I never said never. After a near miss with the ROW FT and a few bad experiences with dealers I decided I would only pre-order if it was something I really wanted. Really wanted meant something I wanted bad enough to pull the money out of my current hobby budget and set it aside. Since then I pre-ordered a few items, mostly from Weaver, and I was happy with those purchases. There were a few items I missed out on, and yet somehow I have survived.
Im guilty in going back on my word. I preordered [abeit not as much from this latest Lionel catalog]. Im concentration on paying in cash on my outstanding preorders, esp with Golden Gate Depot. This latest Amtrak Amfleet/ viewliner order is a killer!
@Madockawando posted:I now have found my self wanting to collect small and obscure road names that service New England, Quebec, Ontario and the Maritime Provinces.
The Quebec North Shore and Labrador Dash-9 fits that. I missed out on the Lionel Providence and Worcester, I got the Central Maine and I am looking for the Central Vermont and the Central Maine and Quebec Railway (which Lionel has not made yet)
You need to strike up an acquaintance with a custom painter. 
I always pre order and have not been disappointed. I get what I want at a discounted price, but I'm also not a rivet counter and if something is a little off I don't get upset, after all, it is three rail "O" gauge.
If I were very concerned about exact detail, color and model type I would be modeling in "two rail scale" or HO.
Everyone wants museum quality models , but at five and dime prices and that's not going to happen.
So if your a person that is very particular then do yourself a favor and don't pre order, wait till the item is released and find a LHS where you can examine the finished product before you buy.
@NYC 428 posted:I always pre order and have not been disappointed. I get what I want at a discounted price, but I'm also not a rivet counter and if something is a little off I don't get upset, after all, it is three rail "O" gauge.
Oh boy, there goes that excuse again.
If I were very concerned about exact detail, color and model type I would be modeling in "two rail scale" or HO.
Apparently, you've never seen some of the very realistic layouts/ modelling posted on this forum.
Maybe check out some of those OGR layout videos you have access to with your digital subscription.
Everyone wants museum quality models , but at five and dime prices and that's not going to happen.
$1000-$2000 is five and dime? Theres a Dollar General near me, but they don't sell anything there anywhere near $1000
So if your a person that is very particular then do yourself a favor and don't pre order, wait till the item is released and find a LHS where you can examine the finished product before you buy.
Good idea.
BTW, many of the mistakes Lionel has made, are things they did right on previous runs, especially colors.
There is absolutely no justification for a 4 wheel freight truck and coupler to have issues when they've been making them for over 100 years.
@NYC 428 posted:I always pre order and have not been disappointed. I get what I want at a discounted price, but I'm also not a rivet counter and if something is a little off I don't get upset, after all, it is three rail "O" gauge.
If I were very concerned about exact detail, color and model type I would be modeling in "two rail scale" or HO.
Everyone wants museum quality models , but at five and dime prices and that's not going to happen.
So if your a person that is very particular then do yourself a favor and don't pre order, wait till the item is released and find a LHS where you can examine the finished product before you buy.
Actually, many of us just wish Big Orange would live up to it's previous, respectable standard when their Steamers were made in Korea in the Railsounds 5.0 and early Legacy period.
Not living up to your own QC standards and removing previously standard features.....while increasing the price....is a bad business model, to me at least.
I've pre-ordered trains since - oh - 1974??? I ordered the Lionel Spirit of '76 set from Alison Cox of Seattle fame nearly a year in advance as the first Spirit trains were released in late '74/'75.
Problems pre-ordering over the years? No, not really. Regrets, ever? Nope, not really.
If I want it and can afford it, I order it.
I've pre-ordered quite a bit of SP stuff from Lionel over the past year or so. The trains are arriving. Problems? Nope. At least not yet.
If I were to think of not pre-ordering, thoughts would go to Lionel's SP Lark loc (now in my possession) and how very quickly it will be UNavailable.
I always pre order and have not been disappointed. I get what I want at a discounted price, but I'm also not a rivet counter and if something is a little off I don't get upset, after all, it is three rail "O" gauge.
Oh boy, there goes that excuse again.
No excuse just the facts, three rail "O" will never be up to the standards of HO.
If I were very concerned about exact detail, color and model type I would be modeling in "two rail scale" or HO.
Apparently, you've never seen some of the very realistic layouts/ modelling posted on this forum.
Maybe check out some of those OGR layout videos you have access to with your digital subscription.
I've seen the photos and videos of the excellent modeling on this forum. But these creations are produces by people that put a lot of time and effort into adding, changing and reworking not only scenes on the layout but also changing, adding or re-painting there equipment to meat there high standards and not crying about the lack of same by the manufacture.
Everyone wants museum quality models , but at five and dime prices and that's not going to happen.
$1000-$2000 is five and dime? Theres a Dollar General near me, but they don't sell anything there anywhere near $1000
So if your a person that is very particular then do yourself a favor and don't pre order, wait till the item is released and find a LHS where you can examine the finished product before you buy.
I didn't know Dollar General sold trains But I have seen a number of posts referring to Menards offerings ($20 to 25) and crying about poor trucks and lack of detail.
In any case, I don't think you'll find a museum quality price for less then $5,000 to 10,000 and it will be a static display at that.
Good idea.
BTW, many of the mistakes Lionel has made, are things they did right on previous runs, especially colors.
There is absolutely no justification for a 4 wheel freight truck and coupler to have issues when they've been making them for over 100 years.
All I can say is MADE IN CHINA !! The American manufactures have little to say about QC. Once you send your tooling over there it becomes the property of the company producing the models. If you don't like what they turn out ....its too bad, want your tooling back,,,pay for it.
@NYC 428 posted:No excuse just the facts, three rail "O" will never be up to the standards of HO.
HO doesn't have a "standard", bub. It's a scale.
I try to like all model trains.....but some people have an.....attitude.
There's just as much junk in HO as there is in practically every scale.
@Bill Webb posted:75% of what we get from Lionel has something that is broken when received. We generally don’t preorder and we seldom order Lionel at all. But we do buy new trains and have six engines and a bunch of Virginian hoppers on order from Scott.
For us, Lionel has taken the fun out of buying their products and we own a tremendous amount of Lionel purchased over the last 50+ years. We would love to again be a happy Lionel customer.
I enjoy Lionel LC starter sets, especially the passenger train sets like the recent Blue Comet and the Super Chief. Both winners. BUT... you are correct that quality control can be fleeting.
So I have a workaround and it never fails me: I’m an Amazon prime member and I buy Lionel starter sets ONLY from Amazon. Why? Because if it doesn’t work, I have 30 days to return and they pay the shipping. I am guaranteed to wind up with a working set or it goes back at no loss to me.
I have not had to send many sets back. Lucky I guess. But I did send back two Hogwarts Express sets before giving up.
The Amazon idea is a good one, but you can also try using a credit card that offers an extended warranty and purchase protection.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:You need to strike up an acquaintance with a custom painter.
Yes! I am looking to have a conversation with custom painters. I have a couple locomotives in mind as well as some 6464 box cars . If you know any please have them contact me . Thanks!
Christine J. Braden is one that has done work for a number of people here, she's probably a good one to contact.
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Yes you are hosing the dealer. He based his order on your preorder. Sadly our local hobby shop has been hosed a few times as well. He can't control what/how it get's made. If you don't want the risk, don't preorder. It hurts the dealer.
@Jim 1939 posted:Yes you are hosing the dealer. He based his order on your preorder. Sadly our local hobby shop has been hosed a few times as well. He can't control what/how it get's made. If you don't want the risk, don't preorder. It hurts the dealer.
I've had (one of the reasons why I stopped pre-ordering) the reverse hosing from a major dealer, twice.
Pre-ordered, received email confirmation, never received the product when I noticed that others who did not pre-order received the item in question. Called the dealer and was told, basically, sorry, sold out.
These happened to be popular items that were going for full price or higher - coincidence??
If the dealer didn't want the risk. he shouldn't take pre-orders. It hurts the customer.
The dealer is accepting your word that your gonna buy what you ordered. In your case that dealer would become an I don't buy from them anymore.
@Cogen1981 posted:Definitely relevant topic, there is one company who comes to mind, but I will not say.
I preordered this:
I got this:
The picture does not capture how bad the color is, it’s literally neon red.
The vendor who I will also not mention gave me some hassle when I exchanged it.
If you don’t want that flashy red thing, I’ll gladly buy it off your hands. 😉
@Lionelski posted:I've had (one of the reasons why I stopped pre-ordering) the reverse hosing from a major dealer, twice.
Pre-ordered, received email confirmation, never received the product when I noticed that others who did not pre-order received the item in question. Called the dealer and was told, basically, sorry, sold out.
These happened to be popular items that were going for full price or higher - coincidence??
If the dealer didn't want the risk. he shouldn't take pre-orders. It hurts the customer.
This happened to me twice with a very prominent dealer. I didn't make the pre-order though email but through a phone call. One of the times I called the person who answered was polite but just something about the way they talked I had the feeling they didn't write anything down or process my pre-order in any way. The other time I thought the pre-order actually got processed. The person seemed to be on the ball. I guess they were just confident. Both times I never received said item. I won't mention the store due to OGR rules and the fact I do not believe it was the fault of the store ownership/management. I didn't get either item, one because it was sold out and the other one because I just said the heck with it.
"In your case that dealer would become an I don't buy from them anymore." I felt that the store had hired a lazy employee or had a very poor system of pre-ordering so I did not blame the store. I still bought stuff on occasion from that store but I never did pre-order anything else from them.
A similar thing happened at my old LHS. I pre-ordered stuff from Atlas and it never arrived. I was told that the Atlas rep who took the pre-order never placed it. At least in this case the LHS owner was able to track down some of the pieces from another hobby shop and she got them for me without any shipping charges.
As for the original topic I never said I wouldn't ever again pre-order stuff. As a 2 railer you have to or you will be left out in the cold. Since I am 2 rail I haven't pre-ordered anything from Lionel since I was a 3 railer over 17 years ago. I had no problems with Lionel back then but as you all know things haven't been the same for Lionel over the years. If Lionel did offer 2 rail I have to say I might pre-order something and just pray there aren't any major issues.
Pre-order doesn't guarantee that you'll get your order. I pre-ordered an RK locomotive before the MTH closure announcement. When they were delivered late last year, my dealer didn't receive mine. Obviously, MTH didn't build enough. Fortunately, I was able to purchase one from a forum sponsor.
I swore off Lionel pre-orders after 2 Legacy locomotive (engineering) failures.
I currently have a 3rd rail locomotive set on order and an Atlas Trainman locomotive.
I likely won't pre-order anything anymore due more to the current global events than to quality control issues. I pre- ordered a bunch of autoracks from the Lionel 2018 catalog. They took two years to finally be made. By the time the dealer got them early last spring and they were shipped to my parcel pick-up place in the US (I live in Canada), the border was closed. Too much uncertainty now for me to want pre-order in the future.
@Jim 1939 posted:Yes you are hosing the dealer. He based his order on your preorder. Sadly our local hobby shop has been hosed a few times as well. He can't control what/how it get's made. If you don't want the risk, don't preorder. It hurts the dealer.
No....you are NOT hosing the dealer. It's a risk the dealer has to accept given what he sells.
The issue is to then be resolved between big orange and the dealer....not the consumer.
Do you not send a poorly cooked steak back to the kitchen b/c it hurts the restaurant owner?
I have one 3rdrail engine on pre order. There’s only one engine I’d pre order from Lionel. Otherwise I’m done with them. Every item I’ve purchased from big L has been defective one way or another over the past two years, either engines or rolling stock. So for the most part I’m done, I mostly have everything I need.
If you don't take what you promised to buy YES YOU are hosing the dealer. He's stuck with what YOU ordered.
If you have issue about buying what You ordered then don't preorder.
@Jim 1939 posted:If you don't take what you promised to buy YES YOU are hosing the dealer. He's stuck with what YOU ordered.
If you have issue about buying what You ordered then don't preorder.
In my opinion, saying the dealer is “stuck with what YOU ordered” is a ridiculous statement. The dealer is not prevented from selling it to someone else and as was the case for Pat’s Trains custom run J3A Hudson, it can be sold for a higher price because the pre-order discount no longer applies.
The only thing I ever pre-ordered in this hobby (other than inexpensive small items made by short-run vendors, like some 3D prints) was Bachmann's Baldwin class 10 2-6-2T "trench engine" in On30, and that was because I'd read about the pre-production samples and how well they ran. I ordered mine from Train World, so I knew I could cancel it if I needed. It showed up soon enough and you've seen it in OGR last year.
I'm also into other hobbies and pre-order items are a staple in some of them. For example, I'm into sci-fi stuff and that is a very common business model. Also common there is the forums choked with threads about vendors who take your money, promise forever, until you can no longer contest the charge, then you're out of the money for good. And most of the time, they get away with it until someone does a USPS complaint. I started reading those early on and have never pre-ordered anything like that because it's so common. People prey on the "gotta have this thing" mindset all the time, and there's a long line of suckers just itching to be their next victim.
Not Me. If I miss it, then so be it. Have it in stock and if I want it, I'll pay you then.
@Jim 1939 posted:If you don't take what you promised to buy YES YOU are hosing the dealer. He's stuck with what YOU ordered.
If you have issue about buying what You ordered then don't preorder.
I disagree entirely. This is the only leverage the customer has. No one should be forced to accept a product that isn’t what was described. That includes missing features, incorrect colors, and or misspellings. The dealer is free to blacklist the customer from preordering with them again.
I think the larger issue here is the dealer often has to deal with someone that thinks it's ok to refuse items again and again! However this same person continues to want to place pre-orders for several items a year. You have to place yourself in the shoes of both the dealer and consumer to understand how difficult a place this places both of them in. It's a shame that most of the product cannot be delivered as described as it would solve most of this unnecessary tension.
At the present time I'm not pre-ordering any Lionel. It's just too much of a crap shoot what color they might paint it.
Do I pre-order and, in some cases, make a pre-order down payment - yup. I only had trouble once - many years ago, the company went bankrupt and took my deposit with them - in the grand scheme of things a bit of a bummer but N.B.D.. On the other hand, all of the other experiences have been very positive and, in several instances, was the only way I could guarantee I would get the item - for example
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@jjm posted:The Amazon idea is a good one, but you can also try using a credit card that offers an extended warranty and purchase protection.
If I was not a Prime member I might go that way. But even the credit card protection has a layer of hassle that does not exist with Amazon. It is hassle free. I log into my account, check boxes, print a form, put train in shipping box, and UPS picks it up the next day. Done.
@Berkshire President posted:Do you not send a poorly cooked steak back to the kitchen b/c it hurts the restaurant owner?
Unless your having dinner at the Five and Dime.....then your S.O.L......
@Lionelski posted:I've had (one of the reasons why I stopped pre-ordering) the reverse hosing from a major dealer, twice.
Pre-ordered, received email confirmation, never received the product when I noticed that others who did not pre-order received the item in question. Called the dealer and was told, basically, sorry, sold out.
These happened to be popular items that were going for full price or higher - coincidence??
If the dealer didn't want the risk. he shouldn't take pre-orders. It hurts the customer.
If a dealer did that to me I would file a complaint with the state department of consumer affairs, with the better business bureau if they are a member, and probably also would write a letter to the train company letting them know how Joe Dealer treats their customers, if this is the full story then that dealer doesn't deserve the business. In a sense it is kind of like bait and switch tactics, the unit at your price isn't available, but they have this nice one at X dollars more; in your case, if you were buying it at his asking price, he likely would have it. I agree being a dealer is tough and I sympathize if a dealer pre orders, pays for it, then the person backs out, but then again how many of these guys act like they are doing them a favor? I made a somewhat sizeable purchase from one of the vendors who supports this board, and it couldn't have been better, they let me know how long they expected it to take to get it (they have a backlog apparently), when I recently inquired about the timing they let me know the eta,very nicely.
Gonna get some people mad on here, but just based on my own experience, a lot of the LHS's and small dealers I have dealt with forget that the customer in a sense is doing them a favor by buying there. No, it doesn't mean customers have the right to be abusive, or act like a ****** (substitute your favorite aphorism for nasty things), but often when I talk about bad service I get "you know what they face from customers?" Well, I am not those customers, treat me with respect and honesty, and if I am a bad customer, then treat me like that *shrug* Had a store recently when I was looking at something that was NOS (and therefore not under warranty) who was trying to charge me pretty much the full price for it, and when I mentioned it was not new, had no warranty and they basically said they didn't have any responsibility, his snotty response was "take it or leave it,buddy"....and I left it. That same guy in a couple of years will moan about the unfair competition from the internet, with the way he was selling his stuff I could buy from the shadiest place on the net and not be treated any worse.
I've pretty much have had mostly good luck with pre-orders. My LHS has never got it wrong except once when I gave up asking when my engine was in. Another year went by and it had been in his case and was being demoed to other customers. When I finally asked again and he pulled it out of his demo case, I did not accept it as a new pre-order and did not buy it because it wasn't brand new any more and I was kind of mad about it. His mistake was he never called me to tell me it was in. He did, however, order a different engine that was in stock at MTH and gave me the pre-order price -- so the love was still there and I continue to buy from him because they're a great shop.
I do like pre-ordering with the the online sellers like Mr. Muffins or Trainworld because they will exchange emails to confirm or actually have a check out receipt for pre-orders. This eliminates that question, "Did he or didn't he remember to write that down", and it also confirms the pre-order price in writing.
All of my prior pre-orders have been from 3rd Rail / GGD and I've been happy with all of them. I have a current pre-order on a Lionel item, but it's a switcher, with a simple color scheme. Aside from the aforementioned importer, I'd be hard pressed to commit over $1K to any pre-order item, as, sooner or later, it will show up on the resale market and, by then, its foibles will be known.
About five years ago, I bought a Lionel train set - the Southern Pacific Black Widow FT one. I expected it to have command control and features generally competitive with MTH. I was so disappointed I haven’t ever bought another modern Lionel product.
and I’ve preordered twice and never got what I preordered.
I haven’t sworn off either though. Maybe someday.
@Mark Holmgren 110217 posted:About five years ago, I bought a Lionel train set - the Southern Pacific Black Widow FT one. I expected it to have command control and features generally competitive with MTH. I was so disappointed I haven’t ever bought another modern Lionel product.
and I’ve preordered twice and never got what I preordered.
I haven’t sworn off either though. Maybe someday.
Was the set cataloged with TMCC?
@NYC 428 posted:No excuse just the facts, three rail "O" will never be up to the standards of HO.
HO doesn't have a "standard", bub. It's a scale.
I try to like all model trains.....but some people have an.....attitude.
There's just as much junk in HO as there is in practically every scale.
Your quite correct HO is a scale, however, it has quite a number of standards, you may to check out below.
And if anyone has an attitude it's you BUB!
NMRA Standards and Recommended Practices
@NYC 428 posted:HO doesn't have a "standard", bub. It's a scale.
I try to like all model trains.....but some people have an.....attitude.
There's just as much junk in HO as there is in practically every scale.
Your quite correct HO is a scale, however, it has quite a number of standards, you may to check out below.
And if anyone has an attitude it's you BUB!
NMRA Standards and Recommended Practices
So....everyone who buys HO scale trains has an NMRA layout?
"So....everyone who buys HO scale trains has an NMRA layout?"
"HO doesn't have a "standard"
How the end user builds there layout is up to them. However, the manufactures of HO scale equipment follow the NMRA standards pertaining to HO.
Your comment "HO doesn't have a standard" is incorrect.
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" so sad 
Well back to the original topic.
I only pre-ordered one item and that was the 18005 in 1991. I resold it before I took delivery. Now days it's just to easy and cheap to pick things up on the secondary market. I must add there has never been a train that I just had to have. I understand how that would significantly change the situation.
I can also understand the frustration of ordering X and getting Y or having problems right out of the box. That's another reason I want to see it operate in person before buying it (one of my justifications for "needing" to go to York.)
@Madockawando posted:Was the set cataloged with TMCC?
No. I was new to the hobby and didn’t know anything. I had bought an MTH starter set and it had PS3.0 and assumed Lionel would be the equivalent. I had forgotten about the old forward/neutral/reverse thing from the ‘70s (to me) and was shocked the train still ran that way when the MTH one was so much more sophisticated.
