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Inside Amtrak’s Dying Long-Distance Trains from the WSJ

Amtrak’s proposals for altering or eliminating some of its long-distance train routes, in favor of more frequent service where the population is growing, is facing opposition among those who fear rural America would suffer. WSJ’s Jason Bellini reports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...=1&v=q-jP4vh3z_A

This video is from the Wall Street Journal’s YouTube Channel & it was published on July, 16, 2019 and as of today’s date it has 401,606 views. 

I feel that this video is a must watch for all Amtrak Passengers & Rail-fans. It tells the complete Amtrak story and issues facing Amtrak in seven minutes. We take the Amtrak several times a year, Detroit to Chicago and Detroit to Grand Junction, Colorado.  This video points out the biggest issue facing Amtrak, sharing the rails with freight trains.

Do you ride the Amtrak & what are your viewpoints ? • Please no political comments….. as stated in the OGR rule book……..

Take care: Gary 🚂

Last edited by trainroomgary
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I have been a long time advocate for better long and short distance services.   I also use the trains and help others to use Amtrak as well.  Amtrak provides a regular alternative to airline passengers stranded due to weather cancellations etc.  

One point that is incorrect, the Northeast corridor is only profitable if you separate out the costs of maintaining and paying for right of way, etc.  If you take all true costs, the long distance trains lose less money.  The true profits are the benefits to our communities, populations, and economic growth.

The benefits to our country outweigh the subsidy and are shown to return more in economic benefit to the communities served.  

 

Last edited by VistaDomeScott

My last long distance trip was on the California Zephyr from Oakland, CA to Chicago in 2006.  The train was about 6 hours late arriving in Chicago mostly due to freight train delays.  I know this because one of the passenger had a scanner and could listen to the dispatcher talking to train engineers.  We sat on many siding waiting for a freight to clear.  

I was amazed at how many people traveled between rural towns or boarded at small towns to go to Chicago.  The train definitely provided service to places that had no airline connections.  The train also carried many passengers who did not like to fly.  I met one Amtrak junky who seemed to spend his life traveling by train.  He had some 50,000 Amtrak miles and seemed to have been on every long distance train several times.  

The food on this trip was very good and the cheese cake was the best that I have ever had anywhere.  

I will be taking the Coast Starlight from Portland to Oakland in about a month.  I am looking forward to the trip and seeing how Amtrak long distance has changed since 2006.

I hope that Amtrak can find a balance between long distance trains and its corridors.  

NH Joe

 

Clarence Siman posted:

If the Government is going to subsidize Amtrak, then consider the feasibility of using abandoned or embargoed rail lines in the rural areas. Have a totally dedicated Amtrak line, or perhaps start a Trails to Rails campaign. Yes I know that the lines will have to be totally rebuilt, but at least Amtrak won't have to share the lines with freight.

That idea is great if we had truly adequate funding.  But  even with the current historic situation with bipartisan support for Amtrak, its such an annual political battle to win just keeping what we have.  I think the New York, Michigan, and Illinois model of adding track and upgrading tracks so that both Amtrak and the freight railroads benefit is our best hope.  

We took a cross-country trip on Amtrak twenty years ago and it was a bargain with their All Aboard America fares, about $1600 for family of four.  But that was a long time ago.

Since then my wife & I have taken several trips to Montreal, to Atlanta, to Savannah.  Fares have risen and service has diminished but it's still preferable herding cattle on a metal tube (air transport).

Northeast Corridor has been described as profitable but the NEC needs $42B (with a big B) in infrastructure updates.  So is it really profitable or are they stealing from the "money losing" long-distance trains? 

The gentleman in the video (sorry I forgot his name) suggests "value" to smaller cities and towns is paramount to "profit" for the lesser traveled lines.  I tend to agree. 

Scott has already addressed the “lie” that the Northeast Corridor is profitable so; enough said in that regard.

The hurdle to expanding service on Amtrak’s new regional corridors will be the Class 1’s.  Will they be receptive to hosting additional trains and at what cost for upgrading their infrastructure to accommodate the additional frequencies.

The video notes Atlanta - Macon; Atlanta - Charlotte; Atlanta - Birmingham; and Atlanta - Chattanooga.  NS is already hosting the Crescent over the Charlotte - Atlanta - Birmingham corridor and rarely can operate that one train on time.  What is the likelihood that adding trains in this corridor would experience any better handling?  With the advent of  PSR induced 12,000 - 14,000 foot trains operating through single track territory where sidings generally are 10-12,000 feet; it isn’t difficult to guess which train will take siding so a “land barge” can slog by.  (Still not sure; check what happens with Via’s Canadian on its CN route between Toronto and Vancouver.)

While additional frequencies would be ideal; I suspect the cost to make that happen would far exceed the cost to simply continue operating the existing long distance trains.

Curt

I think that it is unfair to lump infrastructure updates as a reason why a route is "unprofitable."  Considering that the infrastructure that needs updating is over 100 years old, any route that has such old infrastructure would be expensive to update.  If the infrastructure on the NEC is not going to be updated then you might as well shut the operation down, since not being able to access Manhattan directly will kill the NEC.  Nobody is going to go on Amtrak to Newark, transfer to PATH, transfer to the subway, to transfer to Amtrak at Grand Central to continue to Boston.

Stuart

 

Last edited by Stuart

When the railroads operated their own passenger trains, and sometimes other railroads' passenger trains, sharing the rails with freight trains did not seem to be that big of an issue--passenger trains usually operated on time and freight trains still made it to their destinations.  Some differences now are that their are far fewer passenger trains and Amtrak (National Railroad Passenger Corporation) and the freight railroads are different "companies."  The issue seems to be lack of cooperation between Amtrak and the host railroads.  If it could be done then, surely it can be done now.  I think incentivizing on-time performance worked better in the past than litigation. 

In the last 4 years I have traveled Amtrak first class across the country 7 times, the SW chief, The empire builder, the Zephyr, The lake Shore Boston to Chicago, & every winter on the Meteor NY to Miami. I have spent a lot of money taking Amtrak. I love the trains, & hope they never get discontinued. Just my 2 cents. That story in the WS Journal is old news.

Farmer_Bill posted:

Stuart, do you think it's fair to split up the $42B NEC costs and allocate on per mile basis across the long distance routes?   That's my understanding of their current accounting practice.  

Do the freight railroads allocate their infrastructure costs over their entire systems?  As far as I'm concerned infrastructure costs should be born by the entire system, not just the part of the system that needs it at the time. Right now it's the NEC, next time Raton Pass. 

Stuart

 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The trains just have to be a priority as a mode of transportation like they are in Europe and the Far East.  Somehow they manage to run trains on time in those locations.

 

 

 

Might be because they have the population density?  The Empire Builder runs through North Dakota, with a population of 760,00.  Montana barely has a million. 

Kent in SD

Farmer_Bill posted:

Stuart (don't mean to pick on you by the way), when there were financial concerns over the SW Chief route those costs were not spread across the system, rather they were used to "justify" bus transfers instead of through trains which would have effectively crippled the line.  Fortunately saner heads prevailed, at least for a time. 

Framer Bill,

No problem.  Friendly debate is good for everyone.  I don't claim that what I say is correct, just my opinion.  If I'm wrong I like to know about it.

Stuart

 

I'm not a big fan of government subsidies for any industry.  However, passenger trains have historically been treated completely different from our other modes of transportation -- specifically interstate highways and airlines.  It's time we level the playing field and allow Amtrak to soar like our airports and highways, heavily funded by big brother.  If you don't agree, then we ought to cut back on government support for roads and airways and privatize it all and let the best modes of transportation survive.  Perhaps this latter environment would make a hop on a long distance train a much better experience than the alternatives.

Rather than try to rebuild defunct lines into dedicated passenger routes, wouldn't it be cheaper to double or triple track in areas where freight bottlenecks happen?  The defunct lines are defunct for a reason.  Usually(not always) freight goes to the same places people go.  So recreating the NYO&W or the Lehigh Valley might not be the way to go.  But a third dedicated track between Albany and Chicago...

Jon

Interesting story- thanks for posting it Gary.

I've traveled the NE corridor on business and we've taken the Auto-train many times. The NE corridor, while profitable, needs major work. The track in many areas is not adequate for the Acela and causes the train to run slower than max speed. The work that Amtrak needs to do in NY is in the tens of billions. Tunnels on both sides of Manhattan were all flooded with salt water in Sandy. They all need to be completely re-built. Amtrak owns these assets (including Penn station), and is in a constant battle with the LIRR, NJ Transit, PATH, over making the necessary repairs. I will give them credit for updating many of the tracks and switches in Penn Station (shown in the video).

The Auto-train is a unique niche in Amtrak's service that we find to be a great alternative to driving I-95 from NY to Florida. Amtrak may want to think about expanding this service onto other routes as a way to draw more business. The service has been good over the almost 20 years we have ridden,  but the quality has slipped as they try to cut costs. We have been lucky and most trains have run on or close to schedule. We have heard the nightmare stories from other riders of being stuck behind a dead CSX freight for hours and hours though. Waiting for our car to be unloaded has been the biggest cause of our delays.

I agree that Amtrak would benefit from a dedicated ROW in many areas. Especially when you consider how bumpy the ride is on freight trackage. A full second or third track along existing ROW's would probably be the most cost effective solution. If Amtrak went to a hub and spoke model like the airlines do then they may be able to turn a profit. The example shown of the Atlanta/ deep south would be a good start. Run one or two trains a day to the surrounding cities and use Atlanta as a hub.

Finally- unless rail travel is embraced like it is in most other parts of the world I fear it will fade into history just like steam engines did.

Bob

We take the NE Corridor Amtrak train from Philadelphia to Boston 3 times a year. They are not affected by freight trains, and the only delays have been caused by track work, as well as 2 engine breakdowns over the years. We take this train because flying such a short distance is not worth the airport BS. I hate to drive over 2 hours.

We have taken the Crescent to New Orleans, the Silver Meteor to Florida, and the Sunset Limited to Arizona. This was just for the "fun" of riding the rails. We've flown home. However, these trains ARE affected by freight traffic, not so much on the Florida run, but VERY much on the Crescent. I did a Nov '18 to April '19 study of Crescent arrivals, and 2 1/2 hours late was "normal". We felt lucky that ours was only 1 1/2 hours late (a few times the Crescent was up to 10 hours late). It was "on time" only on Christmas Eve and Christmas day, probably due to no freight. On these "overnight" trains, my wife and I (both in our mid-70s) each have our own roomette. We've had no complaints about the trains or the service.

I am wondering if the the long distance trains are full or nearly full.  Perhaps someone who has taken the Crescent, SW Chief, Empire Builder, etc., recently could provide their impression.  It seems to me that if the trains are full they are providing an essential service even if they lose money.

However, if these trains are running empty then they should probably be eliminated.   

Roads, airports, river and costal travel, and all highways are heavily subsidized by the government.  Some service to rural airports is subsidized to $200 per ticket.  

NH Joe

New Haven Joe posted:

I am wondering if the the long distance trains are full or nearly full.  Perhaps someone who has taken the Crescent, SW Chief, Empire Builder, etc., recently could provide their impression.

I think "impressions" should be avoided. Not everyone traveling on these "long distance" trains are traveling long distance. The main exception is the Auto Train. First-off, it makes no stops along the way. Second, you can count the rail cars going past the live-cam cameras at Ashland, VA. Each rail car carries 10 autos (5 above 5). 300 autos (30 rail cars) is maximum. Most Auto Trains I have seen are made up of 28-30 rail cars, which makes them full-up. There is one Auto-Train north and one south each day.

There are 2 regular Florida trains going both north and south each day. The Silver Meteor takes about 26 hours to get to Miami from NYC, and has a dining car as well as a buffet. The Silver Star takes 4 hours longer because it visits the gulf coast on its way to Miami. It does not have a dining car, just a buffet. It also costs less.

The Crescent runs every day. The Sunset Limited 3 days a week.

One interesting thing we found out...your vacation starts the minute you arrive at the train station. With flying, your aggravation starts the minute you enter the airport.

I think the freight railroads in this county are going the wrong direction.  Instead of all these massive trains everywhere, fast and short would be better in some places.  Take some spine cars.  Put highs speed trucks on them.  For fast freight out of Houston in the TX Triangle, that might work.  Houston is the closest US deep water Gulf port to the Panama Canal.  Maybe combine this with a passenger train.  Have a fair cost/profit split.  At least try it.  Before Amazon buys a western and eastern road, and does it itself.

Last edited by Dominic Mazoch

It's pretty hard to talk about Amtrak without getting political, but I'll try. We are dealing with two competing views here. One view is that railroad passenger service must be profitable to be worth while. The other view is that it is a public service that the government provides, regardless of profitability.

We are currently in a business dominated cycle, and the WSJ video expresses that, but the former mayor of Meridian rebutted that rather eloquently.

Why does high speed rail work in China, and not in the US, even though both countries are similar in land area? The reasons are very simple, population density, and political will. In China, when the president says we are going to do something it happens. There's no argument or debate. At right around three times the population of the US, they have the density, but they aren't even in it for the money. They are in it for the public good.

The US is the exact opposite. Everything is about the money. There is no money in serving empty spaces. Our rail system is very much like our health care system, a cobbled together patchwork made from competing interests. If the bean counters ultimately had their way, the only rail passenger service this country would have, would be the NEC.

As imperfect as the US is, I don't think most of us would like living in China. Just look at what is happening in Hong Kong.

I love Amtrak, always have, but I don't ride it anymore, for a couple reasons. It doesn't go where I want to go, and it doesn't get there when I want to get there. I get in my car, and I set the schedule and the stops. In a couple weeks I'm going to North Platte, Nebraska.  Amtrak can't get me there. Went to Duluth last weekend for the Big Boy, no passenger service there. Vegas? Not anymore. I've taken numerous trips to Chicago over the last ten years, Amtrak is not the way to go. The schedule is horrible, even if they are on time. It's a lot cheaper to drive, than buy two tickets, and not have a car when I get there.

The freight railroads have wanted to rid themselves of the passenger business since the 60's, when they realized it wasn't profitable anymore due to planes and automobiles. They partially got their wish when the NRPC AKA Amtrak was formed in 1971. If you were to compare the Amtrak map from 1971, with the map of today, you would see just how many routes have vanished. In a way this latest effort is just a continuation of that practice. They are trying to eliminate the most stubborn routes.

I'm really torn on this. As a railfan I never want the passenger trains to go away, but as a matter of practicality, they are much like zombies of the rails. Do we continue to settle for mediocrity or throw up our hands and quit?

About a month ago, I posted (on the Real trains OGR forum) about my family's experience riding the high speed Italian trains - in part to note that Italy is catching up with some of the European high speed rail leaders, like France, Germany, and Spain (to name but three) and to also note the increasingly interconnected high speed rail across Europe. There's a 1400 mile corridor from Berlin to Palermo, for example. Obviously, there's been a massive investment in the infrastructure needed to support HSR - most (as far as I know) from the various governments involved.  One private rail company in Italy, Italo, has taken advantage of that investment and is now offering competition to Trenitalia (government owned).  Presumably Italo pays something toward those infrastructure costs.

The obvious question is why the US is unable (more likely, unwilling) to see HSR as a necessary part of the the future - and greener - transportation infrastructure.  Here's a recent, interesting discussion of some of this - its somewhat California-centric (where the proposal for HSR between the SF Bay Area and LA has been a huge political football).  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qaf6baEu0_w 

The claim is often made (opponents to HSR in CA have used this argument as well) that HSR is only successful in densely populated corridors, but the massive amount of HSR developed in China in the past decade (something like 19,000 miles) suggests that isn't necessary - what is necessary is the political will (and vision) and, in the end, government involvement.  From a subsidies point of view, rail is the poor step-child to air and highways (in terms of moving people).

richs09 posted:

About a month ago, I posted (on the Real trains OGR forum) about my family's experience riding the high speed Italian trains - in part to note that Italy is catching up with some of the European high speed rail leaders, like France, Germany, and Spain (to name but three) and to also note the increasingly interconnected high speed rail across Europe. There's a 1400 mile corridor from Berlin to Palermo, for example. Obviously, there's been a massive investment in the infrastructure needed to support HSR - most (as far as I know) from the various governments involved.  One private rail company in Italy, Italo, has taken advantage of that investment and is now offering competition to Trenitalia (government owned).  Presumably Italo pays something toward those infrastructure costs.

The obvious question is why the US is unable (more likely, unwilling) to see HSR as a necessary part of the the future - and greener - transportation infrastructure.  Here's a recent, interesting discussion of some of this - its somewhat California-centric (where the proposal for HSR between the SF Bay Area and LA has been a huge political football).  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qaf6baEu0_w 

The claim is often made (opponents to HSR in CA have used this argument as well) that HSR is only successful in densely populated corridors, but the massive amount of HSR developed in China in the past decade (something like 19,000 miles) suggests that isn't necessary - what is necessary is the political will (and vision) and, in the end, government involvement.  From a subsidies point of view, rail is the poor step-child to air and highways (in terms of moving people).

Once again, population density in Europe is sufficient and distances are manageable, to the point where trains can compete with planes and surpass cars. The countries are small, France being about the size of Texas, and they only get smaller from there. Then each country forms it's own high speed network, and before you know it, you have a network that spans the continent.

Another hurdle for the US is that HSR needs a dedicated right of way. No sharing tracks with freight. All new infrastructure. I'll just take a guess at $2,000,000 per mile, how many would you like? How many would we need?

The bottom line is no right minded business person would ever want to get involved, so that just leaves the government. That doesn't seem to be going anywhere fast. Sad to say, but China succeeds, where we fail. Get used to hearing that. The writing is on the wall. 

 

One of my kids lives in Europe (on the continent). We’ve had the passenger trains discussion many times, i.e., why do they thrive there and not so much here. Every time the answer is the same: “culture.”

Certainly not discounting economics, politics, and geography or any of the other well thought out comments above. Just thought I’d throw this into the discussion.

Elliot -  Just to riff a bit on your going to North Platte, NE - indeed, you can't get there by train anymore.  Back in the day (well, in my days growing up in NE), Union Pacific ran their "City of..." trains through central NE on their main corridor, with stops in North Platte (always seemed to be in the middle of the night, at least on the westbound City of Portland).  Now, the only train service is the CA Zephyr, which uses the BNSF trackage along the southern part of NE.

Curious, I took a look at commercial air travel into NE - turns out there are 9 airports with commercial air service (including North Platte) - of which seven get subsidies from something called the Essential Air Service program, run out of the US DoT (Omaha and Lincoln are the exceptions - as you might expect).  Here's a brief excerpt from wikipedia (here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_Air_Service):

"The United States Department of Transportation (USDOT) subsidizes airlines to serve communities across the country that otherwise would not receive scheduled air service.  As of June 1, 2015, 159 communities in the US received EAS subsidies, of which 44 were in Alaska, two were in Hawaii, and one community in Puerto Rico. The decision as to what degree of subsidized service a community requires is made based on identifying a specific hub for the community and from there determining the number of trips, seats, and type of aircraft that are necessary to serve that hub."

Apparently, these subsidies range from around $10 per passenger to almost $1000 per passenger (across the EAS program, not just for flights into NE).  I'm not complaining about the EAS program so much as to further argue that passenger transport is not a level, unsubsidized playing field - except for Amtrak.  You could go further and argue that its not just unlevel, but its a rigged playing field - another argument for another time...

 

Culture may be a factor for the Europeans, but it's really a factor for the Chinese. The eastern mindset is more about the greater good and less about the individual. I recently watched Richard Engle On Assignment, where the topic was China. The stuff they are doing over there is both amazing and scary. 

It almost seems that the US is Dr Frankenstein, and China is the monster.

There was a reason that the " for profit" train companies stopped passenger service.  Call it culture, obsolescence, competiton for transportation $, or common sense.  They wanted to stay in business.

Unlike the post office, FCC, FDA, FBI, Armed Forces, etc., it is a subsidy that is not desired or needed by anywhere near the majority of Americans (except OGR).

If it was, it could survive on it's profits.  We dont build toll roads to nowhere in Western Texas cause it's not profitable.

I don't want to subsidize a phone land line for AT&T in every house just because it used to be that way.  I also have no desire to live in Europe,  China,  Canada or South America. 

As terrible as things are in the USA, everybody wants to come here and no one seems to be leaving .  Even the Hollywood blow hards that promised to move after the last election are still here. 

America must be doing something right with the resources, culture and the location it has.  In spite of the media's opinion, we just don't have enough money to buy everything for everybody.

Elliot makes a lot of valuable points, and one of the problems we have in the US is historically we have been really bad at doing things like planning and deciding the kind of things we are facing with rail travel, you mention planning and you get a lot of people coming out of the woodwork crying about various ism's, it is a plot, etc. What happens is we then often end up doing things ad hoc when the stuff hits the fan, we do crisis management rather than preventing it (in many ways, it is a direct parallel to health care and how we deal with it).  One of the reasons for planning, in this case on a national scale, is to allow it to be analyzed across the board and to try to take out the tunnel vision that often cripples things with local interest or worse.  A discussion about Amtrak has to be done on a national basis, on what is good for the country, as well as what is good for areas. One of the things that requires is having someone do an analysis who doesn't have a vested interest, the way for example congressional committees do, or having it done by a finance type who thinks only in dollars and cents. I'll give you examples of this, and why it causes so many problems, when it comes to trains:

1. Those who argue if rail service had value, it would pay for itself, the way 'other industries do'. Sounds rational to those who argue that, or who say "why should I pay for what others use?". On the other hand, there are a lot of businesses out there operating where they don't pay for themselves, it is not exactly new business operations.  Analysis shows Government subsidizes the airlines and roads/trucking industry, shippers use ports run by governmental agencies often at prices cheaper than cost, industries operating where federal dams provide power (the TVA districts, including the auto transplants in Kentucky and Tennessee, manufacturing in the pacific northwest), where they get the power at cost, compared to triple those rates from private power.  So those subsidies to the trucking industry mean things get delivered cheaper than they otherwise would; cheap power creates jobs across a region that before TVA had relatively few...so arguing that about trains is nothing more than self interest

2. Likewise, when making spending decisions, you cannot simply look at the cost versus revenue, especially with infrastructure like this. If the NE corridor needs 42 billion in capital spending, analysis requires saying what is the cost if I don't do this?Not only opportunity cost in the possibility of more travel on the NE, if it runs faster with fewer delays, but also declines if the service starts to deteriorate....then, too, if the NE corridor isn't fixed, what happens to already crowded air corridors and roads? How much would we need to spend to fix roads, how much money will be lost to delays for extra traffic on roads, for crowded airlines, cost of upgrading flight systems to handle more traffic, etc? There are costs to doing/not doing things, and they need to be accounted for. 

3.Then too there are what is known as social costs, and they are harder to discern. For example, what happens to the small towns that lose rail service? Does it have no impact, or does it help cause the further decline of a town, the perception that it is dead (and obviously, I am asking that as a question, not as an answer).  How will people who can't drive long distances feel, especially if there is no local airport? And if it doesn't matter, then why as a matter of policy do we subsidize flying into airports in relatively lightly traveller rural areas, why not have them drive to the nearest airport in a more populated area? 

The reason that China spent money of trains, including high speed trains, is based on need. China's manufacturing is generally located in certain areas, near the coastal region, around some of the bigger cities, and they have been relying on labor that comes from elsewhere in the  country. At certain times of the year, especially Chinese New Year, they have large mass migrations of people, and need the trains to handle that. Too, China also I suspect learned lessons from other places, like Europe and yes, the US, and looked at the costs of people travelling by car, looked at airline congestion, and I believe they decided that trains helped create a balanced approach. For one thing, China doesn't have the penetration of the car we do, and while they have built a lot of roads and highways, a lot of people don't have cars..so they have a need.

Europe made a decision post world war II when it came to travel, and they decided to emphasize the trains over individual travel in cars. Given how crowded Europe can be, given the cost of building and maintaining roads, and also how dependant they are on importing oil and gas, they decided it made more sense to favor trains, while also for example making it expensive to drive cars (the registration fees are high, and gas taxes make gasoline 8 or 9 bucks a gallon last I checked). 

The US obviously is unique, and we have unique problems, too. China is one country and they don't have quite the balance between central government and regions, as someone pointed out, the US because of our dual system of federal government and local government, it can be hard to do the kind of policy we are talking about. You can have where a state government doesn't care about rail travel, actively opposes it, while you have local congressmen who gets upset when Amtrak cancels service in his/her area *shrug*. 

In the end questions like the ones I posed need to be answered, looking at all the factors when it comes to rail travel and see what conclusions can be drawn from that, what needs investment, what makes sense, what doesn't, which isn't being done today. Whether it is Amtrak themselves,  elected officials, rail fans, Joe Public, you name it, my view of it is that they all come into this with bias and their 'answers' are framed that way, whether it is the person resentful of 'paying for those people to use trains' (leaving out their own hand in the till), or the congressman with one hand wanting to slash government spending on Amtrak saying 'the government shouldn't be in the rail business' while pushing for subsidies for businesses they care about, or infrastructure for their area, etc. Almost everyone agrees, if with varying views, that the NE corridor makes sense (whether they think it should be run privately or by the government, subsidized but run privately, how much should be spent), but we need an overall picture to make the real decisions, and that is one thing I doubt we will see. 

A lot of good info and thoughts presented.

I really wonder about the value of "high speed" rail in the US. Would there be a giant leap in travel between NYC and Florida if the trip went from 26 hours to 12? NYC to Miami is only 3 hours by air, and equal to or less cost than rail. Certainly all rail travel in other lands is not "high speed". I've only traveled on "regular speed" trains in Italy, Germany, and Poland. Maybe the average traveler in the US is more able to afford flying compared to people in other countries.

The size of our country is really, really BIG. My mother-in-law used to rent rooms to young people from England so they could work for the summer at beach resorts in southern Delaware. It was common for them to talk about wanting to spend a day off in Florida, or a weekend in Hollywood, CA.

Think about the near term future (say 20-30 years).  Does the prospect of inexpensive solar, improved batteries and robotic electric vehicles (with a couple of beds) seem more or less attractive to use existing infrastructure (roads) or spending hundreds of billions of dollars doing high speed rail?  Technology may make some or all of these issues moot.  High speed rail may only make sense for certain areas of the country in any case.  The days of passenger rail service of any sort to rural areas is permanently over is my guess.

 

If the greedy airlines are dragging doctors off of oversold flights (and pretty much treat everyone else like cattle), heaven knows that America needs an alternative.  I would like to see Amtrak get a real budget, and reinvest in its long-distance trains, perhaps even add some that have been discontinued since 1970.  The Class 1s shouldn't complain too loudly--Amtrak relieved them of their responsibility to carry passengers, that was implicit in their original charters.  I'm still some years away from retirement.  But if I had more free time to travel, I would NEVER buy an airline ticket if I had a choice!

Last edited by Ted S
Joe Hohmann posted:

A lot of good info and thoughts presented.

I really wonder about the value of "high speed" rail in the US. Would there be a giant leap in travel between NYC and Florida if the trip went from 26 hours to 12? NYC to Miami is only 3 hours by air, and equal to or less cost than rail. Certainly all rail travel in other lands is not "high speed". I've only traveled on "regular speed" trains in Italy, Germany, and Poland. Maybe the average traveler in the US is more able to afford flying compared to people in other countries.

The size of our country is really, really BIG. My mother-in-law used to rent rooms to young people from England so they could work for the summer at beach resorts in southern Delaware. It was common for them to talk about wanting to spend a day off in Florida, or a weekend in Hollywood, CA.

Clearly, the foreigners did not grasp the distances involved, especially when they come from a much smaller country. Either that, or they were never planning on taking the train in the first place.

We love our trains because they are nostalgic, and a big part of this country's history. From a practical stand point though, they are obsolete. We got to the moon 50 years ago because Kennedy basically threw down the gauntlet, and NASA and the rest of the nation picked it up. Unfortunately, HSR isn't as "sexy" as being the first man on the moon. That would be Mars, not Miami. The problem is there's really nothing of value, except knowledge of the universe, on Mars. We have plenty of more pressing issues here on Earth.

Without authoritarian rule, the Chinese model of HSR won't work here in the US. Maybe the European model could be deployed here, where each state or small group of states would create a system that works for them. Start with regional systems, not a national system, and slowly build outward from there. This way we are only trying to cover practical distances.

Texas would be a great place to start, because they have a lot of large cities. A Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, Houston triangle would make sense, distances that are too short to fly, but better than driving Then expand out from there, Oklahoma City, New Orleans, El Paso. And so it begins, because we are starting from scratch.

Bigkid -- I very much agree with your list of questions and your thoughts on the same.  I would add a fourth category, which is environmental - both in terms of the environmental impacts of the various transport modes (an analysis likely to be corridor-dependent) and in terms of being able to accommodate a greener future.  For the latter, it certainly appears that electricity is going to be the energy form of choice for the intermediate future - as long as the electricity generation is green (or can become so).  Here in CA, we face the conundrum of having too much PV-generated energy in the summer - even though demand goes way up with the need for air conditioning, etc.  What we really need is a means of storage that is highly efficient, grid-scale and absolutely reliable (my sense is that isn't too big an ask... but its not an easy problem).

A couple of thoughts on the points you make - our government has always been in the business of subsidizing 'things' that are thought to have some 'societal benefit'  (and of course, a lot of things whose only benefit was -- uhhh - limited to just a few members of society...).  The TVA - and its western US counterpart, BPA, not to mention REA (rural electrification - not railway express) - are prime examples of that - for the reasons you state (there were, of course, a few individuals who also profited ...).  The interstate highway system is largely paid for by the US gummint - and it started with essentially a dual purpose - the civilian population and economy and national defense -- the latter was of concern (in 1955) because it was still thought that evacuation of cities was possible in the event of an "atomic attack".  It turns out, a third purpose was also at play according to Eisenhower's biographer (Ambrose) - a public works program that would employ a lot of people (gee, spending on infrastructure, what a novel thought).

One of the two youtube videos - either the one from the Wall Street Journal or the one from CNBC - noted that many passengers on otherwise long distance trains aren't riding the whole way (I think the example was the Crescent from DC to NO) - so there is a regional transportation benefit to having improved rail corridors.

The comment about subsidizing air service - my example was looking to see what air service is currently available in my home state of NE -- all seven of the airports with some subsidized service are west of Omaha and Lincoln - that's about 400 miles of territory.  Where I went to high school in western NE, it was 250 miles to Denver and about the same to Omaha.  So if one eliminates subsidized air service (even though its basically a couple of flights a day for most of those seven airports), that's a fur piece to go to get to an airplane...

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