How PS1 chugging and brake sounds work??

So, I know this may sound stupid to a number of you. Please, if you don't have something constructive to say - just don't even comment. Thanks.

OK - so I am well aware that the chugging sound and brakes sounds in PS1 steamers is voltage activated - but, there's got to be a bit more to it, because if you disconnect the motor from the board, you don't get any chug whether or not the voltage is up or down. So, is there a feedback system in Proto-Sound that only allows the chugging to fire when the motor is drawing amps? What's the secret here?

The reason I ask is because I'm thinking of upgrading my Big Boy to PS2 or PS3 - I'm already missing the smooth slow steady speed control that PS2+ offer. But, I absolutely love the old chugging sound the Big Boys had in PS1. So, my thinking is to keep the old board and put it in an auxiliary water tender (and just wire straight up to the coupler) or something I can trail behind big boy so I can still make PS1 Big Boy sounds when I want to....but, without the motor attachment, I'm SOL on the chug sound right? ....What if I put any old can motor inside the water tender with the board and just set it sideways to freewheel discreetly so it could extract the chug sound when running conventional. Would that work?

Just an idea. Thanks for any positive feedback.

Original Post

I test many boards with out motor attached and can get sounds.  So not sure what is up with yours.  The details of how this all work, are lost unfortunately, and QSI was not real forth right with how it works.  G

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I know it's loosely coupled with the voltage, but it's the voltage on the motor.  If you reach out and stall the motor as it's running, the chuffs will stop.  Like George says, if there's motor voltage, it should chuff.  If, for some reason that's not consistent, add a 5W 100 ohm resistor as a motor load.  I don't know why you'd need this, but if you do...

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I know it's loosely coupled with the voltage, but it's the voltage on the motor.  If you reach out and stall the motor as it's running, the chuffs will stop.  Like George says, if there's motor voltage, it should chuff.  If, for some reason that's not consistent, add a 5W 100 ohm resistor as a motor load.  I don't know why you'd need this, but if you do...

You are a smart man

I will look for that 5W 100 ohm resister thanks. My reasoning is because I want to put Big Boy protosounds in my aux water tender behind my upgraded Big Boy so I can silence PS2 and still enjoy the sounds of PS1 when running conventional with smooth speed control and all the running benefits of PS2 if I want. I like flexibility and I love the PS1 Big Boy sounds, but I want the best of both worlds and I want to be able to choose one or the other with ease. This makes great sense. Thank you!

That's going to be a formidable wiring job. The PS-1 board is going to have to control the loco to get the chuffing sound of Proto one. Which means a long tether to the locomotive through the tender. If the motor is disconnected from the circuit, you normally get a uncontrollable rapid fire exhaust sound.    I'm not sure if the resistor added will screw up the chuffing as it will see the motor drawing a heavy load. I don't see it as working out.

Chuck Sartor posted:

That's going to be a formidable wiring job. The PS-1 board is going to have to control the loco to get the chuffing sound of Proto one. Which means a long tether to the locomotive through the tender. If the motor is disconnected from the circuit, you normally get a uncontrollable rapid fire exhaust sound.    I'm not sure if the resistor added will screw up the chuffing as it will see the motor drawing a heavy load. I don't see it as working out.

One of my original ideas was to just leave a motor hooked up to the board and set it on it's side so it can free wheel in the water tender unhooked to anything, but retain the proper control over the sound corresponding with the voltage applied.

 

I could probably also add a blade or fin to the edge of the motor and essentially turn in into a cooling fan for the whole QSI board - creating a dual purpose.

Well you can try it of course, but the motor won't be drawing a load as the speed is increased. How were you planning on switching between the 2 systems?  The proto one system won't work with DCS of course. In conventional, how would you blow just one or the other whistle, and not both at the same time? Same with chuffing.

I would just upgrade to protosound 3 and not try to incorporate the original PS1. That is only asking for damage to the PS-3 board. Not trying to be negative, but there are going to be unexpected problems.

Also don't forget the PS-1 system needs a 9 volt battery to work and the PS-3 does not use a battery.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Well you can try it of course, but the motor won't be drawing a load as the speed is increased. How were you planning on switching between the 2 systems?  The proto one system won't work with DCS of course. In conventional, how would you blow just one or the other whistle, and not both at the same time? Same with chuffing.

I would just upgrade to protosound 3 and not try to incorporate the original PS1. That is only asking for damage to the PS-3 board. Not trying to be negative, but there are going to be unexpected problems.

Also don't forget the PS-1 system needs a 9 volt battery to work and the PS-3 does not use a battery.

The way I thought of his was as follows:

-The Big Boy would be fully upgraded to PS2 or PS3 and run as should after an upgrade.

-The removed PS1 sound guts would be put inside a separate auxiliary UP water tender (from PS1 era) or a boxcar with center rails pick ups, and the QSI board and speaker would be located in there - totally separate from the Big Boy (which is now PS3). It could be ran behind any engine now and sound like the old PS1 Big Boy. 

-A spare PS1 motor would be attached to the board, both housed inside the water tender or boxcar and not attached to any wheels....just freewheeling inside to provide proper feedback for chuffing sound when voltage is varied. (perhaps I could put a blade on the end of the motor spindle to create fan cooling for the board, but that's just an extra thought).

When running conventional, I could turn down the sound on the PS3 Big Boy tender and turn up the sound on my custom Water Tender or Boxcar with this PS1 Big Boy rig and now I have no sound conflict or crossover. Then, if I want to go back to the PS3 sound, I just reverse the process and/or remove the water tender or turn off a power switch to it so the PS1 electronics inside so they aren't needlessly frying at 18volts if I want to run PS3 Big Boy in DCS mode.

-The idea was never to have both sound systems playing simultaneously - that would be pointless. I could if running conventional, but it makes no sense.

 

 

 

Chuck Sartor posted:

Well in theory it sound possible. But that is going to be crammed in like a Sardine can. Large double stack circuit board, speaker, 9 volt battery and a motor and motor bracket, volume pot. Just my thoughts.

LOL - yes, perhaps. I'd like to try and make a project out of it. If I fail, I fail. But worth a shot to me. I'll probably go with a BCR and just removed the red mock-9v shell to reduce space.

If I get around to this at some point, and it proves successful, I will post a video and share it here.

If anyone else wants to try and it and beats me to it, feel free to share!

One of the joys that PS-2 and 3 have to offer, is the perfect timing of the sound with the speed, drivers, and smoke puffs. It will be interesting to see how close your project sound will come to this. A variable resistor or pot on the PS-1 motor may better help find the sweet spot then a fixed resistance.

Dave

Chuck's point is valid, this sounds a bit like a square peg and a round hole.

Dave Zucal posted:

One of the joys that PS-2 and 3 have to offer, is the perfect timing of the sound with the speed, drivers, and smoke puffs. It will be interesting to see how close your project sound will come to this. A variable resistor or pot on the PS-1 motor may better help find the sweet spot then a fixed resistance.

Right. I'm not going to be terribly worried about the sync because PS1 was never really capable of perfect sync anyway. Plus, with this being an articulated loco, it's too hard to watch the wheels and smoke and see if the "beats" match, which was one reason why I never used to mind PS1 articulated locos. There's so much happening at once - it blends better. 

One thing I do see as a potential nightmare is altering the chuff rate without a loco to watch going around the track - but I'll have to trial and error on that one until I get it close. Guessing, more than likely I'll have to adjust the chuff start voltage upwards (around 8-9v) as PS2 engines don't get moving steadily usually until about 9-10v.

First I need to find an old Yellow UP Premier water tender with proto-coupler because doing this to a boxcar is making me cringe more and more. If anyone knows of one or wants to sell a UP aux tender, email me. Thanks.

Without a load on the motor because it is freewheeling, even at low voltage you're going to get fast sounds.  I think you're just going to drive yourself crazy trying to do this, but I feel your pain.  I have a couple PS-1 locomotives that I just have to keep the sounds on, and so haven't upgraded to command yet as much as I want them in command.

You do have flexibility to load any PS-2 or PS-3 BBoy sound files in the PS-32 board that comes in the upgrade kit.  Have you listened to them, I do not think the PS-1 from the 90s is better than the later versions.  But it is your engine.  G

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I am in agreement with George. I have not found the PS1 sounds to be superior to PS2 sounds in any way but it is you loco in fact, far from it in my opinion. This sounds like a huge pain to get up and running as you have a formidable job ahead of you just to get the PS2/3 upgrade done, then to add to that everything for the PS1 in the tender. The PS1 should fit in the tender just fine as it is already in a tender but I suggest you go to the MTH website and listen to some of the big boy sound files first.

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Matt Makens posted:

I am in agreement with George. I have not found the PS1 sounds to be superior to PS2 sounds in any way but it is you loco in fact, far from it in my opinion. This sounds like a huge pain to get up and running as you have a formidable job ahead of you just to get the PS2/3 upgrade done, then to add to that everything for the PS1 in the tender. The PS1 should fit in the tender just fine as it is already in a tender but I suggest you go to the MTH website and listen to some of the big boy sound files first.

I have listened to them and I like them. I agree that they are superior, or I wouldn't dare consider the upgrade. But the PS1 Big Boy sounds are like a bad nostalgic high for me. They bring back a lot of good memories of a better time and those were the sounds / that was the engine that got me hooked on 3-Rail trains. .....It just feels like I'd be throwing my poor old favorite grandpa out on the street to make room for a newborn because he's old...how could I do that? I want him around - always.

The only real solution was the DD Equalizer and TAS also had the UCUB and later the UCUB2 boards.  All are now many years out of production.

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