Homasote board OR Styrofoam?
What is your choice and why!
I am in the process of building my layout and always used Homasote board.
This time around I'm thinking of using Styrofoam.
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Both?
Styrofoam has almost no sound deadening properties. It's a THERMAL insulation product. It is light in weight and can be sculpted to make scenery. It has extremely poor mechanical attachment properties (like screws/nails). It takes plaster and paint well. It's also quite flammable.
Homasote is a sound deadener. It's what it was designed to do. It is a pain in the * to cut/shape. It weighs a ton. It is difficult to cut/shape but is has good mechanical attachment properties.
I'd use the Homasote (or similar product) under the track as primary road bed and use the styrofoam for scenic bases.
Styrofoam has almost no sound deadening properties. It's a THERMAL insulation product. It is light in weight and can be sculpted to make scenery. It has extremely poor mechanical attachment properties (like screws/nails). It takes plaster and paint well. It's also quite flammable.
Homasote is a sound deadener. It's what it was designed to do. It is a pain in the * to cut/shape. It weighs a ton. It is difficult to cut/shape but is has good mechanical attachment properties.
I'd use the Homasote (or similar product) under the track as primary road bed and use the styrofoam for scenic bases.
quote:Originally posted by chuck:
I'd use the Homasote (or similar product) under the track as primary road bed and use the styrofoam for scenic bases.
What Chuck said. I have always wondered why people started putting Styrofoam over the entire layout - does little for noise and is easily damaged during layout construction - complicates everything. Even homosote is only needed as roadbed for noise deadening if desired. No need to cover other surfaces with it. My choice is Homabed, pre-cut homosote roadbed.
Homabed
If the Styrofoam's purpose is to provide a means of recessing scenery below track level, then it would be better to use an open grid benchwork system that would really allow you to create valleys, not the 2" or so you might get from Styrofoam.
The wholesale use of Styrofoam might have begun when module builders started going for extremely light-weight portable units constructed almost entirely of Styrofoam. Somehow it carried over to home layouts, and the urban legend of using it as sound deadening somehow began and was passed on.
Jim
quote:the urban legend of using it as sound deadening somehow began and was passed on. Smile
I fell for that too when building our home layout over 2 years ago. Was surprised at how loud the sound was. Originally, I put carpet backing (soft foam) under 1" blue foam sheets down where the tracks where to go. It was so loud that I then reversed the arrangement - foam down against the plywood, with strips of the carpet backing under the cork roadbed which made a tremendous difference.
We also used 2" pink foam/Luann ply on our club modular layout which is light and strong but much louder than we expected!
Actually, now that I think about it, the 'other' 3 rail magazine had just run a series of articles on a 4 x 8 foot layout "You can Build" that used 2" pink foam on plywood. It WAS good for cutting below grade topographical features like gullies, streams, and the like.
Another consideration could be a product called "Quiet Brace". I have used this for my layouts for over 20 years. It meets all of the requirements stated above including sound deadening plus it is fairly light in weight. It can be cut with a box cutter or with any traditional powered cutting tool. I used it over the entire layout including upper and lower levels because one can simply plant scenery into its surface. Quiet Brace is available at most Home Depot or Lowes but can be found at certain local hardware building centers. It costs from $7 to $10 for a 4 by 8 foot sheet.
Alan
Alan
The only plus I can see in using the foam board for a roadbed base would be is that you could contour the roadbed with ditches on either side with a foam wire cutter.
Of course I still would use cork above the foam and plywood below it, and I would use adhesives instead of nails or screws to hold the track down.
Of course I still would use cork above the foam and plywood below it, and I would use adhesives instead of nails or screws to hold the track down.
quote:Originally posted by leavingtracks:
Another consideration could be a product called "Quiet Brace". I have used this for my layouts for over 20 years. It meets all of the requirements stated above including sound deadening plus it is fairly light in weight. It can be cut with a box cutter or with any traditional powered cutting tool. I used it over the entire layout including upper and lower levels because one can simply plant scenery into its surface. Quiet Brace is available at most Home Depot or Lowes but can be found at certain local hardware building centers. It costs from $7 to $10 for a 4 by 8 foot sheet.
Alan
I am currently going to use quiet brace over my layout ( 6 sheets). my question due you put it down then paint over it or paint it before instillation and what paint is best to cover the tarish material without bleeding through I am thinking of using some latex paint that I have left from painting interior rooms
Question about Quiet Brace:
Does it hold spikes, tacks, etc as well as Homasote?
It would be nice to have a readily available replacement for Homasote.
Perhaps a trip to Home Depot is in order.
Andre
Does it hold spikes, tacks, etc as well as Homasote?
It would be nice to have a readily available replacement for Homasote.
Perhaps a trip to Home Depot is in order.
Andre
I am a Homosote guy. Its a good sound reducer, holds tacks and nails, but is messy to cut.
Dave and Andre....
Quiet Brace has no problem holding screws, tacks, nails...whatever. The key is to not allow the screw / nail to go all the way through into the wood. I use latex interior house paint to seal it. Go to the "OOPS" section of any local paint store, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot...etc. and you will usually find a color that is acceptable as a base at around half price!!
Alan
Quiet Brace has no problem holding screws, tacks, nails...whatever. The key is to not allow the screw / nail to go all the way through into the wood. I use latex interior house paint to seal it. Go to the "OOPS" section of any local paint store, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot...etc. and you will usually find a color that is acceptable as a base at around half price!!
Alan
I've had good luck using Celotex sheathing board; not as a top cover over the entire layout, but as roadbed cut with 45-degree angle slopes on the sides. I see Alan has had good luck with Quiet Brace, and I think the Celotex equivalent is called Sound Stop. I'll admit I just used regular outdoor sheathing from Home Cheapo although I don't see it there anymore. I also think there was a lawsuit claiming asbestos damage from some of their older products, but I believe today's Celotex materials are fine.
Celotex is cheaper than Homasote and offers more sound deadening ability. My only warning in using it is... make all your cuts OUTSIDE!! This stuff is very dusty and needs to be sealed with paint before you start installing it.
FJ
Celotex is cheaper than Homasote and offers more sound deadening ability. My only warning in using it is... make all your cuts OUTSIDE!! This stuff is very dusty and needs to be sealed with paint before you start installing it.
FJ
Attaching Styrofoam to Styrofoam I use Great Stuff.
Once that stuff dries the foam pieces are locked together for carving painting scenic-ing.
Once that stuff dries the foam pieces are locked together for carving painting scenic-ing.
I used 1 1/2" pink styrofoam on my last layout and did not notice a lot of sound deadening, it seemed just as loud. I plan on using either quiet brace or celotex on the layout I'm currently building.
Paul
Paul
I guess its all relative, but I thought pink insulation made a huge difference in sound versus what fastrack sounds like on plywood 
Homosote 440, which resists moisture. Holds track screws very well. Glued to 5/8" A-D plywood it quiets the train noise quite a bit. Only drawback is when you cut it with a saw ... VERY DUSTY! Have a place where you can do the cutting away from the trainroom, like a garage.
We also paint it with grey water-based paint from Metro Recycling, at cheap per gallon. Makes a nice undercoat.
We also paint it with grey water-based paint from Metro Recycling, at cheap per gallon. Makes a nice undercoat.
quote:Originally posted by RickO:
I guess its all relative, but I thought pink insulation made a huge difference in sound versus what fastrack sounds like on plywood
Hi Rick, if you really wont to make a difference with the sound coming from Fast Track try using some soft foam such as the product used under floating hardwood floors. Cut the foam so it fulls the underside of the Fast Track, Lay this over Homasote being careful not to run your mounting screws through the Homasote and into the plywood.
To me it makes the track run much quieter. But try a few feet only at first, sound can be relative to each listener.
Though Fast Track is a great system and most of us have alot of good things to say about it, it's sound quality is not one of them.
MTH's Real Track is probably the most quite of all the preformed track systems, but I feel the above technique improves the sound level of that as well.
Homasote for me hands down. Messy with a saw?...Yes. I cut all of mine with a utility knife=0 mess. A straight edge and a sharp blade worked great, with curved sections it took me alittle longer but not much, just had to cut on the dotted line... 
Or cut everything straight and make a bunch of curf cuts and presto. It really was not hard or a pain in the bleep to do it this way. I also paint mine on all sides to seal it from the moisture with whatever latex I have that's close to my ballast color.
Or cut everything straight and make a bunch of curf cuts and presto. It really was not hard or a pain in the bleep to do it this way. I also paint mine on all sides to seal it from the moisture with whatever latex I have that's close to my ballast color.
I used to use Homasote[on now dismantled layouts]. Working with Homoasote is a pain in the posterior and keep in mind that it is compressed paper with abundant adhesive in it.
Now, in my old age, I use extruded construction foam with poly skin removed and securely glued to the plywood and the 1" mass enhances the slight sound modification of foam. I use cork roadbed over the foam for a track profile. Foam/cork is not as sound deadening as Homasote. Foam is not easily ignited but would melt with fumes[not open flame]in case it was ignited. [take some outside and try to get a continous flame with a propane torch].
My experience with flat plywood/foam benchwork is that carpet on the floor below has more sound abatement qualities than other topside treatment. However,if the underneath is stacked solid with cardboard boxes the carpet is not as effective for reduction.
I use 1-1/4" screws down thru ties,cork and 1/2" foam to attach flextrack until after ballasting whereupon I remove the screws repair the holes and color with Sharpies. A sound engineer from the Ordnance Plant in Kingsport made tests on various layouts back in the mid '90s and concluded that with wood ties, cork and foam, screws did not make "a dimes worth of difference in noise" whether in or out. Nevertheless I still remove them.
If using 2" or thicker extruded construction foam under flextrack [or rigid sectional]and needing to hold it in place after bending for curve arcs, install 3/4" dia. wood dowels in the foam to accept track retaining screws. We used a 3/4 spade bit to drill out the foam to receive the 1-1/4" dowel plugs and glued them in place with white glue. Worked out well.
Sound tests showed that celetex or similar on the ceiling and wall plus floor carpet was the most effective sound abatement treatment. As for me I don't have great enough concern over model train sound to go to expensive extremes for sound abatement.
Now, in my old age, I use extruded construction foam with poly skin removed and securely glued to the plywood and the 1" mass enhances the slight sound modification of foam. I use cork roadbed over the foam for a track profile. Foam/cork is not as sound deadening as Homasote. Foam is not easily ignited but would melt with fumes[not open flame]in case it was ignited. [take some outside and try to get a continous flame with a propane torch].
My experience with flat plywood/foam benchwork is that carpet on the floor below has more sound abatement qualities than other topside treatment. However,if the underneath is stacked solid with cardboard boxes the carpet is not as effective for reduction.
I use 1-1/4" screws down thru ties,cork and 1/2" foam to attach flextrack until after ballasting whereupon I remove the screws repair the holes and color with Sharpies. A sound engineer from the Ordnance Plant in Kingsport made tests on various layouts back in the mid '90s and concluded that with wood ties, cork and foam, screws did not make "a dimes worth of difference in noise" whether in or out. Nevertheless I still remove them.
If using 2" or thicker extruded construction foam under flextrack [or rigid sectional]and needing to hold it in place after bending for curve arcs, install 3/4" dia. wood dowels in the foam to accept track retaining screws. We used a 3/4 spade bit to drill out the foam to receive the 1-1/4" dowel plugs and glued them in place with white glue. Worked out well.
Sound tests showed that celetex or similar on the ceiling and wall plus floor carpet was the most effective sound abatement treatment. As for me I don't have great enough concern over model train sound to go to expensive extremes for sound abatement.
How are homosote and OSB related?
My layout, appx. 6 x 8, is built on 2" pink foam over a frame of 2 x 4s. There is no need to add plywood underneath if you have enough horizontal members and are careful about where you place the seams.
The advantages of foam are that it is a) easy to cut/sand/drill/poke holes in for signs and trees, b) lightweight but strong enough, unless you plan on standing on it, c) dimensionally stable, and d) it does not absorb moisture like homasote. I used homasote once for a little apartment layout and it smelled moldy after a humid Boston summer.
Also, all the scraps can be shaped with knife, rasp and sandpaper into lightweight hill and mountain forms. I was able to do much of the "dirty work" of landscaping in the driveway, and then carry the nearly-finished forms up to the attic for a final coat of foliage.
Good luck with the layout!
The advantages of foam are that it is a) easy to cut/sand/drill/poke holes in for signs and trees, b) lightweight but strong enough, unless you plan on standing on it, c) dimensionally stable, and d) it does not absorb moisture like homasote. I used homasote once for a little apartment layout and it smelled moldy after a humid Boston summer.
Also, all the scraps can be shaped with knife, rasp and sandpaper into lightweight hill and mountain forms. I was able to do much of the "dirty work" of landscaping in the driveway, and then carry the nearly-finished forms up to the attic for a final coat of foliage.
Good luck with the layout!
Thanks everyone for your replies. Looks like I'm going to stay with Homasote or try Quietbrace.
I see no benefit in using styrofoam for sound deadening.
Michael, Homasote is a grey colored, pressed soft board and used as a top layer over the plywood more for sound deadening purposes.
OSB stands for Oriented stranded board. Which is made of wood chips and scrap lumber pieces and mixed together with glue. Then pressed into sheets like plywood. It is cheaper then plywood but to me seems a little messier when cutting it.
I see no benefit in using styrofoam for sound deadening.
quote:How are homosote and OSB related?
Michael, Homasote is a grey colored, pressed soft board and used as a top layer over the plywood more for sound deadening purposes.
OSB stands for Oriented stranded board. Which is made of wood chips and scrap lumber pieces and mixed together with glue. Then pressed into sheets like plywood. It is cheaper then plywood but to me seems a little messier when cutting it.
Homosote because I got a bunch of it for free and it's what every one else was doing, so I figured it couldn't be bad.
quote:Originally posted by gregj410:
Homosote because I got a bunch of it for free and it's what every one else was doing, so I figured it couldn't be bad.
How did you cut the beveled edge?
quote:Originally posted by gg1man:quote:Originally posted by RickO:
I guess its all relative, but I thought pink insulation made a huge difference in sound versus what fastrack sounds like on plywood
Hi Rick, if you really wont to make a difference with the sound coming from Fast Track try using some soft foam such as the product used under floating hardwood floors. Cut the foam so it fulls the underside of the Fast Track, Lay this over Homasote being careful not to run your mounting screws through the Homasote and into the plywood.
To me it makes the track run much quieter. But try a few feet only at first, sound can be relative to each listener.
Though Fast Track is a great system and most of us have alot of good things to say about it, it's sound quality is not one of them.
MTH's Real Track is probably the most quite of all the preformed track systems, but I feel the above technique improves the sound level of that as well.
Thanks for the tip Mario, I'm actually satisfied with the sound deadening from the pink stuff. I imagine oprating speeds could be playing a factor here as well as I run my trains at slow prototypical slower speeds as opposed to a blistering PW highball
Buy neither.
Go to an upscale lumber yard and get "sound board." Easy to work with. cuts easily without a mess and it takes paint very well. I do not think the "Men's Store" carries it and neither does Lowes.
It used to cost about $18.00 for a 4x8 board and you can just lay it over plywood and use Liquid Nails to hunker it down.
Go to an upscale lumber yard and get "sound board." Easy to work with. cuts easily without a mess and it takes paint very well. I do not think the "Men's Store" carries it and neither does Lowes.
It used to cost about $18.00 for a 4x8 board and you can just lay it over plywood and use Liquid Nails to hunker it down.
Hi Milt:
Do you have a brand-name for the "soundboard"?
Thanks.
Andre
Do you have a brand-name for the "soundboard"?
Thanks.
Andre
Yardmaster,
I've been using Homosote since 1959. It is your best bet to eliminate annoying rumble. Sure it does cost alot, however, it is well worth the investment.
God Bless,
I've been using Homosote since 1959. It is your best bet to eliminate annoying rumble. Sure it does cost alot, however, it is well worth the investment.
God Bless,
Well I covered my table with 1/4 foam . The guys at the bigbox stores looked at me like I was from planet X when I asked about sound board.One of the old guys said he knew what Homasote was but hadn't seen any in years.
So I had a big choice Foam or Foam .I don't think that having it thick makes much difference .If you put down 1/2,3/4, or 1 inch stuff it just increases the chance that your switches and track will be uneven cause the screws got pulled down to far.
Even with 3 trains running at the same time it's not loud.
David
So I had a big choice Foam or Foam .I don't think that having it thick makes much difference .If you put down 1/2,3/4, or 1 inch stuff it just increases the chance that your switches and track will be uneven cause the screws got pulled down to far.
Even with 3 trains running at the same time it's not loud.
David
quote:Originally posted by Garfield:quote:Originally posted by gregj410:
Homosote because I got a bunch of it for free and it's what every one else was doing, so I figured it couldn't be bad.
How did you cut the beveled edge?
Router table or shaper with a 45 bit
Mick, who is absolutely terrified of thunder, will attest to the sound deadening characteristics of Homasote. There's no "rolling sound of thunder" when this train and the other one on the back of the layout are running singly or at the same time.
Incidentally, when a thunderstorm comes through, Mick's favorite place to hide from the sound is in the basement under the train layout!
Incidentally, when a thunderstorm comes through, Mick's favorite place to hide from the sound is in the basement under the train layout!
Hi Dewey....I just posted a new topic on using 2" insulation. The wood dowel idea sounds good for securing track, but looks like a lot of work? For ech piece of track I guess you would mark the 2 screw holes with 'prick' in the foam. Drill out the space for, say a 1" long wood doel with 1/2" diameter, glue it in and the screw into later. Sound correct? thanks1 Mark B.
Originally Posted by Dewey Trogdon:
I used to use Homasote[on now dismantled layouts]. Working with Homoasote is a pain in the posterior and keep in mind that it is compressed paper with abundant adhesive in it.
Now, in my old age, I use extruded construction foam with poly skin removed and securely glued to the plywood and the 1" mass enhances the slight sound modification of foam. I use cork roadbed over the foam for a track profile. Foam/cork is not as sound deadening as Homasote. Foam is not easily ignited but would melt with fumes[not open flame]in case it was ignited. [take some outside and try to get a continous flame with a propane torch].
My experience with flat plywood/foam benchwork is that carpet on the floor below has more sound abatement qualities than other topside treatment. However,if the underneath is stacked solid with cardboard boxes the carpet is not as effective for reduction.
I use 1-1/4" screws down thru ties,cork and 1/2" foam to attach flextrack until after ballasting whereupon I remove the screws repair the holes and color with Sharpies. A sound engineer from the Ordnance Plant in Kingsport made tests on various layouts back in the mid '90s and concluded that with wood ties, cork and foam, screws did not make "a dimes worth of difference in noise" whether in or out. Nevertheless I still remove them.
If using 2" or thicker extruded construction foam under flextrack [or rigid sectional]and needing to hold it in place after bending for curve arcs, install 3/4" dia. wood dowels in the foam to accept track retaining screws. We used a 3/4 spade bit to drill out the foam to receive the 1-1/4" dowel plugs and glued them in place with white glue. Worked out well.
Sound tests showed that celetex or similar on the ceiling and wall plus floor carpet was the most effective sound abatement treatment. As for me I don't have great enough concern over model train sound to go to expensive extremes for sound abatement.
Now, in my old age, I use extruded construction foam with poly skin removed and securely glued to the plywood and the 1" mass enhances the slight sound modification of foam. I use cork roadbed over the foam for a track profile. Foam/cork is not as sound deadening as Homasote. Foam is not easily ignited but would melt with fumes[not open flame]in case it was ignited. [take some outside and try to get a continous flame with a propane torch].
My experience with flat plywood/foam benchwork is that carpet on the floor below has more sound abatement qualities than other topside treatment. However,if the underneath is stacked solid with cardboard boxes the carpet is not as effective for reduction.
I use 1-1/4" screws down thru ties,cork and 1/2" foam to attach flextrack until after ballasting whereupon I remove the screws repair the holes and color with Sharpies. A sound engineer from the Ordnance Plant in Kingsport made tests on various layouts back in the mid '90s and concluded that with wood ties, cork and foam, screws did not make "a dimes worth of difference in noise" whether in or out. Nevertheless I still remove them.
If using 2" or thicker extruded construction foam under flextrack [or rigid sectional]and needing to hold it in place after bending for curve arcs, install 3/4" dia. wood dowels in the foam to accept track retaining screws. We used a 3/4 spade bit to drill out the foam to receive the 1-1/4" dowel plugs and glued them in place with white glue. Worked out well.
Sound tests showed that celetex or similar on the ceiling and wall plus floor carpet was the most effective sound abatement treatment. As for me I don't have great enough concern over model train sound to go to expensive extremes for sound abatement.
Homasote is the best. I've never used it. The price is crazy always has been. I get satisfactory results with fiber board that is 1/3 the price. And when doing a large layout, that's another cost I'm not going to incur.
Originally Posted by Yardmaster:
Homasote board OR Styrofoam?
What is your choice and why!
I am in the process of building my layout and always used Homasote board.
This time around I'm thinking of using Styrofoam.
What is your choice and why!
I am in the process of building my layout and always used Homasote board.
This time around I'm thinking of using Styrofoam.
I just finished my initial layout.
Lazy L
5 x 9 x 11
I used OSB Screwed to the rafters and then Glued Homosote to the OSB.
NO NAILS through the Homosote.
I am very pleased with the amount of sound deadening is has given me.
A few weeks back I read a post on here about laying down 2" Black HVAC Foam Padded tape under the Fastrack for even more sound deadening. I am going to try that on the back 11 and see if that has any sound absorbtion versus not having it. RESULTS Tonite.
Noise free! 
Not!
