Grounding A TIU Required?

Mike,

It's necessary to phase all transformers together and then to connect together one Common line from each transformer.

Doing so ensures that there will be one continuous Common for the layout, that any TMCC or Legacy signal is available throughout the layout and that switch tracks wired for automatic non-derailing will operate in that manner, regardless of which transformer powers the switch track motors.

Mike,

 

Please explain to me why I'm having to remove to polarity plugs from the old 180W bricks and having to install a reverse polarity plug on a new 180W brick.

 

I have no idea.

Phasing of power supplies between manufacturers can be curious since, although there may be a standard, there's no guarantee that a manufacturer will follow it. Since the Z4000 is UL approved, I'd use those transformers as the standard for your layout and then adjust anything else to match phase with the Z4000s.

Is there a test to confirm circuit phase without using a transformer and just a test meter?

There may well be such a method, however, if there is I'm not aware of it.

"Barry, hooking up the phase wire to all eight Z4000's that are on three different circuits in the breaker panel, turned out to be a little educational.  "

STOP!!!

There may be nothing wrong with any of your train transformers. The problem may very well be in the way you have connected everything to your house wiring. But there may be nothing wrong there, either.

Allow me to explain:

Your house wiring has 2 hot legs and a neutral leg coming into it. The voltage between either hot leg and the neutral is ~120v. The voltage between the 2 hot legs is ~240v. That's how you get the 240v for your stove, dryer, and possibly central AC.

Now lets look at your distribution panel. Typically the 2 hot legs go down the middle and branch to both sides of the breakers. Rather like a ladder, but the rungs from one side do not connect on the other side. Alternating rungs connect to opposite hot legs. What this means is that adjacent circuit breakers are connected to opposite hot legs.

You stated you are connected to 3 different circuits. My guess is that one of those is on an opposite hot leg. Nothing wrong with the house wiring, and it really would not matter, so long as you do not tie things back together after the recepticles!

Try connecting some of your Z4Ks and your bricks on one recepticle. Then swap Z4Ks or bricks. See if you get your problem or not. If it dissappears, then you need to get an electrician in and reconfigure the wiring at the breaker panel so that all the breakers in that room are on the same hot leg.

Chris

LVHR

My Railroad building has six circuits.

East Wall

South and West Wall

Outside Receptacles

North Wall

Floor South

Floor North

Through testing using a pair of Z4000's, I know that the two floor circuits, the North Wall and East Wall are in phase.  I also know that the South and West wall is out of phase to the Z4000's.

I don't use the South and West Wall for anything except a radio, battery charger and the cordless phones.

If I tie into the three circuits that are in phase, through the floor and wall receptacles by plugging transformers, TIU power supples (Radio Shack) and a phase wire that connects to one black plug-in on each side of the eight Z4000's, will I run into a problem with the two walls on one circuit that are out of phase if I don't plug anything into them?  The three circuits that are in phase has been the primary source of power for the last 10 years.

Adding !80 W bricks to power a TIU is new, in the last 6 months.  All the 180 W bricks are located on the three circuits in phase, however; the reverse polarity adapter is now no longer required as I can get the 180 W bricks in phase with the Z4000's using just the three in phase circuits without the reverse adapter.

I tested all the 180 W bricks on all three of the circuits in phase and they all exhibit the same voltage and in phase without a reverse polarity adapter.  I didn't bother to test the out of phase circuit as it was of no use to me, I thought.  

I don't know if you're familiar with the polarity adapters that Lionel made back in 1999 and 2000.  A batch of 180 W bricks were wired incorrectly, internally and to fix that problem, they made an adapter that takes the center pin on the adapter on one end of the plug and it then has continuity on the other side at the the outside pin.  So the center pin wiring, is changed to be outside pin for the (+) side.  However, when eliminating the polarity adapter and using the TPC cable set, the center pin is now connected to red (+) banana plug and the outside is wired to the white wire and a black banana plug.  

I'm not going to attempt to open the 300 amp service panel and change anything, but it seems plausible that all of the six circuit breakers for the "Train Room"  could be on the same leg.  The four sets of eight overhead lights on four different circuit breakers, could easily be swapped to keep power balance as just about everything in the Train Room is on a 20 amp breaker.  The Wood Working Shop has 220 breakers and also has two 15 amp breakers for the lights and regular wall outlets.

The Display Room and Full Bath all have 15 amp breakers.

Thanks for the information and help.

Moke Mike

Must be a thousand feet of track to require all that power!

Granted we've only about 250' total but it's powered with two Z4000s and we've power in reserve even running multiple passenger trains with the old lighting.

Just the luck'o'the Irish I guess ...

Charly,

I read this to mean that any aux transformer powering switches should be in phase with transformers powering track.  Is that correct?

Yes.

Do the aux power transformers need to share the common with the track power transformers?

Yes.

I plan to use barrier strips to power transformers on/off, so I'm surmising that all should be in phase with each other on a common strip and shared recepticle, correct?

Yes.

Barry, on our layout the ROW transformer which powers the turnout motors and aux lighting is completely separate from the rest of the transformers (two Z4000) as are the circuits it powers, so the ROW isn't phased with the others.

That said, I don't have any non-derailing circuits hooked up ... so that could be an issue if those are used without the powering transformer in phase with the track power as long as it doesn't involve non-derailing features.

As everything works fine I'd suggest that sometimes a transformer which has nothing to do with track power or DCS/TMCC signals can be apart from the rest of the circuity as long as the circuit(s) it powers are isolated from the rest of the electrical system.

Does this seem reasonable?

If not, why would it be a problem?

Thank you.

ps, your book again helped me resolve an issue last night, at least a year after I purchased it!

As I stated earlier in this thread:

Doing so ensures that there will be one continuous Common for the layout, that any TMCC or Legacy signal is available throughout the layout and that switch tracks wired for automatic non-derailing will operate in that manner, regardless of which transformer powers the switch track motors.

Those are the reasons for phasing and connecting transformers. You should phase and connect Commons of any and all transformers where the above applies.

Good reasons.  I'll hook it up to the other two.