order to move forward and update the consist on the website, there are some decision points that have to be overcome:

Point 1 is harder to address. 2,3 and 4 would be easy IMHO.

To address these, what I would do is:

1. Survey the reservation holders and get a sense of how many people want this train 1950-1952 vs. 1952-1956 vs. post-1958. (From what I learned, the observation car was taken off in 1956, so you're talking only 6 years with the OBS vs 22 years with the 11DBR. The 11DBR's still exist today, so you might have interest beyond SOU modelers for those.) Based on the numbers, go with one or the other or figure out how to do both (perhaps do the 11DBR and/or 5-Buf-Lng-Obs each in brass if that's what allows the numbers work even if there is a slight price increase? You make all parties happy that way.)
2. If Scott ends up doing the 5-Buf-Lng-Obs at all, then my suggestion to him was to include two pairs of name plates in the box and let modelers attach them to the carbody.  Insert a note in each box explaining why with historical context. (Maybe tool pegs or use magnets to align or attach letterboards to the carbody. Or KISS and just have the modeler buy their preferred brand of rubber cement/glue an attach it themselves. I think its a fair compromise to ask the modeler to do something as simple as attach a nameplate.)
3. And technically, the train was originally delivered with full-width diaphragms, but they didn't last any longer than 1-2 years. Unless the survey shows everyone wants a 1951 crescent, then Scott keeps the costs down and foregoes offering these with this train. No idea what the MOQ+engineering costs are to offer those.

Just keep in mind anyone who has any brand (Weaver, MTH, Lionel, and 3rd Rail) of SOU green E8's and wants a set of accurate 21" cars behind them is going to want a post-1958 consist.  Hopefully there is a way to make all parties happy with minimal cost increases and maximum reservations.

@Joe Congemi posted:

Thanks for the all info, Dave. I’d also be interested to see Scott make some PRR, A&WP/WofA, and L&N add on cars. Speaking of the consist, how many cars would a prototypical Crescent have in the 1950’s?

Agreed.

Throughout its life, it varied on the season and whether or not it ran with more than 1 section.  I have a lot more information from the 70's than I do earlier on.  I'm not sure what the SRHA has on train consists.  I glanced at my notes of maybe 100 consists that someone took the time to write down from the 70's and pulled some repetitive consist numbers out. These do not include motive power. (Which also has its own interesting patterns.)

1952 - 11

[giant gap for most of the 1950s and the 1960s, but it was the base train with additional coaches and 10-6 sleepers added for the most part. Mostly SOU, but some through-sleepers and head-end from other roads. I've seen photos of PRR B60 baggage, NYC/PC head-end cars in the consists.]

1970 - 8,9,12 (I see notes of either head-end or through-cars (10-6) for UP, SP, CBQ, NYC)

1971 - 8,9,12 (I see notes of either head-end or through-cars (10-6) for UP, SP, CBQ, NYC)

1972 - 6,7,8,10,11 (From this point onward, most trains have one AMTK 10-6, sometimes also a Coach car listed.)

1973 - 7,8,9

1974 - 9,10,11,12,13,16

1978 - 7,9,12,15

1979 - 8,10,13,14 (Some AMTK 6DB-LNG in these)

I would venture to say if you could only swing the 8-car core set you'd be covered.  I think the sweet spot is if you can do 11 cars with a foreign head-end car added in (Weaver b60 baggage, or some NYC head-end). I'm aiming for 10-13 or so cars myself for the Crescent.  The core set plus some add-ons can also help easily recreate the later versions of the Piedmont, Peach Queen, or Royal Palm trains as well.

@DaveJfr0 posted:

Agreed.

Throughout its life, it varied on the season and whether or not it ran with more than 1 section.  I have a lot more information from the 70's than I do earlier on.  I'm not sure what the SRHA has on train consists.  I glanced at my notes of maybe 100 consists that someone took the time to write down from the 70's and pulled some repetitive consist numbers out. These do not include motive power. (Which also has its own interesting patterns.)

1952 - 11

[giant gap for most of the 1950s and the 1960s, but it was the base train with additional coaches and 10-6 sleepers added for the most part. Mostly SOU, but some through-sleepers and head-end from other roads. I've seen photos of PRR B60 baggage, NYC/PC head-end cars in the consists.]

1970 - 8,9,12 (I see notes of either head-end or through-cars (10-6) for UP, SP, CBQ, NYC)

1971 - 8,9,12 (I see notes of either head-end or through-cars (10-6) for UP, SP, CBQ, NYC)

1972 - 6,7,8,10,11 (From this point onward, most trains have one AMTK 10-6, sometimes also a Coach car listed.)

1973 - 7,8,9

1974 - 9,10,11,12,13,16

1978 - 7,9,12,15

1979 - 8,10,13,14 (Some AMTK 6DB-LNG in these)

I would venture to say if you could only swing the 8-car core set you'd be covered.  I think the sweet spot is if you can do 11 cars with a foreign head-end car added in (Weaver b60 baggage, or some NYC head-end). I'm aiming for 10-13 or so cars myself for the Crescent.  The core set plus some add-ons can also help easily recreate the later versions of the Piedmont, Peach Queen, or Royal Palm trains as well.

Great info, thanks!

I’m probably going to do the base set plus an extra coach & PRR 10-6 sleeper if it’s made. Plus I have some PRR B60’s to add in.

I am sure glad I found this thread and it looks like it's been a minute since anyone has posted.  Now I will be honest, my SOU passenger car knowledge is not on your guys' level by any means, but what era did the black roofs first make their appearance on the SOU passenger cars?  If the black roofs came about after the 1950s, and the era GGD is attempting to model, then this will definitely be a moot question, but yes, I wanted to reach out to the community on this one.

I also wish to order the Crescent set but this project has been on hold for years.  Wish Scott would (get off the fence).  (His own words.)   This is a big $$$ item when the engines are also needed.  Tommy

Yeah I bought 4 Lionel E8s over 3 years ago now and they've been sitting with nothing to pull.  @sdmann could we please get an update on these?

I would like to see the consist corrected. Sleeper/ kitchen…. There’s no such car.

@Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:

I would like to see the consist corrected. Sleeper/ kitchen…. There’s no such car.

If you don't mind.  Send me an email to remind me.  I have the plan book for this train and we can work to get it corrected.

Thanks!

@GG1 4877 posted:

If you don't mind.  Send me an email to remind me.  I have the plan book for this train and we can work to get it corrected.

Thanks!

Sent…. I also put a plug in for run through 10-6 sleepers in PRR, L&N & A&WP

While I always liked the look of full scale passenger cars my space has been limited so I wasn't about to invest in something that can only sit on the shelf.   However life has changed and now I'm packing up everything for a move to, well somewhere and one of the requirements for that somewhere is space to run the trains.   My E8's look good and the Railking Southern sets are ok as something to pull but now with the possibility of a space with large curves I'm thinking of the 21" cars.     The problem I don't want to make a reservation and then have to cancel if things don't work out since GGD is very clear what that would mean on any future reservations.  I'm tempted but at the same time I'm getting older and with no updates for years, are these cars even worth considering.    I'll keep watching for a notice of reservations closing, in the meantime I'm packing, packing, packing,.

-Mike in NC,

Hi Will,  FYI I received an e-mail from Scott on 5/1/23 stating that the project has not started.  He's aware of the lag time but gave no reason why the Crescent project is on the back burner and also under very low heat.  Tommy

@thebeeman posted:

Hi Will,  FYI I received an e-mail from Scott on 5/1/23 stating that the project has not started.  He's aware of the lag time but gave no reason why the Crescent project is on the back burner and also under very low heat.  Tommy

Unfortunately, most likely not enough reservations is the reason for the back burner, and not nearly enough reservations is the reason for the very low heat.  Scott/GGD only builds items that get enough reservations to meet a minimum threshold.

Thanks Jtrain,  I'm well aware of Scott's business plan since I have about 25 plus GGD engines and pass. cars in house and  an addition 5 units waiting  to be started.  Only 1 steam engine ordered has a start time line on it.  I believe you may be preaching to the choir concerning Scott's reservation methods .

I'd really just like to know if this is something that looks promising or not. If it has ~80% of the needed reservations, we could probably stir up enough interest to push it across that threshold. If it has less than half, let's just call it a day and I'll sell my engines or look for Lionel cars and call it good enough. Either way, I'd just like to know.

@M J Breen posted:

On the note of preorders though, I think that Sunset models needs to find a way to get word out more with their new announcements. i do think theres an appetite for high quality scale models and an enthusiasm through instagram and facebook posting and comments showing this. I feel thag Sunset’s Facebook page is not very active and when I see posts featuring Sunset or Golden Gate models  -like the recent Chessie set arrival -  many people post “I didn’t know they were making that” or “who is that”??   But I am not a manufacturer, or a marketing executive- Scott has many many people tell him often what he should make what will be a big hit - and it often is not or he knows better. I give him a great deal of credit for his well run Business in a niche market for so long - and I am not in any way saying that magazine print and forum advertisements are not effective as they are - I just feel that word doesn’t get around with his advertisements as well as it could.

This is spot on. The awareness even in the O scale hobby of GGD/3rd Rail is pretty low. The product in terms of scale fidelity is the best out there, and people would pay for it if they knew.

Sticking to the magazines and forums alone misses out on a significant segment of the hobby.

My original post was deleted due to my use of an image - so here it is again without that:

I too have the GGD Southern set on preorder and I also hope it gets made. I am wishful if Scott could also include or separate sell the Tavern Observation car that was used exclusively on the Tennessean. The train consists were identical except the Tennessean had that Tavern car added on.

On the note of preorders though, I think that Sunset models needs to find a way to get word out more with their new announcements. i do think theres an appetite for high quality scale models and an enthusiasm through instagram and facebook posting and comments showing this. I feel thag Sunset’s Facebook page is not very active and when I see posts featuring Sunset or Golden Gate models  -like the recent Chessie set arrival -  many people post “I didn’t know they were making that” or “who is that”??   But I am not a manufacturer, or a marketing executive- Scott has many many people tell him often what he should make what will be a big hit - and it often is not or he knows better. I give him a great deal of credit for his well run Business in a niche market for so long - and I am not in any way saying that magazine print and forum advertisements are not effective as they are - I just feel that word doesn’t get around with his advertisements as well as it could.

They used to go to all the train shows York, Chicago, etc,  but found no one was interested in the stuff for available for reservations only how to fix issues with stuff they already had or to say "if you make X you'll sell a million of them, but I'm not interested in reserving any.  If they had a catalog it would be 2 pages long and that flyer used to be all over the place but again got very little response for the effort and cost.  So, what "other" ways are you speaking about.  You can lead a horse to water but...

@rdunniii posted:

They used to go to all the train shows York, Chicago, etc,  but found no one was interested in the stuff for available for reservations only how to fix issues with stuff they already had or to say "if you make X you'll sell a million of them, but I'm not interested in reserving any.  If they had a catalog it would be 2 pages long and that flyer used to be all over the place but again got very little response for the effort and cost.  So, what "other" ways are you speaking about.  You can lead a horse to water but...

I agree.  The products are terrific in the detail included but the prices are relatively high, especially for the 3-rail market, which probably significantly limits the actual demand.

@rdunniii posted:

They used to go to all the train shows York, Chicago, etc,  but found no one was interested in the stuff for available for reservations only how to fix issues with stuff they already had or to say "if you make X you'll sell a million of them, but I'm not interested in reserving any.  If they had a catalog it would be 2 pages long and that flyer used to be all over the place but again got very little response for the effort and cost.  So, what "other" ways are you speaking about.  You can lead a horse to water but...

There are thousands or tens of thousands of people in the hobby that are using social media almost exclusively to interact with others in the hobby. There are now multiple items that I've bought from Sunset/3rd Rail that have elicited great responses online that people just didn't know about. One of the most active people I know in the hobby is a huge Southern fan, and only this past March found out about the Crescent, and only then because I put him onto it.

If the goal is to maximize orders, then things like train shows matter, even if there is the annoyance of dealing with customers and potential customers. In sports, they say you're either getting better or worse, never staying the same. Likewise, in business, your customer base is either growing or shrinking, never remaining the same.

The customer base will never be Lionel big, price/detail/required curves all reduce the number of consumers for this product. However, not seeking to expand knowledge of the product to those moving to more scale offerings isn't the way to ensure that preorder minimums get met.

I agree. The company could do a better job of posting actual photos of the finished products on their website. Many people only see the announcement which has photos of either the real train or an HO brass model. I have dozens of GGD cars and still remember kicking myself for not ordering the NCL after seeing photos of the actual models. GGD products are much more detailed than the big manufacturers but is hard to know that unless you see their product.

@Will Ebbert posted:

I agree. The company could do a better job of posting actual photos of the finished products on their website. Many people only see the announcement which has photos of either the real train or an HO brass model. I have dozens of GGD cars and still remember kicking myself for not ordering the NCL after seeing photos of the actual models. GGD products are much more detailed than the big manufacturers but is hard to know that unless you see their product.

Not sure I understand this.

The vast majority of Scott's projects are one-and-done runs.  That's particularly true of complete GGD passenger trains.  So, how would the finished product...if not yet made...be photographed and advertised to garner reservations for a future production run??

FI, there was (if my recollection is correct) only one run of the NCL.  How would you have been able to see photos of these actual model cars...before they were made??

There are exceptions, of course.  FI, a second run of the 1937 Santa Fe Super Chief is pending reservations.  Photos of the first run's cars are part of that announcement.  Even so, 3rd Rail seems to make subtle, and not-so-subtle changes to the product in subsequent models when warranted, requested, or financially feasible ...mechanicals, electronics, cosmetics, etc..

If there is any question that the end product from 3rd Rail/Sunset would exceed the fidelity and quality of their closest competitors, then the reticence of a buyer to make a commitment for the unique opportunity to have the best is not an advertising problem.  Generally, people who seek the best will always pursue the best as a matter of priority.

For those who have an appreciation of Scott's projects through the years, I can't understand why they wouldn't be signed up to receive direct emails from him on 3rd Rail/GGD's latest news?  What could be more timely and informative of present and future products??

Of course, that's just MHO...FWIW.

KD

I meant more so to encourage future reservations. If you look at the GGD website, there's not an archive showing past projects so somebody who is unfamiliar with the level of detail on their cars wouldn't understand the high prices. It would be really easy to have a tab on the site showing previous models produced to give an idea of what to expect on upcoming ones.

As for the emails, I have signed up for the newsletter several times over the years and never gotten one. Doesn't go to junk or anything, they just don't come to me.

@Will Ebbert posted:

I agree. The company could do a better job of posting actual photos of the finished products on their website. Many people only see the announcement which has photos of either the real train or an HO brass model. I have dozens of GGD cars and still remember kicking myself for not ordering the NCL after seeing photos of the actual models. GGD products are much more detailed than the big manufacturers but is hard to know that unless you see their product.

That also used to be done, but no more.  He posted pictures of something just completed but still in China and someone complained about this and that and the other details and more than 50% (I think it was close to 75%)  of the reservation holders cancelled their reservations.   AND, then many tried to reinstate their reservations after they arrived but they had already been sold to standbys and some others who had waited to see them first so they complained about that.

FYI      😜😜😜  

The Southern Crescent Is Alive !!!    
Work Begins !!!  👍👍👍

It is going into design. Watch the GGD webpage for consist Revisions and Additions !!!!! There will of course be Extra Southern cars But Also extras of Other Roads !!! 🙌🙌🙌    
Understand ….. the Q is Amtrak (in production), B&O Capital Ltd, and then Southern Crescent.  

Cheers 😉

Thanks for the update! This is great news indeed. I really thought this project might be dead since we went so long without an update. Can't wait!

@TrainBub posted:

FYI      😜😜😜  

The Southern Crescent Is Alive !!!    
Work Begins !!!  👍👍👍

It is going into design. Watch the GGD webpage for consist Revisions and Additions !!!!! There will of course be Extra Southern cars But Also extras of Other Roads !!! 🙌🙌🙌    
Understand ….. the Q is Amtrak (in production), B&O Capital Ltd, and then Southern Crescent.  

Cheers 😉

This is fantastic news! I’ll be reserving now that I see the consist is corrected, thanks for posting.

My suggestions for extras: 10-6 sleepers in PRR, Atlanta & West Point, L&N, Amtrak Phase I, Amtrak Phase III,

Coaches: PRR, L&N, Amtrak phase I

Diners, Amtrak phase I, III, V

observation: L&N (for the gulf wind)

there’s probably some I’m missing, goes to show there’s  lots of possibilities. FYI, Amtrak guys are hungry for some heritage cars in the later paint schemes (III and above) This train set offers many Amtrak possibilities

Yes I'll definitely buy some add on cars for A&WP, W of A, and L&N. I'd be in for a Phase VI diner as well if possible @sdmann thanks for making this project happen! 

Nice to see the Excitement !!! 😜  If anyone was sitting on the fence, this is a good time to hop off and join.  

There’s quite a few roads that are Possible for Extras. I think that’s pretty cool as it allows one to begin building other road consists. I’m currently doing this with a NDM Aztec Eagle and B&O National Ltd.
You Know The Drill !!! 😉 Email Scott to let him know your preferences. When Scott posts those extras, confirm your preferences with reservations. Reservation Numbers Are Important to get it Done for the extras.

Cheers 😉

Another great add on car would be the Pullman green vista dome car that was used in the 70’s from Atlanta to New Orleans.  Lionel made a plastic model of this car based on the Union Pacific dome coach tooling they have. I would love to see it correctly done in aluminum!

Just sent Scott an email. There were also cars in this order from Pullman Standard for Western Railway of Alabama, Atlanta & West Point, Florida East Coast, Louisville & Nashville, New York Central, Pennsylvania, and CNO&TP. I'd particularly like CNO&TP sleeper #3402 "Coosa River" as I grew up on the Coosa. Some cars were used on other trains besides the Crescent giving more options to eastern modelers.

@Will Ebbert posted:

Just sent Scott an email. There were also cars in this order from Pullman Standard for Western Railway of Alabama, Atlanta & West Point, Florida East Coast, Louisville & Nashville, New York Central, Pennsylvania, and CNO&TP. I'd particularly like CNO&TP sleeper #3402 "Coosa River" as I grew up on the Coosa. Some cars were used on other trains besides the Crescent giving more options to eastern modelers.

Great point on the Coosa River! I've seen a lot of Atlanta and West Point on the Seaboard and ACL. Did they run on the Crescent?

I am definitely in. Running the North East Corridor in the mid 50's I'd love to have one of my GG1's pulling the Crescent.

I know this is sacrilege, but I plan on "gasps" painting the roofs black on my set to model the late 70s Crescent so I can run it with my green E8s. I know the observation car technically shouldn't be on the consist as a result, but we'll make an exception 😉

Thanks everyone for your incredible help to get this project off the ground. I'll be adding in the suggested Pool cars for those that want to reserve them. The main set and extra cars have been corrected on our web site.

Thanks to several of you, we have our data package ready to send to Design.

Onward!!!

@sdmann posted:

Thanks everyone for your incredible help to get this project off the ground. I'll be adding in the suggested Pool cars for those that want to reserve them. The main set and extra cars have been corrected on our web site.

Thanks to several of you, we have our data package ready to send to Design.

Onward!!!

@sdmann Great news Scott!  Question - does this include the tavern lounge car from the Tennessean?  

this would allow the N&W modelers to have a proper consist for their Js to pull!  

@M J Breen posted:

@sdmann Great news Scott!  Question - does this include the tavern lounge car from the Tennessean?  

this would allow the N&W modelers to have a proper consist for their Js to pull!  

This is a prewar pullman fluted car which would require a new extrusion so...

@rdunniii posted:

This is a prewar pullman fluted car which would require a new extrusion so...

While you are correct that the Tennessean did have a couple of Pullman heavyweight sleepers that were paint silver and had fluting added, which were coupled on at Bristol, VA - that is NOT the car I am asking about.

The tavern lounge in my previous post was part of the new Pullman Standard fleet for the Tennessean and Southerner trains in 1941. The 2 trains had identical consists except the Tennessean had the tavern lounge allowing sleepers to be coupled on to the rear of the train, while the Southerner had a round end observation.  I believe the crescent would get the same cars from Pullman standard after the war so this is a opportunity to model all 3 trains if the Tavern Lounge is made.

Ok so in addition to pool service cars I asked Scott for Amtrak diners & 10-6 sleepers in phase I, III, IV and for diners V. A friend of mine asked Scott for phase I coaches. I also asked for the green dome. Anybody want some amtrak heritage? I don’t want to take conversation away from the crescent so if a lot of you want amtrak cars we can start a new thread.

email Scott if you want amtrak heritage.

Fingers crossed.

@M J Breen posted:

@sdmann Great news Scott!  Question - does this include the tavern lounge car from the Tennessean?  

this would allow the N&W modelers to have a proper consist for their Js to pull!  

You should probably delete this photo before the moderators step in.  We’re not supposed to post photos unless it’s our own stuff or we own the photos. Post a link to the photo. Just trying to help

Yes please delete the image 😮🫢⚠️
Don’t get this thread killed. 😵‍💫

I don’t see the individual cars in other road names on the GGD reservation form.  I would like to order some PRR coaches and sleepers to go with the Silver Meteor.

@Jtrain posted:

I don’t see the individual cars in other road names on the GGD reservation form.  I would like to order some PRR coaches and sleepers to go with the Silver Meteor.

Stay tuned ……… 😉

Update FYI

Scott has posted a Ton of Extras on the GGD webpage - something for Everyone !!!!  Including Amtrak 😮😳😜😜😜    
So great for those wanting to build other consists !!!!    
WOW 😮

😉😉😉😉😉

This is a top 3 run for me! The Eagle and Milwaukee Road are my favorites. For those wondering on additional cars, here is a list that Scott posted. Please visit the site and reserve. =)

Additional  Cars Available:

Atlanta & West Point (52 Seat Coach, 10-6 Sleeper, Diner)
Florida East Coast (52 Seat Coach, 10-6 Sleeper, Obs)
L&N ( Bag/RPO, Bag/Dorm, 52 Seat Coach, 10-6 Sleeper, Diner, Obs)
PRR (10-6 Sleepers)
Western Railway of Alabama (Bag/RPO, 52 Seat Coach, 10-6 Sleeper, Diner, Obs)

Pending Licencing by Amtrak:
Amtrak 10-6 Sleepers (Phase I, III, IV & V)
Amtrak Diners (Phase I,  III, IV & V)
Amtrak Coaches (Phase I, III, IV & V)

For the experts like @John Sethian, which cars other than the Crescent itself would have made their way into the Northeast? Obviously the PRR car, but any of the other southern roadnames?

This looks awesome.  I will definitely get in on this project but will wait for things to marinate a little with folks proposing specific cars for consists etc. as well as the list of available pool cars firming up.  There are enough cars being offered up with some of these roads to potentially make up full named trains which may have never been offered before to my knowledge.

The other factor is engines.  If the E8s are being done again, then certainly I'd wait for a set of the Crescent-branded E8s versus some other power for that train.  Same goes with the pool cars.  It will be up to some of our prototype history-minded folks to say, "hey, if we had X Y and Z, you could make Named Train 2 from 1951 which ran PAs" etc.

So this will be a lot of fun.

@Andrew B. posted:

For the experts like @John Sethian, which cars other than the Crescent itself would have made their way into the Northeast? Obviously the PRR car, but any of the other southern roadnames?

Central of Georgia and NYC are two other names not yet mentioned from the 1950's-1970's.

Reservations page now up with ALL the Extras !!!!  😜😜😜

Step up time !!! 😉

@vash44 posted:

This is a top 3 run for me! The Eagle and Milwaukee Road are my favorites. For those wondering on additional cars, here is a list that Scott posted. Please visit the site and reserve. =)

Additional  Cars Available:

Atlanta & West Point (52 Seat Coach, 10-6 Sleeper, Diner)
Florida East Coast (52 Seat Coach, 10-6 Sleeper, Obs)
L&N ( Bag/RPO, Bag/Dorm, 52 Seat Coach, 10-6 Sleeper, Diner, Obs)
PRR (10-6 Sleepers)
Western Railway of Alabama (Bag/RPO, 52 Seat Coach, 10-6 Sleeper, Diner, Obs)

Pending Licencing by Amtrak:
Amtrak 10-6 Sleepers (Phase I, III, IV & V)
Amtrak Diners (Phase I,  III, IV & V)
Amtrak Coaches (Phase I, III, IV & V)

As others have pointed out, with these additional cars, you can put together 3 separate trains:

The Crescent

The Gulf Wind (L&N/Seaboard)

The Royal Palm (Florida East Coast/Southern)

Maybe we can get Seaboard coaches and sleepers too?  I am guessing they were not part of these prototype car orders but maybe they had identical/very similar cars?

@Jtrain posted:

As you wish.  I prefer the earlier (1940’s-early 1950’s) paint scheme on the E6 A and B units.

I’ve noticed when Scott does E units, he always does 2 Southern paint schemes.

These cars will all have the silver roofs, right?  I hope so, since that would cover 1949 to the mid 1970’s, and most motive power options.

Black roofs would limit them to mid 1970’s to late 1970’s.  Black roofs would be a dealbreaker for me.

I guess that people who want black roofs could always paint them black, which would be much easier than the other way around, and trying to match the silver finish.

@Jtrain posted:

These cars will all have the silver roofs, right?  I hope so, since that would cover 1949 to the mid 1970’s, and most motive power options.

Black roofs would limit them to mid 1970’s to late 1970’s.  Black roofs would be a dealbreaker for me.

I guess that people who want black roofs could always paint them black, which would be much easier than the other way around, and trying to match the silver finish.

Yes, Scott has said the train will be "as delivered" with silver roofs.

@sdmann thank you for the add on cars already listed! Would it be possible to list all the Southern cars individually (including the buffet lounge) so we can do a full mix and match set? Thanks!

As a side note for the 3-rail guys Lionel's new catalog has a Southern E6 listed.  Also has a fixed pilot avaiable.

This is only slightly of topic:  When I was six years old, my dad used to take me to see the Crescent go on the Long Bridge over the Potomac in Washington DC Many years later, towards the end of its life, I either watched it from our high rise apartment building across the Capital Beltway, or I drove to see it speed through Burke VA.  Here are a couple photos of it with my vintage car:

The crew always waved!  Now you know why I need to have one pulled by a GG1 on my layout.

@John Sethian posted:

This is only slightly of topic:  When I was six years old, my dad used to take me to see the Crescent go on the Long Bridge over the Potomac in Washington DC Many years later, towards the end of its life, I either watched it from our high rise apartment building across the Capital Beltway, or I drove to see it speed through Burke VA.  Here are a couple photos of it with my vintage car.

Hi John:

Thank you for the photo of 6901 and of your car.  Great shot!

do you still have the car after all these years?

Happy railroading,

Don

@DGJONES posted:

Hi John:

Thank you for the photo of 6901 and of your car.  Great shot!

do you still have the car after all these years?

Happy railroading,

Don

Don,

That photo was taken in Nov 1978, about three months before the end of the Southern Crescent.  Like the Crescent, the car is long gone.  But I have a replacement, in much better condition, now.

John

So I am trying to put an order in on these cars. I will order the 8 car set +not sure the other cars....thinking about a L&N sleeper and Atlanta & West Point coach. What would a typical 1952-1954 passenger train car consist look like? How many sleepers and coaches. I am assuming the cars from all the road names that managed the train would be all mixed up but Scott says the only way to get the Crescent observation is with the set.....so the set it will be, but what should I add?

When the crescent was pulled by EMD E6's in the colorful early paint scheme was there some streamlined cars mixed with heavyweights? Or did they only pull heavyweights. I am interested in the new E6's in Lionel's catalog.

I have the Lionel E8's that others have mentioned and I plan on running those and ignoring the fact that they did not have the "The Crescent" logo on the front in the 1950's.

The last question is - South of Montgomery would L&N engines have pulled this train or did Southern engines run through? Just wondering If I could use my L&N E6's or E8's.

On a side note I was looking through the consist of the Tennessean (I have a 3rd rail E6 Tennessean-no cars). A person could use some of the cars if you can overlook Bud vs Pullman Standard and car names. The headend , dinner and coaches are similar, you would not have a blunt end observation car- maybe use the Buffet/lounge and add heavyweight sleepers on the end. I know not exact, but reasonable.

Joe

@Blue Streak posted:

The last question is - South of Montgomery would L&N engines have pulled this train or did Southern engines run through? Just wondering If I could use my L&N E6's or E8's.

Yes, it would've used L&N power south. From Montgomery to Atlanta was A&WP/ W of A F3s.

Remember that at some point, although later than the era Joe is modelling, the Southern Crescent route was switched so it stayed on Southern rails all the way from New Orleans to Alexandria VA.

@Will Ebbert posted:

Yes, it would've used L&N power south. From Montgomery to Atlanta was A&WP/ W of A F3s.

But it looks like A&WP had no F3’s and W of A only had one, if you can believe Wikipedia.  Neither railroad had any F7’s.  They did have a few FP7’s, but it is my understanding that those were used for secondary routes/connecting trains.  So did the Crescent actually use A&WP/W of A power?  Or was it just PRR/Southern/L&N?

@Jtrain posted:

But it looks like A&WP had no F3’s and W of A only had one, if you can believe Wikipedia.  Neither railroad had any F7’s.  They did have a few FP7’s, but it is my understanding that those were used for secondary routes/connecting trains.  So did the Crescent actually use A&WP/W of A power?  Or was it just PRR/Southern/L&N?

Shoot me an email and I'll send you some photos I have of the Crescent in the Auburn, AL area with an F unit from each of the two roads.

@Will Ebbert posted:

Shoot me an email and I'll send you some photos I have of the Crescent in the Auburn, AL area with an F unit from each of the two roads.

Was that in the 1960’s?  I wouldn’t think that 2 F units at 3,000 total hp would be enough horsepower to pull that train in the 1950’s.  Maybe in the 1960’s when the train got shorter.  The Southern used at least 2 E units at a minimum of 4,000 hp in the 1940’s/1950’s.

I am trying to figure out which extra cars I want.  I used to live in Atlanta and have been to West Point, GA many times...so I was thinking A&WP, but can't find many pictures.  I saw an HO model on brass trains that had a red surrounding the lettering.  Was this typical?  If you own a picture of some of these obscure road names, can you post pictures or if you have some, I can email you.  Thanks

Yes I'm in a bit of a pickle. I'm going to have to order the Southern 8 car set to get the lounge car and Southern observation, but I want a handful of W of A and A&WP cars for sure and I wouldn't mind a couple L&N cars, but I'd really only like ~11 cars in total so I'll end up with more than I'd like. Either run a long train or try and sell some extras? I wish each car was available individually.

Well I have spent some time looking through Southern, L&N, and Pullman standard books and have found a few interesting things that is helping me decide what extra cars to order. (note: I didn't really pay attention to all the roads - just the ones I was interested in L&N, Atlanta & West Point, and Western of Alabama)

Also these cars were assigned or purchased for the original 1949 Crescent:

10-6 Sleepers: L&N (2) 3400* Mobile River and 3401* Pearl River. Western of Alabama - Alabama River and Atlanta & WP - Chattahoochee River. Not sure the numbers on those. Also (*) I looked at two books and they had the numbers on the L&N sleepers reversed so I am not positive which car get 3400 & 3401.

52 seat Coaches: L&N (3) 3250-3251 (that is not 3, but that's what I see) Western of Alabama (1) #106 and Atlanta & WP (2) 68-69.

I like the letter board on the Western of Alabama and Atlanta & WP. "The West Point Route" 

I am thinking about requesting L&N 10-6 Pearl River, A&WP "Chattahoochee River" - Love that name,  and W of A coach 106.

Joe

Just submitted my finalized order. Should make for a nice train. Hopefully the list isn't too confusing haha

Southern 8 car set (Coosa River or Catawba River for the included 10-6 sleeper and Crescent Moon or Crescent Harbor for the buffet/lounge)

1 extra Southern coach (#829 and #832 between the set and add on)

A&WP 10-6 sleeper (Chattahoochee River)

A&WP coach

W of A 10-6 sleeper (Alabama River)

W of A coach

Amtrak phase VI diner

I like that great photo that includes the Jag XK-120. I used to have an XK-150 back in 1967, one of my favorite cars of all. I never got to ride the real Southern Crescent, but I have ridden Amtrak's version from New Orleans to Washington as part of a Tucson to D.C. trip by train.

I ordered my cars tonight.

Southern Set, L&N 10-6 Pearl River #3401, A&WP 10-6 Chattahoochee River #7241 and WR of A Coach 106.

Do we know when the reservations are closing on these?  I have some on order, but am thinking of adding more.

Andy, Scott will let everybody know when the reservations are closing and will ask you to confirm your order. Since that hasn't happened yet, you are still free to add more cars to your order.

@roll_the_dice posted:

Do we know when the reservations are closing on these?  I have some on order, but am thinking of adding more.

Here’s a “Today” snapshot. The “Q” Can Change.  
Amtrak cars (Superliner, Viewliner, Amfleet) are currently in production. Next in the Q is the B&O Capital Ltd. and it Still Has Open reservations. The Southern is next in the Q after the Cap.  
The Southern just got a revised listing with extensive “Extras”. Scott will want people to have time to consider these extras. When the Cap heads into production (reservations close),  its time to decide on your Southern consist.
Understand…..when reservations close, the production numbers are fixed. That determines how many Parts Are Ordered.  When one train is finishing production, the next one is ready to slide right into the production line…. There is considerable overlap of effort.

So….You’ve some time now to be refining your reservations. Whenever you are ready, go ahead and step up if you are comfortable with that. The better reservation numbers firm up the Q.

Lots of really nice choices !!!

Cheers 😉

  @bigboy25 &  @TrainBub  Thanks!  I need to make up my mind on what add ons I want in addition to the Crescent.

There is definitely time to firm up an order for cars, but the sooner the orders come it, a better clarity on how well the project will perform overall and keep other projects from jumping the spot in line. 

Any idea what car number belongs to the A&WP 10-6, Chattahoochee River?

@Joe Congemi posted:

Any idea what car number belongs to the A&WP 10-6, Chattahoochee River?

@vash44, A&WP used the same number series as L&N for their Crescent 10-6’s?

Hi everyone.

I'm hoping that I can get some help and advice from the wonderful pool of knowledgeable folks here please.

I'm looking to get some cars to make up a  Gulf Wind (or my own 'abbreviated' version) as it would have run at the Seaboard end of it's run in the late 50s-early 60s. I have a pretty extensive selection of US railroad books here but this one is proving tricky. My question is would most of the cars have been marked for L&N or did other 'pool' cars marked for A&WP, WRoA or SRR ever creep into the consist and if they did, which car types?

Also, did Seaboard provide any cars for the train or just motive power at the Eastern end of the trip. I've noticed in a few photos that the Obs car seemed to run into the 60s which is great as those picture windows are stunning!

Many thanks for any pointers...it's not always easy loving trains that ran 3500 miles from home! Lol.

Best wishes to all.

Steve

@Steve Adby posted:

Hi everyone.

I'm hoping that I can get some help and advice from the wonderful pool of knowledgeable folks here please.

I'm looking to get some cars to make up a  Gulf Wind (or my own 'abbreviated' version) as it would have run at the Seaboard end of it's run in the late 50s-early 60s. I have a pretty extensive selection of US railroad books here but this one is proving tricky. My question is would most of the cars have been marked for L&N or did other 'pool' cars marked for A&WP, WRoA or SRR ever creep into the consist and if they did, which car types?

Also, did Seaboard provide any cars for the train or just motive power at the Eastern end of the trip. I've noticed in a few photos that the Obs car seemed to run into the 60s which is great as those picture windows are stunning!

Many thanks for any pointers...it's not always easy loving trains that ran 3500 miles from home! Lol.

Best wishes to all.

Steve

here’s a link with some info on the gulf wind. https://nolahistoryguy.com/blo...ouisville-nashville/

This is a train I want to build too, I work in New Orleans & live close to the route of the Crescent, Humming bird & Gulf wind.

Reserving the L&N observation car is a good start. Maybe we can get Scott to do a Gulf Wind drumhead for it. I will use my GGD silver meteor, plus the crescent cars to build this train. I also have Lionel’s blue L&N RPO.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...9#184156761144798149

Many thanks for this. I've seen this and a couple of other posts but none of them really mention what cars were used and in which road names....I'll keep searching but any other info is greatly appreciated.